Swat 3


October 7, 2003, 07:43 PM

I was just playing SWAT 3 CQB by sierra and I noticed something that made me think....if you know the game, you get to choose between FMJ or JHP bullets for your .45 acp...so I chose the fmj and shot this guy in the face at about 15 feet...the guy fell to the ground screaming but nothing else happended, he did not die!! (For you guys who know the game, I did it in the level of the dad and son who are in posession of explosives and a hit and run, made the guy kneel half way in the bedroom corridor and then shot him from the last room)

What I started to think about is..If I shot someone in the face with a FMJ .22lr ..is this kind of behavior probable??Maybe just wounding but not stopping?? This is concerni8ng me a lot because once in a while I take my P-22 as my carry piece (I just love that gun!)

Any ideas or thoughts?? I just saw this post by P95Carry and .22's seem to act ok...but how is that in real life??

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George Hill
October 7, 2003, 07:48 PM
A 22 to the face?
It would depend on where the bullet struck. There are a lot of bones in the face... the .22 can defect and as luck would have it, most face shots are not fatal.
Unless the .22 slug penetrated soft tissue and hit the brain or brain stem or a major blood vessel... you just wounded the person.

October 7, 2003, 08:03 PM
It's true; .22LR is often unable to penetrate the frontal skull plate, which can be quite thick (thicker on some than others, mind you).

Remember, our bones can be both very strong and very fragile at the same time. The human body is quite amazing.

A .45, however...I've shot a steel pot helmet with a .45FMJ round. Big hole, cracked the steel, big outward dent on the other side (out of a 4" barrel). I don't think a human skull is tougher than a steel helmet (otherwise, soldiers wouldn't need helmets!).

October 7, 2003, 08:05 PM
Now this is the pic...I could not get the game to be exactly the same (AI) but this one is kind of like it..first shot is exactly left of the crosshair and the second one is a little bit higher...is FMJ that lousy?

Black Majik
October 7, 2003, 08:11 PM
I was playing Golden Eye (Classic game for N64), and I shot the other person w/ a AK-47 30 times in the head and he did not die! He went back and got body armor that bastard! :eek: :p

I also shot him w/ a rocket launcher and he was still running around trying to dodge other rockets. Sonna va Bish! :mad:

Its difficult to find games that are truly realistic. Let me know if you find one that is ;)

October 7, 2003, 08:14 PM
Remember, games aren't necessarily realistic. A few are, some more than others.

In REAL LIFE, most of the time, a .45 to the light socket is enough to punch anyone's ticket. That big fat slug has more than enough momentum, and in FMJ form will easily go clean through a human noggin.

Remember, hollow points penetrate LESS than FMJ, by design, so if FMJ doesn't penetrate enough, switching to JHP isn't the answer. You need a rifle then. AP ammo all the better.

October 7, 2003, 08:39 PM
There's been people who have been shot in the head with .22's and were dead before they hit the ground. Read up on the Massad some time. There's been people who were shot in the head with .45's and lived, without pemanent DAIN bamage. As well as .357 mags and what haveyou. Lesson #1 don't count on anything in a gunfight. Lesson #2 Practice, Practice, Practice......:D

October 7, 2003, 09:23 PM

As far as I know, the mossad only used .22lr to shoot people behind their ears...not very likely when I am being attacked, huh??

I get 10x more practice with my P22 than with my baikal (makarov), glock 25 and baby browning all added up! So I thought that maybe it could even be better....

Now let me get something straight: Bigger calibers have more enrgy, which makes marginal shots count more, isn't that the idea? But if shot placement is the most important thing...I can place a .22lr in the eye of a man with my P-22 at 10 yards (yes, I shoot about 200 rounds daily) but I can hit a head with 2 attempts from my glock. Which to use?

October 7, 2003, 09:26 PM
the above 2 shots assuming that the guy is about 25 feet and moving his head..

October 7, 2003, 10:10 PM
Here's the thing. Any caliber projectile will do for defense IF it is capable of penetrating deep enough to hit something vital in the human body, even if hitting from the side or an oblique angle. It also must be able to penetrate the frontal skull plate of a human forehead, even at extended handgun ranges.

Bigger calibers just give you a greater margin of error. More kinetic energy increases the likelyhood of more widespread, permanent tissue damage, giving your assailant a bigger wound to bleed out of.

But, a .380 from your Makarov (or 9x18) will kill 'em just as dead as a .45, if they both hit in the head. If *I* were using .380 or 9x18, I'd stick with FMJ ammo, just to assure adequate penetration, but that's me.

.22LR, however, will NOT reliably penetrate a frontal skull plate at 25 feet. If you're going to carry a .22 for self defense, I advise that you practice a lot and aim for the eye sockets.

The mossad would use a suppressed .22. "41 grains of advice whispered into the ear", as they would say. They'd shoot in the ear, or behind the ear, the temple, or at the back of the head; more vulnerable places than the forhead and face area.

October 7, 2003, 10:34 PM
There's a quote from some comedy...i think a Steve Martin one. Anyways, goes something like this:

A 22 will go in your head and rattle around a bit before it kills ya.
A 45 blows a barn door through your skull.

Need we mention the Pulp Fiction Car Scene?

Plus, yeah, vid games aren't too realistic on the ballistics. Even the famed Rainbow Six doesn't seem to make much difference between HPs and FMJ. probably does like one extra point of damage or maybe the FMJs only work on body armor or something.

October 7, 2003, 10:50 PM
Remember, hollow points penetrate LESS than FMJ, by design, so if FMJ doesn't penetrate enough, switching to JHP isn't the answer.

Yes and no. A roundnose FMJ round that hits a curving bone, like a rib or the cranial vault, shows a much higher tendency to "skid" or glance off than a bullet with a flat meplat or a JHP cavity, which may bite and penetrate. Terminal ballistics is a strange thing.

El Tejon
October 7, 2003, 11:05 PM
It depends.:D

October 8, 2003, 12:34 AM
A games a game & the writers of the game are trying to make it entertaining....don't worry about the realism (or lack there of) and just enjoy yourself while you play it.

October 8, 2003, 12:43 AM
The obvious answer is to John Woo it and use both. Try doing this while jumping down a flight of stairs backwards as it adds to the coolness factor.

My un-expert opinion is to use whatever you are most comfortable with. A .22 in the target is better than 2 .45s in the backstop.

October 8, 2003, 12:43 AM
That game was hard. I'd gas the BGs, toss a flashbang at their feet, and popped them full of rubber baton rounds. I cussed at them a lot. In other words, I was a bleeding heart and was throwing them major softballs in order to make them give up so I can get a higher score.

Then my partners shoot them.

JBTs! JBTs!!!! :cuss: :banghead:

October 8, 2003, 01:22 AM
You got a higher score if they surrendered? Playing the LAPD? Really? :o

Oh that's right, I went there...

October 8, 2003, 01:33 AM
Must...not...make...joke...about... "Which button do you hit to plant evidence?" :D

Sorry... sorry... :o

October 8, 2003, 08:24 AM
ROMCTTFTLMAO :p :scrutiny: :uhoh: :rolleyes: :D

October 8, 2003, 08:48 AM
"Okay, Button A and joystick left gives me the chokehold. Tell me again which combination summons my union delegate when the perp dies on me?"

October 8, 2003, 02:22 PM
Rogelio; I carry A walther TPH .22 in a Galco pocket holster, I shoot it every week a 150-200 rounds. CCI stingers print 1/2" at 10yrs, the best I can do is 4-6" at 25yrds OFFHAND. I love my TPH, Ive carried it for 15yrs, and lost count long ago how many 1000's of rounds it been through. Stingers Cronograph at approx 1100-1250 at 3 yrds, out of it's 3" bbl. At these velocity's they will not typically expand. I have shot, 2 wild boar, 1 javilina, 2 mule deer, and 1 caribou in the head from approx 2-5yrds. They all died very quickly. These were mercy shot's, after they were allready down from HP rifle wounds, so maybe this does'nt count? But The 36 grain stingers penetrated every time. I am not typically worried about shooting people where I am,but I kill about one Rattlesnake a week; usually too close for comfort. Thus the gorgouse, reliable, accurate and extensivly engraved TPH. I feel quit confident with it. Course I also have a 12 gauge pump, a browning HP and a mini-14 in my truck as back up's:D

Steve in PA
October 8, 2003, 03:49 PM
I just stick with the JHP......throw lots of flash bangs and CS :)

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