Two holes are better than one?


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WheelMan
October 8, 2003, 12:15 AM
My thoughts on over-penetration:

First, all things being equal a bullet that exits Mr. Badguy has done more damage than one that stops. It's pentrated further, damaging more tissue and it's made twice as many holes, the one in the back being somewhat larger generally. At the very least he'll bleed faster. And more importantly it means my weapon has the penetration potential to get through the guy at non-optimal angles and through obstacles/clothing.

So keeping that in mind:

What are the odds of me needing to present my weapon? slim
Odds of firing the weapon once presented? slight slimmer maybe
Odds of bullet once passing through badguy passing through other obstacles (in the case of home defense) and striking an innocent? Even Slimmer

Since 90% of the caliber discussion around here is about giving yourself a marginal advantage in a shooting situation I figure the marginal advantage enjoyed by knocking two holes in the guy is worth the slim chance that the bullet might extend out and do unintended harm. Plus the knowledge that you can go deep on the fellow at odd angles is worth the risk of going straight through him at optimal angles. If you consider that if you miss it's an automatic "over-penetrate" it makes even more sense.

Ok, so all that being said. It would still behoove you to be able to maintain the situational awareness necciary to hold your shot if the BG is in front of something you don't want to hurt, this is a tough, and blinding fast tactical desicion,which is why people who do this sort of thing for a living train so much.

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synoptic
October 8, 2003, 12:20 AM
While I'd agree that two holes are better than 1, killing the bad guy quicker is not worth killing the people behind him. If you're in an area where your neighbors are far away then by all means penetrate. Otherwise, I'll just fire 2 shots instead of 1 ;)

lycanthrope
October 8, 2003, 12:23 AM
I feel that the best bullet will expand and stop just under the skin before possible exit. Nothing is worth endangering an innocent bystander....

And, if you have to count on another leak hole to bleed someone out then they are stil shooting back and you had better be following up with #2. Second leak holes kill, but in self defense we need incapacitation with a hit. A bullet actually falling out the far side doesn't mean that.

P95Carry
October 8, 2003, 12:23 AM
Interesting!!! I just did a post re rule #4 ...... under such conditions.

The time available for decision making would IMO be infinitesamily small ......
and that bothers me.

I sure would NOT want to get a bullet harming an innocent.

But when ........ push comes to shove .. it's your skin on the line and I guess .... you just have to do .... what has to be done!! Hopefully, all or most here do train themselves, witrh carry piece/pieces ....... and so would hopefully be ''connecting'' well... but of cpourse ....... stress and adrenaline are not good companions for calculated and accurate shooting!!

I would always hope (but never assume) that presentation of one's carry piece might - could ... defuze a situation but we have to be mindful of the need to stop .. yeah STOP a threat .....

Maybe there is only one way we'd ever find out....................... :eek:

WheelMan
October 8, 2003, 12:32 AM
And, if you have to count on another leak hole to bleed someone out then they are stil shooting back and you had better be following up with #2.

I'm not couting on it, just hoping for that little extra advantage, same as the guy who finds the fastest 9mm he can stuff in the highest capacity magazine he can find. It's all about maximizing your chances.

If I pull a gun and fire it I'm endangering innocents, and If I have to tilt the scales, however slightly, in my favor or there, I'm going to tilt them in mine, if I don't why am I defending myself with deadly force anyway?

Now I wouldn't advocate blasting away at home intruders with a .300 win-mag in an apartment building, that would be reckless, but when it comes to living in a small town neighborhood and firing a handgun (my situation) overpentrating isn't something I worry about too much (i.e. I'm not going to give up penetration to avoid it).

Black Snowman
October 8, 2003, 12:35 AM
Well, I use a .223 for home defense. Good tissue and armor penetration, not so much in drywall.

I like penetration. I shot my 1st dear with a .340 Weatherby. It fell over and kicked twice. I recovered the bullet from the skin on the far side of the dear. It was a rear 3/4 shot and it went through the right lung, heart, left lung, left shoulder blade and stopped in the skin. I think that most people will agree that a .340 is way over-kill on a deer. With that shot placement I could have done the same job with a MUCH weaker round and not pulverized many pounds of good meat. However, if the idea is to stop something. That was stopped. Instantly and completely. Had it been an attacker, taking out a shoulder blade would have at least rendered an entire limb useless.

In the realm of self defence, shattering someone's shoulder blade after piercing a lung can only be a good thing. Plus there's leather jackets, limbs or items in the way, etc . . .

Penetration is nessisary to reach organs and the CNS to cause major damage, expansion just makes damage MORE major. On a deflecting bone hit a low penetration round may just make a large flesh wound but a high penetration round could turn that bone into useless and damaging fragments.

So as I said, I'm all for the penetration, but mushrooming is nice if I can have it too :)

Standing Wolf
October 8, 2003, 12:49 AM
I have a hunch a bullet that goes all the way through a bad guy isn't going to have enough energy left to do much damage. I'm sure it's been known to happen; on the whole, however, I'd guess it's extremely unlikely.

10-Ring
October 8, 2003, 01:30 AM
Yeah, I've got no problem w/ putting 2 holes in a BG, but if it had any chance of causing a 3rd hole in someone else, I'd be a little more careful.

C.R.Sam
October 8, 2003, 02:21 AM
If I have to shoot to stop somebody, I would like to do it with the most gun I can handle well. A bit better chance of a quick stop.

Sam

DontShootMe
October 8, 2003, 02:33 AM
Who's gonna carry FMJ's ???

It's either JHP's or EFMJ's

or if Revo then add wadcutters as well

Lone_Gunman
October 8, 2003, 02:33 AM
To all you guys who are fretting about over-penetration, I have a question...

Do you think there is any chance you might actually miss the bad guy entirely during a gunfight?

If the answer to this question is "yes", then you can stop worrying about overpenetrating, and start worrying about hitting a bystander with a bullet moving at full velocity.

You are more likely to hurt a bystander with a miss than with a bullet that overpenetrates.

WheelMan
October 8, 2003, 04:00 AM
On the FMJ vs HP issue I see it like this.


Handgun bullet velocities are low enough that mechanical crushing is a much more significant wounding effect than shock propagation. Since that's the case, the most critical thing about the bullet that comes out of your gun is that is smashes something important to the badguy. Luckily for badguys most of the more important things are surrounded by relatively non-important things. Our bullet must get through all this mess to get to something critical.

Now there is no better penetration than clean through, and the ideal round (from a penetration standpoint) would be able to drill a hole through a human from every possible angle (i.e. shoot him in the heel and it comes out the top of his head). Of course that's not going to be an ideal round in general as it's probably going to be hard to control and render you deaf and whatnot, but it illustrates that the most important factor for our bullets performance is that it actually gets to something important.

Expansion is icing on the cake.

If I have a handgun that shooting FMJ's can "clean through" a human torso from any reasonable defensive angle then you might say I have some "energy to burn." My bullet can do more work than I need it to, so to recover a bit of that extra energy I can make an expanding bullet so that I'm driving a bigger hole in the guy. The important thing is that I shouldn't sacrifice penetration for expansion, expansion is not critical to stopping, but penetration is. Expansion is just an extra perk of firing a round that is more powerful that it needs to be from a pure penetration standpoint.

So basically the more powerful your round is the more you can afford to burn on expansion. If I used a .32 or light 9mm load I'd use FMJ to make sure I was getting through to vitals, if I were going to use a .44 I could have a highly expanding bullet but the speed and weight of the .44 will make sure it still driven deep.

Of course it's never as simple as that.

BluesBear
October 8, 2003, 04:02 AM
Let's say you fire your weapon at a BG using a 125gr bullet.

And lets say that it hits the BG at the velocity of 1130 fps with an energy level of 354 ft/lbs.
Good so far.

But it exits said BG at 201 fps with an energy of 179 ft/lbs
Not so good.

That means the BG has "absorbed" 175 ft/lb of energy*.
Well it's better than a miss.

This also means that if someone is standing close enough to be hit by that "spent" bullet they could concievabily be wounded just as severely.
Not good at all.

Wouldn't it be better if the same BG absorbed ALL 354ft/lbs?
Most definately!

Personally I want to dump as much energy as possible inside my target.

Exit holes are only larger if the bullet has expanded. If the bullet expands properly then the chances are it will not exit.



Two holes ARE better than one... that's why they invented the double tap.





*By the way .380 has an energy level of 160 ft/lbs at 50 yards!

asiparks
October 8, 2003, 04:08 AM
Could be barking up the wrong end of the dog here, but in cases where the bullet doesn't exit, isn't it cheerfully richocheting around inside, bouncing of bones and causing multiple wound channels as fragments of bullet and bone go whizzing off in different directions ?

Maybe I watch too much CSI :D

WheelMan
October 8, 2003, 04:09 AM
Wouldn't it be better if the same BG absorbed ALL 354ft/lbs?

No, it would be better if he had a big gap where his spinal cord should be.

People don't have hitpoints and his guts don't care how many joules the bullet spent ripping a hole through them, only that the hole is there.

I'd like somebody to explain this "energy absorbed" thing to me. I'm going to assume you're talking about heating up his innards or something , because after you've knocked a hole in him what else is there to do?

If people died from absorbing energy... well we'd all be dead, especially sunbathers :)

sm
October 8, 2003, 04:13 AM
Stop Immediate Threat, Use Enough Gun, If two holes happen due to one quick accurate hit...stuff happens, rule 4 is there for such...

BluesBear
October 8, 2003, 04:31 AM
No, it would be better if he had a big gap where his spinal cord should be.
True, the last guy I shot in the spine dropped like a bag of rocks. But he didn't die. The upper one third of him still works.
Exit wound was same size as entry and they tried to say I shot him in the back. But the shirt button they found ½ way through him proved different.

If people died from absorbing energy... well we'd all be dead,
especially sunbathers
I'd wager that more people die each year in America from Melaoma than from gunshot wounds.


Let me restate my position here for those who don't get it.

I want EVERYTHING I dump into the BG to STAY inside the BG.

caz223
October 8, 2003, 09:17 AM
Energy is nice to wound/incapitate.
Short of a CNS hit, where energy doesn't matter, the other types of hit DO matter.
Shoot a gallon jug full of water at 25 yards with a .45 colt 250 grain projectile moving at 900 FPS. Big hole in water jug. Water leaking out, prolly a little less than half full, unless shot in the bottom.

Now shoot a gallon jug full of water with a .44 mag 240 grain projectile at 1600 FPS.
Water jug ripped open, contents of jug spilled almost instantly. Jug empty.

Your flesh is made of 98% water.
Barring a CNS hit, you want to disorganize organized matter, cause shock, and trauma, and generally rip the water jug open as much as possible.
Lots of energy helps out.
FPS also helps out opening up hollow points, causing them to stick around, and NOT exit.
Bullets that are too heavy will cause exessive penetration.
Balancing bullet weight and FPS are important in figuring out the correct formula to achieve optimal results without injuring innocent bystanders.

lycanthrope
October 8, 2003, 09:42 AM
Any of you hunt? Compare the Barnes X to the Nosler Ballistic Tip. The Barenes penetrates anything and petals back nicely, but animals have a tendancy to run a few yards. Now, use a Ballistic Tip at high velocity and you have a small hand grenade on impact (but many hunters won't use them for the damage they cause to meat). Deer drops like a sack of wet cement with a decent hit. Maximum tissue disruption is necessary to anchor someone quickly. If you had an ounce of lead to throw into someone would you do it from a pistol or a shotgun?

Obiwan
October 8, 2003, 10:36 AM
Not even worth worrying about.

Smoke
October 8, 2003, 11:07 AM
all things being equal a bullet that exits Mr. Badguy has done more damage than one that stops

Agree whole heartedly. Thats why I fire 2 rounds before assessing. (4 holes)



I feel that the best bullet will expand and stop just under the skin before possible exit

I feel the best bullet will expand and exit the body with full velocity and fall harmlessly to the ground .02 inches from the exit wound.



I have a hunch a bullet that goes all the way through a bad guy isn't going to have enough energy left to do much damage. I'm sure it's been known to happen; on the whole, however, I'd guess it's extremely unlikely.

That smells suspiciously of common sense....whats that doing in a thread of this nature. Don't you know this is an emotional subject!



Do you think there is any chance you might actually miss the bad guy entirely during a gunfight?

You are more likely to hurt a bystander with a miss than with a bullet that overpenetrates.

Now quit that! I said: "No Common Sense Here!"



Not even worth worrying about.

Hmmm...this reeks of truth.

Shoot until the threat stops. No matter how many rounds it takes of whatever super duper ballistic-tactical-HP-Talon-Sabre-FMJ bullet you have in the gun. If you over penetrate (think low outside gut) and hit an innocent bystander; finish stopping the threat and apply first aid to the injured.

When someone is pointing a gun at you, and maybe even firing it at you - I think any consideration to over penetration or knowing your back stop is gonna fly out the window.

My $.02

synoptic
October 8, 2003, 12:45 PM
When you miss the BG you have 100% over penetration. Now you have a bullet flying through the air waiting to lose velocity and fall to the ground, or run into something. A bullet designed to expand such as a JHP, first off, will lose velocity much faster than an FMJ due to it's hollow nose causing more drag. Second, if it does strike something, such as a wall or whatnot the bullet will expand and lose energy at a much quicker rate than one that did not expand and just penetrated.

Now for energy, while it is true humans do not have "Hit Points", the more energy absorbed quickly by the body the more damage will be done in the form of shock, heat, etc... Why does getting punched hurt? Because your body is absorbing the energy of the other person's fist. The harder the punch the more damage. Same with a bullet, the harder the bullet hits you the more energy it is leaving behind. If a bullet stops and leaves you with all its energy that will be the hardest hit. IIRC the reason the military went to .45's back in the day was because the 9mm's were going straight through the indians and not leaving enough energy behind.

Shawn Dodson
October 8, 2003, 04:28 PM
Does an exit wound facilitate faster bleeding?

Not really.

Most bleeding from handgun wounds to the torso is internal.

Choose a bullet that consistently penetrates to vital depths, 12-16". It provides a balance between adequate penetration and reliable expansion to optimize wounding potential.

BluesBear
October 8, 2003, 05:02 PM
First, all things being equal a bullet that exits Mr. Badguy has done more damage than one that stops.
Do you believe everything you see in Hollywood movies or just this myth?

I have a hunch a bullet that goes all the way through a bad guy isn't going to have enough energy left to do much damage.
So you'd be willing to stand on the other side of a BG or a gelatin block and test this opinion?

:rolleyes:




Barring a CNS hit, you want to disorganize organized matter, cause shock, and trauma, and generally rip the water jug open as much as possible.
Amen brother, Amen!

horge
October 8, 2003, 09:40 PM
With the odd exception, no one's really arguing.
Bigger disruption, better stoppage.


The real question seems to be:

Is the benefit that produces overpenetration worth the risk of harming innocents?

There should be no argument that we should do our utmost to spare innocents from risk.

We're here to save lives, including our own, not to take them carelessly-- that's the whole argument of gun-grabbers, no? That gun owners are selfish, careless and reck not for innocent lives put at risk?

As for missing shots or not having time to weigh the backstop/consequences.... well, those are valid tactical points, but quite beside the moral question.


Personally, I'd rather punch more holes on the side that's safe to penetrate.



:)
JM2P

caz223
October 8, 2003, 11:59 PM
But more energy doesn't cause overpenetration.
More energy causes hollow points to open sooner, and bigger, and in some cases to fragment a little bit.
I just love hearing about MCNETT's double tap 10mm defensive ammo.
135 grain nosler hollow point, at 1600 FPS.
No overpenetration here.
Any plenty of energy.
Now just hit your target, and you'll be ok.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/main_site/index.html

444
October 9, 2003, 12:26 AM
"Could be barking up the wrong end of the dog here, but in cases where the bullet doesn't exit, isn't it cheerfully richocheting around inside, bouncing of bones and causing multiple wound channels as fragments of bullet and bone go whizzing off in different directions ? "
Yes, too much TV. If the bullet doesn't have enough energy to exit the body, where does it get the energy to "richochet" around inside the body ?

"Now shoot a gallon jug full of water with a .44 mag 240 grain projectile at 1600 FPS.
Water jug ripped open, contents of jug spilled almost instantly. Jug empty."
Note the significantly great reaction of the target dispite the fact that the bullet didn't disipate all it's energy into the water; it exited and kept right on going, but the damage was done anyway.

"......a Ballistic Tip at high velocity and you have a small hand grenade on impact" True enough but has no relevance to handgun rounds. A bullet that was as frangible as a ballistic tip in a handgun would have almost no penetration.

"First, all things being equal a bullet that exits Mr. Badguy has done more damage than one that stops. "
I agree. You want air in, blood out. Two holes let more air in, and more blood out.

"I feel that the best bullet will expand and stop just under the skin before possible exit"
And this would be better than a depleted uranium tank round center of mass that would wizz right through ? How about a .300 Win mag to the chest ? How about a 1 ounce shotgun slug COM ? Those are worse than a round that stopped right under the skin on the far side ?

PCRCCW
October 9, 2003, 07:41 AM
I understand the supposed reason for this one...but completely disagree with it.

FMJ's making two holes in one person is not a good thing by any means...If you think the holes in the skin cause the bleeding are what stop the guy....Id have to rethink this one.

Trauma to vitals...and I understand youre saying the faster less- resistant bullet will cause more of a shock/wound channel because of the speed...I totally disagree with this one also. Ill take the bigger channel made by expansion everytime......

This theory has been shot down :rolleyes: more times than I can count on my fingers and toes by people alot smarter than most of us.

Another example of "The Geneva Convention" or the official group Im unsure of, ruled against the use of JHP's in the time of war. FMJ or ball rounds only for soldiers as they are "more humane" and you have ALOT better chance of surviving being shot with them.

We have Forensics guys, ER Doc's, EMT's on this board and ask them which is better at stopping someone.

Sorry for the rant....this is as old as the 45/9mm trap and I fell into it again.
:D

Shoot well.

lycanthrope
October 9, 2003, 09:16 AM
The whole water jug analogy has nothing to do with the human body. Water, for all intents and purposes, does not compress much. Thus, when it is captured inside a container the resulting explosion when it is hit by something is a factor of speed. Hit it fast enough where the water cannot disperse and it blows the whole jug regardless of bullet design. The fluid in human beings isn't compacted as tightly in the torso.

"'......a Ballistic Tip at high velocity and you have a small hand grenade on impact' True enough but has no relevance to handgun rounds. A bullet that was as frangible as a ballistic tip in a handgun would have almost no penetration. "
Incorrect. A ballistic Tip at handgun velocities does not rupture as violently. That is why they are not recommended on deer under 100 yards. And, even frangible bullets as made by Sinterfire (which turn to COPPER DUST on impact with steel) make nice large wound channels in flesh. They simply react differently to materials that do not compress as readily.

BluesBear
October 10, 2003, 01:37 AM
Water, for all intents and purposes, does not compress much.

The first law of hydraulics states that "You can not compress a liquid."

WheelMan
October 10, 2003, 01:54 AM
That's more of a hydraulic suggestion.


Liquids are slightly compensable. We generally say they are incompressible because you can only compress a liquid to a slightly higher density before the work you're doing on it phase changes the liquid into a solid.

caz223
October 10, 2003, 02:06 AM
Water jugs are not the same as the human body, yada, yada, yada.
I never said they were.
I'm saying that this sort of test is a physical demonstration of the effect of energy and displacement.
To minimize over-penetration, and maximize energy, the bullet should be moving fast.
Whatever diameter the bullet happens to be, whatever it happens to weigh, provided the bullet is a modern hollow point or similar design, velocity is the key to shutting down the target's higher functions.
Provided the bullet opens up, and is moving fast enough upon contact, massive damage will be done, and it won't really matter if the bullet was retained or had to be dug from the walls at a later date...

I also assume that if the bullet were already expanded, and had inflicted enough damage to shut down the attacker, that the projectile in question wouldn't have any useful velocity left.

c_yeager
October 10, 2003, 06:59 AM
Out of curiosity does anyone have a real-world example of an OVERPENETRATING (misses dont count) bullet seriously injuring or killing someone other than the intended target? With people getting shot everyday youd think it would be an easy thing to find.

trooper
October 10, 2003, 07:51 AM
Not a personal experience, but a couple years ago in Munich some police recruit shot a knife-wielding attacker in the head with a 9mm FMJ. She also killed the attacker brother a few yards behind with this shot. I think there were some more incidents similar to this one, I just can't recall them right now.

After that we were issued expanding JHP ammo. Mind you, this all happened in Germany where firefights are much less frequent than in the US. Therefore I suppose overpenetration is a real danger, not just a theoretical possibility.


Regards,

Trooper

444
October 10, 2003, 05:15 PM
"FMJ's making two holes in one person is not a good thing by any means...If you think the holes in the skin cause the bleeding are what stop the guy....Id have to rethink this one. "
You added the term FMJ, it doesn't matter what kind of bullet it is. If it goes clear through, that is better than going half way through. We are not talking about holes in the skin. The back hole indicates that the bullet completely transversed the body and thus put a hole in everything in it's path. This is twice as good as a bullet that only went half way though and stopped dispite the fact that the bullet that stopped "disapated all it's energy". This is what you refer to as trauma to the vitals. Put another way, let's say you shot someone with a caliber or bullet and the bullet penetrated one inch and stopped. All it's energy was disapated in the target. BUT, no vital organs or blood vessels were hit in the process. This is not better than putting a hole clear through the target every time.
The water jug thing: what I was trying to point out is that significant energy is released into the target whether the bullet stops or not. A lot of this discussion ignores the fact that we may have more than enough energy, like in my example of the .300 Win Mag to the chest. Just because the bullet doesn't stop inside the target doesn't mean the target didn't get plenty of energy in the process.

"We have Forensics guys, ER Doc's, EMT's on this board and ask them which is better at stopping someone."
I have worked full time as a paramedic in a major city for 19 years and about 10 months.
When we are talking about handgun bullets at handgun velocities, in my opinion and my opinion only, it is the bullet that goes through and through. We arn't dealing with a lot of energy here. Usually if a handgun bullet stops inside the body it is just because it ran out of gas without having started with much to begin with. It isn't like you are harnessing the energy of a rifle inside the body. In that case, you would have to stop the bullet somehow to keep it inside the body; the example was already given of the ballistic tip bullet. We have many times more energy than is required to completely penetrate the body, but we use a bullet designed to come apart and keep all the energy inside the target. In the case of a lot of handguns rounds, we don't have the power to completely penetrate the body and the bullet just peters out. Don't confuse this with containing some massive amount of energy as in the ballistic tip case. How about this example: a car is moving along at 60 MPH and hits a solid concrete wall: all the energy is dissipated into the wall/car and the car is completely destroyed. Now compare this with a car that runs out of gas, the engine dies and it coasts to a stop. In the first example you had a massive amount of energy and it was suddenly stopped with all it's energy being retained. In the second case you just ran out of energy. With a ballistic tip fired out of a rifle, you have a massive amount of energy. If the bullet didn't come apart, it would go through several persons. With, let's say a .38 Special HP, it just runs out of energy and stops; there isn't some massive release of energy into the target like there is with a rifle bullet.
"Out of curiosity does anyone have a real-world example of an OVERPENETRATING (misses dont count) bullet seriously injuring or killing someone other than the intended target?"
No. I have probably responded on at least 100 shootings in the last 20 years and I have never seen anyone hit by a bullet that overpenetrated. I KNOW it has happened, but to answer your question, I haven't ever seen it.

WheelMan
October 10, 2003, 09:59 PM
I probably should have left the "two holes" thing alone, it only clouds the issue. 444 is correct, it isn't the two holes that make him bleed faster but that there is wrecked tissue between those two holes. The real issue is this

If you handgun bullet/velocity setup is designed such that it will not exit the body when fired squarely at close range into the front of an average mans chest, than I'd say you have a bullet that doesn't have suffecient penetration. It's not hard to imagine an attacker being in such an arrangement that your bullet must pass through one or both of his forearms and his shoulder or upper arm before it even gets to his chest, and what if the guy weights 300 pounds and it wearing a parka? A handgun bullet that can reach his vitals in that situation is going to go through him in a more ideal shot (square into the thoratic triangle)

IMO to get the penetration you need to have a good chance at a quick stop from a varetity of angles you are going to have to accept that there will be certain angles that will go through and through.

9 m&m
February 11, 2004, 06:22 PM
In my opinion 1 hole is better than 2 because when a bullet passes all the way through something it doesnt give off all of its energy. When a bullet stops it gives off the rest of its energy and it creates an explosion effect (it doesnt really explode duh!:rolleyes: ) but if youve ever shot a deer where a bullet had stopped in him and skinned him you would see what im talking about . Everthing aroud the bullet is almost a liquid. I understand a pistol bullet would have far less energy but it would still create a golf ball size explosion around it

444
February 11, 2004, 09:06 PM
Again, I think we are dealing with apples and oranges.
If you had a massive amount of energy and also had a magic bullet that could be counted on to penetrate most of the target (adequate penetration) but not exit and use up all it's energy in the target, this would be a superior bullet to one that just penetrates everything and keeps on going. In this case the energy is meaningfull. There is a lot of it. Having it used up in the body produces massive trauma.
Now we take a medium or small bore handgun. We don't have a lot of energy. We might not even have enough energy to reach the vital organs if the body is at an odd angle, or if there is heavy clothing involved etc. The energy being absorbed by the body is almost inconsequential.
There is no comparison between teh bullet in the first paragraph and the bullet in the second paragraph. The fact that they both stopped inside the body doesn't mean that they both did a similar amount of work.

happyguy
February 11, 2004, 09:08 PM
No one ever survived a gunshot wound because the bullet penetrated too far. Some have survived because the bullet didn't penetrate far enough. What does this mean? Heck if I know!

But I do believe that you have to hit something vital and to do that you need marksmanship and sufficient penetration. Whatever sufficient is!

Regards,
Happyguy:D

Double Naught Spy
February 11, 2004, 10:44 PM
Wheelman, I think you may have some trouble with your math. A through and through is not actually two holes, but one.

I think what you mean to say that two penetrations of the skin is better than one penetration. A through and through is one bullet hole that represents two penetrations of the skin, entrance and exit. The concept is that you would get better drainage of blood out of the person, more chance for air to enter the person, etc. Of course, whether that matters is being debated.

The important thing for discussing a problem is first understanding the actual parameters in an actually representative manner. Math is fundamental as is problem orientation.

444
February 11, 2004, 11:29 PM
Math:
Take the person and count the holes. How many are there ? Two ?
Shoot a person with something that gives incomplete penetration. How many holes are there ? One.
The two holes even have names: One is called the entrance
wound (or hole), the other an exit wound (or hole).

P95Carry
February 11, 2004, 11:57 PM
Just thinking ... ''entry wound'' .... ONE hole. ''Exit wound'' .. ONE hole. Both connected by ONE ''wound channel''.

Double tap efficiently and at least a score of two!:p

Mil Novecientos Once
February 12, 2004, 08:05 AM
Do you think there is any chance you might actually miss the bad guy entirely during a gunfight?

Excellent question.

If the answer to this question is "yes", then you can stop worrying about overpenetrating, and start worrying about hitting a bystander with a bullet moving at full velocity.

Terrific answer.

You are more likely to hurt a bystander with a miss than with a bullet that overpenetrates.

BINGO!

Hitting the goblin and saving your skin are the things you shoud worry about.

BHPshooter
February 12, 2004, 03:44 PM
Interesting thoughts.

I can definitely see the advantages both ways... but here's what I think.

If you shoot BG and the bullet goes in-and-out, then he'll bleed out two places... However, if he runs off, since the bullet went through cleanly, he may survive without medical attention.

If you shoot BG with a nice JHP that stops in the body, if he runs off, he's got to get medical attention to get that bullet out. As such, it might give the po-po more of a chance to catch him.

Now I know this isn't a be-all, end-all explanation, but just an example. Besides, AFAIK, the issue isn't having the BG bleed out of two holes, it's the internal area of the wound. It doesn't even matter if the blood never leaves the body, if you tear up the arteries/veins that they run through, it'll ruin his day.

If I'm wrong, I hope someone will correct me.

Wes

7.62FullMetalJacket
February 12, 2004, 11:01 PM
Energy is relative. Speed is probably a better indicator, as is the mass and MEPLAT of the round. The published energies of specific cartridges are not the end-all to the truth. A 110 gr .357 magnum has more "energy" than a 158 gr. using the same load. Why? mass x velocity squared. Speed has more of a bearing than does the mass according to the mathematical formula.

Speed also allows the bullet to do its work. We rely on sufficient speed to open that hollow point. Speed also generates a larger temporary wound channel (that liquid state mentioned earlier).

So, if you have a slow moving bullet of light weight, the wound channel will be shorter and narrower. A slow moving heavy bullet will penetrate better, but will only create a small wound channel. A fast moving light bullet will make a larger wound channel and possibly exit. A fast moving heavy bullet will cause a large wound channel and probably exit.

A larger wound channel creates more damage to the vitals. An exit wound allows more blood out and more air in.

The bullet size also matters. Larger bullets tend to create more damage. Bluntness rips, sharpness cuts.

If this was an easy question to answer, then we would not have such a variety of ammunition. Even the .45 acp comes in 165 gr to 230 gr (lighter/faster to heavier/slower), then with some being +P for even more speed. Handgun ammo is not developed with boat tails for long distances - it is developed to fulfill the variety of needs of the shooter. Everybody has a different opinion.

My opinion: expanding through and through is best. Faster bleed out and the faster bullet creates a larger wound channel.

One thing that we have not discussed is penetration of objects that may be on or in front of the BG.

Overall, if you can handle it, get a .357 mag or .44 mag or 10mm or 9/40/45 Auto +P. Maximum bullet weight for better penetration. You can mop up the mess later.
:D

If you want to put all the energy in the target, then get a .380 :uhoh: or a .25 :barf:

444
February 13, 2004, 02:38 AM
Thefumegator
There are a couple problems with your argument.
"However, if he runs off, since the bullet went through cleanly, he may survive without medical attention."
Not trying to be a wise guy or anything but I believe a lot of this comes from the movies. Having a bullet pass completely through your body doesn't mean you are OK. Having a bullet stop in your body doesn't mean you are going to die. One isn't nessessarily more deadly than the other. A good example is the movie Scarface. Frank says to Manny,
"I hear you caught one on the job". Manny says somthing to the effect, "Oh, it's nothing, it went in and out". Like that is OK. If the bullet went in and out of your left ventricle, that isn't good. If it went through musle or fat tissue only, you very well might survive without medical attention. If it was a hit anywhere in the trunk of your body, you are in deep do-do without medical attention whether the bullet went through and through or stopped somewhere inside. The thing that matters is what it hit inside the body. External bleeding certainly isn't nessessary. It is just a nice bonus. Having more air enter the chest cavity is just as nice. Having a bullet in your body doesn't nessessarily mean anything. In the movies, the treatment for a GSW is to remove the bullet. They pin the guy down, give him a shot of whiskey and remove the bullet with pliers. Obviously this does nothing to repair any of the damage done by the bullet. It only removed a piece of metal that was not causing any harm. There is absolutely no reason to remove the bullet. Again, what matters is what the bullet hit, the bullet inside lying in a static state very well might not cause harm at all unless it is resting against something important.

mete
February 13, 2004, 06:54 AM
Some of you have no clue. You want the bullet to ,by some miracle, stop against the skin and not exit.There is no such thing !! Does the bullet do that if you go through the lungs without hitting ribs ? and the same bullet do that while hitting ribs ?? Do you change bullets for winter vs summer because of the clothing ?? The best thing you can do is to use premium ammo and practice so you can hit the BG.

lycanthrope
February 13, 2004, 09:49 AM
Tissue damage, tissue damage, tissue damage. Violently disrupt the most amount of vital organs.

That's all there is to it.

cratz2
February 13, 2004, 11:59 AM
Well, I live in a major city and am often around large groups. Over penetration is a consideration for me. Most of that came from carrying a 1911. Now I carry a 9mm with a 3.5" barrel and when loaded with modern expanding 124-127 Gr bullets, I really don't consider over penetration an issue.

For the general discussion of is a 44 Magnum with soft points better at stopping a human very quickly than a 9mm loaded with Ranger Talons, I tend to say no. I would rather have decent penetration (at least 10") and relatively reliably expansion. Now, I don't want something that only penetrates 4", but if the bullet is designed to penetrate 10"to 15" or so and expand (such as Rangers, Gold Dots, Golden Sabers), I'm happy and would rather carry those in 9mm or 40S&W than soft points or wadcutters in 357, 41 or 44 Magnum.

Sarge
February 13, 2004, 12:41 PM
and go hunting.

You need penetration. Expansion is optional. The bullet absolutely HAS to have enough momentum to reach, and cause significant damage to, the vitals. When your talking about humans, that includes the upright spine. This is the fastest stop short of a headshot.

This requires a bullet that stays together (whether it expands or not) and penetrates in a straight line, so you have sufficient accuracy inside the body. It does little good to hit your man on the third shirt button if the bullet can't be counted on to travel on through the vitals. The FBI/Miami debacle is the best example that comes to mind, and it illustrates another point. This crap don't happen when it's convenient for you, and you can't always pick a pefectly closed line of fire when the shooting starts. There may well be people behind your man somewhere. If he kills you and takes your gun, they will be at his mercy. Best solve that problem right there on the end of your nose, before you worry much about the price of tea in China. You have to survive the firefight.

This kind of energy needed to accomplish all this means that the bullet is likely to exit if it misses the spine. All to the good, as long as you don't ding somebody's grandma in the process. Two hole ARE better than one, and yes they count as two. Two for blood to run out of, and two for air to get in from. Air entering the upper-torso via unconventional routes causes collapse of the lungs, which is another way to take the fight out of yor opponent. This is all about making the other fella "sicker, quicker" so he has other things besides killing you on his mind.

I get a big kick out of the theoretical arguments that these threads generate. Shoot a half-dozen deer, go to 20 years worth of shooting fracases, and then attend or review about 50 autopsies. Nobody questions the effectiveness of a 12 gauge slug, but few seem to understand that it depends on the same wounding mechanism as a handgun does.

I'll stop botherin' y'all now, and you can get back to your slide rules and "one-stop shot" charts. But do me a favor. If your butt's on the line, make sure you choose a weapon that has enough penetration to get the job done- even under less than ideal circumstances. You ain't gonna "blow anybody up" with a handgun.

lycanthrope
February 13, 2004, 05:47 PM
I disagree.

I've killed over 30 deer in the last 15-20 years and after 10" of penetration, you don't need much else.

The Barnes X is a prime example. THAT bullet will petal back and roll through a moose, but most animals run several yards after being shot with it. When you are shooting animals that have a tendancy to shoot back, you need incapacitation. The Ballistic Tip is excellent at this, but is shunned by most hunters due to meat damage.

In a defensive caliber, I love meat damage.

Double Naught Spy
February 13, 2004, 07:38 PM
Quote from 444...
"Math:
Take the person and count the holes. How many are there ? Two ?
Shoot a person with something that gives incomplete penetration. How many holes are there ? One.
The two holes even have names: One is called the entrance
wound (or hole), the other an exit wound (or hole).


Last edited by 444 on February 12th, 2004 at 06:51 AM "

Wow, that is great 444. So I guess if I shoot a piece of paper, there are two holes as well, one on each side, one and entrance and one an exit.

Um, no.

The two 'holes' do have names, but they are names for different parts of the same hole and are not actually two different holes. There are two ends to ONE hole if it penetrates all the way through.

By the way, if you are 'counting' holes, do you also count the entrance and exit from each layer of tissue? So the wound has an entrance and exit of the first layer of front skin (2 holes), then layer of muscle (2 more holes), then through the lung (2 more), then back muscle (2 more) and skin again (2 more). Not including other minor tissues, I get a minimum of 10 holes for a through and through with one organ hit.

Sorry, but it is all one hole with just several media of penetration. If you are JUST counting what is on the OUTSIDE and count each is a seprate hole, then you have miss counted because of all the other 'holes' you didn't see.

P95Carry
February 13, 2004, 07:42 PM
haha .... I'll stick to good ole ''wound channel'' .. saves any hassles!:p

WheelMan
February 13, 2004, 08:04 PM
Double Naught Spy,

Do you really want to argue about how many holes there are? Nobody is confused about this, by the same token your face and your butt share the same hole too. But most people have agreed to think of them as seperate, same with entrance and exit wounds.

P95Carry
February 13, 2004, 08:17 PM
your face and your butt share the same hole too Oh my ..... http://www.bedford.net/design/images/smilies/lol.gif ... ROTFLMAO! Hole - e - moley!:D

orangeninja
February 13, 2004, 08:31 PM
Isn't the point of any hollow point to maximize energy dump?
Cause a larger shock cavity?
Displacement of fluid for sensory overload?
Essentially stopping a fight in what will hopefully be one shot?

A two hole argument is really a bleed out issue. He will bleed faster. Do you know how long it takes to bleed out with a severed artery? Too long.

A hollow point is for incapacitation due to shock...not loss of blood. Otherwise a knife would be 100 times as effective. Larger object + edged = lots of blood. Yes, a loss of blood WILL cause incapacitation but not as quickly as a tissue displacement will. FMJ rounds WILL probably be more effective at an eventual kill but slower in incapacitation.

Besides...who wants to spend 6 years in prison for involuntary manslaughter?:uhoh:

seeker_two
February 13, 2004, 09:33 PM
We've danced around this particular sombrero for awhile, but no one's gotten to the REAL ENCHILADA yet....:rolleyes:

The important part isn't how many holes are in each part of the body. It's "what has been damaged in the trip from the entrance wound to the end of the bullet's flight?" that has to be considered. If you're not hitting vital organs, then it doesn't matter if you're using the .357 Mega-Expanding DEATH RAY or the .45 Deep-Diving PENETRATOR OF DOOM.

Try this before you cook your Sunday roast: Get your power drill and a few PULLED BULLETS (not the whole cartridge...:what: ). Use a variety of bullets (FMJ's, SWC's, HP's, etc.) Attach a bullet to your drill and try to drill your way through the roast. See which one does the most damage.

Or, if you don't want to make your wife mad, read the results here...

FMJ's: Enter well, but the wound channel closes behind them. Acts like a hot knife in butter.

HP's: May expand, but takes more energy to push through. Hard to make it through.

SWC's & WC's: Cause a lot of damage on the trip through. Not a bad choice.

Try it yourself....:evil:

lycanthrope
February 13, 2004, 09:47 PM
I've got a good pic of a deer I shot this year with a Partition at high speed. There is only one hole. The entrance hole is an easy 6 inches across. THAT deer would have bled out faster than any two leak holes anyhow and the vital organ displacement was awesome.

I can post it later if enough want to see it and I'm not breaking any forum rules (I'll have to check).

WheelMan
February 13, 2004, 11:21 PM
What caliber partition?

lycanthrope
February 14, 2004, 01:11 AM
7mm 160gr.

In contrast, I've had 140gr Ballistic Tips go through 95% of the time at 3450fps.

Don't believe everything the gun rags print.

Mil Novecientos Once
February 14, 2004, 05:58 PM
http://www.mindspring.com/~ulfhere/ballistics/myths.html#energy

cratz2
February 15, 2004, 03:41 PM
A six inch entrance wound? :what:

And significant penetration?

That's pretty amazing!

Black Snowman
February 15, 2004, 04:47 PM
Terrific article Mil, thanks for sharing. Helped me get a lot of stuff I knew about straight in my head :)

lycanthrope
February 15, 2004, 06:49 PM
OK, by popular demand, I'll post a link to the large entrance wound shot. Be WARNED. It is graphic.

The shot was a 7mm STW with a 160gr Partition. The deer was around 20 yards away. This is not the norm for the partition, but does show that bullets do not perform as uniformly as we would expect due to differences in speed, sectional desity and design variables. Flesh is also a lot differnt than media. Hittin bone makes a large difference. The Partition is a good bullet. In fact, I had shot an elk with the same load a month before. The bullet passed through the elk at around 70 yards.

The entrance would tunnels in the whole way to the opposing shoulder, but did not pass through. The round did not break either shoulder. In my experience when deer take a hit like this they hit the ground without taking a step. This was no exception.

partition (http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jefwolfe/partition.JPG)

P95Carry
February 15, 2004, 07:16 PM
lycanthrope ... impressive ... to say the least! Now if you'd said you used a bullet containing a small charge of PETN .. I'd have believed ya!:p

lycanthrope
February 15, 2004, 07:32 PM
Thanks. I've been loading hot 7mm's for 18 years and have been around the horn to find what STOPS an animal fast. 100-200 fps difference really can have a huge difference.

Ballistic Tips have this huge negative stigma, but they tend to be much more stable than a 139gr Hornady. At speeds above 3300fps the 139 Hornady will explode. It will also make gutshot deer too sick to move where a Barnes X will leave you tracking half the night if the shots off (I've also seen some really bad performance from the Swift Scirroco bonded bullets with almost no expansion at low speeds which resulted in a heart shot kill that went 30 yards and never bled at all.....in snow). Shot placement is definately key, but having a safety margin of several inches can help in some instances. Of course, on the hunting boards you'd swear no one ever made a bad shot.........

Many argue with the meat destruction issue and underpenetration issue regarding deer, but I've found this isn't a problem with bullets over 120gr in the 7mm if you aren't shoulder shooting (even when they blow the fragments penetrate 10"). I've never tried 100gr bullets since I was skeptical if I could even stablilize them. My 120's clock at 3750 fps.

The implications for self defense you can make on your own. As I've said, meat displacement is my goal. My current defense load is a hot .40 caliber loaded with 120gr Sinterfire frangible rounds.

MrChicken
February 16, 2004, 11:17 AM
While reading through this thread that thought came to me.

"how big is your bad guy?"

Is he a 6'5" 350lb ex-defensive tackle that is not only fat but large boned and muscular at the same time?
Punching through his leather jacket, muscles and ribs to get at his heart and spine is going to take a particular type of caliber/bullet. Throw in some stereotypical gold chains, and 10-12" of penetration (geletin) may not be enough on this guy.

OTOH, what about a skinnie minnie? Shes hyped on crack and weighs all 98 pounds soaking wet, but her knife will kill you like anybody elses if you let her. She might not be 8 inches front back with brittle bones from years of malnutrition caused by seeking that ultimate high. Almost everything is going through her.

Once upon a time in thread very much like this 20 years ago a guy wrote something like this:
"My first three are HP's for close up, next 3 are FMJ's for shooting through cover, then a wooden bullet for vamps and a blessed silver one for werewolves..."

Penetration is good, expansion is good, placement is better, this arguement lives forever.

7.62FullMetalJacket
February 16, 2004, 12:15 PM
Mr. Chicken,

Welcome to THR



And thanks for the prose ;) Penetration is good, expansion is good, placement is better, this arguement lives forever.

Sarge
February 16, 2004, 12:27 PM
One thing's for sure... either of your bad guys/gals will go down if you punch a bullet into their spine. I guess the only question that leaves is twofold-

A. What bullet will 'take all comers' and accomplish this every time, and

B. how much more time t the range to WE need to pull off the shot?


Penetration- "The Cake"

Expansion- Nice icing for it.

Shoot well.

Mil Novecientos Once
February 16, 2004, 06:23 PM
http://www.firearmstactical.com./hwfe.htm

TamThompson
February 16, 2004, 07:36 PM
I'm thinking that if the BG is a 300-lb guy wearing a parka, my best option would be to exercise my legal duty to retreat, assuming I'm not in my home and he doesn't have a gun OR isn't holding one of my loved ones hostage. Anyone that large can probably be outrun.

I've been carrying five loads of JHP: Corbon Pow'rBall 165-grain (.45acp) followed by five of Winchester Silver 185-grain, and a spare mag full FMJ 230-grain Winchester White Box, but based on this thread I may consider moving some of my FMJ into the back of my primary mag.

happyguy
February 18, 2004, 06:39 PM
Deer are a PREY animal and are not what I would compare a BG to.

I would rather look at what the PH's in Africa carry to protect their clients from wounded PREDATORS.

So what do the PH's carry? Hint, hint, it isn't the newest superexpandingtitaniumplatinumexplodingsuperbullet. They rely on shooting skill, deep penetration, and big bullets to get the job done.

Now, I don't have any desire to shoot a pistol chambered for .600 Nitro Express but if you scale everything down to pistol size I think .45 acp FMJ is just fine.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

lycanthrope
February 18, 2004, 09:07 PM
From wounded soft skin predators they rely on shotguns and occasionally an AR.

The .600 nitro is for wounded thick skinned game.

happyguy
February 18, 2004, 09:57 PM
From wounded soft skin predators they rely on shotguns and occasionally an AR

Shotgun, Hmmmm.....even bigger and slower than a .600 Nitro, which isn't really used much anymore anyway.

In any case, when their livelyhood depends on getting their clients home alive, they go for big bullets driven deep.

Regards,
Happyguy:D

lycanthrope
February 18, 2004, 10:51 PM
A shotgun is slow? I guarantee a 12 guage is a lot lighter than a .600!

444
February 18, 2004, 11:13 PM
I think he means the slug is bigger in diameter and slower in velocity.

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