[gburner]

Philadelphia, PA
The Associated Press reported today that local police supported by FBI, BATF and Homeland Security officers arrested a group of accused radicals known as The Founding Fathers. Federal arrest warrants were served on seven members of the group whose last names are Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Franklin, Hamilton and Monroe. A handful of others found at the scene are being detained indefinitely as 'material witnesses'.

Those arrested are accused of espousing 'rights' of citizens such as freedom of assembly, right to keep and bear arms, freedom of speech, freedom of worship and the right to privacy in their personal effects. Perhaps the most troubling of their beliefs is in the limited power of the federal government and the overarching right of individuals to enjoy 'life, liberty and the persuit of happiness'.

It remains to be seen if those arrested will recieve a speedy trial in front of a jury of their peers.

A federal officer on the scene was reported to have remarked, 'we're in a wartime scenario here. We can't have wingnuts like these stirring up the masses with their cockeyed view of freedom. Movements like this threaten the order of society and, if left uncontrolled, would betray the weakness of individual thought to our enemies'.

[AnklePocket]

That's good. Real good. I'll be keeping my eye on you.

[Rebeldon]

Awesome!

It's about time they do something about those radicals, man, you know! Can you believe how selfish they are, you know, by insisting that everybody else has to observe their rights? Don't they know how obstructive their so-called liberties are, dude, like, when there's a war going on. I mean, like, what good are you rights, you know, dude, like, when your dead?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[El Tejon]

Wasn't there an old "Bewitched" episode where Sam [mmmmm, Sammie, what a looker] brings back George Washington for some reason and he is horrified to be living under English rule again?

[Hal]

Perhaps the most troubling of their beliefs is in the limited power of the federal government Minor nit--- best leave Hamilton and (John) Adams,,,(2nd POUS) out of that mix since they were both strong supporters of a large federal government with virtually unlimited power over the States. Both worked long and hard to replace the Constitution in 1787.

hmm, come to think of it,,,,thread spill over,,,,
Speaking of shots that altered history,,how 'bout Burr putting one into Hamilton?


And yes,,,El "Nubile" :D, there was a Betwitched episode,,,but twas Ben Franklin not Geo. Washington.
hmmm again,,,one has to wonder about ole Ben and Sam, since Ben was a well known letcher the likes of which would make "Slick" Willy drool.
Speaking of "Shots",,,Ben ,,,ahem,,"shot" one into the daughter of his host in London during the pre-revolution period, getting her "in trouble". He had to flee the city to France in the middle of the night to avoid the father's rage. Gotta wonder if negotiations between the Crown and Ben could have produced a war avoiding agreement,,,,,? Nah,

[ahenry]

Minor nit--- best leave Hamilton and (John) Adams,,,(2nd POUS) out of that mix since they were both strong supporters of a large federal government with virtually unlimited power over the States. Both worked long and hard to replace the Constitution in 1787. Oh come on now! The federalist biggest thought of gov’t was minuscule compared to today.

[Chris Rhines]

Good thing! After all, the revolutionaries were eeeeeeevil terrorists, right?

-

The federalist government post-revolution was pretty small, but it contained all the elements necessary to lead us into our current state. Hamiliton, Franklin, and Jay don't deserve all the blame, but they sure as hell deserve some of it.

Anyhow, they're dead, and that's neither here nor there. It should be clear that federalism has failed us in the long run. What we really need now is anti-federalism. :)

- Chris

[ahenry]

Good thing! After all, the revolutionaries were eeeeeeevil terrorists, right? Absolutely no comparison. And you know it.

[ArmsAkimber]

And, no doubt, Paul Revere was "temporarily detained" at a sobriety checkpoint. :rolleyes:

Had to check the horse's BAC (blood alfalfa content). :neener:

[Chris Rhines]

Okay, AHenry, enlighten me. What exactly do I know?

- Chris

[4v50 Gary]

No, the Sons of Liberty were the evil terrorists. Washington was just one of those "damn rebels."

[Chris Rhines]

4v50 Gary - That's a fair enough distinction, although there was probably some overlap in the membership, and especally in ideals, between the SoL and the Founders.

Interestingly, prior to 1776 the SoL proclaimed themselves as loyal to King George III. As a group, they were opposed to the taxation policies of the British Parliment rather than to British rule in America. Of course, once active fighting broke out this didn't last, and the Sons of Liberty reformed as an organizational network to support the revolution.

Point I was trying to make, is that the difference between "evil terrorist" and "freedom-fighting rebel" is a very subjective one.

- Chris

[Airwolf]

I remember hearing about a poll or survey that was done awhile back. They showed a bunch of people the Bill of Rights asking what they thought of it (keeping the fact that it WAS the BoR from them).

Beyond the fact that most people didn't recognize it as the BoR is scary enough but the majority of those polled thought that it was far too radical, went too far and wasn't a good idea.

We're doomed :banghead:

[cato87]

Hey Hal,
Better check about these men, Hamilton was the major writer of the FEDERALIST, a series of articles supporting the Constitution. John Adams was out of the country during the debate on the Constitution (thank goodness) and was a Federalist when he was President. If anything Hamilton and Adams wanted to interpret the "general welfare" and "supreme law of the land" clauses to strengthen the role of the Federal Government. If you want to read about men who were fearful of the Constitution and were the forerunners of some libertarian thought read, the writings of the Anti-Federalists. Some good books for this are,
THE DEBATE ON THE CONSTITUTION VOLUMES 1 AND 2
THE ANTIFEDERALISTS: SELECTED WRITINGS AND SPEECHES, Edited by Bruch Fohner
THE ANTIFEDERALISTS: CRITICS OF THE CONSTITUTION, 1781-1788, by Jackson Turner Main
THE OTHER FOUNDERS, by Saul Cornell.
These books are interesting reading and are very informative concerning the role that these men had in forming the politics that shaped our nation.

cato87

"consider all things carefully, before adopting"

[red]

Chris, you wrote:

Point I was trying to make, is that the difference between "evil terrorist" and "freedom-fighting rebel" is a very subjective one.
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Did the American "evil terrorists" of the Revolutionary War period primarily target civilians or did they seek out military targets?

How many pubs were selected for bombing because they were filled with civilians?

Did any of them get on a commercial horse drawn coach with their boots filled with black powder and try to light a fuse?

I see a distinct difference. The point isn't all that subjective when you compare the terrorist's choice of targets to our revolutionary fighting force's targets. Terrorists by their cowardly nature prefer unarmed victims.

Our revolutionary fighters seemed to prefer victims wearing British uniforms.

There is always going to be unintended collateral damage and loss of innocent life in any war, but the deliberate targeting of unarmed civilians is what makes a 'terrorist" ...a terrorist and not a legitimate soldier of an army or militia.

When it is done by a government, let's use Iraq as an example, they are labeled as rogue nations and dealt with accordingly, appeased or containment is tried or as is the case in China, we make them preferred trading buddies.



red

[ahenry]

Okay, AHenry, enlighten me. What exactly do I know? The difference between terrorists and revolutionaries. No need for me to pontificate, Red has done that admirably.