[jakk280rem]

just picked up a box of 45cal 185 gr. hbrn ds's.

first, what does the ds mean?

second, i have multiple reloading manuals, but none have info on hollow base 45 acp loads. would standard hard cast loads apply? or would my pressures and velocities be off? these loads will be shot out of a 5" sa 1911.

third, i have currently, due to limited availability, hs-6, clays, 2400, and bullseye available. i was hoping to make use of the hs-6 or clays for my 45 loads, as the bullseye and 2400 i use for me 38 spl and 357 mag. i would like to run these bullets at about 950-1000 fps. i read hs-6 is a bit spicy for lead bullet use. is this true? the lyman p&r handbook 3rd ed. lists 9.1 gr hs-6 @1036fps for a 185 gr jacketed bullet out a 5" pipe. if i down load this to 8.5 gr +/- .2 gr, will i get the 950 i'm looking for with the hollow base bullet without any ill effects?

lastly, if hs-6 is the wrong powder, what would you use? if you have used this bullet succesfuly, what did you use?

thanx in advance. tony.

[flynlr]

the DS means Double Struck ie they where sized again after plating.

[Bailey Boat]

You should treat the plated bullets as you would lead. If you drive it too fast the plating will separate and lead the bore. If you go to the manufacturers website you'll find the do's and don't's of using them.....

[Walkalong]

The Berrys bullets can take everything the .45 ACP can dish out. No worries. Just don't try to turn it into a .45 Super and you will be fine.

Bullseye or Clays will work great with them in .45 for light target loads. The HS-6 is a bit slow IMHO for it, especially with lighter 185 gr bullets, and will not burn all that clean at the low .45 pressures, but, it can get you to the velocity you want. You will need to keep an eye on them as you get up there, but should be OK. 2400 is not suitable.

I just shot some preliminary test loads with Clays and the Berrys 185 Gr HBRN bullets the other day. I don't remember where I started load wise and don't have my latest excel log here at work, 7:00AM anyway, to check. It did, however, show great promise. That I remember. I was shooting them in a 25-2. :)

[kestak]

Greetings,

+1 walkalong.

Berrys can be an issue with magnum calibers.

Also, be VERY careful not to crimp too much so you can cut through the plating. At that time, you may have separation and it can be quite bad for your gun and you.

Thank you

[Walkalong]

I have overcrimped Berrys bullets in .38/.357, but other than ruining accuracy, I have never been able to make the plating "separate", or "fail". I have had it scrape them up pretty good. I have tried various mechanical ways to make the plating separate to measure it, but it is difficult to do. If your crimp is excessive, and it scapes the plating away from a portion of the bullet, it will start leading and causing problems. If you shoot enough of them I would think the bits of scraped off plating could build up and cause a problem, but have not gone to this extreme to find out.

[Casefull]

The berrys work fine. One thing I like is at elevated velocities there is not a jacket to seperate. I suppose leading could be a problem with lots of high velocity use but not here.

[Walkalong]

I just shot some preliminary test loads with Clays and the Berrys 185 Gr HBRN bullets the other day. I don't remember where I started load wise

It was 4.4 Grs Clays and the Berrys 185 Gr HBRN bullet with a WLP primer @ 1.247 O.A.L.

Gave me an Avg of 782 FPS from a S&W 1955 Target. (6.5" barrel)

4.5 Grs of WST gave me 734 Avg FPS. Same set up, same gun, same time. 66 Degrees and overcast. :)

WST gave significantly better ES & SD numbers. I did not load in enough quantity to accuracy test, but that is next. I think I am going to use 4.5 Grs of Clays and 4.6 of WST though. I may try some Competition as well. Good stuff. Maybe some Zip too, what the heck.

Use these loads at your own risk.

[jakk280rem]

just loaded a test batch using hs-6.

winchester cases
9.5gr hs-6
fed 150 lp lprimers
coal=1.250"

i dont have a chronograph but as long as they function my gun, have reasonable pressures, and don't shoot all over the place i'll b happy. i'll post some range data when i get there.

[RandyF]

9.6gr of HS-6?! Way to start out at the minimum load, and work your way up. (Not) hope you've since read on Berry's Bullets website to use MID RANGE jacketed recommended loads.... do your shooting buddies a favor, and tell them that they're shooting untested, MAXIMUM recommended loads... Hope you didn't hurt (or kill) yoursdf buddy...

[rfwobbly]

Jakk -
What RandyF is trying to tell you is that you are breaking all the safety rules by starting at the maximum load. And I agree.

Hodgdon suggests a Starting Load of 8.6gr when using HS-6 with a Hornady Jacketed 185gr bullet. The Berry plated bullet being softer, it's going to slide down the barrel with much less effort. Therefore the listed max load of 9.5gr is also going to also need to be reduced.

So in summation, we see you are violating standard reloading safety rules, Hodgdon reloading data rules, and Berry reloading rules. You'd do well to remember the old addage "There are old reloaders, and there are bold reloaders. But there are no old bold reloaders."

All the best.

[rcmodel]

You have made an error in starting with a published Max load for jacketed Hornady bullets of a different design.

Back off and stop before you get there this time.

As others have already told you, Berry recommends mid-level jacketed bullet data, NOT MAX loads listed for jacketed bullets!

rc

[Berry's MFG]

Great input! I agree on the points made. I have never cut through the plating with my crimp die. I have never shed copper when firing my .357 Mag or 10mm beyond the 1200FPS. I hear a lot about limited speeds in the .45 due to the plating, but have never seen chronographed data to support it. We have added plating thickness to all of our bullets over the last 10 years to a point that the current bullets are a very different animal.

[Walkalong]

I have never had Berrys plating fail either, in 9MM, .38, .357, and .45 ACP at 1200 plus a little some times. (not .45 ACP;)) I do not give more than a medium or so crimp on them.

I often see warnings about plating being cut and shedding, but have been unable to make various brands of plated bullets fail except for in one gun. I believe that problem was related to the chamber/bore alignment and roughness of the forcing cone.

[A and O]

Well, jak has not posted since 4/11, hope his hot load worked to his advantage and not to his detriment.

[PowderMonkey]

Jakk -
<snip>
Hodgdon suggests a Starting Load of 8.6gr when using HS-6 with a Hornady Jacketed 185gr bullet. The Berry plated bullet being softer, it's going to slide down the barrel with much less effort. Therefore the listed max load of 9.5gr is also going to also need to be reduced.

New guy alert. Just trying to wrap my brain around some reloading concepts here...

Now I can fully understand higher grain (heavier) bullets requiring less powder than lighter because they are harder to push and lead to higher pressure.

However - in my mind to this point - i can't seem to grasp the bold highlighted comment above...? If the plated bullet is softer and goes down the barrel easier and with less resistance, then why would the load need to be reduced as compared to a harded jacketed bullet that offers more resistance while going through the rifling?

[bds]

i can't seem to grasp the bold highlighted comment above...? If the plated bullet is softer and goes down the barrel easier and with less resistance, then why would the load need to be reduced as compared to a harded jacketed bullet that offers more resistance while going through the rifling?
PowderMonkey, welcome to THR. There are more than one variable at discussion here. The hard jacketing forces the bullet to simply "ride/grip" along the lands of the rifling and there is greater friction as hot gases escape around the bullet (which decreases chamber pressure and velocity).

The softer plating allows "some" indenting where the bullet contacts the lands of the rifling and "squish" into the grooves with less friction and provide tighter seal between the bullet and barrel with less hot gases escaping around the bullet (which increases chamber pressure and velocity).

If the bullet type was same for two different weight bullets, for the lighter bullet, it will take more powder to generate the same chamber pressure as the heavier bullet.

However, same weight of two different bullet type (plated vs. jacketed) requires different powder charge to generate the same chamber pressure. Plated bullets are often sized larger than jacketed bullets (which provides tighter seal between the bullet and barrel) and for reasons mentioned above require less powder charge to generate the same chamber pressure as jacketed bullet.

To be on the safe side, I usually lean towards using lead load data or 10% reduced jacketed load data for plated bullets.

[jakk280rem]

welcome to thr Randy. i hope you didn't join up just to necro this old thread. there are alot of informative and stimulating topics that i'm sure we would appreciate your input on.

thanks go too RandyF for pointing out my error. in post no.9 above i reported a test batch using 9.5gr of hs-6. this is a typo. in post no.1 i mentioned backing off a full grain to 8.5. this was the starting point i used.

do your shooting buddies a favor, and tell them that they're shooting untested, MAXIMUM recommended loads...

i don't let anyone shoot reloads out of any of my guns, theirs or mine. i am the only one who shoots reloads out of my guns and when i do they are my reloads. not bubba down the street, not gun show reloads, and not "factory" reloads. mine.

Hope you didn't hurt (or kill) yoursdf buddy...

no. i'm still here, and the gun and i are undamaged. thanks for your concern though.

i can report that recoil was mild, and the loads had barely enough force to opperate my slide. i could feel the slide kachunking through its cycle. accuracy was just okay. but the load left alot of unburnt powder fowling my bore. i stopped after about ten shots. the gun was having some non ammo related issues.

i pretty much scratched my berry's/hs-6 project. i think the light weight and increased internal case capacity due to the hollow base make hs-6 and the berry's incompatible. when i get back into reloading, i will reapproach my stock of beyy's with a quicker powder.

[tehweej]

I had a thread a while back about shooting the 185 HBRN's in my glock 36. In the hornady reloading handbook, it mentions that 5.3 grs of Bullseye was an accurate target load. I found this also to be true with my glock and those berry's. i found that 6.5 grs of BE was also quite accurate, but those are a little hot for plinking/general range time. Lots of good info in that thread.


http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=534117&highlight=berry's+glock