Kinetic/hammer bullet puller


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bobotech
March 23, 2009, 03:28 PM
I have wondered about something. They give you those collets when you buy the hammer but they usually suck. Someone showed me a trick of using a shell holder instead of the collet in the hammer for banging the bullets off.

Is there a reason why you should NOT use a shell holder?

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ReloaderFred
March 23, 2009, 03:43 PM
The reason I wouldn't use the shellholder is there may be a slight chance of a round going off. The collet will release the case, dissipating the pressure from the gasses. A shellholder wouldn't release the case and would hold the gases inside the hammer head, possibly causing it to rupture, with pieces of plastic becoming shrapnel.

I've pulled a lot of rounds with a kinetic bullet puller over the years, and have never had one go off, but there is always that possibility to consider.

Just my thoughts.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Lazuris
March 23, 2009, 03:46 PM
Buy the RCBS die puller and its faster, cleaner and quieter.

TimRB
March 23, 2009, 03:58 PM
Regarding the collets supplied with the tools, could you be a little more descriptive than they "usually suck"? I have not had any problem with mine.

Tim

jcwit
March 23, 2009, 04:02 PM
But it don't work well with lead pistol bullets and you need a $12 collet for each cal.

Just use the 3 piece collects that came with the hammer. Go to your local hardware store and get a little smaller "O" ring that gives you more tension. Will work a little better, at least thats what I did.

bobotech
March 23, 2009, 04:29 PM
I have the RCBS collet puller and it works fine for jacketed but it can be a pain to setup when I only need it for a quickie pull.

Those collets with the o rings seem to not hold the rounds in place as firmly as the shell holders appear to do. I would setup the hammer with the oringed collet and whack it against some concrete and the damned round would slide free instead of the bullet. Thats why I have started using the shell holder in stead.

jcwit
March 23, 2009, 04:45 PM
Something is wrong with your collets. Or are you pulling heavily crimped bullets?

rcmodel
March 23, 2009, 04:46 PM
I'm just not understanding this about rounds slipping out of the collet, unless you are putting the collet in the hammer upside down.

The flat goes against the hammer, and the curved side goes against the cap nut. When you smack the hammer down, the collet gets even tighter when the round pulls on it due to the flat underside & curved top.

I just can't see any way a case rim can get out of one, except backward, in the event of a Kaboom like ReloaderFred covered in the 2nd. post.

rc

fguffey
March 23, 2009, 05:32 PM
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=50347


Starting over, when ammo is chambered and fired the case expands, if the case expands and never touches the chamber, how much pressure is created? some consider by wildcat case forming scary, I understand the body of the case and shoulder is going to blow out and forward .051 to .200 thousands, I know pressure is not going to increase until the case fills the chamber, the kinetic hammer does not have a chamber, forcing cone or a barrel for resistance, and there is a knock-out plug on the left side of the hammer that could double as a HUGE gas escape hole, bigger than a Hatcher Hole, I use shell holders, there is no way a shell holder is going to hit a high primer unless the case is small in diameter, use 'O' rings to center the case and do not pull bullets with high primers, this is the only time "Trickle Down" works, powder can trickle down through the flash hole and fill the area between the primer anvil and primer case, if the primer seats when hammered, the primer can leave the case at 700 fps + or -.

The knock out hole is designed to allow powder recovery, some have suggested a garden hose 'o' ring to be used between the hammer and cap, if we are concerned about building pressure and rendering the hammer scrap, I believe the 'o' ring seal is not necessary.

F. Guffey

Randy1911
March 23, 2009, 05:55 PM
I have been using a RCBS kinetic hammer puller for over 25 years and never had a problem. I hit it on a 15" piece of railroad track that I found. I did drop the lid once and then stepped on it, breaking it.:cuss: but I called RCBS and asked to buy a new one and they just sent it to me for free. They even included a replacement set of collets. Now I have a spare. Oh, I did have to replace the O-ring once when it broke. That set me back .25 cents.:D

ranger335v
March 23, 2009, 06:04 PM
Two facets of this question of detonation while pulling bullets with an impact hammer.

One, I would never say never about anything but it seems about as unlikely for that to happen as it would be for the heat in your pants pocket setting a primer off. Primers get set off by heat or impact. There is absolutely nothing to produce an impact with an inertia puller using either a convenional collet or shell holder. Thus, I can't help but suspect there is a LOT of missing information to the few stories we've heard/read about!

Second, if a primer did detonate I can't see it being much of an event. Fiirst, the primer itself would exit the case and puller through the collet/shell holder holes. That would release much of the intial pressure, without which smokeless powder is only a flammable solid. Then the bullet itself would pop loose, further reducing case pressure. The low pressure gas would exit the case mouth, rise along the case body and exit around the very loose fitted collet/shell holder and plastic cap. There simply is NO way any real amount of pressure could build up in the puller even if a primer should go off.

In other words, I seriously doubt there's much, if any, validity to the stories. It seems much more likely to be something the "victim" concocted to cover up some foolish stunt. IMHO. :neener:

Dean Williams
March 23, 2009, 08:09 PM
Ranger335v, did you read the link that fguffy posted? I read it some time back, along with the remarks put up by the original poster, (and photos are still up).

He was using an RCBS shell holder while pulling the bullet from the case. He shows the remains of the case after it fired in the puller. The primer stayed in the case, and it's pretty apparent from the case and the screw on end of the puller that the expanding gasses couldn't get out fast enough. The end of the puller made an impression in the ceiling that certainly would have injured someone.

I don't think there is anything dangerous about these things if you use them as the maker intends. It doesn't seem that they are safe using shell holders, though.

D. Manley
March 23, 2009, 10:21 PM
Ranger335v, did you read the link that fguffy posted? I read it some time back, along with the remarks put up by the original poster, (and photos are still up).

He was using an RCBS shell holder while pulling the bullet from the case. He shows the remains of the case after it fired in the puller. The primer stayed in the case, and it's pretty apparent from the case and the screw on end of the puller that the expanding gasses couldn't get out fast enough. The end of the puller made an impression in the ceiling that certainly would have injured someone.

I don't think there is anything dangerous about these things if you use them as the maker intends. It doesn't seem that they are safe using shell holders, though.
__________________
Dean W

I remember that as well. I was a bit surprised at the violence of the explosion as I would have *thought* there would have been more burn & less blast. IIRC, all the pieces of the puller and contents were never found.

For anyone that hates using the little collets, the one sold by Quinetics (http://quinetics.com/index.htm) are better. Their O-rings are permanenly attached with an opening on 1 joint. They sell a complete puller or, just the collets. Much quicker & less hassle to use.

1SOW
March 23, 2009, 11:57 PM
Off the subject somewhat; but is there any reason the top edge on the collet opening couldn't be beveled just a skosh?

Mine works fine but is a pain sometimes to get the (9mm) pistol bullet to feed into the collet.. I know the hammer cap needs to be loose--it was, the 'O'-ring keeps it tight to the case. The straight case mouth tends to hang on the sharp collet edge. A small bevel in the top edge of the collet should still let it tighten and make cases easier to push in.

Ya think?

liljohn
March 24, 2009, 12:10 AM
The jaws should be rounded-side-up, so when the cap is tightened, it actually squeezes the jaws into case head.

Try this--Take a piece of 4x4, stand it on end, and strike the puller on end of the 4x4 (like you are hammering the 4x4 into the ground). The bullet should come out with a couple moderate strikes, even if it's heavily crimped. You shouldn't have to strike it real hard; just about like driving a nail.

I pulled hundreds of heavily crimped and enameled military bullets once with a kinetic puller. I tried dozens of different surfaces (brick, plywood on concrete, concrete, anvil, top of loading bench, etc.)

In the end, hitting a 2x4 (or 4x4 for a larger target) was the very best surface to strike by a considerable margin. It also doesn't matter how long the 4x4 is--if it's 48" or 12", it seems to work just as well.

I think the grain resonates in some way to have the right about of braking or rebound for the puller. It seems the energy of the puller is dissipated or reversed quickly without affecting the bullet's energy, causing the bullets to come right out.

For an experiment, try the same hammering technique, only on the side of the 4x4 (instead of the end grain). You'll pound the snot out of it, and the bullet will barely move.

With a little practice, I could do 2 hits and have the bullet at the top of the neck where I could remove it by hand and not spill any powder.

jcwit
March 24, 2009, 09:30 AM
1sow the hammer cap should NOT be loose but tight.

rcmodel
March 24, 2009, 11:14 AM
There simply is NO way any real amount of pressure could build up in the puller even if a primer should go off.Think again.
It all depends on what you are pulling.

A rifle cartridge would likely just burn off slowly through the flash hole.

A pistol round would likely take the hammer head apart because the fast powder will blow the case before the bullet can get out of the way.

Uncontained cook-offs.
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/AmmoFire4.jpg

rc

drumz2129
March 24, 2009, 11:41 AM
1sow the hammer cap should NOT be loose but tight

I think he meant when trying to insert the round.

ranger335v
March 24, 2009, 01:47 PM
Two observations about the illustrated "cook offs".

One, the "rifle" rounds didn't rupture the cases. The (labeled) .223 ONLY lost its primer, even heated, the powder did't blow the cases. Which I feel sorta supports my contention that a violent ignition in an inertia puller is improbable.

Two, the pistol rounds, which we all know would be loaded with easily ignited, fast burning powders, DID rupture the cases. BUT, why? Surely, with any cook off the temp of the powder also rises, probably quite a bit, before primer ignition. I strongly suspect that such preheating would promote the already easy ignition of that fast powder AND GREATLY INCREASE its burn rate, leading to the case ruptures we see. No such pre-heating effect would be present with an impact puller.

Yeah, I saw the photos and some others as well. Still think there has to be more to the story than we know.

benzuncle
March 24, 2009, 02:19 PM
When I first had designs of reloading (15mo. ago) I devoured everything I could find online it without asking the first question; it was pretty much all there. (I was afraid to ask something that had already been addressed.) One of the threads was about this very topic - using a shell holder in a bullet puller. A number of people were quick to say they were using the shell holder in their pullers. Then one poster shared photos of what happened to him and an explanation. End of story. His photos showed the path the bullet travelled. He said something to the affect that he was grateful to be alive to share the info.
I became proficient with my kinetic bullet puller when I loaded my first rounds. It works fine for me just as it was intended. I have used it on 380acp and 45acp. The shell holder should not be used in a bullet puller.

fguffey
March 25, 2009, 10:08 AM
Starting over 11: the primer is fast, the primer will push a bullet out of a crimped case and into the rifling of the barrel without powder, with powder, the primer is the fastest of the two, the thing to keep with here is sequence, first the primer moves the bullet, then the powder burning creates expanding hot high pressure gas, in this sequence you do not want the bullet to stop in the barrel. The ideal sequence of events is once the bullet starts to move, keep it moving.

Starting over 111: In the beginning the warning had to do with a shell holder hitting the primer on impact and setting it off, it was made clean the shell holder could not cover the primer except on small cases. I suggested using 'o' rings from an assortment to center the case and prevent the case from moving,

Starting over 1V: Then there was the KA-BOOM: without confinement, there is no KA-BOOM, with the explanation there were witnesses, a crowd, family members, who hand loads in a crowd? Confinement? Look at the left side of the kinetic puller, look for an oval outline, if your hammer has the outline of an oval, Knock it out! you now have a Hatcher Hole, you can also use the knock out hole for it's intended purpose, bullet/powder recovery before removing the case, to confirm this, read the instructions!

I agree with RANGER 335V, I believe the man made a mistake that can be recreated, I believe he wanted to pull a high primer and was using the 3 piece colet that comes with the hammer, I believe he hit the floor, how many times I do not know, but every time he hit the floor he seated the bullet, BETTER, and then the bullet slipped out past the Colet, the primer hit the floor, first, in the sequence of events the bullet did not get out of the way for the expanding gas, and the man almost became a victim of his own undoing, or he picked up the hammer and hit the floor with the wrong end, he did say he was in a crowd, could have been a bright side, he could have been using a shell holder, the shell holder would have prevented the case with the high primer from exiting the hammer, not likely but the heavy hammering could have pulled the primer, the down side, the heavy hammering could cause the bullet to seat deeper in the case.

F. Guffey

oneounceload
March 25, 2009, 10:23 AM
Funny, I have a quinetics, (who makes them for everyone), mine came with one collet - I have pulled everything from small pistol to large rifle with no problems - just put a piece of foam in the nose so the bullet tip doesn't get smashed

1SOW
March 25, 2009, 09:52 PM
liljohn:

Sorry if I mislead you. I am talking about difficulty feeding a 9mm/straight case into the collet.

Post above modified

280shooter
March 25, 2009, 10:29 PM
I have one I used for 221 fireball all the way up to 444 marlin,

my collect went toes up last year,only for the 223 cases,for the little base cases, the metal,that holds the case broke away ,,its only a fine line,so when i would wack it, the case wouldnt hold.no matter how tight i made the top.it wouldnt hold.I emailed rcbs, told them when i bought it, ( like over 30 years ago.) they sent me a new 3 piece collet with the rubber O rings,mine had the spring wire,and it was free,,now on my body, it has a place to cut out some plastic, so you can turn the whole hammer for the powder and bullets to fall out,I also cut one ear plug in half and put it to the bottom, so it will cussion the bullets.when it leaves the case,
I also out a case that has glue on the bullets and set thebullet seating die up so it pushes the bullet in the case just a tad so it breaks the glue lose.so when I use the bullet puller, it removes the bullets easier.

fguffey
March 27, 2009, 12:20 PM
280 Remington, with the cutout. destroying your hammer should be as difficult as destroying a Japanese rifle, I read on different forums PO Ackley welded the barrel shut and then nothing, nothing was destroyed, forget the rifle, I want some of those cases he was using, if nothing blew up wouldn't that make those cases the strongest cases in the world.

F. Guffey

jcwit
March 27, 2009, 04:02 PM
I think you need to read Hatchers Notebook. Gives all the info regarding the strength of the U.S. Springfielf, German 98 Mauser, and the Jap Arisaka, and what it takes to each up.

BTW the Jap rifle was the strongest.

fguffey
March 27, 2009, 05:42 PM
I think you need to read Hatcher's Notebook. His book gives all the info regarding the strength of the U.S. Springfield, German 98 Mauser, and the Japanese Arisaka, and what it takes to blow one up.

I think I am better off saying I have never read Hatcher,s Note book than say I read his books and disagree, Japanese Arisaka is a trigger word, mention Japanese Arisika and the response is automatic, I have two complete receivers and the choice of 15 barrels and 64 chamber reamers, I will not chamber one in 300 Win Mag, the point? does the case fail or does the receiver fail, if the case did not fail, WHY? If the receiver did not fail but the case did, WHY didn't the receiver fail? Reminds me of this thread, mention Kinetic hammer and shell holder in the same sentence and it will not be long before someone says something about blowing your thing off, (head off your hammer) yes, leave you with nothing but a handle.

http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html

F. Guffey

jcwit
March 27, 2009, 06:17 PM
Just what are you trying to say?

Oh well whatever!!!!

kelbro
March 27, 2009, 08:58 PM
To answer your question... I tried the shellholders and noticed that they tended to distort the rims. The collets that are included in the RCBS support the rims all the way around. Since switching back to the collets, I have straight rims.

ranger335v
March 27, 2009, 09:21 PM
Back to the quesion of blow-ups with an impact puller. It just came back to me that some guy posted a question maybe two-three years ago asking how he could keep from pounding his down the wrong way.

Seems he had busted something like three of the screw caps and wanted help in not doing that. (Don't think anyone had any workable suggestions for him exept of maybe getting a collet puller!) Maybe he's also the source of at least a few of the KABOOM stories?

ranger335v
March 27, 2009, 09:23 PM
Back to the quesion of blow-ups with an impact puller. It just came back to me that some guy posted a question maybe two-three years ago asking how he could keep from pounding his imppact puller the wrong way.

Seems he had busted something like three of the screw top caps and wanted help in not doing that. (Don't think anyone had any workable suggestions for him exept of maybe getting a collet puller!) Maybe he's also the source of at least a few of the KABOOM stories?

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