[keederdag]

I have only one battle type set ot optics; an old Brit SUIT for my L1A1; I would love to have a SUSAT, but cannot seem to get my hands on one. I am going to convert my AR-15 A2 into a flatop, and I want some kind of battle type sight for it, preferably around 4X with a cheveron/post style recticle. I would like it to be QD, and re-zeroing, but I'd probably settle if I/it had all other prerec. and did not. I think the Elcan is butt ugly (and pricey) so it's out, and most Trij acog's seem about $700 or more. That's a bit above my range right now. I hope to spend about $400. Anyone have any EXPERIANCED suggestions?:confused:

[Zak Smith]

I have two Trijicon ACOG TA11's (3.5x). I've also used a TA01 (4x). These will cost you between $650 and $880, so it's probably out of your price range. The Compact ACOGs should have similar quality, and you might be able to find one closer to $550.

My suggestion at your price point would be to buy a Leupold varible 1-4x or 1.5-5X and mount it directly to the flat-top using "Super-High" Leupold rings. This is a good setup for both quick stuff or distance, with the variable power. You can get the "Illuminated Reticle" version for quick sight acquisition. This is essentially what I ran on my 3Gun AR before I got the TA11.

The only problem with this setup may be the eye relief. If you shoot nose-to-charging handle, you may have to put both rings to the rear of the scope turrets to get the rear lens forward enough.

-z

[Jaywalker]

Lots of reviews. (http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/opticssights.msnw)

That being said, I've been happy with my Aimpoint Comp2 ML and my Rock River "base;" it attaches to the picatinny rail and is a picatinny rail on top. It's at the right height for the Aimpoint and still allows you to see through teh Aimpoint to use the RRA iron sights. Good setup.

Jaywalker

[keederdag]

ZAk, thanks but I'm set on an ACOG of some type; Jay, I thought the Aimpoint had no magnification?:confused:

[Zak Smith]

keederdag,

The only "ACOG"'s are those sold by Trijicon, INC. The cheapest are the Compact ACOGs with models from 1.5X - 3X for about $640, then the TA01 for about $660, then the TA31/11 models for about $880. I very strongly suggest the TA11 or TA31 (depending on desired eye relief).

They are excellent sights, especially with BAC (fiber-optic lit reticle) but are also very expensive -- count on another $50 - $100 for a good mount. I use the ARMS #19S quick-release mount which returns to zero no problem.

If a total cost of $770-900 or so is in your price range, go for it! You won't be disappointed by a TA31 or TA11.

If you need to spend less money - more like $400-450 including mounts, the Leupold is a good choice.

-z

[Zak Smith]

Here's a picture of a TA11 on an ARMS #19S
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/pictures/2003-09-18/19-sm.jpg

More pictures here: http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/pictures/2003-09-18-thumbnails.shtml

-z

[Colt1991]

Keederdag --- Another one to look at is the CQT. It's about the same price as an ACOG these work great for long range to short range. If you go to Brian Enos's web site and do a serch over there has been talk about both.

Zak --- Nice bra for the ACOG did you make it or does somebody out there make it.

Colt :D

[Zak Smith]

Colt1911,

At RM3G-Raton and local 3Gun matches I see a mix of CQ/T, ACOGs, and conventional 1-5X power scopes.

The "bra" or "ACOG prophylactic" as I like to call it was made by me out of a bicycle tube. I got the idea form Curt Monnig, the Trijicon rep at RM3G. The apparent size of the donut reticle can be reduced by dimming it. As pictured, it is as bright as without the tube. If I just pull the tube over the fiber optic pipe, over its end, the donut dims significantly which reduces its apparent size and makes precision shots at long range easier.

-z

[Onslaught]

After reading THIS THREAD (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=158932) on AR15.com, I wouldn't take a leupold CQT or Elcan if you GAVE me one... except maybe to sell so I could buy an ACOG.

It's SLOOOOW loading if you have a dialup, but there are several EXCELLENT pictures through the actual ACOG's, ELCAN's, CQT, Aimpoints, and several others showing the reticles and their illuminating capabilities or lack thereof.

I know it's not an ACOG, but the ATN Professional is a $200 illuminated 5x scope with Bullet Drop capabilities... I'm looking at them myself since I can't afford an ACOG either.

[Zak Smith]

If anyone here is interested in trying out the TA11, just meet me at a range in CO. I usually make 3-4 of the IPSC & 3Gun matches per month.

-z

[Jaywalker]

keederdag, IIRC, there is a 2X variant of the Aimpoint, but it doesn't draw the rave reviews of the non-magnified version. ("Comp2 ML" implies a model, not a magnification, BTW.)

I'm a big fan of the Aimpoint. It's sturdy, reliable, and the battery on the recent versions lasts about to forever (10,000 hours?). Notwithstanding its CQ heritage, I still can get sub-three inch groups at 100 yards, which is about all I can do with target aperature sights, also. With the RRA "Tactical Carrying Handle," you can see the iron sights through the Aimpoint tube, with the power on or off.

Jaywalker

[keederdag]

I actually own the ATN 5.56 drop compensated scope (model ?) it has a choke stlye rangefinder and seem's to work pretty well. It's calibrated for 55grn ball. When I said Acog, I meant a battle type sight. I'm still wondering about the Aimpoint Magnification? Looking through Shotgun news, I though I saw a Trijicon (Tri-power?) these were much more afforable, but I cant seem to find any info on them. I am not sure if they have magnification either; anyone know?:confused:

[Zak Smith]

The Trijicon TriPower scope hasn't quite filtered through the distribution channels, and I haven't seen a review of one yet.

It's called the "TriPower" because the reticle illumination comes from battery, fiber optic, and tritium.

As far as I've been able to tell, it's only a 1X red dot type sight.

-z

[Onslaught]

I actually own the ATN 5.56 drop compensated scope (model ?)
Sounds like the ATN "Professional" 5x33L. They have a 5x33LU model now too that has interchangeable BDC cams for different calibers.

Here's a thought... if that ATN is on the rifle you wanna flat-top, you could try selling it for $150, which would put you up to $550, which is that much closer to a Compact ACOG.

There is a 2x Aimpoint, but it's still just a red-dot, and not very popular from what I have gathered in my searching.

[Futo Inu]

Well, if you're gonna put a "prophylactic" on your ACOG, why not just do what I did and put a Trijicon Accupoint TR21 1.25-4 x 24mm on, and then you have a nice IR scope for less money and an ADJUSTABLE amount of light input into the IR. Can also use standard (i.e. cheaper) rings. :) Drawback though is no option for a LARGE donut/reticle, I suppose, so not as good for CQB.

The Trijicon Tri-power is just about the cat's pajama's for rich folk.

Still am of the opinion that your battle sights on y'alls ARs are too high with those ARMS and similar mounts - chin gun not good. I understand they're see-through, but you don't need see through - you need to use your primary sight (ACOG or whatever), and if and only if that then fails, remove it altogether and use the irons. If I'm gonna spend $1,000 plus on a scope (or for that matter $500 plus), then I'm damn sure gonna have a beautiful spot-on cheek weld for using said scope.

[dbshabo]

I have to cast another vote for the Aimpoint CompML2. I know you want the ACOG but for the cost difference I chose the Aimpoint. If you want this for a battle type situation you should go over to www.ar15.com and read about the terminal effectiveness of the .223. With a 20" barrel you'll get good jacket fragmentation out to ~200yds using mil-spec loaded ammo, using a 16" carbine you're good out to ~150yds if I recall correctly.

At these ranges the unmagnified Aimpoint will do just fine. The fact that there is no parallex error just makes target acquisition quicker and enables you to get off the first shot quicker. As was stated above the battery life is way out there with the newer diode that is being used. You can bet the US Army put these things thru hell before they awarded the contract to Aimpoint, so reliability isn't an issue.

If you believe you will be engaging the enemy at longer ranges I would suggest looking into a semiauto .308. A magnified optic would be useful on one of these rifles.

I'm not putting down the ACOG at all. I have heard and read nothing but good about them. I just didn't see any gain from spending the extra $$ over the Aimpoint for use on my AR's.

Shabo

[Zak Smith]

Futo Inu,

What disqualifies the Accupoint for me is the eye relief. "4.8 to 3.4 inches" as published by Trijicon is way too much for an AR, for me. Even the 2.4" of the TA11 is stretching a little bit - as you can see by how far forward I mount mine. At nose-to-charging-handle, the scope itself will be only about 1/3 over the receiver - the rest will be over the handguards/float tube meaning a more complicated mount system.

Does the Accupoint have BAC?

re: Optic height on ARMS mounts, the axis of the TA11 on the Trijicon TA51 mount (thumbscrew) or ARMS #19/#19S is only a few tenths of an inch higher than iron sights on the AR. I don't understand what you mean by "see through"? The ACOG is designed so you can "see through" and use the existing iron sights on an A2-style carry-handle receiver. That's why there's a circular hole through the bottom rail of the ACOG. I think everyone here is talking about using a flat top receiver. In that case, an ARMS #50 flip-up sight will fit (folded down) behind/under an ACOG no problem and not affect the height at all.

-z

[keederdag]

dbshabo; THX, I'll check out the aimpoint; What sort of reticle? I'm guess'in just a red dot huh? I dont have any intention of shooting "the enemy" with it, unless your counting shoot-n-see targets, Heck I don't even like to think about shooting people; I had to do that a lot in an earlier life and it steals the fun out of shooting. AS far as 7.62's I have 3 L1a1's, 1 cetme, 1 M1A and 3 bolt gun's in it! I'm gonna keep the ATN, I really like it. I just may take it off the Long AR and put it on my pre-ban shorty or one of my mini-14's. I highy recomend ATN stuff, everything I've seen has been great quality. Mine is strictly calibrated for 5.56, I cannot switch cam's. :)

[Onslaught]

With a 20" barrel you'll get good jacket fragmentation out to ~200yds using mil-spec loaded ammo, using a 16" carbine you're good out to ~150yds if I recall correctly.

At these ranges the unmagnified Aimpoint will do just fine.

That's true, but remember that the AR15 is quite effective on roving hoardes of steel sillouettesand paper bullseyes even at 500 yards, and that's from the 14.5" barrel... So it is not by any means unneccessary to want a magnifying optic on your AR if you're not planning on limiting your shooting to the effective fragmentation range of your rifle. Shooting 500 yards with an AR is FUN! but you better have a good spotting scope. It's impossible to see those .22 caliber holes at 500 yards, even with a 14x scope.

[dbshabo]

I'm pretty sure I couldn't see .223 holes @ 500 yds with any spotting scope I have ever looked thru. I agree these rifles are fun to shoot. It's nice to hit what you are aiming at.

Shabo

[Zak Smith]

Shoot steel.

-z

[dbshabo]

Unfortunately my range doesn't allow anything but paper targets, except for clay pidgeons in the shotgun ranges.

Shabo

[keederdag]

God what I'd give to have a steel gong at my range; the O'l timers that run it won't let us either. Theyre a good bunch, so I don't complain; to them anyhow!:D