Bear Kills Two...


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Keith
October 7, 2003, 04:37 PM
A first for this particular park...


Bear suspected of killing two people in Katmai National Park
Bodies of man and woman from California found by pilot

The Associated Press

(Published: October 7, 2003)


KING SALMON -- A man and a woman were fatally mauled in a bear attack in Katmai National Park and Preserve - the first known bear killings in the 4.7-million-acre park, National Park Service officials said Tuesday.

The bodies were found near Kaflia Bay on Monday when a pilot with Andrew Airways arrived to pick them up and take them to Kodiak, Alaska State Troopers said. The park is on the Alaska Peninsula.

The pilot saw a bear, possibly on top of a body, in the camp and contacted the Park Service in King Salmon and troopers in Kodiak.

Park rangers encountered an aggressive bear when they arrived at the campsite and killed it. Investigators then found human remains buried by a bear near the campsite, which was in a brushy area with poor visibility.

No weapons were found at the scene, Park Service spokeswoman Jane Tranel said.

The victims, believed to be in their late 30s to early 40s, were from Malibu, Calif. Their identities are being withheld pending notification of relatives.

The remains and the entire campsite were packed out Monday and transported to Kodiak on the Andrew Airways flight.

As the plane was being loaded, another aggressive bear approached and was killed by park rangers and troopers.

The bodies were flown to the state medical examiner's office for autopsy.

Dean Andrew, owner of Andrew Airways, said the pilot was too upset to comment. The company had been flying the man out to Katmai for 13 years and the woman for the last couple of years. Andrew said the man was an experienced outdoorsman.

"We were all good friends with him," he said. "We haven't had time to deal with it."

The pair were photographing and watching bears at the Kaflia Bay lakes, usually not frequented by visitors, according to Park Service spokesman John Quinley. He said bears are attracted to the area by a late run of salmon passing through lakes.

Other areas along the Katmai coast are popular destinations for watching bears.

In the mid-1980s, a brown bear mauled the body of a visitor who drowned, but this week's attacks are the first known bear killings in the park, Quinley said.

Rangers were returning to the site Tuesday.

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DorGunR
October 7, 2003, 04:46 PM
No weapons were found at the scene, Park Service spokeswoman Jane Tranel said.

Strange......going into bear country unarmed.:(

Dr.Rob
October 7, 2003, 04:49 PM
He was from California...

On the other hand he's been going up there for 13 years.

Problem with a single car accident is.. well no-one is left to say what happpened. Hope they got the RIGHT bear.

Keith
October 7, 2003, 04:54 PM
The weird thing is, I think I know who this guy is...

If it is who I think it is, I'm not surprised this happened. More later when I learn some details!

Kaflia bay is about 40 miles west of here. And the pilot who brought them back flies out of the lake across the street from my house.

Keith

TallPine
October 7, 2003, 04:58 PM
This can't have happened.

Everyone knows bear attacks are just figments of an overactive imagination.

They should have taken some pixie dust with them to ward off the bears.

:rolleyes:


PS: I like to carry my pixie dust in little brass containers ;)

Keith
October 7, 2003, 05:00 PM
Just for some reference. Katmai is over 4 million acres and you can't get there except by plane or boat. There are no roads, no towns, no nothing. A couple of thousand people a year go in there and almost all of them go to one place in the park - McNeil River falls where they maintain a bear viewing site. They fly people in there to stand on a platform and take pictures of the bears, and then they fly them out.
The other 99.9% of the park is almost never visited because you can't get there without dropping thousands of dollars in air charter fares. No people - no bear maulings...

Edited to add: That's Brooks River Falls - not McNeil river...

Keith

Bigjake
October 7, 2003, 05:01 PM
well, at least they are moraly superior than if they had broken the law and carried a good sturdy 45-70 into the park..:uhoh:

TallPine
October 7, 2003, 05:07 PM
Bear #1: "Burp ..." :barf:

Bear #2: "You can't keep a good man down"

Keith
October 7, 2003, 05:14 PM
Yup! I just spoke to someone who is involved and it IS who I thought it was... I'm not surprised this happened because he was really pushing his luck!

I won't post the name because I'm sure family members haven't been notified as yet.

I'll post some details tomorrow, or later today if the name is released by the press.

Keith

Bill Hook
October 7, 2003, 05:16 PM
Just ask Roy Horn how predictable WILD animals are. Same goes for domesticed animals and, for that matter, humans.

Mike Irwin
October 7, 2003, 05:45 PM
Always interesting what happens when man finds out that he's not always at the top of the food chain...

El Tejon
October 7, 2003, 06:12 PM
Tall, darn you, stealing my line.:D I thought my Vulcan mind meld would put an end to these bear threads. Darn, bears, never listen.

Mike, never had that problem. I kill them.

It's . . . a . . . wild . . . animal; kill it!!! Silly, druids, maulings are for magic unicorns. :D

longtom4570
October 7, 2003, 06:20 PM
were there any bells?:evil:

Rebel Gunman HK
October 7, 2003, 06:29 PM
Common sense would tell you to bring something to defend yourself with. Are these people suicidal?

gunsmith
October 7, 2003, 06:32 PM
didn't they have any whistles or pots and pans to bang together?:evil:

Is it true you are not permitted to bring guns to this place?:confused:

Keith
October 7, 2003, 06:33 PM
Hey now - this is a tragedy! Two people have been killed and partially eaten. Families are waiting for positive identification of the bodies. There's nothing funny about this.

This guy is very well known and many of you are going to recognize this individual when the names are released - think Discovery Channel...

Keith

Keith
October 7, 2003, 06:47 PM
The deal is; no. You can't bring guns into this particular section of the park.

This individual goes in every summer when the bears are gorging on salmon, and are fat and happy in consequence. Bears are pretty easy to get along with when they are eating 100 pounds of salmon a day.
And he has names for the different bears and gets close to them for dramatic footage. He has followed individual bears year after year as they grew up and had cubs of their own. They know him and tolerate him. And he waxes rhapsodic about how nice the bears are, and that you shouldn't fear them because they would never hurt a human.

And I always watch this footage and annoy everyone by commenting on how he'd be dead if he tried that in the Spring or Fall when the bears are hungry. And it's true. You can get pretty close to brownies when they are on the salmon, but the same bears will kill you if you try that in a hungry times of year - like now!

And this, apparently, is the first time he's gone in there to film in the Fall - and he's dead, and his girlfriend is dead. And two bears attacked the troopers trying to get the bodies out, and now they're dead.
I'd have told him that going in at this time of year was a mistake (as would anyone else who lives around here), but, he didn't ask since he's an "expert". Well, he was an expert.

I hope that doesn't sound harsh... This guy had big brass ones and lived his life on his own terms. You have to admire him for that.

Keith

Double Naught Spy
October 7, 2003, 06:57 PM
I like the old Gary Larson's Far Side cartoon showing two polar bears at an igloo and one saying, "I love these things. Crunchy on the outside and chewy in the middle."

I realize this isn't a polar bear issue, but the chewy part stands. Humans are not exactly tough food and without utensils have been food for other animals for eons.

Fisherfolk often do the salmon runs in Alaska without arms. It is not uncommon to see them sharing a stream with bears, some as close and 15 or 20 yards. Some idiots will even try to get the upper hand on a bear that attacks a hooked fish. Morons. Just about any time you see a fishing show in Alaska, you will see bears. Go figure. Some folks feel confident that they understand bear behavior because they have been there before and don't feel afraid. Morons. Some people have the really stupid idea that animals will only prey on humans as a last resort because human flesh doesn't taste good. Morons.

What we don't know from this story is the situation of the death of the humans. So humans are easy prey for animals like bears. Even worse is that humans manage overcome natural fear instincts and do extremely stupid things like being in bear country without arms.

I am curious as to whether or not the bear actually attacked the campers. Granted, the bear had apparently had his way with the campers and the bodies buried. This is fairly typical bear food storage behavior. It may be that the bear killed the people or that the people were otherwise killed and the bear scavenged them. I have seen this in ABQ, NM at the Office of the Medical Investigator. A killed couple had been scavenged by a bear and their bodies buried by trees. Apparently the bear would uncover a corpse, tear off a part, and then carry it some distance away to eat. All in all, parts were found over several hundred yards, but mostly centered around where they couple had been deposited by the killers, their neighbors.

When it is suggested that the bear attacked the couple, that makes it sound like the bear is at fault. That may or may not be the case. If you go through the "When Bears Attack" book series, control yourself when you read the countless stupid things humans do in bear country. Many of the tales are by survivors of bear attacks. Just about every tale is a horror story of stupid behavior, like the guy packing in a load of butchered fish after a day out on the boat. They docked late and his cabin was 2 miles inland and he proceeded at dusk with the load of fish on his back, no doubt dripping juices and blood as he went along. He even noted having heard bears in the woods, boars, doing the their territorial jousting and then was surprised when he was attacked. Moron.

Often, people who live by culture should not intrude in the the territory of species that live by nature.

gunsmith
October 7, 2003, 07:06 PM
the "expert" got a woman killed!
It is a damm shame for her and her family.
As for the guy that put her in that situation,I cant stand idiots like that,
they are the same ones who question my "need" to take a firearm
with me into the Sierra Nevada's when I go camping.
When more stuff like this happens maybe the NPS will
change idiotic policies like the no firearm rules in Yellowstone,Yosemite etc.

afaik this is the 2nd bear attack in a NP this year

Keith
October 7, 2003, 07:06 PM
I'm sure this guy didn't do anything stupid like have food in the tent or anything like that - I mean food other than themselves...
They died in camp, but I don't know if they were killed in the tent while sleeping or just attacked there. I'm sure they'll provide those details tomorrow when they know more.

And I'm equally sure they weren't killed by another human. There are no other humans. You can't get there without chartering a plane, and you can't leave either!

Keith

Cosmoline
October 7, 2003, 07:16 PM
No guns allowed.

In my book, the NPS killed these people. They are by far the worst federal agency in the state. Their attitude is always "like it or lump it" when local concerns are raised--from hunting to crossing their territory on snow machines. On top of that, they are increasingly para-military. I won't set foot on their territory. In my view it is occupied by a foreign power just as much as if the Japanese held it.

Baba Louie
October 7, 2003, 07:19 PM
http://www.katmaibears.com/bear-photos-12.htm

A worthy adversary, an awesome animal and being armed with a camera only is not an intelligent thing to do IMO... but look at those photos... awesome

I guess every day is a good day to die when you're doing something you love... but I really don't want to be a bear dinner.

Adios

Keith
October 7, 2003, 07:19 PM
I've met this guy and trust me - he wouldn't have had a gun even if it was allowed!

Keith

Cosmoline
October 7, 2003, 07:20 PM
Not to mention how the NPS has tamed the bears at Katmai to help touristas get better photos. Sick and wrong, all the way around.

Bill Hook
October 7, 2003, 07:22 PM
I've met this guy and trust me - he wouldn't have had a gun even if it was allowed!

Sorry to make light of this, but then natural selection was at work. Many of these naturalists are big Darwinists, right up to the end, apparently.:rolleyes:

Cosmoline
October 7, 2003, 07:27 PM
It isn't whether this guy would have been armed or not. There's a much large story here. The NPS has done all it can to ensure that bears on its turf are not going to bolt off at the site of a person. In the bad old days at Yellowstone they would feed the bruins. Now they carefully acclimate the bear to humans, who come and take pictures at distances I consider INSANELY close. They keep a tight, tight lid on the park. Very few get in unless on a tour with a guide or by special permission, and they have to fly in. Frankly what needs to happen is opening these parks up to hunting under state F&G laws--just like National Forest Lands. That would mean fewer photo ops, since the bears will typically bolt, but it would also help return things to their proper order.

The NPS tames bears.

Keith
October 7, 2003, 07:38 PM
Yeah, I agree 100%. They ought to at least turn it over to refuge status and lighten up those controls. Of course, that will never happen...

Some parts of Katmai are open to guns/hunters. I was going over on a caribou hunt a couple of years back because it's just across the straits and a cheap hunt, from Kodiak. That hunt fell through for various reasons, but you can hunt in some areas well away from Brooks River and the tame bears.

Kaflia Bay (where this attack happened) is a good sixty miles from Brooks, and it's on the opposite side of the mountains, which are high and topped with glaciers and ice fields. I'm sure none of these bears in Kaflia have been through that mess on Brooks River. These bears are "wild".

Keith

gunsmith
October 7, 2003, 07:54 PM
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2537670/detail.html

No weapons were found at the scene, Park Service spokeswoman Jane Tranel said. Firearms are prohibited in that part of the park. :banghead:

Keith
October 7, 2003, 08:09 PM
OK, they've released the names. You may have seen Treadwell on the discovery channel with a series called "Grizzly Diaries".


Bear enthusiast, companion fatally mauled in Katmai National Park
Pilot discovers scene of brown bear attack


By Rachel D'Oro
The Associated Press

(Published: October 7, 2003)

(Ron Engstrom / Anchorage Daily News)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Click on photo to enlarge
A self-styled bear expert who once called Alaska's brown bears harmless party animals was one of two people fatally mauled in a bear attack in Katmai National Park and Preserve - the first known bear killings in the 4.7-million-acre park.

The bodies of Timothy Treadwell, 46, and Amie Hugenard, 37, both of Malibu, Calif., were found near Kaflia Bay on Monday when a pilot with Andrew Airways arrived to pick them up and take them to Kodiak, Alaska State Troopers said. The park is on the Alaska Peninsula.

Treadwell, co-author of "Among Grizzlies: Living With Wild Bears in Alaska," spent more than a dozen summers living alone with Katmai bears, and videotaping them. Information on Hugenard was not immediately available.

The Andrew Airways pilot contacted troopers in Kodiak and the National Park Service in King Salmon after he saw a brown bear, possibly on top of a body, in the camp Monday afternoon.

Park rangers encountered a large, aggressive male brown bear when they arrived at the campsite and killed it. Investigators then found human remains buried by a bear near the campsite, which was in a brushy area with poor visibility.

No weapons were found at the scene, Park Service spokeswoman Jane Tranel said. Firearms are prohibited in that part of the park.

The remains and the entire campsite were packed out Monday and transported to Kodiak on the Andrew Airways flight.

As the plane was being loaded, another aggressive bear approached and was killed by park rangers and troopers. The bear was younger, possibly a 3-year-old, according to Bruce Bartley, a spokesman for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game office in King Salmon.

The bodies were flown to the state medical examiner's office for autopsy.

Dean Andrew, owner of Andrew Airways, said the pilot was too upset to comment. The company had been flying Treadwell out to Katmai for 13 years and Huguenard for the last couple of years. Andrew said Treadwell as an experienced outdoorsman.

"We were all good friends with him," he said. "We haven't had time to deal with it."

Treadwell was known for his brazen confidence around bears. He often got so close he could touch them. He gave them names. Once he was filmed crawling along the ground singing as he approached a sow and two cubs.

Over the years, Park Service officials, biologists and others expressed concern about his safety and the message he was sending out.

"At best he's misguided," Deb Liggett, superintendent at Katmai and Lake Clark national parks, told the Anchorage Daily News in 2001. "At worst he's dangerous. If Timothy models unsafe behavior, that ultimately puts bears and other visitors at risk."

That same year, Treadwell was a guest on the "Late Show with David Letterman," describing Alaska brown bears as mostly harmless "party animals." He said he felt safer living among the bears than running through New York's Central Park.

In his book, Treadwell said he decided to devote himself to saving grizzlies after a drug overdose, followed by several close calls with brown bears in early trips to Alaska. He said those experiences inspired him to give up drugs, study bears and establish a nonprofit bear-appreciation group, called Grizzly People.

Grizzly and brown bears are the same species, but brown is used to describe bears in coastal areas and grizzly for bears in the Interior.

Treadwell and Huguenard were videotaping bears at the Kaflia Bay lakes, usually not frequented by visitors, according to Park Service spokesman John Quinley. He said bears are attracted to the area by a late run of salmon passing through lakes.

The site is 60 air miles east of Brooks Camp, the best known and most frequently visited bear-watching site in the park. Although it is reachable only by float plane or boat, as many as 300 people visit in July, when scores of bears congregate at the Brooks River as sockeye salmon make their way to spawning grounds.

"July is prime-time for bears there," Quinley said. "It's a worldwide destination."

In the mid-1980s, a brown bear mauled the body of a visitor who drowned, but this week's attacks are the first known bear killings in the park, Quinley said.

Rangers planned to return to the site Tuesday, but were waiting for low clouds to clear, Bartley said.

TallPine
October 7, 2003, 08:16 PM
Mr Darwin and Mr Murphy finally caught up with him.

Bill Hook
October 7, 2003, 08:28 PM
Treadwell said he decided to devote himself to saving grizzlies after a drug overdose

Brain damage?


Treadwell was known for his brazen confidence around bears. He often got so close he could touch them. He gave them names. Once he was filmed crawling along the ground singing as he approached a sow and two cubs.

:rolleyes:

This guy was actively seeking Darwin. All I feel bad about is he lead someone else their demise. Oh, and some pity for the bears, as his ego gratification and overconfident bravado killed them too. Sounds like he wasn't an "expert" after all, but merely an accomplished dilletante who thought 12 years of being lucky was a stand-in for common sense and a true understanding of the unpredictability of his target subject

Viking Warrior
October 7, 2003, 08:53 PM
Sounds to me like he was pushing the limits of Human- Bear contact.
http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/issues/00/01.12/ae.grizzlies.html

gunsmith
October 7, 2003, 08:53 PM
that they are still safe with gentle ben and still flock to these
places without any guns

Ryder
October 7, 2003, 09:06 PM
He's got a book on Amazon. You can read something about him in there (preview of the first 23 pages). There's a picture of him on the back cover.

He was into guns during his drug addict days. Sounds to me like it's possible he may have taken one for protection if it was allowed.

Among Grizzlies (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345426053/ref=lib_dp_TFCV/104-1708089-9110329?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader#reader-link)

Cosmoline
October 7, 2003, 10:01 PM
FYI here's his website:

http://www.grizzlypeople.com/home.php

Too bad. There's even a "bear safety" posting there!

And check this out:

Grizzly People Founder Timothy Treadwell has lived peacefully with Alaskan grizzlies since the late 1980s. From late spring to autumn he immerses himself among these fascinating animals, who combine fearsome power and emotional depth unseen in most creatures. Living without weapons or fire, Treadwell studies the animals, all the while protecting them from humans who would kill them for trophies and their valuable body parts.
---

The irony. I would be tempted laugh about the "body parts" thing, but frankly it just sends terrible chills up my spine. They were already broken down and buried when the rangers found them. The whole thing is just terrible.

Cosmoline
October 7, 2003, 10:20 PM
From the ecoboy's own website, an interview with Treadwell:

http://www.leonardodicaprio.org/environ_06_tre_04.html

Q: That's amazing. You're there with no weapons. You're probably
the first human in history, I would think, to do something like this,
because even the indigenous people would hunt.

A: Yes, and they would battle the bears. I'm living in a part of Alaska where Yupik Eskimos lived and they did occasionally kill bears and drive them away from the food source, which is the opposite of what I'm doing. And I recommend to the public, if they do go into bear country, to carry bear spray. I've retired mine. I'm being very careful about what I'm saying here - I do recommend it for the average person in case they get into trouble. They should always be bear aware. Don't approach them. Don't feed them human food, or any food.

But if there is a sticky situation and someone has to make a decision to either lay down flat on their belly covering their neck and vital areas, or to use the bear spray, I recommend the use of the bear spray. It works for nine out of every ten people. A stinging eye is a lot better than a bullet or a dead person, because every time a person is killed by a bear, the bear is automatically killed.

But for me, I've evolved my work into this. I don't want to carry anything that disturbs the bear. I am there on a mission of peace. When I am there I treat myself in their wilderness like a kind alien. If somebody from another world came here, you would hope they would be kind and neutral and simply observe. And that's what I do. I'm just this kind of supernatural alien that comes into the wilderness and I want to be unconditional love and kindness (to them) and live with them and go with them and not carry something that will hurt them. I've adopted that strategy, and in the last two years I've had zero aggressive situations with bears.

That's not to say that a new giant male that's aggressive and wants to establish itself on the hierarchy couldn't come in and challenge me. That could always happen and that's why this work is always dangerous. As of now, I can move among the animals without interfering and record their secret world, kind of like a fly on the wall, and then educate people.
_________________

He also takes the opportunity to claim that if not for him these "last great bears" would all be poached by us locals! Absurd and insulting. Though I hate to speak ill of the dead.

Quartus
October 7, 2003, 10:43 PM
Common sense would tell you to bring something to defend yourself with. Are these people suicidal?

Malibu. Blissninnies.

Cosmoline
October 7, 2003, 10:48 PM
Here's another insult I found on the web from the late Mr. Treadwell:

"I’m their lifeguard," he says simply. "I’m there to keep the poachers and sport hunters away."

I have to say, the more I see about this guy the more I dislike what he stood for. He seemed to view Alaska as his private third world nation, and us as the dangerous tribals who are poaching brown bears left and right. You know who stops poachers in Alaska? HUNTERS! Not this fellow.

But I await the autopsy results. We'll see if evil poachers killed him so they could kill "his" bears

Bigjake
October 7, 2003, 11:00 PM
sounds like a diane fossy (sp) nutjob.... glad darwin could do its thing the way nature intended.

EJ
October 7, 2003, 11:13 PM
They (all bears) should be regulated as varmint -- even a bounty would be great---:)

Bigjake
October 7, 2003, 11:21 PM
i'd have to disagree there.... but a normal hunting season would be nice, and on NP lands. it drives me nuts that "they" control supposedly public lands like that..

Bill Hook
October 7, 2003, 11:28 PM
I'm going to disagree w/ you, EJ.

It is the people who are intruding here and there aren't really all that many bears around for them to really be considered varmints. If they cruise around the streets of Anchorage, then that might be the case, but it is far more likely the humans are in the bear's habitat than vice versa.

I'm sure Keith will tell us different about Kodiak, as I've seen that the locals do get bears coming around to their houses there.

Keith
October 7, 2003, 11:35 PM
On his TV specials, he always makes a big deal out of every fishing boat that wanders into the bay. He says they're "poachers" and he runs around lighting flares and stuff like that to "let them know someone is there to report them".
Of course, they're not poachers, just fisherman getting out of the weather. No fisherman is going to risk a million dollar boat to shoot a bear in Katmai when he go down the coast a few miles or across to Kodiak and shoot one legally. Heck, you can buy an over the counter tag for parts of Kodiak - no drawing even!

I think he really loved these bears, but he was also playing to the bliss-ninny crowd by making himself out as a hero and a "protector of bears" - and getting rich in the process.

The local paper is out and they've got a lot more info than is being reported online in the Anchorage paper. He was actually leaving at the end of September as he does every year, but he hung out in town for a couple of weeks and then went back just a few days ago to "say farewell to the bears". He's never been around the bears that late in the season (as I suspected), and the last red run has petered out. They tried to talk him out of it because the weather outlook has been just terrible and they didn't know when they could get back in and pick him up. And he WAS warned that the bears stop being friendly when the fish run out. He laughed all that off. He's an "expert".

Keith

Keith
October 7, 2003, 11:42 PM
Bears bring hundreds of millions of dollars into the state from hunters and tourists. They're not going to be classified as "varmints"!

And they DO wander around in downtown Anchorage! It happens all the time. In the winter, you can't drive through Anchorage without seeing a moose or three, and every once in awhile they get ornery and trample somebody to death.
Juneau is famous for bears in town. The black bears down there crawl through dumpsters like so many overgrown raccoons. People just shoo them away. My favorite bar down there is the Red Dog Saloon which has a mounted bear which was shot IN the bar...

Keith

Bill Hook
October 7, 2003, 11:53 PM
but he was also playing to the bliss-ninny crowd by making himself out as a hero and a "protector of bears"


As the fact that he was quoted on the Leonardo DiCaprio website indicates. :rolleyes:

forquidder
October 8, 2003, 12:59 AM
Sounds like one of the Big Dog males was taking one last easy meal before retiring to his den for the Winter.
Bears will even eat each other as happens when bigger males kill and eat smaller cubs. For this guy to think that these bears would treat him any different than they treat each other was foolhardy. In a time of thin resources when a bear is trying to pack on as many pounds as possible for the long Winter, it was bound to happen.

.45FMJoe
October 8, 2003, 02:04 AM
What I want to know, is why you people think you have the right to carry a gun in a state park...an animal sanctuary??

Why, because it's unsafe, Joe! There are bears you say!

SO THEN STAY THE $#^ OUT. It's THEIR territory, not yours.

Why is this so difficult a concept?

Let me put it to you like this:

It would be like a burglar breaking into your house and you kill him, and others advocating the rights of burglars to be legally armed.

You were not put here to kill animals as you see fit, yes you must do it to eat, but not because your dumb-a$$ wants to take a stroll in the woods and is afraid of being eaten. Oh f'ing well. You take the risk, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER MAMMAL.

.45FMJoe
October 8, 2003, 02:22 AM
Hmm, OK. Now that I've calmed down a bit, let me appologize for all the capitalized "yellings."

Now, I ask again.

Why is it you, a bi-pedal mammalian, believe you should have an unfair advantage over a quadra-pedal mammalian just because you *think* you are more intelligent and evolved?

I say, if you want to venture off into the big bad woods, where you could encounter anything, you do so at your own risk!! Just because society throws the wool over your eyes and makes you believe you should be at the top of the food chain, does not mean you actually are.

Take me for example. I am an avid recreational SCUBA diver. Every time I jump in the pool, I am exposed to millions of gallons and acres of water and ALL it's inhabitants. Many of which could eat me with nary a bit of remorse, because in my current state I'm a food source. I take the risk, knowing what could happen. You don't see me pissing and moaning because I should be able to have a bang stick in FL waters. The Ocean is their inhabitance, I am mearly a visitor. I even have an AXO outfitters t-shirt that shows a diver being surrounded by sharks, and it says "You aren't always on top of the food chain." I also have another shirt that I got in Cayman that says:

"You could run out of air and die
You could get hit by a boat and die
You could get bit by a shark and die

Or you can sit home, fall off the couch and die."

Pretty much sums it up.

Bill Hook
October 8, 2003, 02:22 AM
Joe,

Bears have claws and teeth and brute strength to DEFEND themselves. As for me, I have a gun to DEFEND myself. I call that pretty close to even, as each of our defenses has strengths and weaknesses.

I have just as much right to be there as the bear, or the wolverine, or the eagle, or the ground squirrel, etc., so long as I leave no traces of my presence behind and don't disturb the creatures any more than is necessary.

Buckskinner
October 8, 2003, 03:08 AM
What infuriates me is his self proclaimed expertness. I mean, he was there during the fat time of the year! That's like meeting the Raiderettes at a fundraiser for disabled kids, and thinking they always wore those outfits and smiled like I could pick a few to take home and have a TV dinner with!

I worked out of Chignik for a summer. Our salmon tender dropped off three German "scientists" at this park to study the Katmai crater(s). They were gone for a month. When I saw them again at the cannery cafeteria, they looked like death camp refugees. Their hair was long and matted, and their cheeks were gaunt. Their clothes were torn and muddy. They told a story of getting lost, and being without fire for days. They jury rigged an outrigger on their inflatable kayak to get across a large bay to get picked up by a random fisherman. They were very lucky to survive. This story just to illustrate that up there, there is no mercy, no sun to navigate by, no trails. Just 10' tall alders thicker than anything you've ever tried to walk through. The only trails are made by bear. Its wet and inhospitable and merciless.

Damn right the natives, both current and pre-historical, "battled the bear"...

" I'm just this kind of supernatural alien that comes into the wilderness and I want to be unconditional love and kindness (to them) and live with them and go with them and not carry something that will hurt them. I've adopted that strategy, and in the last two years I've had zero aggressive situations with bears. "

Oh man....good riddance. Sorry for the family though...

Who's gonna tell Leonardo?

BogBabe
October 8, 2003, 08:50 AM
I'm just this kind of supernatural alien that comes into the wilderness and I want to be unconditional love and kindness (to them) and live with them and go with them and not carry something that will hurt them. I've adopted that strategy, and in the last two years I've had zero aggressive situations with bears.

This reminds of the blissninny girl DrJones mentioned in the "silly anti-gun comments" thread who insisted that crime only ever happens to people who fear it. If you just have love and compassion for everyone in the world, no one will ever hurt anyone.

Whether the topic is bears or people, this is such a disconnect from reality that it boggles the mind.

Bigjake
October 8, 2003, 11:18 AM
.45FMJoe,

if you feel safe without weapon on land or by sea, don't carry a weapon and chance becoming a meal like that "expert" bozo. for the rest of us who want to enjoy the same scenery with some degree of security against things that have huge phsycal advantage over us 2 leggers, i recomend something in the 45-70 gov't range.

we ARE the most intelegent species, and that does put us on top of the foodchain, but not without the use of that intelegence and tools that you consider an unfair advantage.

WvaBill
October 8, 2003, 11:48 AM
I am there on a mission of peace.

That is so :confused: . Give him a Jimmy Carter World Peace Award posthumously.

edited for spelling;)

Wildalaska
October 8, 2003, 11:55 AM
The guy was an idiot...nuff said..

WildwearejustayummysnackAlaska

Double Naught Spy
October 8, 2003, 11:56 AM
I am continually amazed by complacent experts, be it Treadwell or Roy. Bears can and do kill and sometimes ingest people. Big cats love to eat people. Being in close proximity to either and going at it au naturale (no weapons except those you are born with) and the humans are going to lose. Morons.

No doubt some idiot at Treadwell's funeral will make the comment that he died doing what he loved. Of course they will be referring to spending time with the grizzlies, but that probably is not how he died. He probably died being chomped to death is a fairly horrific circumstance.

If Treadwell is who I think he is, I have seen some of his stuff on TV (Discover Channel?). He note that he understood bear behavior and that over the years the bears had come to recognize him and so he was not seen as a threat, but more or less just part of the environment. There are many animals in the bear's immediate environment that are not threats and the bears kill an eat them. Why the hell this guy thought he was different is way beyond comprehension for me. More over, things like cubs, territoriality issues, and even some ailments (disease or injury) will make bears behave in significantly more aggressive manners than is normal. So the understanding of bear behavior and being safe really is only valid when things are going properly. In nature, many things are not normal or proper.

Several years ago, I saw part of the eulogy for a champion free climber on TV. Free climbing is done without ropes an in this guy's case, he often went completely solo. When he went missing, there was a searh and he was found where he had plummeted to his death. In the eulogy, the person was saying that he died doing what he loved. She meant climbing, but climbing didn't kill him. He died in the high speed impact on rock after plummeting.

Keith
October 8, 2003, 12:08 PM
http://www.adn.com/front/story/4110831p-4127072c.html

Wildlife author killed, eaten by bears he loved
KATMAI: Many had warned Treadwell that his encounters with browns were too close.

By CRAIG MEDRED
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: October 8, 2003)
A California author and filmmaker who became famous for trekking to Alaska's remote Katmai coast to commune with brown bears has fallen victim to the teeth and claws of the wild animals he loved.

Alaska State Troopers and National Park Service officials said Timothy Treadwell, 46, and girlfriend Amie Huguenard, 37, were killed and partially eaten by a bear or bears near Kaflia Bay, about 300 miles southwest of Anchorage, earlier this week.

Scientists who study Alaska brown bears said they had been warning Treadwell for years that he needed to be more careful around the huge and powerful coastal twin of the grizzly.

Treadwell's films of close-up encounters with giant bears brought him a bounty of national media attention. The fearless former drug addict from Malibu, Calif. -- who routinely eased up close to bears to chant "I love you'' in a high-pitched, sing-song voice -- was the subject of a show on the Discovery Channel and a report on "Dateline NBC." Blond, good-looking and charismatic, he appeared for interviews on David Letterman's show and "The Rosie O'Donnell Show" to talk about his bears. He even gave them names: Booble, Aunt Melissa, Mr. Chocolate, Freckles and Molly, among others.

A self-proclaimed eco-warrior, he attracted something of a cult following too. Chuck Bartlebaugh of "Be Bear Aware,'' a national bear awareness campaign, called Treadwell one of the leaders of a group of people engaged in "a trend to promote getting close to bears to show they were not dangerous.

"He kept insisting that he wanted to show that bears in thick brush aren't dangerous. The last two people killed (by bears) in Glacier National Park went off the trail into the brush. They said their goal was to find a grizzly bear so they could 'do a Timothy.' We have a trail of dead people and dead bears because of this trend that says, 'Let's show it's not dangerous.' ''

But even Treadwell knew that getting close with brown bears in thick cover was indeed dangerous. In his 1997 book "Among Grizzlies,'' he wrote of a chilling encounter with a bear in the alder thickets that surround Kaflia Lake along the outer coast of Katmai National Park and Preserve.

"This was Demon, who some experts label the '25th Grizzly,' the one that tolerates no man or bear, the one that kills without bias,'' Treadwell wrote. "I had thought Demon was going to kill me in the Grizzly Maze.''

Treadwell survived and kept coming back to the area. He would spend three to four months a summer along the Katmai coast, filming, watching and talking to the bears.

"I met him during the summer of '98 at Hallo Bay,'' said Stephen Stringham, a professor with the University of Alaska system. "At first, having read his book, I thought he was fairly foolhardy ... (but) he was more careful than the book portrayed.

"He wasn't naive. He knew there was danger."

NO PROTECTION

Despite that, Treadwell refused to carry firearms or ring his campsites with an electric fence as do bear researchers in the area. And he stopped carrying bear spray for self-protection in recent years. Friends said he thought he knew the bears so well he didn't need it.

U.S. Geological Survey bear researcher Tom Smith; Sterling Miller, formerly the Alaska Department of Fish and Game's top bear authority; and others said they tried to warn the amateur naturalist that he was being far too cavalier around North America's largest and most powerful predator.

"He's the only one I've consistently had concern for,'' Smith said. "He had kind of a childlike attitude about him.''

"I told him to be much more cautious ... because every time a bear kills somebody, there is a big increase in bearanoia and bears get killed,'' Miller said. "I thought that would be a way of getting to him, and his response was 'I would be honored to end up in bear scat.' ''

A number of other people said that over the years Treadwell made similar comments to them, implying that he would prefer to die as part of a bear's meal. All said they found the comments troubling, because bears that attack people so often end up dead.

RANGERS RETRIEVE REMAINS

Katmai park rangers who went Monday to retrieve the remains of Treadwell and Huguenard -- both of whom were largely eaten -- ended up killing two bears near the couple's campsite.

Katmai superintendent Deb Liggett said she was deeply troubled by the whole episode.

"The last time I saw Timothy, I told him to be safe out there and that none of my staff would ever forgive him if they had to kill a bear because of him,'' she said. "I kind of had a heart-to-heart with him. I told him he was teaching the wrong message.

"This is unfortunate, (but) I'm not surprised. It really wasn't a matter of if; it was just a matter of when.''

What led up to the latest Alaska bear attack, as well as exactly when it happened, is unknown. The bodies of Treadwell and Huguenard, a physician's assistant from Boulder, Colo., were discovered Monday by the pilot of a Kodiak air taxi who arrived at their wilderness camp to take them back to civilization. A bear had buried the remains of both in what is known as a "food cache.''

The couple's tent was flattened as if a bear sat or stepped on it, but it had not been ripped open, even though food was inside. The condition of the tent led most knowledgeable observers to conclude the attack probably took place during the daylight hours when Treadwell and Huguenard were outside the tent, instead of at night when they would have been inside. Most of their food was found in bear-proof containers near the camp.

Officials said the camp was clean but located close to a number of bear trails. Because of the concentration of bears in the Kaflia Lake area and a shortage of good campsites, however, it is almost impossible to camp anywhere but along a bear trail there.

EXTENDED THEIR STAY

Treadwell and Huguenard, who was in the process of moving from Colorado to Malibu to live with Treadwell, had last been heard from Sunday afternoon when they used a satellite phone to talk to Jewel Palovak. Palovak is a Malibu associate of Treadwell at Grizzly People, which bills itself as "a grass-roots organization devoted to preserving bears and their wilderness habitat.''

Palovak said she talked with Treadwell about his favorite bear, a sow he called Downy. Treadwell had been worried, Palovak said, that the sow might have wandered out of the area and been killed by hunters. So instead of returning to California at the end of September as planned, Treadwell lingered at Kaflia to look for her. Palovak said Treadwell was excited to report finding the animal alive.

PILOT CALLS IN TRAGEDY

What transpired in the hours after the phone call is unknown. The Kodiak pilot who arrived at the Treadwell camp the next day was met by a charging brown bear. The bear forced the pilot for Andrew Airways back to his floatplane.

Authorities said he took off and buzzed the bear several times in an effort to drive it out of the area, but it would not leave the campsite established by Treadwell and Huguenard. When the pilot spotted the bear apparently sitting on the remains of a human, authorities said, he flew back to the lake, landed, beached his plane some distance from the camp and called for help from troopers and the Park Service.

Interviews with sources who were on the scene provided this account:

Park rangers were the first to arrive. They hiked from the beach toward a knob above the camp hoping to be able to survey the scene from a distance. They had no sooner reached the top of the knob, however, than they were charged by a large brown bear.

It was shot and killed at a distance of about 12 feet. The Andrew Air pilot, according to Bruce Bartley of the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, was convinced the large boar with the ratty hide was the same animal he'd tried to buzz out of the campsite. The boar was described as an underweight, old male with rotting teeth.

Authorities do not know if it was the bear that killed Treadwell and Huguenard. They were to fly to the site on Tuesday to search the animal's stomach for human remains but were prevented from doing so by bad weather.

After shooting that bear, rangers and troopers who had by then arrived walked down to the campsite and undertook the task of gathering the remains of the two campers. While they were there, another large boar grizzly went through the campsite but largely ignored the humans.

A smaller, subadult that appeared later, however, seemed to be stalking the group. Rangers and troopers shot and killed it.

"It would have killed Timothy to know that they killed the bears,'' Palovak said, "but there was no choice in the matter."

"He was very clear that he didn't want any retaliation against a bear,'' added Roland Dixon, a wealthy bear fan who lives on a ranch outside of Fort Collins, Colo., and has been one of Treadwell's main benefactors for the past six or seven years. "He was really adamant that he didn't want any bear to suffer from any mistake that he made. His attitude was that if something like this were to happen, it would probably be his fault.''

Bartlebaugh of "Be Bear Aware'' has no doubts that Treadwell loved the animals but believes the love was misguided.

"I'm an avid bear enthusiast,'' Bartlebaugh said. "It's the same attitude that I think Timothy had, but I don't want them (the bears) to be my friends. I don't want to have a close, loving relationship. I want to be in awe of them as wild animals.''

Palovak, Treadwell's associate, and Dixon take a different view.

"I think (Timothy) would say it's the culmination of his life's work,'' Palovak said. "He always knew that he was the bear's guest and that they could terminate his stay at any time. He lived with the full knowledge of that. He died doing what he lived for.''

"He was kind of a goofy guy,'' Dixon said. "It took me a while to get in tune with him. His whole life was dedicated to being with the bears, or teaching young people about them. That's all he ever did. It was always about the bears. It was never about Timothy. He had a passion and he lived his passion. There will be no one to replace him. There's just nobody in the bear world who studies bears like Timothy did.''

Dixon acknowledged Treadwell took risks with bears but dismissed as envious those who criticized his behavior .

Keith
October 8, 2003, 12:26 PM
This story answers a few of yesterdays questions. It looks like they were not killed in the tent. They did have some food in the tent, but the bear(s) ignored it.
The bear that killed them (probably) was an old male in poor shape who took them down as food.

His philosophy: "I would be honored to end up in bear scat."

The weather was miserable here yesterday and nobody has been able to fly. It's clearing today and so they'll be back out there to sort it out a bit and retrieve any "parts" they might have missed.

Keith

TallPine
October 8, 2003, 12:37 PM
I would be honored to end up in bear scat
Another reason to watch where you step ...

Bigjake
October 8, 2003, 12:50 PM
talk about pucker factor.... those rangers dropping a griz at 12 ft :what:

well, he acomplished his task of not comming on like a threat, the bears apparently thought him the same amount of threat as a tasty salmon

MarkDido
October 8, 2003, 01:11 PM
If the NPS has decided that weapons are prohibited in that park, why were the Rangers armed?

TallPine
October 8, 2003, 01:25 PM
If the NPS has decided that weapons are prohibited in that park, why were the Rangers armed?
Because the Rangers are "them" and we are "us"

:cuss:

Bill Hook
October 8, 2003, 01:30 PM
The weather was miserable here yesterday and nobody has been able to fly. It's clearing today and so they'll be back out there to sort it out a bit and retrieve any "parts" they might have missed.


Somehow, if there are any human remains they didn't get the first time, I think that more bears may die (never mind the bear carcasses).

I was going to say what Keith mentioned about the old boar, who probably couldn't hunt much and relied on fishing and occasional critters for sustinence. Killing humans is easy enough for a worn out bear.

The younger bear probably was scavenging and smelled "tree-hugger" fricasee and came to the area to get his share, only to be killed.


Let's see, 1 dead moron, 1 dead human, and 2 dead bears. Perhaps we should keep a running total of the damage wrought by this idiot.

Cosmoline
October 8, 2003, 01:32 PM
.45FMJoe-- Spoken like someone who lives in Florida :D

Frankly there are a lot of folks who come up here from Florida or ********** and feel insulted that any humans actually live here. To them, Alaska is the sanctuary which is supposed to somehow make up for their own mistakes with wildlife. In other words, it's OK to put that new golf course in because there's still wild bear in Alaska.

Unforunately, most of the these people don't have a clue about fish and game mangement in Alaska. There are over 30,000 brown bears in this state. They aren't endangered, not even remotely. Why? Because us crazy gun-toting locals have sought to protect them, while you folks in the paved-over hell have killed all of yours.

Back off. Way off.

Cosmoline
October 8, 2003, 01:36 PM
What was this guys issue with hunters, anyway? He seems to have lived in a fantasy world where the park is full of poachers who will kill all "his" bears the second he leaves! This is absurd. Why do you suppose there are so many bear there? Because there are no hunters, and very few poachers. This guy apparently lived in a Steven Segall movie.

And ironically, he is responsible now for the deaths of two bear.

spacemanspiff
October 8, 2003, 01:44 PM
as i think back, i cant recall the last time a native alaskan was mauled by a bear. its usually a resident of alaska, but they likely werent born here.

i've always wondered why more tourists dont get eaten by bears. maybe the bears are getting kickbacks from the tourism industry? oh well...

Keith
October 8, 2003, 01:47 PM
Cosmo,

Good reply to joe!

I started to say something, but killed the reply because if I had said what I thought when I first read his note, this thread would be closed!

I get tired of people who come here for a week in the summer and look down their noses at the those of us who live here as if we're "intruding" on the natural world... How dare we run a set-net off the beach and catch hundreds of salmon! How dare we walk past them on the trail with a deer on our back and rifle in our hand!
But of course, they've seen "Grizzly Diaries" on the Discovery Channel and know everything there is to know...

Those people are a minority, but there's still way too many of them. We're lucky here because very few of them will spend the bread to get off the road system, but they do come...

Keith

spacemanspiff
October 8, 2003, 01:55 PM
hehhehehehe..... keiths post reminded me of my uncle. he lived in a little village off kodiak called ouzinkie (u-zinc-ee). quite a drunk, never made many right decisions in his personal life, but was a hell of a businessman, but anyways....
one day hes on a bender, and sees a couple of tourists who were staying at a lodge in the little village. these two tourists were fishing out of a small stream down the hill from his house. so he gets all riled up about those crazy outsiders, durn whiteys and whatnot (in case you didnt know, alaska natives are very prejudiced against whitey) who are stealing the natives fish, so he gets his rifle out, and puts a few rounds over their heads to scare them off!

he spent a couple months in a halfway house for that. we now return you to the topic of this thread.....

Rebel Gunman HK
October 8, 2003, 01:56 PM
Lemme get this straight. You are not allowed to carry any firearm in any National Park in the U.S.? You are not allowed to carry for protection? In the wilderness? Where there are big bears that can eat you? What is the penalty for being caught in a Natinal Park with a firearm? I can completely understand not being able to hunt in one. But not being able to protect yourself when all you want to do is see the sights and enjoy nature is criminal. We have as much right as the animals to be there. If we are unarmed we have no defense against the likes of a bear. So as one dumb poster said to stay out if you are not willing to be eaten. That is stupid. Ill carry to protect myself no matter what the stupid law is. My life is worth more to me than a fine!

Bigjake
October 8, 2003, 01:59 PM
hmm.... i wonder if they make a pistol in the 45-70 range thats easily concealed, might want one for my trip west....

Keith
October 8, 2003, 02:04 PM
i cant recall the last time a native alaskan was mauled by a bear.

Ask a native what "giving a bear a belly ache" means! I was camped on the dirt strip at Karluk one time waiting for the weather to clear so I could get picked up. I was chatting with a local man and we were both watching a good sized bear who was nosing around the edge of the village.
I asked him what he was going to do about it, and he said would "give him a belly ache" after we (indicating the small group of stranded fisherman I was with) left. I asked him what he meant by that, but he just smiled and wouldn't tell me.
Later that day, or maybe the next day, we were joined by another native guy and his wife who was also waiting to get out to another village. I knew this guy quite well and I asked him about that "belly ache" line. He told me that when a bear comes around the village, they'll gut-shoot them. A gut-shot bear will depart and die "somewhere else" and they don't have to answer any questions from the federal boys.

And those little villages don't have much of a bear problem. The kids are safe.

Keith

Keith
October 8, 2003, 02:08 PM
Just stay out of the National Parks, they're more like zoo's anyway! There are only two places in Alaska where you feel "crowded" - downtown Anchorage and Denali Park...

There's a half million square miles of pristine wilderness here, so why go to Katmai or Denali?

Keith

Steel
October 8, 2003, 02:11 PM
"I’m their lifeguard," he says simply. "I’m there to keep the poachers and sport hunters away"

ironic

http://www.dcn.davis.ca.us/~gizmo/1999/tim.html

Bill Hook
October 8, 2003, 02:19 PM
Apparently, he never saw their 22nd body signal, which indicates you're invited to dinner.

Human, it's what's for dinner. :evil:

TallPine
October 8, 2003, 02:27 PM
Reminds me of the fellow who was caught by a bear ...

"Oh Lord," he prayed desperately, "please let this bear be a Christian!"

"Heavenly Father," the bear said, "thank you for this food that you have provided."

Cosmoline
October 8, 2003, 02:39 PM
The last major killing of local Alaskans I remember by bear was the McHugh Creek attack back in '95 or so. That was a fluke, when three runners ran smack into a huge boar guarding a fresh cache. There were no maulings, just two killings. IIRC, one swipe broke a woman's neck instantly while a second swipe sent a full-grown man flying into the underbrush, his lung and internal organs pierced. The third guy got away, and the bear made no effort to eat the people or maul at them. He just wanted them away, but he must have been so big merely a swat was enough to kill.

When I see a black bear, I yell at it to get out of there and it does. When I see fresh sign of brown bear, esp. on a major trail, I get the hell out of there. I'd love to see one up close in the wild, but the notion that I have some right to do so would be pretty arrogant. Treadwell was taking liberties with the rough end of the Pleistocene--an animal that outlasted saber-toothed tigers and short-faced bears.

.45FMJoe
October 8, 2003, 02:44 PM
Do I live on a golf course? Did I clear land for a golf course? Did I petition for a new golf course? No.

In fact, last weekend I traveled across the state to visit my grandfather who gave me a new rifle for my 22nd birthday (which is on the 17th). I was appaled at all the construction on Hwy 60 and even moreso around Stuart/Ft. Pierce, FL. It's ridiculous, but in the end money wins.

I grew up in very rural New York, Hopewell Junction/East Fishkill to be exact. We were far removed from the actual town. My backyard was woodlands as far as the eye can see. I grew up with all sorts of nasty poisonous snakes, and furry critters. I could wake up and see deer in my front or backyard. Unsure of any bears, but we had foxes and wolves and whatnot. My friends and I ran all over those woods and never had a problem. When I went back to my hometown about a year ago, I was shocked. New developments were sprouting up everywhere. Precious forests were leveled and in their place massive houses. I didn't know what to do, I cried to be honest. There was one road that lead to where our house was, and where there used to be only one development, there are now 5. A couple miles down the road, around my old house is still the same, but it's rapidly growing and pains me very much.

So no, I'm not really a Florida boy. I still stand by what I said. Sure, you have a right to be there too. However, you are still just another mammal and should get over that fact that you are not some supreme being. If you think you should have a gun in a park to defend yourself, then you should be arming the little prey with AR-15s, camelbacks and 1911's so they too can "defend" themselves against becoming the bear's food. I'm not quite sure how a squirrel, gopher, racoon, wolf, deer, etc will be able to use said equipment...but fair is fair!! :D

And Keith, bro, calm down. Do you forget everyone is entitled to their own opinions? Ah, yes it's that whole 1st ammendment thing... Thus, I will not back off, not even a little bit! :neener:

Keith
October 8, 2003, 02:55 PM
Joe,

It wasn't me that told you to back off. You seem confused...

Unsure of any bears, but we had foxes and wolves and whatnot.

There are no wolves in New York. But the fact that you don't know that (even though you lived there) demonstrates the level of knowledge you have on the subject.
And it's interesting that you bemoan the housing developments that went up over those woods, but don't seem to understand that your house was one of them!

Kind of reminds me of the definition of environmentalist and developer. An environmentalist is the guy who already has a house on the lake while a developer is the guy who merely wants one...

Keith

Cosmoline
October 8, 2003, 04:23 PM
I'll make a deal with you .45FMJoe. I'll leave my rifle behind if the next time you go diving you leave your scuba tank empty. That will make you "even" with the fishes.
:D

I've run across your POV before. Frankly if you choose to go unarmed, that's fine. But don't demand that I do likewise because you have this bizarre notion that Alaska should be one big park.

Not sure where you're getting this nonsense about "supreme beings." That has nothing to do with the issue of forbidding firearms for "little people" in the National Parks. You will note, I hope, that rangers are VERY well armed. One rule for us, one for them. You like that situation?!?

.45FMJoe
October 8, 2003, 04:46 PM
Yes we most certainly had wolves. Where did that come from?

Bigjake
October 8, 2003, 04:58 PM
not after 1890 you didn't, and that came from the new york state .gov site.

jrhead75
October 8, 2003, 05:02 PM
Wolves in upstate NY? Where?

From the New York State Dept of Environmental Conservation: http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/wildlife/endspec/grwofs.html

The history of wolves in New York is by no means clear, although it seems reasonable to assume thatthey were once present. We know of only one museum specimen of a wolf taken from New York State.
Since we have not checked the accuracy of that identification and are without a substantial body of physical evidence to work with, we cannot be sure how many animals historically reported as wolves were indeed wolves. It is possible that the animals we call coyotes were considered wolves by early settlers and that some portion of historic wolf accounts may have been attributed to the wrong species.

New York State's Department of Environmental Conservation has a long and proud history of restoring native species when it is both biologically feasible and socially acceptable to do so. It is not clear that a wolf population could survive in New York given the abundance of highways and our large human population. Nor is it clear that having wolves in the woods of northern New York would be compatible with the interests of residents or the farmers that live on the periphery of that region. For these reasons, DEC does not believe that wolf restoration warrants serious consideration at this time.

Don't remember hearing of, or seeing any wolves when I lived there in the mid 60s.

If I'm going where critters can kill me and eat me...I'm going well armed.

Keith
October 8, 2003, 05:12 PM
There are a few wolves in Northern Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota. A few more in the Northern Rockies, introduced from Canada.

There are no wolves in New York. It's hardly pertinent to the thread, but it does demonstrate your level of knowledge. Of course, you're entitled to have an opinion even if you don't know anything about wildlife!

Keith

citizen
October 8, 2003, 05:22 PM
OK GUYS; BREAK TO YOUR CORNERS!!!!!

Let's get back on topic before we're locked!

Obviously a sad, tragic, and stupid situation.

My only resentment of the results is the double standard for Rangers regarding firearms. Prohibiting hunting is one thing; survival another.

If the NPS is so Nazi and paranoid about armerd visitors, then complete the idiocy and CLOSE THE PARKS TO VISITORS!!!(:what: )
(Let's see how far THAT gets!!:fire: :fire: :cuss: )

jrhead75
October 8, 2003, 05:28 PM
My only resentment of the results is the double standard for Rangers regarding firearms. Prohibiting hunting is one thing; survival another. Nail on the head!

EJ
October 8, 2003, 06:09 PM
I've never seen a bear I didn't want to give a "belly ache" --as in above posts--

I just hate bears -- sorry:D

Andrew Rothman
October 8, 2003, 06:16 PM
I have come across some hidden camera video which explains how this tragedy occurred:

http://www.mytargets.com/downloads/salmon.asf

;)

EJ
October 8, 2003, 06:19 PM
Mpayne


I like that!!!

Thanks---:D

.45FMJoe
October 8, 2003, 07:25 PM
OK, I did a little research and stand corrected "officially" on the wolf issue. However, don't be foolish to believe that in upstate NY, or southern Canadia as it really is, there are no wolves.

Back to the original topic... It is tragic that he died, but he was playing with wild animals. The key being wild. But, in the wild environment you are just another mammal on the long list of entrees.

Bigjake
October 8, 2003, 07:28 PM
Joe,

i agree with PART of your last statement

It is tragic that he died, but he was playing with wild animals. The key being wild

thats true, the guy was stupid for beliving they wouldn't hurt him, but why no protecting yourself from things with teeth and claws when you are out minding your own buisness in the wilds.??:scrutiny:

.45FMJoe
October 8, 2003, 07:28 PM
Oh, and that commercial is one of the funniest things I have ever seen in my entire life.

Cosmoline
October 8, 2003, 07:34 PM
To clarify, now that I've learned more about the circumstances I would think that if Nature Boy actually had capped off a few bruins, he should have been arrested for poaching and tried by a local jury :D

After all, he invited this attack by encouraging bear to come close to him and not be afraid. That's bear baiting, albeit he was using his own body to do it. And as he would be the first to point out, bear baiting on NPS land is POACHING. Savor the irony.

.45FMJoe--did you ever say if you had a problem with the dual standard on park service lands? I'd be curious to know whether your notion that it's "wild land" and must therefore be free of firearms applies to rangers as well.

.45FMJoe
October 8, 2003, 07:50 PM
OK, Cosmo...this might take me a minute.

Where to start?

First, I love my guns and I love nature. I like going out into the woods and shooting targets. I would like to think the noise would scare off any animal that might threaten me. I also think everyone should be able to enjoy the outdoors...at your own risk. But you should also be able to shoot your guns in the great outdoors. Sure, people want to be protected from predators, but you are placing your life in danger by going out. It's like my caucasion Italian ??? walking into the ghetto. I might get popped. Thus, I stay out of the ghetto. Of course, they are just humans who have an ability to rationalize right and wrong so yes I carry wherever I go in case I have to defend myself.

As far as the Park Rangers, you must understand they deal with the most dangerous of all humans. I live in Hillsborough County but was talking to Pinellas County's only FWCC Officer. He said last year they had 3 of the FBI's top 10 in their woods. Where do criminals flee too? The woods. Thus, those Rangers need to be armed to the teeth to deal with some seriously sick mofros. On that note, following that thinking, the common folk visiting should be able to defend themselves from the psychos too.

No clear cut answer is all I can say.

TallPine
October 8, 2003, 08:09 PM
Where do criminals flee too? The woods.
Really ...?

They spend thousands of dollars to have a bush pilot fly them out to a wilderness park in Alaska ???? Amazing ..... :neener:

Maybe that's where Saddam is hiding his WMDs - in Katmai NP :D

spacemanspiff
October 8, 2003, 08:21 PM
okay, the bad guys up here dont necessarily flock to the national parks. they just move out to the mat-su valley.

up here, the only people going into national park/forest/whatever land are 95% outdoors people looking to enjoy a small piece of this great state. there is no good reason why some areas of this state that offer nothing but aesthetic pleasure should have firearms banned.

Roadkill Coyote
October 8, 2003, 08:22 PM
I suppose the interesting question is; were any cameras or tapes recovered at the scene? After all, the man was a videographer, and the incident apparently occurred out of the tent in daylight.

Bill Hook
October 8, 2003, 08:26 PM
TallPine,

You're kinda oversimplifying things.

There have been a few murders up and down the Appalachian trail and drug producers are moving pot cultivation and meth labs onto public lands. I'm sure there are more incidents in parks than this.

One of the places I feel LEAST safe is in the woods on public land. Enough so that I'd rather take my chances with a Grizzly than encounter some of the humans.

Anyway, bears, mountain lions or crooks are BOTH pressing reasons to be armed while in the wild. Too bad NPS denies us this right.

Cosmoline
October 8, 2003, 08:43 PM
I'm not sure I understand the answer. It seems like you're saying citizens and rangers should be allowed to pack small handguns and AR-15's for defense against humans, but not be allowed to fire on some bear that decides to attack them. I find this convoluted.

"okay, the bad guys up here dont necessarily flock to the national parks. they just move out to the mat-su valley."

Hey! Watch it there, mister. Next thing you'll be claiming there are more mullets in the mat-su.

griz
October 8, 2003, 10:18 PM
A Treadwell quote from the link that Steel posted:

"They don’t have much of a future. They’ll either be loved to death or shot to death."

It is ironic that he managed to use both methods to have two bears killed.

Roadkill Coyote
October 8, 2003, 10:42 PM
ABC news reports that there is audio from a wireless microphone (http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20031008_2395.html)

Apparently the nature friendly "just play dead" strategy proved somewhat less than optimal...

"They're both screaming. She's telling him to play dead, then it changes to fighting back. He asks her to hit the bear," Hill said. "There's so much noise going on. I don't know what's him and what might be an animal."
:uhoh:
The lesson is; deciding that you life IS worth defending at the last minute is usually too late

243_shooter
October 8, 2003, 10:50 PM
As my father is fond of saying.... "he was plenty dumb enough, just not quite tough enough..."

Play with fire, and all that....

Leo

Marko Kloos
October 8, 2003, 10:52 PM
I saw an interview with this guy from a few years back. He stated that he wouldn't ever kill a bear, not even to save his own life.

If you hang out with unpredictable predators, and you voluntarily make yourself food, then don't be surprised if you get eaten. I do have to give him credit for sticking to his convictions, however misguided I may think they were.

Mark Tyson
October 8, 2003, 11:05 PM
Yeah, I saw the same interview where the guy said he wouldn't kill a bear even to save his life. I wonder if those thoughts went through his head as he was being mauled. Must have been horrible beyond description - and his friend or girlfriend was killed too. I've heard of incidents like this in the past involving bears and people who thought they "knew" bears.

You know what's also bad? He would take video and pictures of him and show them at schools. I hope no kids get the idea that you can just walk up to bears like that. I know he was stupid but I still feel sorry for him. He became deluded by his own sense of invincibility - I guess that can happen to anyone.

And those Rangers stopped a bear charge at 12 feet! Holy cow.

Bears dead, humans dead . . . this whole thing is just horrible.

Roadkill Coyote
October 8, 2003, 11:27 PM
"I do have to give him credit for sticking to his convictions, however misguided I may think they were."

He defaulted on all credit for his convictions when he told his girlfriend to hit the bear, and possibly got her killed too.

:cuss:

gunsmith
October 9, 2003, 08:02 AM
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/nation/6970472.htm

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - The graphic sounds of a fatal bear attack were recorded on tape, Alaska state troopers discovered Wednesday while reviewing a tape recovered near the bodies of a wildlife author and his girlfriend.

The bodies of Timothy Treadwell, 46, and Amie Huguenard, 37, were found Monday near Kaflia Bay after an air taxi pilot arrived to pick them up. The pilot contacted the National Park Service and state troopers to report that a brown bear was sitting on human remains at the campsite.

After rangers arrived, one of them shot and killed a large brown bear when it charged through the dense brush. Rangers and troopers later killed a smaller bear that was apparently stalking them.

Trooper Chris Hill said Treadwell may have been wearing a wireless microphone that was probably activated when the brown bear attacked him at Katmai National Park and Preserve. The videotape has audio only during the three-minute recording.

"They're both screaming. She's telling him to play dead, then it changes to fighting back. He asks her to hit the bear," Hill said. "There's so much noise going on. I don't know what's him and what might be an animal."

Autopsies confirmed Wednesday that bears killed the couple.

Troopers recovered video and still photography equipment as well as three hours of video footage from the site, across Shelikof Strait from Kodiak Island.

Much of the footage is close-ups of bears, for which Treadwell was well-known.

Some scenes show bears no more than a few feet from Treadwell, co-author of Among Grizzlies: Living With Wild Bears in Alaska. Others show a more cautious Huguenard leaning away as bears come close to her on the bank of a river.

Jewel Palovak, program director of Grizzly People, an educational project devoted to bears, was the last person outside the park to talk to Treadwell. She said he called by satellite phone Sunday and talked enthusiastically about having seen his favorite bear, a fat female named Downey. "He wanted to make sure she was safe," Palovak said.

Treadwell, whom Palovak likened to Dr. Doolittle, had been in Alaska since June to shoot photos and videos of bears. Treadwell and Huguenard, both of Malibu, Calif., were supposed to arrive Tuesday night in Los Angeles.

Park service officials said they had long feared that bears would kill Treadwell.

"We all had grave concerns about what Timothy Treadwell was doing," said Joe Fowler, chief ranger and acting superintendent of Katmai National Park and Preserve.

Tom Smith, a research ecologist with the Alaska Science Center of the U.S. Geological Service, visited Katmai several years ago and watched Treadwell interact with bears.

"He was breaking every park rule that there was, in terms of distance to the bears, harassing wildlife and interfering with natural processes," Smith said Tuesday. "Right off the bat, his personal mission was at odds with the park service. He had been warned repeatedly. It's a tragic thing, but it's not unpredictable."

This Report Contains Material From the Associated Press and the Los Angeles Times.

gunsmith
October 9, 2003, 08:31 AM
"Dances With Bears"

We can only hope that Mike Moore takes up this guys hobby:evil:

stevelyn
October 9, 2003, 09:20 AM
I saw part of the interview footage on KTUU Anchorage where Treadwell stated he wouldn't kill a bear in self defense. Somehow after hearing that statement any sympathy I may have had for the two victims went out the window.
My thoughts.......DARWIN RULES! I hope neither of these two had the opportunity to pollute the gene pool with their "idiot" genes.

gun-fucious
October 9, 2003, 12:12 PM
"They're both screaming. She's telling him to play dead, then it changes to fighting back. He asks her to hit the bear," Hill said.

so this wasn't a "quick swipe and yer out" attack.

the unmannered bears were playing with their food again

do ya think olde Yogi caught a buzz from whatever nature boy was smoking?

280PLUS
October 9, 2003, 12:27 PM
two tiger maulings and now this,,,what the heck is going on with these people?

looks like even tigers and bears have bad days,,,

maybe he tapped the bear on its nose with his microphone and the bear just wasn't in the mood for that right then,,,

:what:

almost reminds you of those paparazzi shots where you see tony danza "accidently" wack the photographer,,,

"oh, i'm sorry. Did i do that?"

if he was ignoring park policy i can't feel all too sorry for him, just another accident waiting to happen, and he caused 2 of his beloved bears to be killed in the process.

yup, darwin AND murphy at work on this one...

Andrew Rothman
October 9, 2003, 12:30 PM
News story with video: http://www.msnbc.com/news/977560.asp

It's a shame the bears had to be killed. Still, "The condemned had a hearty meal!"

Matt

280PLUS
October 9, 2003, 12:38 PM
he looks kind of scrawny to me...but still, if your sick of eating salmon,,,

:evil:

Keith
October 9, 2003, 12:57 PM
http://www.adn.com/front/story/4118880p-4134149c.html

.....Troopers Wednesday refused requests to release the audiotape, but said it convinced them the two people had been killed by a bear. Speculation about whether a bear had actually done the killing had been fueled by Treadwell's oft-stated but unsubstantiated claim that he spent summers at Katmai to protect the bears from poachers and sport hunters.

"I'm their lifeguard,'' he told a reporter for The Davis (Calif.) Enterprise in 1999. "I'm there to keep the poachers and sport hunters away. I'm much more likely to be killed by an angry sport hunter than a bear.''

The Kaflia Bay area of Alaska's Gulf Coast -- where Treadwell spent most of his time in the state -- has long been closed to sport hunters, and Katmai rangers said there is no history of poachers killing bears in the area.

When bears die, they are usually killed by other brown bears, said park superintendent Deb Liggett, noting that 90 percent of the cubs each year are killed, and often eaten, by other brown bears. Adult bears sometimes kill each other there, too....

TallPine
October 9, 2003, 01:19 PM
When bears die, they are usually killed by other brown bears, said park superintendent Deb Liggett, noting that 90 percent of the cubs each year are killed, and often eaten, by other brown bears. Adult bears sometimes kill each other there, too....
Proving once again that most violent crime in the USA is confined to certain ethnic groups and neighborhoods.

:D

Keith
October 9, 2003, 01:31 PM
Bears kill each other when they reach a certain population density. That density varies depending on the amount of food, but in Kodiak and along the adjacent coast (where this attack happned) it's about 1 bear per square mile.
If sport hunters don't take the excess, the bears take care of the problem themselves.

Keith

TallPine
October 9, 2003, 01:47 PM
Keith,

So what you are saying is that the ban on hunting bears in Katmai is ridiculous, right? Not like the bears are going to live happily ever after in fairy tale land and die a peaceful death at a ripe old age, surrounded by dozens of their bear relatives.

Guys like Treadwell that attribute some sort of human morality to wild animals make me :barf:

I enjoy and admire wild creatures (especially the big ones), but I have no suppositions that they are anything but wild, following only the law of survival. To expect anything else demeans the wild animal, IMO.

George Hill
October 9, 2003, 02:15 PM
This was horrible...
Even a stupid granola-eating Californian doesn't deserve this.

I would hate to have to be the guy to listen to that tape. I don't need sound effects to help my own imagination.






*shudders*

Keith
October 9, 2003, 02:23 PM
Yeah sure. People killing bears IS a part of the natural process. Alaska natives have always killed bears. In this part of Alaska, natives lived in "barabara's", which were no different than sod houses found in Kansas. And every contemporary description of a barabara notes that it is carpeted with bear furs and that more bear furs were piled up as beds and bedding.

Do you know what baleen is...? It's a black material much like plastic, found in the mouth of whales. Natives would cut a piece of baleen into a sort of knife with a point at each end. They'd then roll this up like a coiled spring , wrap fat around it and tie it with a string until it froze. They'd then cut the string off and toss the frozen ball to a bear. The bear would swallow it and soon thereafter the fat would melt and the baleen spike would spring open in the bears stomach. After a day or so, the bear would die of internal bleeding or be sick enough to be dispatched easily with a bow or spear.

Hardly sporting is it?

Keith

RustyHammer
October 9, 2003, 02:29 PM
It's always interesting when people who think humans are at the top of the food chain realize they AREN'T! :eek:

Bill Hook
October 9, 2003, 02:42 PM
Hardly sporting is it?

No, but it gets the job done, particularly if you want to eat and have warm furs to wear. Trapping beaver, by drowning, isn't sporting either.

I think the modern method of giving bears a "bellyache" sounds a little more humane than my first thoughts, considering how they USED to do it.

saddenedcitizen
October 9, 2003, 02:53 PM
this, so................
I'll ask as delicately as possible -
Is there a chance that the girlfriend/woman/associate/whatever
MIGHT have been at ,um, 'her time of the month' ????????
Bears have an EXCELLENT sense of smell and I suspect
(have never TRIED it) that if you want to attract a bear,
having the scent of blood/bloody tissure around just
might do the trick.

As to some of the other comments -

The NPS policy regarding firearms is illogical/high handed/
elitist ans just PLAIN STUPID !
MOST of the little furry woodland creatures are FAR better
armed and more capable of defending themselves (nude)
than humans - don't believe it ? - corner a 30lb
racoon sometime (hungry or otherwise) !!!

Though sad -
This individual thought as many blissninnies do - 'If I'm nice
and kind and courteous and bear no ill will towards anyone
(or any creature), well, then they will be kind in return.'

This type of thinking (in Harlem, East L.A or Alaskan
wilderness) can GET YOU KILLED !!

Better stop now before I REALLY start to rant.

Keith
October 9, 2003, 03:04 PM
The bear attacked HIM before it turned and went after her, so I don't think menstrual bleeding had anything to do with it. There have been some studies on bears and menstrual blood and there doesn't seem to be any correlation to attacks. I think bears can smell the difference between wound blood and menstrual blood, and know they are not dealing with a wounded animal - which would set off a predation response.

What's even more boneheaded about this guy, and this attack, is that he won't use pepper spray either! And all jokes aside, pepper spray will work most of the time! But he thought it was cruel to use it on bears...

Keith

scotjute
October 9, 2003, 03:36 PM
I just came back from a trip to Yellowstone NP. Can still remember the young female ranger telling me with pride that Yellowstone now has more grizzlies than ever before! Rather kills my enthusiasm for venturing far into the wild. Park literature states that the park is for animals. Somehow the analogy of going to the beach and having the lifeguard gleefully tell me that they now have more Great Whites swimming in their waters than ever before seems to be an appropiate comparison to the comments about the grizzlies.

gunsmith
October 9, 2003, 03:38 PM
pepper spray will work most of the time! But he thought it was cruel to use it on bears...

Yeah, I see your point...his lack of caring (untill it was to late)
about his own (not his girlfriends) life led to the (less cruel?)
shooting of bear rather then ending the attack with the "cruel"
bear spray which may have taught the bear to avoid humans.
Not to mention the cruel negligence which led to the death of the woman.

semf
October 9, 2003, 03:46 PM
If you're gonna be dumb you better be tough.

Yep, Grandma's words of wisdom still ring true

Cosmoline
October 9, 2003, 03:48 PM
I think there's a rather enormous disconnect between the way Alaskans view the state and the way outsiders do. Posters here from the lower 48 have said, alternately, that it's too bad there are so many predators in the woods and on the other hand that we should expect to be eaten when we go in because it is "their turf." There's a notion that certain places are "their turf" while others are "our turf." It's a strange notion. My back yard is both my turf and their turf. The whole state is both human and bear turf, other than the NPS zones which have been sealed off by directive from DC.

Both posters used the metaphor of sharks in the ocean, which is bizarre. This isn't the ocean. I don't live in the ocean. There are bear here, and it's simply a question of co-existing with them. So I scratch my head at the notion that the bears should be a) driven out of all populated regions and b) left sealed off in small pockets where nobody is allowed to go. It's bizarre. The same "our turf vs. their turf" line of thinking leads BOTH to the NPS ban on firerarms and hunting AND to the slaughter of all bears in populated areas. I reject both approaches, and it seems to me outsiders are either like nature boy, wanting to hug the bruins, or take a "kill 'em all" stance. Both approaches come from ignorance.

Bill Hook
October 9, 2003, 03:48 PM
Yeah, I see your point...his lack of caring (untill it was to late)
about his own (not his girlfriends) life led to the (less cruel?)
shooting of bear rather then ending the attack with the "cruel"
bear spray which may have taught the bear to avoid humans.
Not to mention the cruel negligence which led to the death of the woman.

Leftist do-gooders lack the ability to plan ahead or predict the outcome of their actions, it would seem.

Keith
October 9, 2003, 04:19 PM
Here's a good laugh - look at how the British Telegraph summed up the story!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/09/wbear09.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/10/09/ixportal.html "The self-styled authority on the animals urged concerned friends not to worry and apparently added that he would be "honoured" to end up in a pile of bear dung. "I think Timothy would say it's the culmination of his life's work," Ms Palovak told the Anchorage Daily News."

This is good writing - they take the same lines quoted in AP and Reuters and string them together to make a very funny, yet understated, point.

Keith

RustyHammer
October 9, 2003, 04:27 PM
Among the last words Timothy Treadwell uttered to his girlfriend before a bear killed and partially ate both of them were these:

"Get out here. I'm getting killed.''

Words caught on a tape recording of the attack also reveal Treadwell's girlfriend, Amie Huguenard, shouting at him to play dead, then encouraging him to fight back.

http://www.adn.com/front/story/4118880p-4134149c.html

Mike Irwin
October 9, 2003, 04:52 PM
The Grizzly People website hasn't been updated to reflect the recent events...

Quartus
October 9, 2003, 05:00 PM
Leftist do-gooders lack the ability to plan ahead or predict the outcome of their actions, it would seem.


That about sums them up, whether it's playing with bears or politics.

SIGarmed
October 9, 2003, 09:02 PM
Common sense would tell you to bring something to defend yourself with. Are these people suicidal?

Well they were from Malibu, California.

kentucky bucky
October 9, 2003, 10:34 PM
I've seen that guy on the discovery channel and I always think "that guy is nuts" .............looks like I was right. Sorry for the girl and her family, but I have trouble feeling sorry for the fellow. It's kind of like when a daredevil tries to jump the Grand Canyon on a moped or something and breaks his neck. Oh well !!!! He was asking for it.



PS...wonder if we could get Hillary Clinton or Charles Schumer to go camping up there one nice fall day. :evil:

Keith
October 9, 2003, 11:20 PM
It just gets uglier and uglier...

The local paper is out and they have some more findings. The large bear was necropsied and is identified as having been the culprit. The stomach contained a large amount of human tissue and a tee shirt. The bear was 28 years old (from a cross section of the teeth) but was in pretty good shape for a bear of that age. It was not sick, injured or starving.
The smaller bear was eaten by other bears so they can't really tell if it fed on one of them or not.
The biologist wrote that the camp was in the absolute WORST place in the entire area! It was set at the intersection of a number of bear trails in a brushy area along the lake. The camp actually blocked access to the main trail around the lake, forcing bears to either wade out in the water or come through the camp.
The tape of the mauling was recorded during a heavy rain, so it appears to have been on Sunday night when the weather was particularly bad.

The tape is pretty bad. Both people are heard speaking on the tape (along with other unpleasant sounds) - Treadwell probably from a remote microphone and Huguenard apparently holding the camera with the lens cap still on. It seems like he was pretty badly mauled but was still alive and left alone for a few moments. He begins moving and speaking to Huguenard and the bear comes back and finishes him off.

The tape finishes with Ms. Huguenard screaming - and the biologist describes the sound as; "eerily like a predator call." Which indeed, it turned out to be.

Keith

Keith
October 9, 2003, 11:35 PM
Oh, I forgot to add - the cause of death for both humans is listed as "blunt force trauma" followed by dismemberment. They were pounded to death and then torn up.

Keith

Mike Irwin
October 9, 2003, 11:52 PM
"blunt force trauma..."

Hum... I seem to recall reading that a fully grown grizzly can bring its paw down with almost 2,000 pounds of force...

The paw's blunt, that's one hell of a lot of force, and there's no doubt that it would induce trauma...

gun-fucious
October 10, 2003, 12:31 AM
seems more like a dominance display rather than a preditory attack
Can you imagine the roaring this 28 year old gave Treadwell?


Ya know when Ole "Bart the bear"
would gape and yawn on cue?
http://www.mountainlight.com/AA-images/AA0615_320.jpg
Don't you be putting yer tent
in my path granola boy
or i'll give you the Shardik stomp

Quartus
October 10, 2003, 03:25 AM
To misquote Alice a bit:


Idioter and idioter!

NIGHTWATCH
October 10, 2003, 05:37 AM
But what was wrong with these people, that they thought that they could negotiate the laws of nature? :banghead:

Hey! gun-fucious! How fast do you think the photographer ran after taking that shot? :D LOL

Bigjake
October 10, 2003, 08:13 AM
only fast enough to pass his buddy holding the rest of the camera equipment :neener:

gun-fucious
October 10, 2003, 11:11 AM
nah, that was good ole Bart the Grizzly
he was a highly respected actor:
http://www.vitalground.org/images_photographs/bart1.jpg

http://www.vitalground.org/images_photographs/bart2.jpg

They had to dub in the roaring, cause Bart was trained to yawn.
his trainer did not want to encourage aggression

http://www.vitalground.org/bears/bart.html

taoshooter
October 10, 2003, 12:19 PM
I guess the bear may have felt that someone broke into HIS home and used lethal force to defend him/her self (and his family?)
- I can't really fault the bear or I guess I'd have to just politely ask anyone who invaded my home to leave or expect to be shot buy them.

:eek: :confused:

RustyHammer
October 10, 2003, 01:15 PM
http://www.adn.com/front/story/4127139p-4142019c.html

BEARS: Californians' choices may have contributed to fatal encounter.


By CRAIG MEDRED
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: October 10, 2003)


(A portion of the article: )

" ..... From what was found at the campsite in this bear-infested area, and other information, Van Daele said he developed a theory on how Treadwell and Huguenard might have died on Sunday night.

"We will never know exactly what happened, and it is somewhat risky to speculate,'' he warned, but in effort to lend some sense to what happened, he offered this hypothesis based on journals, videotapes and evidence at the scene.

"The most telling piece of information is an audio recording made during the actual bear attack. This goes on for about six minutes and starts with (Treadwell) outside of the tent investigating a bear that came into camp. It was obviously raining very hard at the time and seems to have been twilight or evening, judging from some comments.

"The bear attacks (Treadwell), and he calls for help. Ms. Huguenard opens the tent fly and is very upset. At her urging, he 'plays dead.' It sounds like the bear then retreated for a couple minutes but returned. It again went after him, and he begged her to hit it with something. She in turn screamed for him to fight. The audio ends with his sounds no longer evident and her screams continuing.

"Based on all the evidence, I would guess that this old, large boar had been hanging around the areas getting the last fish of the season. There was little else available to eat, and he competed with the sow for food. Although not in bad condition, he needed more fat for the winter.

"That evening, probably Sunday night, (the male) was walking along a major bear trail and walked by the tent. When he encountered Mr. Treadwell, the bear reacted and either bit him and/or hit him. When he 'played dead,' the bear left, but as is often the case, when Mr. Treadwell started moving again, and/or Ms. Huguenard came to his aid, the bear returned.

"At this time, for some reason, the bear killed and ate him. I suspect that Ms. Huguenard's screams, which sound eerily like a predator call, may have prompted the bear to return and kill her. He then cached her body to be eaten later.''

A predator call is a device hunters use to lure foxes, coyotes and wolves into rifle range. It has a high-pitched tone meant to imitate the call of an injured animal. The calls have been known to attract bears in Alaska.

The old boar that fed upon Treadwell and Huguenard -- and is likely the one that killed them both -- was estimated to weigh more than 1,000 pounds and had broken canine teeth. Van Daele doesn't think the other bear that rangers shot at the scene Monday, an apparent 3-year-old, had anything to do with the killings. That bear's stomach, along with most of its carcass, had already been consumed by other bears.

"In my assessment,'' Van Daele added at the end of a five-page memo, "Mr. Treadwell's actions leading up to the incident, including his behavior around bears, his choice of a campsite and his decision not to have any defensive methods or bear deterrents in the camp, were directly responsible for this catastrophic event.''

NIGHTWATCH
October 10, 2003, 01:21 PM
I love "Bart". :D Seen him in "Legends of the Fall" and another film with Anthony Hopkins. The one where they are stranded in the wild and he fights him with a spear..I forget the name of the film.

God, he was magnificant. How people can witness such a creation and not know there is a God is beyond me. :D

Bill Hook
October 10, 2003, 01:23 PM
IIRC, "The Edge" is the name of the film.

NIGHTWATCH
October 10, 2003, 01:32 PM
YES! :D Thank You.

Ivanimal
October 10, 2003, 01:32 PM
This can't have happened.

Everyone knows bear attacks are just figments of an overactive imagination.

They should have taken some pixie dust with them to ward off the bears.




PS: I like to carry my pixie dust in little brass containers


__________________


Pixie dust is illegal in California along with anythng else that is fun.

If only we could hear from the bears on this one. Oh I guess we did they ate their brother on the trail didn't they? Thats because they are wild animals! I love bears by the way, they're delicious. I guess we are too.:evil:

Keith
October 10, 2003, 02:07 PM
And elsewhere around the state...

Southeast bears cause usual trouble
NORMAL YEAR: A few aggressive bruins have had to be shot.

The Associated Press

(Published: October 10, 2003)
JUNEAU -- Bears in Southeast Alaska are not causing any more trouble than usual this year but some aggressive bears have had to be shot anyway, according to a state wildlife biologist.

Phil Mooney, with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game, said most of the problems are with young bears who "haven't found their place in the bear world."

He recalled two aggressive bears in Hoonah, four or five in Angoon and one in Sitka, which charged a veterinarian and ate his dog. Mooney said he also doesn't doubt a Tenakee Springs man was legally justified in shooting two brown bears in August.

Outside of Juneau, where black bears are commonly reported as a nuisance, other communities are dealing with brown bears that "don't tolerate people as well," Mooney said. The problems are worst where bears have easy access to garbage and food meant for people or dogs.

Mooney said Juneau has been doing a good job of restricting bears' access to garbage and other communities are working in the same direction.

There have been police reports of bears breaking into locked enclosures to get garbage. But Neil Barten, Juneau-area biologist for Fish and Game, said the bears' changing behavior can be linked to people doing a better job of securing their trash.

"People never used to have (garbage) enclosures," he said.

Bears who have learned to eat people's garbage can be frustrated by enclosures. When they pull and tug at them, sometimes they learn they can break into them.

"These bears have been around a long time, and, really, they are animals we're going to have to get rid of," Barten said.

This season, Barten has learned more about how bears live, and he hopes to learn more during winter. A female bear trapped while raiding trailer park garbage was moved to the wilderness and fitted with a collar that records her movements using global positioning.

The collar was supposed to pop off on Sept. 15 but didn't. Barten is considering waiting until the bear hibernates before collecting the collar and its data. He said the radio transmitter tells him the bear is staying up against Thunder Mountain.

Bears shouldn't be a problem for much more of the year with winter coming, he said. Depending on the weather, the bears normally go into torpor by the end of November and come out around the middle of Apr

six 4 sure
October 11, 2003, 02:33 AM
Lions and Tigers and Bears.....OH MY....

Hmmmm and people think I'm crazy cause I tell them even a pet racoon is a bad idea. Again, they are called WILD animals for a reason.

six

NIGHTWATCH
October 11, 2003, 04:39 AM
" Even though I try to be careful and prepared as I can be when entering bear country, I have had several encounters with bears over the years. I do carry a Smith & Wesson .44 magnum, but thankfully I have not needed to use it on any of my trips other than to shoot over a bear's head to scare it out of camp. I also carry Pepper Spray, which has come in handy a few times over the years." -John Kozub ~ Guide


At least this guy is living in the real world. :rolleyes:

Janlynn Expeditions (http://www.kodiakbears.com/mystory.html)

semf
October 11, 2003, 07:29 AM
I am apalled at the lack of compassion from this forum.Two lives were lost in a senseless act of violence. They were killed just for living. My god people two bears are dead have some respect. :rolleyes: :D ( it's a joke)

4570Rick
October 11, 2003, 07:41 AM
Live by the bear, die by the bear.:rolleyes:

Baba Louie
October 11, 2003, 11:10 AM
A few half-witted malapropisms come to mind.

A Fool and his Honey are soon departed.

Twit for Brains.

The right to Keep an Armed Bear shall not be Infringed.

Play Dead?, I AM Dead.

FOOD FIGHT!!!

I've got more sympathy for the Ursis who was just doing what he was supposed to do... and that other poor innocent bystander (3 year old male killed by those who WERE allowed to carry) who got to within 12 feet of his next meal (so close and yet...)

1 Bear per sq. mile! Yikes. A walking blueberry doesn't stand a chance.

Adios

Double Naught Spy
October 11, 2003, 11:12 AM
FYI -

Playing dead as a survival strategy is not one that is beneficial to the human using it if the reason for the bear attack is food. Playing dead works for situations where the bear's aggression is due to feeling threatened by the human. Once the threat no longer appears to be a threat, or after a little while beyond that, the bears will lose interest in the now-docile threat and continue on with their business.

Playing dead when the bear is attacking you as food is pretty much just foreshadowing to what is really going to be the end result.

Bill Hook
October 12, 2003, 04:52 AM
http://www.romomoto.com/darwinwantsyou.jpg

Mastrogiacomo
October 12, 2003, 02:53 PM
Kind of a sad story all around. I feel for the girlfriend but this guy was an idiot. Who in the name of Christ would try and act like the biggest danger with bears is not making an effort to understand them? Talking to the bears, thanking them for not eating you -- this is just plain dumb. For myself, I refuse to go anywhere into danger without a gun or two. You spend time in an environment where bears are found, you take a weapon. If you can't -- change your vaction plans.

Keith
October 12, 2003, 04:09 PM
It wasn't just the girfriend, apparently he has a couple of other deaths attributed to his silly approach to bears...

Forgetting to treat animals like animals isn't safe -- or even sane


MIKE DOOGAN
COMMENT

(Published: October 12, 2003)
A couple of recent stories highlight the continuing inability of some people to understand animals, or the proper relationship between them and humans.

One, of course, is the death of Timothy Treadwell, who was killed and eaten by a bear last week in Katmai National Park and Preserve.

Treadwell had made a career of behaving dangerously around brown bears: getting too close, touching them, naming them. He went into the wild with no protection against bears, telling friends he thought he knew the bears so well he didn't need it.

He also wrote and spoke a lot of nonsense about the bears, on one memorable occasion calling them "party animals" on a television talk show, as if they were frat boys in fur coats.

If this nonsense had only killed Treadwell, we could simply write his behavior off as suicide by bear. But it didn't. It also killed his companion, Amie Huguenard, and, so far, two brown bears. I'm sorry, but I don't know what names Treadwell may have given the dead bears.

The damage done by Treadwell's misguided beliefs is apparently not limited to this incident. Treadwell had himself filmed behaving foolishly and wrote a book about his exploits. According to one of his critics, this impressed a couple in Glacier National Park so much that they imitated him by going off into the brush and were killed by a bear.

And, God help us, Treadwell apparently spent some of his time "teaching" schoolchildren about bears. There's no telling how many others he had encouraged to be stupid about brown bears.

If you listen carefully, you can hear the presses gearing up to print the inevitable book lionizing Treadwell and his loony behavior. He's not without defenders. Joel Bennett, an Alaska wildlife filmmaker who should know better, compared him to Dian Fossey.

Let's see. Fossey was a trained naturalist. Treadwell wasn't. She was studying shy, vegetarian mountain gorillas and trying to protect them from poachers. He was messing around with some of the most aggressive meat eaters on the planet. She was murdered, probably by poachers. He was killed and eaten by a bear. So you can see how Bennett could think the two were alike.

Treadwell had been warned many times that his behavior was dangerous. He replied that he preferred to die as part of a bear's meal. But a tape recording of part of the fatal bear attack shows he changed his mind, calling on Huguenard to come and help him. According to the evidence at the site, she did and was killed herself.

If Treadwell went looking for death, and didn't like what he found, in his native state of California there are others who don't like what they find and threaten others.

Some of them plant bombs at companies they claim use animals in scientific tests. Others set fires at meat-packing plants. And a group that calls itself Gourmet Cruelty is liberating ducks to keep them from being force fed to produce foie gras. Someone -- someone too cowardly to claim responsibility -- has also vandalized a restaurant and threatened a chef over the use of foie gras.

Foie gras is French for fat liver. It is considered a delicacy. Farmers produce it by force-feeding domestic fowl, male ducks and geese. The practice has been going on since the ancient Egyptians. There is no evidence the practice hurts the fowl, which are going to be killed anyway.

So what's the objection? Like Treadwell with the bears, animal rights activists anthropomorphize the practice, arguing that since humans wouldn't like to be force fed through a tube, ducks and geese don't like it either.

That seems to be debatable, duck and goose physiology being quite different from human. But even if it's not, so what? Why do you suppose ducks and geese exist? To write philosophical treatises?

Nope, they exist to be eaten. If we don't eat them, something else will, even if it's only worms. And they don't have human thoughts or feelings, so trying to superimpose our experience and our values on them is as foolish as thinking you can live safely among the bears.

The animal rights activists have nothing to offer but vegetables and mushy thinking. They're welcome to both, until they act criminally. That should get them jail time. I'm sure they won't be offended by any foie gras in the stony lonesome.

Bill Hook
October 12, 2003, 04:32 PM
I've got it!

The solution to **********'s problems is 150,000 grizzly/brown bears, preferably hungry, to eat the tree-hugging granola-eating crowd that infests the state. :evil:

Keith
October 12, 2003, 04:53 PM
Just ship them on up next time we have a poor salmon run. We can drop them into remote areas as emergency rations for the bears...

Keith

Andrew Rothman
October 30, 2003, 06:02 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=575270

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