Model 12 Trenchgun Question


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starkadder
March 23, 2009, 01:20 AM
I recently purchased a Winchester Mod. 12 that has what looks to be the origional blue finish, is U.S. marked on the receiver under the ejection port, has a the heat shield/bayo lug, has an ord. wheel and W.B. in a rectangle stamped on the stock, the barrel has the three grooves for the screws(which are fairly wollowed out) and it is heavy walled, and the serial numbers match on the receiver and the barrel assembly(checked the numbers and it is 1943 production). now for the exception and question, there are no markings of any kind on the barrel, nor can I find any evidence that there ever were, but the finish perfectly matches the rest of the gun and it looks to be factory with no signs of ever being sanded or redone in any way. Any ideas? Thanks, David



Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!

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az_imuth
March 23, 2009, 07:05 AM
Try here:

Milsurps (http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=86)

Fred Fuller
March 23, 2009, 10:22 AM
Keep in mind there were trench gun Model 12s in US military service, but there were riot guns in service also- these had the same ordnance markings. The difference was of course the heat shield/bayonet lug that marked the trench gun.

Trench guns were more rare, and had more chachet- so there are a certain number of 'fake' trench guns out there, especially since prices on military shotgun stuff have gone so crazy. It takes more of an expert than I care to become to spot the tricks that mark a fake.

But I do have an interest in fighting shotguns, and happen to have a copy of Bruce Canfield's Collectors Guide To United States Fighting Shotguns at hand. This book indicates that military marked Model 12s should have a set of ordnance marks on the chamber area of the barrel as well.

FWIW,

lpl

az_imuth
March 23, 2009, 10:42 PM
I do have a M97 Riot that is U.S. marked on the reciever. The receiver and barrel are both stamped with the ordnance bomb symbol and both are serialed. Mine has a barrel date of 1942 stamped between the barrel and magazine tube just an inch or two ahead of the receiver. The date is difficult to see without removing parts. It is in well-used condition, but complete other than the buttplate. Great little take-down shotgun with what I'm sure is an interesting history.

mnrivrat
March 23, 2009, 11:29 PM
Does you gun carry the flaming bomb mark ?

If all else is correct I wouldn't be completely sure either way regarding the barrel. Most were marked. Markings varied between the US riot gun barrel and the US trench gun barrel. Also it was wartime - replacement barrels at the arsenal had the possibility of being unmarked or the possibility of the riot barrel being fit to the trench gun.

A Model 12 Trench gun is quite valuable, so fakes are also out there.

Tom D
March 24, 2009, 03:35 PM
The stock is definitely wrong for a Model 12 trench gun. Broberg was no longer Inspector when they started to make Model 12 trench guns. The stock should be marked "GHD" with an Ordnance Escutcheon (Ord Wheel) underneath.

The barrel should have a Winchester proof mark (intertwined W&P) as well as an Ordnance bomb on the top near the receiver.

Model 12 riot barrels require a sleeve or some kind of shim on the muzzle end of the barrrel in order for a USGI bayonet adaptor to fit properly. The Model 12 trench gun barrels are not as narrow at the muzzle end, so they do not require the sleeve for the bayonet adaptor.

Also, is there any evidence of the barrel ever having a sight bead? If so, it's likely a riot gun barrel.

How many holes are in the forward part of the magazine tube? Model 12 trench guns have two and riot guns have four.

What's the serial number? The Model 12 trench guns usually have higher numbers than the riot guns.

HTH

Tom D
March 24, 2009, 03:40 PM
One other thing. Model 12 riot barrels have a barrel band for the takedown lever/assembly near the muzzle, so they are fairly easy to identify.

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