[schmeky]

I want to be able to mill my own .330 x 65 x .070 front sight dovetails on pistol slides. There are other things as well, but the front sight dovetail would be my largest "gunsmithing" job.

My question is, can the current crop of mini-mills, i.e. Grizzly, Homier (Harbor Freight Sales) accomplish this task competently?

I know a Bridgeport would be better, but I specifically would like to know if these "home" versions are worth the money (about $500.00).

[LongRifles, Inc.]

Ive been a machinist for a long time so I can answer this.

A firearm uses heat treated tool grade steels. This means a machine should be rigid and it should have horsepower. Neither of these are characteristics of benchtop hobby machines.

You are in a buyers market right now. Get on Ebay/equipment dealer sites and start sniping. There are deals everywhere.

Last. Once you "drop the panties" and buy a machine you'll find that you wondered how you ever lived without it. Buy the largest one you can possibly afford/fit in your shop. You'll find plenty of excuses to use it.

Good luck.

Chad

[gwillys]

+1
the mini mills are good for small brass & aluminum jobs. not so good for steel. with any mill, be prepared to spend lots & lots for all the xtra's you'll need & want. i love my mini mill setup, but knew it's limitations beforehand. first thing is to convert to belt drive. they are a pain to tram. theres lots of info/forums @ google.
since this picture, i've put a DRO on the z axis, which it really needed.
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/gwillys/am3.jpg

[krs]

I have a Bridgeport but have been thinking of one of those mini-mills for my downstairs den/office/shop where I spend more time than in my big shop anymore.

I think that if there's a more rigid way to hold endmills than a drill chuck available it would probably be able to do sight cuts using carbide cutters ONLY.

Longrifles is right - HP and strength are the most important aspects of a mill, and those little machines don't have much of either one.

I bought my mill in ebay eight years ago for $3200. which at the time was a killer deal as it's not worn out, has x-axis feed, DRO, variable speed two horsepower and weighs 2400 lbs. See it amongst the clutter back there?

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p263/twagger/Machine%20Tool%20Things/shop1.jpg

Today my mill would cost less than $1500. in the same or better shape.


So is there a good collet system to hold cutters on them little guys?

[krs]

BTW, if you do decide to get machine tools in ebay remember that for some reason they're all mostly on the east side.

It was $500. to get my BP home and I hate to think what it might cost today.

[schmeky]

Thanx for the replies guys.

I guess I'm still looking for the answer to my original question: will a 1/2 - 3/4 hp mini mill accomplish a front sight cut? I have no problem making multiple passes, in fact, I anticipate it.

I am gunsmithing as a hobby on my own stuff, no commercial or high volume work. I can pick a mini-mill up at Harbor Freight for $523.00 out of the door not far from where I live.

[gwillys]

having a mini mill, generally, i would say they dont work for steel. if your going to mill steel, it's the wrong tool.
btw, thats a jewelers chuck. mine uses R8.

[schmeky]

gwillys,

Thanx, that's what I was looking for. I'll pass on the mini mill.

[husker]

yes you need a nice Bridge Port and a 10 inch South Bend. then you can work on your guns and build one of these on the side PS make sure the mill has power feed http://www.campcreekrailroad.com/image027.jpg

http://www.campcreekrailroad.com/img_0269.jpg

http://www.campcreekrailroad.com/img_4611.jpg

http://www.campcreekrailroad.com/img_4635.jpg

[krs]

I think it would do it, schmeky, with good cutters. EGW sells a nice double-ended carbide dovetail mill with 60 degrees on one end and 65 on the other, a 3/8" collet is needed is all. Good cutters go through slide steel like butter if you keep the rate down.

Husker, I didn't thnk I had room for a good track circuit so I built this instead.......http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p263/twagger/Jinma1.jpg LOL!

[husker]

tell a little more about your tractor. is it set up for sled pulling. nice. i play with several old Case, Minneapolis,steamers, and some big old Rumlys to. they make the earth shake when their on the move.PS some where close theirs a rail road club waiting for a man like you. train mountain. org Chiloquin OR. 30 , miles of mane line track. PNW Live steamers. better PM about you tractor i don't want to hijack this thread any more than i already have

[TAB]

You can buy a decent full sized mill used now for 1-3k. I'd go that route rather then buy a new table top model.

[redneckdan]

No way in hell is a mini mill ridged enough to run carbide tooling. Get a full sized knee mill. Figure out the biggest project you will probably work on and buy a mill at least 1.5 times as big. Easier to do small stuff on a big mill, than to fight with big stuff on a small mill....if its even possible.

[blacksmithsc]

As Longrifles said, get a used, real mill. I have a HUGE buffalo drill press, it's actually 8' tall. I bought it from a used machinery place for $350. It's sweet. I also just bought a 1960' vintage metal cutting vertical bandsaw with a 24" throat for $500.

Look on the practical machinist forum for used machinery dealers.

[krs]

Husker, you don't want to know about that tractor - it's a Chinese made Jinma that I bought from a neighbor who was sick of it.
it runs OK and I can use it to cut my hayfield twice a year but it'd probably break if it needed to be a full time worker.

On the mini-mill - I've never used or even looked at one but cutting sight dovetails doesn't require a whole bunch from any machine tool so if it made a lot of light cuts without loading the tool very havily I still think it'd do it or it ought not be called mill at all. I know there's a lot of people doing some pretty fancy hobby work (little trains and steam engines and such) with those little mills and lathes 'cause I've looked at a few of their gathering places. Where's Varmint Al? He'd probably prove the point.

[husker]

you right Krs. just take small cuts and a little more time and he should be fine. keep your bit nice and sharp good and cool. a good dial indicator to zero out your project. and go get after it

[krs]

Here's a link to a guy's website that proves it can be done, and that a mini-mill can do much more than just dovetail a slide :http://www.geocities.com/kemays/

Ken Mays, if you're out there, you deserve a large amount of credits and accolades for having accomplished the builds of your guns!
For anyone interested - go through the build of Ken May's 1911 from an 80% frame. He details each step and describes fully how he did it and with what tools he did. It's a nice piece of work.

[schmeky]

OK, now I'm back to square 1. Here's a guy (Ken Mays) cutting steel with a mini-mill. Yea, he's making incremental cuts of .010", but that's fine, patience I have.

I think I'll drop an e-mail to Ken Mays.

[havoc7usmc]

I have a grizzly mini mill and it does fine for cutting dovetails on 1911 frames , you do have to take small cuts. But I do agree that nothing beats a big mill. I've also cut a few dovetails on muzzle loaders.....low & slow.

[krs]

The one used by Ken Mays is Grizzly green so the next question will be: Is the Grizzly mini-mill the same machine as the Harbor Freight model? I used to know that the little lathes were all the same except for the colors - is it now still true of the mills? I know that Grizzly charges more but that may not be a useful factor.

[schmeky]

havoc7usmc & krs,

Thanx for your input. This is the kind of information I have been looking for, however, I respect in input and advice of everyone.

I think I'm going to give it a try, I'll probably order a mini-mill next week and start looking for some accessories, T-blocks, cutters, etc. I already have a Starrett Dial indicator, set of mics, depth gauges, vernier caliper, etc.

I have read on the 'net that one Chinese firm, Seig, makes all the current crop of mini-mills (Homier, Grizzly, et al). Main thing is find one that is R8 for a wider selection of cutting attachments.

[Onmilo]

I have another suggestion.
Consider a 10" between centers lathe and add a milling attachment.
Some of the benchtop combination Mill/Lathes are adequate enough for making the dovetail cuts in most firearm applications.

The $400 mini mills at 1/2 h.p. and 3/8" capacity are really not powerful enough for making these precision cuts and the other posters are right, you won't be satisfied with the results.
Hogging up and snapping an expensive dovetail cutter on an expensive slide isn't a good way to get into machining.

You would be better served with a 1 to 1 1/2 h.p 1/2" capacity bench top mill and even these would be best utilized if you make relief cuts centered on the dovetail path using a 1/8" to 3/32" drill before you make the first pass with the dovetail cutter.
Adding a stream of cutter fluid and keeping the speed and feed just below the dovetail cutter manufacturers maximum recomendations will keep chatter to a minimum. HTH

[krs]

Schmeky,

I'm looking at the comparable tilt column mini-mill that's shown in the 2009 Grizzly catalog. While it is a variable speed 0 - 2500 rpm 3/4 HP job, it uses an MT #3 spindle taper.

The cutter holding type used by the HF mill is R8 as I remember. I could be wrong about that but if true it indicates that the machines may not be the same between the two outlets.

There's MT 3 tooling available still, certainly Grizzly will have some, but the R8 holders are more commonly used and available. You can find great deals on stuff like that if you can shop the various sites that sell it. There's millions of them, seems like.

It could be that Grizzly spec'd the machine this way to assure that customers would come to them for accessories and tooling. I ran into this once years ago in a situation where a seemingly generic tool I'd bought from them could not use parts from other sources, specifically the Mini-Machineshop.com.

Just a hint, or a tip, and take it as you like. I 'graduated' from a mini lathe to the one I have now, and graduated from a Jet mill-drill to the Bridgeport I have now although I still have the mill drill doing duty as a drill press. I never did try one of the mini-mills but as I said above I think I could use one in what has become my 'downstairs' office/small shop. I have a little Craftsman 6" x 18" lathe that I'm ready to move down here and once all my small toys are in here I'll be able to let my wife have all of the rest of the house. I think it'll make her happy. :)

[krs]

Onmilo,

Just about everyone who tries to do much with one of the Chinese combo machines that have a short bed and incorporate a mill/drill stand has gotten pretty badly frustrated. By the time they add a toolholder to the crossfeed, or attempt to use a vice made to fit theose small beds (a milling attachment) there's no room left on the machine to make cuts, or so little room that they have had to redo their setups to make half a cut from one side and the other half the other way, or things like that. It was near impossible to do any clean work that way and most every one who has started out that way gave up altogether or moved to separate machines for turning and milling.

There's the exception called "Smithy". Those are larger and much better made. Some really impressive work has come off of smithys over the years. But they are a whole different ballgame from this China initiated "Mini Machine Shop" craze that's gotten a ton of people into metal cutting who might not ever have had a chance to try it before.

[schmeky]

krs,

Everything you've said makes perfect sense and sounds plausible. I'm looking at this mill which is larger, has more HP, and is rated as a "light" industrial mill. What's your opinion on this one?

http://www.mini-lathe.com/X3_mill/X3rvw/X3.htm

[beatcop]

Smith 1220 series are ok..they don't compare to a Bridgeport, but will get the job done if you adj the slop and spend some time on setup. They advertise .001 tolerance iirc; sure, under ideal setup.

I'm not a machinist, but have tinkered...just practice and hog out any metal with endmills, so the final cut doesn't have to remove much material.

[krs]

Schmeky,

That's clearly a better machine. The Z axis control is a more reliable and accurate way to set depth of cutting than moving the spindle up and down, even on a Bridgeport. So to see a fairly accurate way to do that on this one is encouraging. The .001" markoffs on the dials is much better than their previous metric conversion since that's what you'd most often be using. You begin to think in thousandths and tenths of thousands and you're getting there. (You'll find that it improves woodworking too, if you happen to do any of that.)

It looks like it's got more room between the spindle and the bed. As I was describing about the little lathes there's got to be room for all the holding devices - vises, indexers, rotary tables, etc, and etc. and the cutter holders with cutters or you can't do much at all. Just think about the length of a drill bit in a drill chuck. What, About 7" at least? With that 7" hanging down toward the table what can you put under it to be drilled? Melba Toast? :) The reason machines are in different sizes is to work on bigger and bigger parts that need machining. To use lathes again for example, a lathe of 7" x 10" (the first China imported ones) means that it can turn a piece no larger than 7" in diameter and no longer than 10" long. The sizes never include the holding devices. Even on one of those little lathes the 3 jaw chuck is a good 2" front to back or more and that has to be subtracted from the 10" capacity. So now you get 8". The other end called the tailstock needs a center that protrudes from the stock shaft at least 1" and usually more. Now you're down to a workpiece of no more than 7" long. The toolholder and the lathe saddle take up more of that and the saddle can only move the cutter between the two ends minus it's own width. The Chinese 7" x 10" gives a user a maximum of some 2" of turning room. You'd not be able to turn down a 6 penny nail in one of those. See what I mean? The machines seem great as they stand there. Some people think they're cute. But you and I know that the point of the whole thing is to work on something that is to be put into the machine and the little guys have to say "Sorry, no room" to anything larger than the top half of a ballpoint pen.

You have to look at the little mills with an eye toward how much can they REALLY mill once all of whatever setup fixturing is in place, and this more expensive one looks like a far better choice as far as that aspect goes.

One of the things that kept me away from the other little mill is the way it tilts the column to tilt the cutter. I just couldn't be convinced that that mechanism could be locked in position with enough strength to do a really fine cut. This bigger one doesn't do that, and if there's room between the table and the spindle to set up a sineplate or other means of tilting the piece being worked on then the machine only has to hold the cutter solidly vertically in place. That's maybe the biggest advantage of a knee mill like the Bridgeport. It's got room to move the workpiece and this one looks like it's got some too.

This one costs twice as much, weighs twice as much or more, and is still Chinese. There are a lot of opinions pro and against as I'm sure you've seen but I think that these machines have come quite a ways from the first offerings and some of them are downright good.

Any machining is less a matter of the machine and more the work practices and ingenuity of the person doing the machining. Ken Mays above has given a pretty good demonstration of what an inventive person can do even within the limitations of his machine tools and pocketbook. Look around the net and you can find other people who have accomplished near miracles with seemingly inadequate tools. They're out there proving that there's lots of ways to skin the cat.

I'm gonna' tell you straight out and from experience that you can not buy your way into good results with home machine tools. I'm saying this because I've figured out that plenty of other people would have gotten a lot more out of the machines I own than I've had the inventiveness to do. You've got to look inside and decide about that for yourself.

[schmeky]

krs,

Thank for your thoughtful response. You've been a great source of good information on this topic.

I just got a response from Ken Mays and he indicated a dovetail is well within the mini-mills capabilities. He's cut several sight dovetails with no problems. He said the mini-mills HP (1/2) is not a limitation for cutting dovetails, however, I know the more HP the better, just as structural rigidity is crucial for accurate, clean cuts.

My concern is the introductory models have only 2 speeds , 1,100 and 2,500rpm at the spindle. I would prefer more speed ranges. I'm going to check out the current crop of mills carefully before I do anything.

[camp_gunner]

Just to drive everyone here nuts, have you thought about a good used shaper? They are the cat's meow for cutting this sort of slot.

[krs]

Schmeky, those two speeds two speed RANGES, as in: This mini mill/drill machine has two speed ranges: 0 to 1100 RPM and 0 to 2500 RPM—great for different thicknesses and types of material.
That's right out of the HF description of their $499, mini-mill.

Those machines use a DC motor that can run from stop continuously up to max speed without overheating their motors. It's a BIG advantage and one that I've thought of converting my South Bend lathe to be able to do. I have a variable drive running my 3 phase motor on the lathe but worry over low speed use burning up the motor. Either way it beats changing pulleys all to hell to have variable speeds on a machine tool.



camp gunner,
I sold a 7" South Bend shaper not long ago. I bought it, rebuilt it, and then couldn't find much use for it. I'll admit that it probably would have gotten more play if I hadn't bought my Bridgeport mill, but because the BP could do most of the cuts that a shaper specializes in I just didn't need the shaper. WHAT A NEAT MACHINE IT WAS! There was something about the rube goldberg-ish way it operated that fascinated me, fascinated my wife, and fascinated any kids that came by. Sometimes I find myself wishing I'd have kept it.

[Tom S.]

Let me give you some quick back ground: I served an apprenticeship and retired as a journeyman die maker. Having said that, shop around and find yourself a good used Bridgeport. Yes, it will cost you - but with the economy being what it is, you can find some great deals. Besides the quality and ability of the machine, there are two very good reasons for getting one over a cheaper machine. One is resale, should you ever want to sell it, and the other is parts availability. Try to get parts for some Chinese imports can range from frustrating to impossible.

The next major expense will be tools. End mills and cutters are downright expensive. It's like buying a computer: you think your done spending money and then you realize you have to buy software. One way to save money on cutters is to buy them resharpened.

One last piece of advice: Never - never - never operate a mill without wearing safety glasses! No if's, and's or but's. You may think 'this cut will only take a second', but that second is also all it takes to stick the piece of a broken cutter in your eye. Eyes can be 'sympathetic' meaning you can damage one and go blind in both.

[krs]

Tom,

The recommendation of a Bridgeport machine is appreciated and has been made several times in the thread.

I have a 1983 Bridgeport 2hp Series 1 with variable speed, x-axis feed, and DRO. It's a great machine, no doubt about it.

BUT...it's a big thing for a homeowner to find room for as it's footprint is some 6' x 8'. Mine weighed in at 2200 lbs without the table feed or DRO attached. I bought it from Detroit and at the time it was $500. to get to a depot where I put it on my trailer, or the shipper did with a crane, and I had to give another $100. for that. I'm sure the shipping prices are much higher now as that was in 2001. Once home it took a great deal of straining my 8 ton cherrypicker to just get it on the ground. My wife and I then used pipe rollers to inch it into my shop and into it's current location. Thank goodness for the level cement driveway and shop floor! For someone who does not have a truck and trailer the cost of getting a machine this size home from the local shipping terminal and into location can easily be $1000. or more if people are hired to do the job.

Lots of folks simply don't have the room for a mill the size of a Bridgeport in the first place.

Parts for the Bridgeport are not easy to find now that the machine is no longer a mainstay in industrial use, and they are very expensive. I bought a good machine and have had no real problems with it, but other people in machining forums have had less luck with theirs bought in this time of low priced manual machine tools. Those low prices are for machines that have been depreciated out in professional use where they may have run for twenty years day in and day out. They're tired machines for the most part. When they break down, as they ultimately must, it's no small thing to repair them. It takes room around the machine, and above it, to remove the head with a crane, for example. Try that alongside your wife's Taurus out in the garage.

On the other hand, these small machines can be handled by most anyone with a friend willing to drop by for a few minutes of lifting and a beer. The machines can be completely disassembled on a large kitchen table, and parts for the little Chinese tools are very easy to find and are quite inexpensive, especially when compared to Bridgeport parts. Whole businesses have arisen around supplying the needs of home shop or hobby machinists now and it's really an active enthusiastic bunch of people doing it. There's a guy in Pasedena, CA who has just about any part for any of these little machines in stock ready to ship: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/.

Another factor that's very important to mention is that just about all of the small machines plug into the wall - run fine on household 110 current. Any machine surplused out of industrial or small shop use will run on 3 phase 220 volt at least. Not everyone even has single phase 220 wired in but for those who do the problem of phase conversion becomes a big issue. There are several ways to deal with it and none of them are free.

For better or worse, the small Chinese maching tools have opened up the world of hobby machining to people who for one reason or another could never consider such a thing in the past. Sure, I remember drooling over catalog ads for Smithy machines but I could never afford one. I'm not old enough to have been able to buy any of the Atlas/Craftsman tools out of the Sears catalog but I'm old enough to have looked at them and one of my uncles had a full miniature shop in the 1950's with which he made prototypes of a bunch of gizmos that he was able to patent and sell to manufacturers.

So yeah, it's standard advise given in forums all over the net when the subject comes up - "Buy a Bridgeport", inevitably. I've never seen anyone giving that advise ask first whether the recipient has room for one, has the ability or desire to deal with a fun tool that's as heavy as a car, can power it up, or whether the person has any prior experience in machining to keep such a machine from being anything other than a strange and awesome monstrosity.

Nope, it's just "Buy a Bridgeport", nothing else will do.

[schmeky]

I am a hobbiest, a compulsive tinkerer, and a gun enthusiast. I worked my my way through college working part-time in a machine shop. I was a floor sweeper and ran a slotting machine during the holidays. I was allowed to rough cut (prep) on a lathe and did some grinding as well. One of my best friends back then ran a Bridgeport and he helped me make some shift "dogs" for a motorcycle transmission I was fixing since I was to poor to buy the parts.

I always loved that milling machine. I now find myself on an ever increasing "need" curve with my pistols and could occupy myself for hours if I had my own small mill. Those that own these mini-mills have given me the impression that even though they are limited in size and power, they are an affordable way to do something I might not have ever been able to do otherwise.

The vast majority of industrial machines are indeed three-phase 230/460. Not an option for the home hobbiest. My projects will be small and just for me, if it's something large I'll have to farm it out.

I have learned a tremendous amount from this thread and I am grateful to all that have posted.

[grsjax]

Depends on what you mean by a mini-mill. Most of the ones for sale are made by Sieg. There are three basic models, the largest is the x3
http://www.siegind.com/Products/br-x3-lathe.htm
The small one is useful only for small work with brass and aluminum. It will cut steel but it will take you forever to do anything useful.
I have the x2 which is the one in the middle. I haven't had any problems with it as long as I take light cuts and use sharp tools. Haven't tried cutting a dovetail yet but figure I could do it if I had to.

[madcratebuilder]

I have both the X2 and X3 super mini mills. If you have the space and power requirements for a full size machine, go for it. If you want to work on small objects and don't want to take up any space the mini's well do the job. You just can't make heavy cuts.
My X2 runs R8 carbide end mills with no problem. One mod you well want to do is convert to belt drive on the X2. You need to spend some time cleaning up the out of box machine, but with a little work they can be vary dependable. I have cut several dovetails, just take small cuts and it's fine. I have mine set up with a three axis DRO, I don't know how I did with out it.
The X3 is a much nicer machine but cost three times as much. There is a lot of on-line info on setting these up and DIY improvements you can do.
Good place to buy tooling is littlemachineshop.com
Check out minimill.com and minilathe.com

Good comments krs!

[Onmilo]

KRS, I noticed I posted a 10" center and wanted to type 19" between centers for using with an added milling attachment.
For cutting dovetails on any handgun slide this arrangement is more than adequate, for cutting angles and circles a flat table vertical mill is a far better choice.

I said to consider a combo mill/lathe and said nothing about a Chinese made version of which I totally agree are less than adequate for most heavy work.

Digital readouts are a good thing, especially if your eyesight is getting bad.
I retired my analog micrometers and calipers long ago for the same reason.

[krs]

Onmilo,

I'm glad you've clarified that about the 10" lathe. I've read plenty of your previous posts and have seen you give advise that makes a lot of sense and obviously comes from long experience so that one really surprised me.

I had a 7" x 12" lathe and I didn't keep it very long after realizing that once it was setup and ready to turn something it couldn't do much better than a 2" pass, if that much. So the idea of a mill attachment on an even shorter bed length was too much for me to let stand. Yes, 19" would make it possible, in fact a mill attachment was one of the accessories offered for the Atlas 6" x 18" lathe.

[schmeky]

Wanted to again thank everyone for their input. I just ordered the Seig X2 mini-milling machine. The mill, a 42 piece clamping kit, and shipping delivered to my door is $572.00.

Now I need some end mills, dovetail cutters, fly cutters, a DRO, . . . . . . . :o

[krs]

The world is in trouble now!! :)

No kidding Schmeky, you sound like the kind of guy who'll find a million uses for that mill. Start hanging around the mini machining forums and you'll find people who are more than willing to give you any help they can whenever questions come up. It's really a pretty amazing world when I stop and set back to think about it - people all over the world finding ways to make things you'd think were impossible and doing first rate jobs of it too. There are problems and those bring solutions - like I think I said above it's a world of proving that there are lots of ways to skin cats.

That little mill can lead you into areas you never thought to go. Try to hold off ideas about CNC conversions at least until you've gotten used to the machine and have some grounding in making chips fly. That stuff gets expensive fast but if you're electical/electronics inclined and decide to look into it think about some people out there who have built CNC into their miniature machines, put a glass doored cabinet around it, and will post photos of the cabinet filled so full of metal chips that you can't see the machine that cut them!

I'd post you some links to follow but it's been a few years since I was looking at them so I don't know if they'd be what they used to be. I'll try to check some of them later today but if I don't bring some they won't be hard to find with a quick google search.

The little machine shop store is already posted and I've just looked to see that Varmint Al is still kickin' and posting. His site was always a useful resource and if he hasn't gone clean round the bend it probably still is: http://www.varmintal.com/alink.htm#Mini-Lathe/

Go slow buying tooling until you can get an idea of what works and what doesn't as well as what YOU need to do whatever you have in mind.

Have fun, above all!

[krs]

Oh, Brownell's has gun dovetail cutters but they're all single ended. The little carbides you need run about $65. each.

EGW sells one carbide cutter that has the two most commonly needed angles, 60 and 65 degrees, one on each end and his cutter was $67. a couple of weeks ago.

Carbide cutters are brittle and the dovetails break just like that if you make a mistake, so you might not want to dive right into your slide when the machine arrives, OK?

The HSS (high speed steel) cutters will do the job but on a slide they'll dull pretty quickly and halfway through the cut the sound will change and you'll see that instead of cutting you're pushing steel out of the way. Don't want that - slides aren't cheap.

That's all, I promise. I could run on and on, looks like :)

[gwillys]

check out enco & msc. before i even cranked up my mini mill, i installed a belt drive, & i would recommend you do the same to save yourself some aggravation. have a gallon of mineral spirits on hand when you unpack it :)
http://www.stirlingsteele.com/beltdrive.html
http://www.stirlingsteele.com/files/BW_beltdrive.jpg

[schmeky]

krs,

I've already found the best way to cut a .330x60x.070 sight dovetail. Use a 1/4" end mill for a center rough cut, then cut the dovetails on each side of the 1/4" cut. I'm dangerous now!

gwillys,

Might do this later on in the summer, I've read up on these conversions and I understand if your cutter bites, you can strip out the drive gears. The belt drive conversion keeps this from happening. Wonder how they made that belt drive conversion;)?

[gwillys]

belt drive also makes it a lot quieter. & getcha a surge protector for it. i've milled a little steel with it, and it did ok. see if msc will send you the big book. have fun tramming ;)

how are you going to handle coolant?

[krs]

You got it!

The small dovetail mills necessarily have skinny little necks and so won't tolerate much side load and anything you do to lighten their part of the work will help keep them with you.

That small neck gives a head start in grinding a broken dovetail cutter to a fine point that you can use chucked in the mill to mark or centerpunch other projects.

Are you good at math? :)

[schmeky]

gwillys,

I've thought about that. I may go ahead and spring for a pump. I know a steady flow of coolant/lubricant is an absolute must.

krs,

Yea, I'm fine with the math. My brother was a master machinst years ago (ran CNC lathes). If I need a thousands refresher, he'll help. I have a set of mic's (good one's, Mitotoyos, up to 5-6"), a set of bore mic's, a depth mic, I also have the standards for mic calibration, and a good dial indicator with magnetic base and clamp-on hardware.

There's other items I'll know I'll need; going to wait and see.

[gwillys]

if your mill comes with 62.5 Divisions dials on the X- and Y-axes, they are replaceable. i use these:
50 Divisions dials (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1763&category=)
makes counting a little easier.
UPDATE:
hey schmeky, skip the dials above. this is the correct kit: TRUE-INCH MILLING MACHINE CONVERSION KIT (http://www.micromark.com/TRUE-INCH-MILLING-MACHINE-CONVERSION-KIT,8166.html)
http://www.micromark.com/RS/SR/Product/82677_R.jpg

[schmeky]

gwillhys,

The .001" dials are a must for me. I'll save your link and see what's on the X2 when it arrives. Looking at carbide end mills on Ebay presently and a combo 60/65 degree dovetail.

Any good sources for carbide cutters? I'll get more/better/cleaner cuts with carbide.

krs,

Excellent point on the weak area on the dovetails, I never thought of that, but I see your point. Also a great idea on how to recycle a broken dovetail. You guys know your stuff.

[gwillys]

enco (http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRHM?KNC-DV6174368836&gclid=CM_WxvnSzpkCFQKJxgodtnpnuw) & msc (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRHM) will have pretty much everything. see if you can get the 'big book' from msc.

[Albert A Rasch]

I was going to mention Ken, but you all beat me to it. I would suggest that if decide to go by way of the mini mill, you consider that they are pretty much "kits" that need some improvement.

There is a wealth of information on them on the web.

Regards,
Albert
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles (http://trochronicles.blogspot.com)
The Range Reviews: Tactical (http://trrtactical.blogspot.com)

[gwillys]

hey schmeky, skip the dials above. this is the correct kit: TRUE-INCH MILLING MACHINE CONVERSION KIT (http://www.micromark.com/TRUE-INCH-MILLING-MACHINE-CONVERSION-KIT,8166.html)
hope i didnt mess you up. old age/memory @ work :) started remembering theres more to it than dials. had to search through emails from 2/3 years ago to find the order.

[schmeky]

gwillys,

Thanx for your effort, I really do appreciate it. I understand the mini-mills are a lot like shooting. You start with an out-of-the-box pistol, modify, customize, then. . . holy moly. . . there's reloading, dies, powders, scales, powder tricklers, etc.

It's the same with mills, just different.

[44-henry]

Skip the coolant pump and buy yourself some more useful accessories. You shouldn't be taking real deep cuts with that mill and a squirt or two with a spray bottle will give you enough for most jobs.

You can find a lot of accessories at www.littlemachineshop.com and they are a good company to work with. I have used table top machine tools in the university classes I teach at UND for the last several years and students generally like them. I find that they work great to teach the basics and make an ideal stepping stone to the bigger machines that we also use in our program. Enjoy your new machine.

[madcratebuilder]

Congrats on the new mill. I well second the belt drive as the first thing you do. I would not waste the money on a true inch conversion. Just put a three axis DRO on it. You never read those damn dials again, besides they are covered by swarf or your work anyway!
E-bay is an excellent place for end mills, several guys sell fresh re-sharps that are 20-30 cents on the dollar of new. These are top of the line made in USA carbide cutters as cheap as HHS Chinese. Unless your running CNC you could care less if your .375 cutter is now .371.
You don't need a flood coolant system, just a hand spray pump is fine, your doing small stuff remember.

[Rex B]

+17 (or whatever) on the minimill

I have had one for years, along with a bigger milldrill.
The minimill gets all the work that fits the envelope, usually slides.
It works just fine - carbide always. Watch your feeds and speeds.
DRO is a must, even if it's converted $20 digi-calipers.
You can get by with a couple of strategically mounted dial or digital indicators.

You can do good work out of the box, but fine work requires disassembly and tuning to get it square, smooth and rigid. I haven't done that, and it's fine for slides.

Enjoy your mill It's habit-forming. ;)

[krs]

Skip the coolant pump and buy yourself some more useful accessories. You shouldn't be taking real deep cuts with that mill and a squirt or two with a spray bottle will give you enough for most jobs.

Yep, I go along with this too. I have a coolant system on my big mill but almost always just use a spray bottle of WD-40. I buy the stuff by the gallon for about $10. and use it on the lathe, the mill, and even the surface grinder sometimes. I was surprised to find that this is exactly what Darrel Holland advises to use in his video lessons on running a machine shop. Coolant makes a mess so you'll want to only use it continuously if you really need it, and you won't with small cuts.

You'll get a feel for what burns up your bits and you aren't working in a job shop where everything you do is accounted for on the bill to the customer. You can afford low speeds and contemplation :) . The only boss yelling at you will be your wife at about dinnertime.

Definitely do whatever it takes to make sure the table and your vise or holding fixtures are perfectly square with the spindle. This will screw up nice things more than most anything you can do. A half thousandths (.0005") out of square will cause an x-axis cut to be higher or lower on one side than the other in just a couple of inches and it gets worse the wider the piece is, to give just one example.

I doubt anyone needs to ask how I know this, eh? :)

[schmeky]

I'll skip the coolant pump for now, just about everybody can't be wrong. I found some new 1/4" carbide 4FL end mills for $7.50 each, so I ordered 3 for now.

It's reassuring to hear others that have used their mini mills for (pistol) slide work. Should have it in a couple days; got notification it's already shipped out. I'm already finding things to do with it I hadn't planned on.

My son and I are building a 4RW75 series Ford transmission for his street/race car. I'm going to mill the hydraulic aluminum apply pistons so we can increase the number of clutches in the clutch packs.

Should have bought a mill sooner.

[krs]

I'm going to mill the hydraulic aluminum apply pistons so we can increase the number of clutches in the clutch packs.

Hmm, that sounds like a job that might best be done in your LATHE....:D

[schmeky]

Hmm, that sounds like a job that might best be done in your LATHE....

Absolutely . . . . if I had one. Had one where I used to work and I turned many a GM TH-350, TH-400, and 700R4 apply pistons. A lathe may happen in the future . . . but the mill will get the job done for now.

[madcratebuilder]

My son and I are building a 4RW75 series Ford transmission for his street/race car. I'm going to mill the hydraulic aluminum apply pistons so we can increase the number of clutches in the clutch packs.

That was one of the reasons I bought my mini mill and lathe for in the first place. Cutting up them power glides.
I have a 7X14, go bigger if you can afford it.

Check out smartflix.com, you can rent dvd's on learning milling and lathe operation, some are pretty good, some suck.
There is a ton of on-line info about the mini's.

[krs]

Absolutely . . . . if I had one.

I was teasing you, Schmeky, just in case you didn't know that.

Flycutters are pretty cheap but the trick to milling an apply piston will be to hold it. When you're milling it matters a lot which side of the work a cutter runs on. One way, a "climb" cut can exert a lot of force - enough to take your workpiece right out of your holding device and fling it across the room if you haven't got it well set up or try too much cut.

That's the worst case but any movement of your work while it's being cut will do damage to the piece, maybe to the machine, and possibly even to you as quick as a blink. A small machine will exert a smaller force, of course, but the effects are the same big or small. I'd bet that something like this is the reason for the recommendation of a conversion to the belt drive in mini-mills.

I'm lousy at describing what I mean with this but Madcratebuilder's recommendation of the tapes from Smartflix http://smartflix.com/ would be worth your time if you don't already know what I'm talking about.

[schmeky]

krs,

I would be more comfortable if you just outright made fun of me instead of just mere teasing:neener:

I eatin' up everything you're putting down. All the input here has been from those that have been there. I fully intend to check out the instructional links provided.

The more I learn, the more I realize just how little I know.

[schmeky]

Maybe the last post on this topic, but the mill arrived today at my home. Look forward to setting it up.

[krs]

You're gonna' have a ball, Schmeky, and so are we seeing your creations and new ideas.

Just bolt the machine down and remember that it could hurt you.

edit: That was quick! Did the driver refuse to do any more than lower it to the street on his liftgate?

[madcratebuilder]

A good mod is installing this switch (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2041&category=) You can change direction of rotation with just a twist of the knob, great for running taps.
This (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2500&category=2) is about as big of vise you can use.
This (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2258&category=1687114045) gets rid of that damn torsion arm and gives you almost two more inches of usable height.

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/hstpages.html

[gwillys]

this is a good vise - Vise, 3" Screwless (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2356&category=). eliminates slop/shifting you'd get with the screw type.

[madcratebuilder]

this is a good vise - Vise, 3" Screwless. eliminates slop/shifting you'd get with the screw type.

I have a 2" and 1" screwless, I do like it for small work items.

[Alchymist]

I have the HF micro mill, and have found that a set of collets are a wonderful thing. Beats trying to hold an end mill in a Jacobs chuck by far. But the one thing I found really handy was a 3" Palmgren vise, mounted to a piece of 1/2" aluminum. The vice was carefully positioned on the plate and held with flathead screws countersunk in the plate. The plate was drilled with three holes that aligned with the t slots in the table., allowing the vice to be positioned in either a froward position next to the column or back by one row of slots. By using only two bolts in the T slot, the plate can be positioned at an angle if needed. The biggest advantage though, is that the plate can be slipped on the table with the three bolts loose, and a machinist square used against the plate, and the bolts tightened. The vise fixed jaw is automatically square with the table. Quick on, quick off. Naturally care must be taken to start with a truely square plate (you have the mill right there!), and to make sure the fixed jaw of the vise is square to the plate. I used a dial indicator against the plate to initially clamp it to the table, and then against the fixed jaw as the vise was positioned on the plate. Can't count how much time is saved when a vice is needed and no kludge of hold downs is needed. Of course if you have a dedicated milling vise...different story. :D


Oh yeah, your second purchase should be a rotary table.....:( and then the indexing plates, and then......well you get the idea....

[schmeky]

Here it is temporarily set up in my shop. Nothing is attached or assembled yet. I checked the Hi-Lo range out for function. Overall, seems to be a pretty solid machine for the money. Don't worry, I plan on moving it away from my Dillon press. Thanx to all.

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1300/img0886lsc.jpg

[gwillys]

welcome to the swarf rat consortium

[krs]

Schmeky, I'm not sure, but you might be able to get good money for that welding helmet.
It's such a relic that some fool's bound to think it's collectible! LOL!

The machine looks good.

Don't even think about running an end mill or dovetail in that drill chuck. Mill loads are sideways to the spindle - a drill chuck isn't designed to hold anything from moving sideways. And look how much of your working room it takes away.

[schmeky]

krs,

So what do I need to get started? I have a little milling project lined up soon.

[madcratebuilder]

Clamping kit
parallels
vise
Edge and center finder and T-slot cleaner
R8 collets
end mills
2" brush-several
center drills

Here's (http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3489&category=) a kit from littlemachineshop.com

[schmeky]

I have a clamping kit on the way, ordered it with mill, but hasn't arrived yet. The R8 collets are obviously used with end mills. Can I get started without the vise by clamping an item (in this case a 1911 bare slide) down using some spacing blocks and the clamping kit?

Simply don't have $300.00 right now to order the kit.

[44-henry]

I would suggest starting simple and adding tools as you have a need for them. I would suggest a good vice would be at the top of the list. You will not want to hold end mills in the drill chuck as it was never designed for side loads and can be very dangerous when used in this manner. On the other hand you probably will use more 1/4 and 3/8 shank end mills than any other so you could save some money by just buying collets (or solid holders) for these two sizes in the beginning. Parallels are nice, but you can make these yourself with some care. It looks like you have a reloading press so you should already have a caliper, if not you need to get one. A dial indicator is also important for dialing in your machine and some other setups, inexpensive ones can be purchased for around $10 and are well worth it. You can spend a lot of money on the latest laser edgefinder; however, a wiggler is really all you need. Beware of the addiction of buying additional tools and accessories until you have a real need for them. Have fun.

[snommittj]

I traded a SA XD 45 for a HF mini mill about 6 months ago. I didn't have any prior experience with a mill but there are alot of great videos available that will walk you through the basics and make learning pretty easy. My first projects were a couple of mini 1911 slides(kinda) to practice different cuts. I apprentice for a gunsmithing and he told me to take some 3/4" stock and start making chips. It's been alot of fun and very educational. Now, I can do most any 1911 mod I need to do. These machines might not be as fast as some, but with proper set up, they'll do the job and do it nicely. I'm addicted.

95722

95724

95725

95726

95727

[gwillys]

schmeky, dont mess around with anything other than a good vise and a solid set up. the one i linked to above is very high quality. you need it. and some parallels.

btw, i rarely mill steel. when i do, i use 'tap magic' for lube.

[krs]

Schmeky,
Yeah, you CAN clamp your work directly onto the mill table, to answer your question.

I don't mean to say that you won't need or want any of the equipment recommended for you here by these guys because everything mentioned has purposes in either making some things you may want to do possible or in making everything you do easier and more precise.

The clamping sets that are sold practically everywhere will handle all number of sizes and shapes of things once you get used to using them. In general one bolt, one T-nut, one straight piece, and one triangular piece make one clamp. The combinations available from your set are to clamp various heights of workpiece. The odd looking triangular pieces work with the straight pieces to form what's usually called a step clamp. Sometimes more than one of any of the pieces may be needed to build an effective clamping but usually one of each piece = one clamp.

The point is to clamp the work down firmly and straight down onto the table. This means that the straight pieces should be horizontal. The bolt through their hole and into the T-nut that fits in the grooves cut in the machine table. The stepped pieces are what brings the 'free' end of the straight piece up to horizontal. Think of it as being like building a bridge.

Make clamps TIGHT. This is part of why a vise is good for clamping. It's much faster and it can exert more pressure than you could put out using a one foot wrench.

I think that for a machine of this size 44-Henry is right in saying that most of your work will involve mills of 3/8" or smaller so just those collets will be enough for a while. Thing is that sets of R8 collets are almost always on sale so if you just get a set up to 3/4" or 1" you'll be set up and done with it.

The mill holders are more rigid than collets are but they also take away another inch of your work space. Always keep the amount of room an accessory takes between your spindle and your table. Just for fun take a 1/2" drill bit and put it in that chuck you have. As you start the bit into the chuck look at the space between the drill tip and your table - you'll see what I mean.

All the 'stuff ' seems kind of overwhelming right now, I'll bet. It'll get better. Just go slow and don't buy anything you're not sure you need. Keep reading and before long you'll be using the mill in the way you use a pocketknife - routine.

Here's a place that offers better prices on some of the stuff, in case you haven't found them yet: http://www.cdcotools.com/

There's plenty of places to get tooling and I'd guess everybody gets their own set of favorites and I'm sure I don't know half of them. Enco is widely known and they have pretty good prices each month. They also have 'secret' codes that can give free shipping. You'll see the code posted in the first few days of most months in machining and welding forums. A lot of this tooling is pretty heavy so any break on shipping can help a lot.

[schmeky]

I'm not ashamed to say it, but right now I feel overwhelmed. I at this point in time I'm at the bottom of Mt. Learning Curve. Before I do anything, I'm going to take the advice of you guys and learn as much as I can before I do anything on the mill.

I'm going to look for some videos and tutorials. I see the logic in the vise, makes perfect sense now that it's rational has been explained. I will purchase what I need to be safe and proficient, but I may have to wait a couple weeks, and simply order a few baiscs to start.

Please don't leave me now. I need input from you guys.

[lesterg3]

Schmeky,

I have not read all of the posts on this thread so if I am offering advice that has previously been submitted please forgive me.

Is there any chance that your local community college has any machining courses available?

If they do this would give you a good opportunity to do some basic machining, on a variety of machines, at a very low cost to familiarize yourself with different types of machine tools and what they can and cannot do. It would also be good experience for you.

Just my humble opinion.

[freakshow10mm]

Take it slow. Get a few chunks of 6061 aluminum and make chips. Aluminum is easy to machine and learn on. Machining is speeds and feeds (speed of tool and how fast you feed it into the workpiece).

[krs]

:) It's OK schmeky, I'm sure that everyone who's posted here and many more who haven't know exactly how you're feeling about it.

You're on the right track exactly. By asking before spending you're going to save a lot of bucks and maybe more importantly, a lot of frustration.

See if you can find a place that works with aluminum and ask for a few drops - they're unused cutoff pieces. It's not likely anymore that you'll find any place that throws the stuff into a dumpster for free Sunday pickup by scrounging home machinists but maybe someone will let you have a couple or even one chunk of something. There's a lot of people selling cutoff metals in ebay - I used to buy a lot of good stuff from some guy who had a contract with Boeing in Seattle to take away their scrap, or buy it. I found him in ebay and I've still got a lot of 7075 pieces of 3/8" and 1/2" sheets, nine years later. The thing to look out for, again, is shipping costs. If you do buy from ebay sellers make sure you know what the cost will be before making a bid.

You want metals to practice and learn with, or on. Screwups in scrap metal don't count. So try out shaving that apply piston on scrap before going on to the money part.

You'll find that cutting is a big problem. You won't like trying to cut a piece of big stock to size with your mill. It doesn't work good and you'll have bought every chip that goes on the floor.

A lot of people like the small bandsaw that Harbor Freight sells, and there's lots of good info about modifying the little sucker to do all kinds of tricks or work for people better, just like what you're probably seeing about the mini-mills.

Mainly get into the home machining forums and ask questions in those, just like here.

[schmeky]

Does this Seig Mini Mill require a collet holder, or will an R8 collet go directly into the spindle?

[gwillys]

its made for R8 collets, endmill holders & chucks - direct fit.

[Alchymist]

Here's one favorite, (just read the forum rules, the owner can get testy about home machinists & asian machines, but it's a good resource on all aspects of machining...
/www.practicalmachinist.com/

[Rex B]

Be aware that Seig X2 mills come with either MT3 or R8 spindle, depending on what brand you buy.
Get the R8 unless you have an MT3 lathe that you want to share tooling with.

[jack404]

G'day Schmeky

heres my small smithing workshop at home

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu332/jack404_photo/myshopathome.jpg

yes the seig machines will cut the grades of steel your after but you will need to get the specs right on the machine

the grizzly spec is 400 watt motors not 250 which most X2's have

this is enough to drive your tools

you may have to relax the metal first for some applications and heat temper it again afterwards but thats not hard

but i do rifl and pistol work on these small machines and have made quite a few from scratch ( after the 2 months of paper work for Australia)

hope this helps

jack

oh in the pic i have a chuck in the mill i also have collets up the yin yang but in this shot i was useing a buff pad a few mins before

i prefer ER 25 Spring collets but we be metric folks here R8 would be more suited to your own world

[Rex B]

Re cutting big pieces down to sizes that fit your mill.
For sheet up to about 1/2" thick, you can use a carbide tipped table saw. Use a new 10" blade with 40 or more teeth.
WD40 makes a good cutting fluid for AL, on the saw or the mill.
Just a squirt now and then.

[schmeky]

Jack404,

That's an awesome set-up you have there. I'm jealous. Everything is close at hand and well organized. Hey Jack, that vise you have on your mill looks just like the one I have.

I just ordered an R8 collet set in 1/16's, from 1/8 thru 7/8. Received my clamping set today. Now I'm looking for a parallel set. Haven't cut the first thing yet:(

Have read up on numerous websites and have learned a lot. This is going to be fun. I plan on posting some project pics in the future.

[Alchymist]

His shop is green, mine is red. Otherwise the capabilities appear to be about the same. The second pic shows the aluminum square being milled to mount the Palmgren vice I mentioned earlier. The third pic shows just how versatile the vice mount can be. The piece in question needed a flat milled at an angle, the two vices are held by nothing more than two strong magnets. The last is a degree wheel that started out as a 6X6 inch piece of half inch aluminum. A hacksaw was used to cut off the 4 corners, all other work was done on the rotary table. In the pic it's set up to drill stop holes every 5 degrees around the edge. Not shown is a Proxon jeweler's drill that will hold a 1/4 inch drill, down to about a .02" drill. Uses either collets or a precision chuck. Very handy.

[jack404]

schmeky

Thanks mate

its awful messy today but its a nice little setup for me

some of the advice given here is excellent

Vise's cant say enough about them


a good toolmakers vice is a must as is the flat version i had mounted ( do not use the flats for super accurate work as they are too hard to index)

mounting directly to the table is great but if your machining it try putting a buffer peice under your work to lift it off the table enough to allow you through cut and some spare so you dont cut your table to peices

a X3 mill has way more power but i'm replacing my gear drive with a little machine shop belt drive kit in a month or so and this will bring the drive power up a lot

what i have spent on machine i have tripled with tooling

good tooling and mounting is 70% of any job

because your dealing with smaller machines they can be vibrated loose so check your tramming ( straightness of the mill head) and mounting regularly

to avoid mishaps

carbide tools for hard metals

2 flutes for deep cuts
4 for surface cuts

lots of simple stuff to learn

i've got a set of movies about useing workshop tooling that will show you a lot when it comes to setting up and machining

PM me a address and i'll put them on a DVD and send em its about 8 hours worth of video

cheers

jack

[44-henry]

Take a look at www.littlemachineshop.com and order the basic videos on milling from Swarf Rat. I purchased several of these videos that have been useful for some of the classes I teach because they break things down in very simple, easy to follow directions. These instructions are also geared towards the Asian mill and lathes.

[schmeky]

Jack404,

PM sent.

[schmeky]

Could keyway stock be used as a parallel?

[krs]

Accuracy......you've got to think in thousandth (.001") at least, tenths one ten thousandth of an inch - .(0001") is better.

Not that you'll achieve tenths accuracy all the time but thinking in those terms will make it easier to see that errors in thousandths are significant, if not huge.

I mentioned this far up in the thread, schmeky, and now with your question about keystock it's become timely.

Measure the keystock. If it is within .001" in all dimensions over it's entire length it'll do as a crappy parallel.

The cheapest parallels from China are within .0005" (that's one half of one thousandths of an inch) because they effect everything the mill does when you use them.

Remember how 1911Tuner will repeat the phrase "tolerance stacking" when he's describing how the parts of a 1911 fit or sometimes don't fit and work satisfactorily? The same term applies in your machining. One part that works against another part each of them .002" over their design size. That means that together they are .004" too big and in a pistol, say frame rails and slide fit the pistol won't go together. This may be an overly simple example to use but we ARE in a gun forum gunsmithing section.

If you use marginal set up tools you will obtain mediocre results. It's hard enough to machine accurately without deliberately handicapping your efforts.

OK?

I don't mean to sound like a perfectionist but I've made enough mistakes to have seen how important the smallest error can be someplace further along in any project.

It's time for thinking in very small increments. You have a set of calipers, right? Clean the jaws with a patch, then close them and zero the dial or readout. Now open your caliper to read .001" and hold it up to a light. Small, ain't it?

Some things have acceptable tolerances it's true but it will help you a lot not to begin to think in terms of acceptable tolerance. Tolerance = error. How much error is OK in your kid's racing transmission? How much error is acceptable to YOU?

[schmeky]

krs,

I understand. It's similiar to the production machine shop I was exposed to years ago. The shop foreman once told me a good machinist with quality tools, can produce excellent work from a substandard piece of equipment. This make sense to me. Proper set-up, measurement, and rechecking the work as you go is critical.

You're in essence saying if you add up a bunch of minus', don't expect a plus at the end of the equation. I have good set of mic's. I'll do a dimensional check on some key stock (which I should have done already) and see how consistent it is.

I do plan on buying a good parallel set soon. I guess I'm just getting anxious to get started.

Your transmission analogy is appropriate.

[Rex B]

I would suggest you can get by with some makeshift tooling while you learn the machine. You will be doing plenty of odd brackets and adapters as you figure out just what that little mill is good for. None of those will have critical dimensions.
Just make sure you know when your skill catches up with your tooling, and have good tooling on hand before you start a project that really counts.

[BCRider]

Jack 404, that's an awsome gunsmithing bench full of machines you've got there. Short of doing your own rifle barrels I can't imagine what you can't do unless it's make some of the larger jigs to hold the parts you're working on.

Schmecky, I loved your referene to Mt Learning Curve.... :D Truer words were never typed. I've been doing metal working as a hobby and sometimes fill in job for much of my 55 years on this ball of dirt and I'm still learning with each project. Sometimes it's the need for patience and thinking ahead and other times it's some new technique I read about and other times its figuring out how to recover from an "oops" or cutting something open and finding something you didn't expect.

If you're in a major center check out your local main library for metal working books. Get anything you can lay your hands on since it's free to borrow. Read it all and soak it in. Even the hand tool techniques can sometimes provide a hint on how to set up for machine cuts.

The others have guided you on vises and machines so all that's left now is learning to use it all. Never underestimate or dismiss the time and thought taken to hold the workpiece and how to arrange your cutting operations. I've often spent double or triple or even quadruple the time for the actual final product machining or making up jigs, cutting tools or other gizmos to allow me to machine the workpiece. Often the gismo ends up being a big "WTH is THIS!" when I come across it years later:D This is just the nature of the game.

As for using key stock as parallels the answer is "it depends". Only you can know if the tolerances on keystock are sufficient for the work you're doing. HOwever if it helps I've taken to keeping some ground HSS lathe tooling around to use as poor man's parallels. But I mic them before trusting them. Only one went back to getting ground into a tool bit and the others all passed muster being within around 1/2 to 1 thou over the 4 inch length or better. Check out rectangular tool bits that come in a variety of sizes. And do be sure to stone off the burrs on the edges before mic'ing them for size. The burr threw me on a couple of tests until I realized what was happening.

[schmeky]

BCRider,

Appreciate the response, the library suggestion is an excellent idea, thanx. I never copy anybody because I copy everyone.

I milled a couple of pieces of steel tonight just getting the feel for the mini-mill; I think this thing is the cats whiskers. Using a new 1/4" 4FL end mill on low speed, adequate lube/coolant, shallow cuts and slow feed speeds, I was amazed at the beauty of the milled surfaces.

Hell, I'm hooked:p

[schmeky]

I understand how to square the vise with the feed axis using my Starrett dial indicator. So how do I level an item? Can I use the dial indicator mounted in the spindle to do this as well? Could I -0- the dial indicator then run it along the part to be milled using the X axis feed, for instance?

How about leveling a small part?

[jack404]

schmeky

123 blocks, Vee block and square blocks are all ways to get small bits flat with the base ( or parralell)

its also why i stated putting somehing under your work to avoid damaging the table and removing what square you have there

tool steeel does not have guarenteed square edges i just measured some 3/8 sq tool steel and it varied a heap!

disks will go out tomorrow and i've added a pile of plans and how toos for setting up machines pertaining to gun making

and you see in the video's how to mark up and get stuff square

cheers

jack

glad you be makin chips

[Alchymist]

Quote: "I understand how to square the vise with the feed axis using my Starrett dial indicator. So how do I level an item? Can I use the dial indicator mounted in the spindle to do this as well? Could I -0- the dial indicator then run it along the part to be milled using the X axis feed, for instance?

How about leveling a small part?"

I use one of these.......

[madcratebuilder]

Here are some links to check out.
Make your own tools, that is the first thing I did, made some tools and some improvements to both my mill and lathe, great learning experience.
http://homepage3.nifty.com/amigos/index-e.html

Collection of hits and tips.
http://www.eztram.com/hints.asp

More tools.
http://www.finelinehair.com/home/index.htm

The mill well lead to a lathe.
http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/

More tips
http://shopswarf.orconhosting.net.nz/sindex.html

[krs]

Good stuff Madcrate, and the shopswarf site has been help for a whole span of stuff for me over the years.

Schmeky, there's practically nothing you can't do.

There's a guy in Italy who built a completely authentic running (you had to hear his little V12 rev to 10,000 rpm!) Ferrari sports car in about 1/3 scale. It was six feet long as I recall, looked exactly like the real model of Ferrari he'd copied and was authentic right down to the type of leather used for his seats. I had a link to it but don't find it now. I think he said it took him over six years to build in an interview on the news site where I saw it, and when the interviewer asked him what's next after that he said that he had a different model of Ferrari already begun. He said he'd wanted a Ferrari car since he was a child but accepted that he'd never be able to afford to buy one, so he built it.

One of my favorites is this Canadian gun maker - http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Kucer.htm
who not only makes guns but also built his own machine tools to do it. Made a small version of Bridgeport mill, a small lathe, a pantograph, a bandsaw, - all of it homemade.

Watch out for the time it takes to make some of the simple tooling you'll need. I think if you add up the time and material cost to make a set of 1/8" parallels, just using the example previously discussed, it'll amount to a lot more than the cost of buying an imported set. This runs true for a lot of 'making own tooling' endeavors and if all your time goes to projects like that you'll never get around to your Ferrari. :)

Tooling from Poland is often nicer than the Chinese equivalent, BTW, and not always much more expensive. I don't mean the machines - they're nicer too but a WHOLE bunch more expensive.

[olyeller]

You guys are all very high road!

thanks for sharing info for all.

[BCRider]

I understand how to square the vise with the feed axis using my Starrett dial indicator. So how do I level an item? Can I use the dial indicator mounted in the spindle to do this as well? Could I -0- the dial indicator then run it along the part to be milled using the X axis feed, for instance?

How about leveling a small part?

Yes you can. You'll need to alter the pin's movement direction obviously but once it's sensing the correct axis you can then just move the table under the indicator pin and correct for any runout by shimming or just lightly gripping the piece and tapping it until it indicates within your required tolerance for the item.

By the way. Something you should do at some point is to indicate the milling quill with the table to check that your cutting axis is dead on vertical to the table. The way to do that is fab up a temporary arm that fits into the qull and that you can rotate in a circle that is about the same diameter as the width of the table. Then you run the indicator around and take notes of the readings at the most forward, rear, right and left points. Likely there will be a bit of a difference. This can be shimmed out by loosening the column at the base and using shims as needed to alter the column angle. Recheck until you're within a thou difference over a 4 inch or so diameter. Brass shim is the best but in a pinch for fine tuning household aluminium foil has always mic'ed out at .001 inch for me. It's soft though so make sure you can open up the column gap enough to slide it in cleanly. If you have to jack in a diagonal direction try to put two layers of whichever under the low corner and 1 layer under the adjacent two corners so the pads are all supported as evenly as practical.

Now yes, astute machinists may have realized by now that depending on the column to quill alignment that this may actually result in a column that is out of true vertical. And this needs to be taken into consideration. For myself I've got a round column mill/drill so the only Z axis I can use during cuts is the quill itself. The column travel is only used for setting up prior to cuts. So if the column in my case isn't vertical it's not a big deal. For a dovetail column that supports Z axis travel cuts you would not want to do it this way. The shimming aspect is still viable but you'd want to check the Z with the indicator using a precision square and then set the quill axis using some other method depending on the machine.

Once you've zero'ed your quill to the table then it is well worth checking your milling vise. I'd suggest you indicate the bed rails of the fixed portion as well as the tops of the jaws. If it is practical you may want to look at shimming or skim cutting the vise mounting surfaces and/or jaws to end up with the moving jaw bed and the tops of the jaws true to a quill within a small tolerance. Considerable study of the vise and how to support it for this work would be needed. Alternately if only a hair of adjustment is required then "lapping" the base or other parts in some manner may do the job. The "how" is purely up to how far out the vise is and if the design permits removal of material to correct it. Each case would be unique. But regardless it's time well spent to do this so that you can rely on it in the future to be in alignment to your machines. Even if you find it's close enough or the design and materials prevent you doing any corrective actions at least keep track of the small about of skew so you can compensate for it during critical setups.

tool steeel does not have guarenteed square edges i just measured some 3/8 sq tool steel and it varied a heap!

Yeah, it's definetly a case of YMMV. The samples I've checked were close enough for "poor man's parallels" but they aren't perfect by any means. But when I need something closer than what I can get from the tool bits I switch to indicating the work instead of relying on parallels. Actually for one job where this wasn't practical (repetitive pieces) I made my own parallel. It's not hard, just tedious. It requires a support block to hold the thin material straight up and down and a known flat area to put the wet or dry sandpaper onto for the abrasive plate to do the forming. In my case I bought a 12 x 18 granite surface plate years ago when a local tool place had them on sale for $40. But if you check something like your table saw table with shims you can soon tell if it's dead level or not. Alternately a 12 inch square of super heavy plate glass makes for a pretty nice poor man's surface plate. 1/2 inch or thicker glass works well. Get a shop to cut and bevel the edges. You should be able to get this for cheap. That and some blueing from a felt pen to ensure the progress is even. So now I've got a set of one.... :D

[schmeky]

Something you should do at some point is to indicate the milling quill with the table to check that your cutting axis is dead on vertical to the table

I understand exactly what you are saying. I saw a tool on a website that does just that, however, I feel with a little ingenuity, one can be made. You essentially need something that will securely clamp around the quill and extend the dial indicator in a rigid manner to the outboard reaches of the table.

Thanx for pointing this out, I can see how this could pose a problem if you're using a lot of table feed.

I've learned more on this thread than I've learned in quite some time. Thanx to all for your input. I'm soaking all this up.

[krs]

I just this week treated myself to one of these: http://spindlesquare.com/

Enco put it on sale and after years of trammeling by chasing an indicator round the table with a flashlight and reading glasses it's just like magic.



Schmeky, I'm not recommending this tool to you. My mill needs trameling both on x-axis and on y-axis making it double the chore and the big mill is surrounded now with tires, a shopvac and just plain built up stuff making it more difficult each year for my old bones to perform the contortions needed to do that nasty both directions.

What I DO recommend is that in starting out you think of ways in which you can manuever your workpiece under the as much as permanently trammed in spindle. Your tooling will become more versatile and you'll be late checking into the funny farm. :)


Now having read BCRider's excellent assistance I would add that it's best to not rely on any zeroing or trammel markings placed on your machine or a rotary vice mount or any other such marking. They're not always, even not often correct in what they're supposed to be, so form the habit of verifying everything to your own satisfaction. This one might save you a lot of grief, particularly with the Chinese machinery and accessories, but also with some of the highest regarded equipment. Trust nothing unless you've measured it yourself.

(dinnertime...)

[madcratebuilder]

Be sure and sign up for ENCO's news letter and special offers. They have free shipping often, and that can really help if your wanting that granite surface plate.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRHM

This place was everything, I find it a good source for tiny shims in stainless, nylon, Teflon, plus odd nuts and bolts. That pack of S&W hammer shims that sells for $16, here's it's $8.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#

Good place to buy steel, brass.....
http://www.discountsteel.com/index.cfm/go/main.home.htm

Eye candy
http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/index.html

If you want to do micro work, these folks have great stuff.
http://www.gesswein.com/catalog/home.cfm?CFID=1033905&CFTOKEN=14751577

Another good material supply house.
http://www.smallparts.com/

[BCRider]

I understand exactly what you are saying. I saw a tool on a website that does just that, however, I feel with a little ingenuity, one can be made.......

I've seen that too. If it's the one that sits the dial guage up front and so it can't move while the arm moves around that's a sweetheart of a toy. But it's not all that often that you need to do this sort of deal. What I did is just make up an L shaped arm that I bolted my bigger dial guage to using the eye tab on the back. For reading the back side where it was facing away I just used a small pocket mirror.

Trust me, you'll have LOTS of gizmos and tooling to make up for your machines. Try to be pragmatic about it and keep some of the lesser used stuff as simple as you can for now. Later on you can make up the fancy stuff and put it into a presentation box.... :D

[Tomcat47]

Here is a nice set up for any garage.... it is of course expensive compared to a minimill but has so many capabilities. It is single phase as well. I have machined for 25 years and a minimill can have capabilities beyond the norm with experience of years of understanding backlash in a manual machine, climb milling, verses conventional milling etc. they are not forgiving on these circumstances and can cost you enourmously when dealing with slides etc. even when trying to take small cuts they can grab your part and its all over.

The mini mill will do the job... no question about it.

But! I have made the mistake before just trying to get the minimum and ended up wanting more, only to end up there later.

This machine is an awesome home package at $3395.00 and free shipping.
The G3617 - Single Phase, Horizontal & Vertical. I will also mention that although most of these import machines are made from a few importers and painted different colors.... The owner of Grizzly took his business to a different level when he intoduced his own in house shop to inspect and fine tune the machinery as it comes in... before it gets to you! I for one have been impressed with my Grizzly purchases over the years. Customer support is great as well. I ordered a large belt sander and it came in with the switch broken from shipping....reported it to customer service... sent digital pic of damage and they immediately sent me a replacement switch!

[44-henry]

Grizzly is decent to work with, but we have had our fair share of problems with some of the equipment. In the last two years I have purchased 3 of their 9x42 mills, (5) 9x19 lathes, and one 6x12 surface grinder. I ended up replacing the motors on two of the mills, replacing the switch on the surface grinder, and two of the lathes had to be sent back to the factory for repair. Granted Grizzly has been decent about sending spare parts for the repairs; however, I have lost a lot of time doing repairs myself.

Most of the problems we have had have been with the electrical, but I wouldn't say that Grizzly is checking all of the machines when they leave the factory as we have had problems with some of the equipment right out of the crate. Mechanically the mills are great machines, but I sure wish that the factories could sort out the electrical problems as changing a motor out on the mill takes some time.

[madcratebuilder]

Most of the problems we have had have been with the electrical, but I wouldn't say that Grizzly is checking all of the machines when they leave the factory as we have had problems with some of the equipment right out of the crate. Mechanically the mills are great machines, but I sure wish that the factories could sort out the electrical problems as changing a motor out on the mill takes some time.

I have been doing a no load run in on all my equipment. 1 min run, 2 min run, up to a 5 minute run with a cool down between. I may not do a thing but it does give me a liitle more peace of mind. Plus I have not had motor problems with any of the motors I have run it.
I agree that Grizz is a step above the other importers and their customer service is great.

[krs]

44-Henry, you've got to special order for machines that came over in the hold of their container ship. The ones that ride on the deck get splashed in a heavy sea. :)


Grizzly really shines in their woodworking tools. I think metal cutting was an afterthought to the guitar and furniture making hobbyist who started the company. Boy have they got some neat wood tools!

One of those vertical/horizontal mills such as the one shown by Tomcat above would be the replacement for my Bridgeport, except the Bridgeport shows no sign of needing replacement. Looks like I'll croak before it will.

But there've been times I'd have liked a horizontal mill. It's only laziness that makes something combined seem attractive though, as most any mill can be made to do pretty much any cut desired IF there's room for the workpiece to be mounted within range of the cutting head.

So instead of thinking that bigger and better machines are what will make you successful in what you want to do learn to use what you've got, and spend your ingenuity on ways to manipulate your workpiece and lock it in place for a cut.

Spend your money on the best cutters you can find and afford.

[schmeky]

As this thread winds down, I wanted to post a pic of a "starter" project I just completed. I had a really nice Wilson Stainless Steel Commander 1911 hammer I ruined a few years back. Being the pack rat I am, I kept it in my parts bin. In my feeble attempts a few years ago to be a hobby gunsmith, I cut the hammer hooks to shallow.

I set the hammer up in the mini-mill and re-cut the hooks adding about .006" to the depth and squaring up the sear engagement area. I have a really nice Colt 1911 38 Super I converted to 9mm a few years back and didn't want to take the risk of ruining the original high polish spur hammer. But this pistol has the standard grip safety, not a beavertail that you need to work with a Commander hammer.

I decided to cut the rear of the hammer to see if I could make a Commander hammer work with a standard grip safety. I did, it does, and after some judicous trigger work, wound up with an ice crisp 4.0# trigger pull. I don't care if you laugh at my bastardized hammer; even in the up position, it looks unique, and different.

Man I love this mill. So, if anyone is thinking of taking the "mini-mill" plunge in the future, I say go for it. I could not have made an informed decision to do this without all the help, invaluable information openly shared and given, and experience of those that posted on this thread.

To you guys, all I can say is thank you.
http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8315/img0902.jpg

[krs]

Schmeky, ...... if I had known what you'd end up doing.....

















:)

[BCRider]

Well done for your first project.

It's a heady thing being the master over metal, isn't it? The sound of a happy cutter peeling shavings off is one that makes me smile even now some 43'ish years after making my first metal bit on my dad's lathe.

Tomcat, thanks for the post about your combo mill. I'll be looking to invest in a more sizable mill for my new retirement shop and I like the looks of that Grizzly machine. There's more than a few times I have wished for a horizontal mill.

[Rex B]

Wow, Schmeky, I would not have thought o do something that precise for a starter project.
In fact, I'm not sure I'm up to that level yet!

Good job, and thanks for sharing

[schmeky]

Last post with a pic. Same Colt 9mm 1911, but I wanted a better target type rear sight. This tactical sight is from the CZ Custom shop. I recut the dovetail, resurfaced the face (I had drilled some small "dot" holes I didn't like) and even figured out a way to cut new serrations on the face. Notice the dovetail fit, it's absolutely perfect; looks like it was made for this pistol. This is the re-cut Commander hammer as well in the "up" position, it looks good. Over and out!!
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/815/img0908u.jpg

[madcratebuilder]

If any one needs a milling vise, littlemachineshop.com has this on sale, very good price.

http://littlemachineshop.com/special

I bought this vise several years ago from LMS. You can use it with or without the swivel base.

[krs]

Cute little thing, ain't it? :)

madcrate, he calls it "Kurt style" but does the movable jaw rise at all when it's clamping?

That's what made the Kurt vise's reputation - that their patented "somethingorother" mechanism prevented the rear jaw from deflecting upward under pressure.

Now, after one old Bridgeport and one new Kurt copy before I broke down and bought the Kurt I use I wouldn't want to own a vise that did not prevent any displacement of a part when clamping.

[schmeky]

madcratebuilder,

Thanx for the link, just ordered a vise.

[madcratebuilder]

madcrate, he calls it "Kurt style" but does the movable jaw rise at all when it's clamping?


As near as I can tell it's a clone of the Kurt. I have not put a DI on it to check, but mine feels as tight as the real thing I have used at work, just a lot smaller.
It's a lot of vise for the money, even if only saw drill press duty.

[krs]

OK. It must be that Kurt's patent on their 'anglelock' mechanism (or whatever the name is) has run out. I know that there's at least one other maker that works the same way that Kurt vises work and it would be only a matter of time before every manufacturer in any country would duplicate and offer vises that work the same but cost a lot less.

[schmeky]

OK, I'm dipping back into the well of knowledge. I want to center my spindle over an existing bore. I have a lug mounted dial indicator. Is there an attachment that would allow the indicator to be mounted in a collet, then offset sufficiently to provide indicator contact to achieve -0- round out (in an existing bore)? I also have a permanent post mounted dial indicator (Starret).

Or do I need an indicator like the one in post #101, as suggested by Alchymist?

Lastly, is there a way to set to the thousanth, the tool cutting depth on an indexable boring bar? Please forgive me, for I am not that bright in the ways of the mill as of yet.

[krs]

The simplest thing is a little set of center finders called wigglers as shown on this page: http://www.generaltools.com/Departments/Hand-Tools/Machinist-Tools/Wigglers--Edge-Finders-and-Center-Finders.aspx, : another idea is one of these http://www.blakemanufacturing.com/pages/aboutus.html

The page is only to show the tool type. I don't think I paid $28. for the Starrett set of wigglers I've had a long time. I'd bet they come up in ebay almost all the time.

That's called a Blake coax indicator in the second link and there is a Chinese made copy available for about $50. I have one of them and it works beautifully because it allows keeping the indicator visible while the contact point of the indicator is rotated. Wish I'd have invented that one.

Basically what you want is something to chuck in the spindle that is bent to an offset that will make contact with both sides of your diameter when rotated above the hole. The trick is in knowing exactly when equal contact is made at the four compass points of your diameter. Indicators show the contact more easily than trying to see a wiggler point under lights with the target part in your shiny reflective holding fixture.

[krs]

On setting the depth of cut - does your machine have any sort of adjustable stop for the spindle? Like on a drill press? There should be one, I'd think, but if not that'd be something that the little machine shop guy has surely addressed.

[schmeky]

On setting the depth of cut - does your machine have any sort of adjustable stop for the spindle? Like on a drill press? There should be one, I'd think, but if not that'd be something that the little machine shop guy has surely addressed.

You answered correctly, I phrased the question improperly. What I meant to say is the degree or amount of cut. Example: Say I have an exsiting bore size of .600" and want to increase the bore size to .605". I center the boring bar, make slight contact with the boring bar cutter, then I would need to add .005" to the amount of cut. Can I measure this setting on the boring bar cutter with a standard micrometer?

Does this make sense?

[krs]

does it make sense?

Go to the beginning. Are you using one of the adjustable boring heads that are widely available?

If so, you need to center the machine spindle over the bore to be enlarged first. You would get the spindle centered over the hole, set the boring head to it's own zero and put it into the spindle.

You must not move either the spindle or the table after having centered the spindle or you'll have to recenter it.

With the boring head in the spindle all tight and ready to go you should be able to lower your cutter, machine running, into the bore to be enlarged without the cutter making contact, or no more than a slight shaving contact. Now you would KNOW that everything is centered. This is more or less figurative but not a bad idea for a beginner to do - you need to know that when you go to cut you will be cutting the hole equally at all points of the circle. Anything else will result in an oblong hole.

Stop the machine and crank in your desired .005" on the boring head small micrometer setting device. They usually are pretty reliable. Set and lock the new cutting diameter and go for it.

Wait, you say you don't have a boring head? Go get one.

[44-henry]

Definitely you should get hold of a wiggler for your toolbox, in the future lock your XY axis when drilling and don't move the table (if you can help it) until you are finished, this solves the problem. I have digital readouts on most of the mills I use these days and that also helps because I can easily travel back to the hole center without any tedious calculations and the problems associated with backlash.

[schmeky]

Stop the machine and crank in your desired .005" on the boring head small micrometer setting device.

Thanx. That's what I was looking for.

[MattTheHat]

To all those who posted in this thread: DAMN YOU ALL!!!!! :evil:

My ISP probably thinks grizzly.com and all the other links posted belowng to some porn ring. Throughput to my home and office are WAY too high!

-Matt

[krs]

Thanx. That's what I was looking for.
Schmeky, it's occured to me that not all boring heads are the same, or rather that I don't know if they're all the same.

Point is that if I set mine to increse it's boring size by .005" it's actually moving the cutter out half of that amount or .0025". It's sets the radius and the diameter made will be twice the radius.

I should have thought to mention this caution in post #128.

[schmeky]

Point is that if I set mine to increse it's boring size by .005" it's actually moving the cutter out half of that amount or .0025". It's sets the radius and the diameter made will be twice the radius.

Thanx, however, I was aware the total bore increase is a result of 1/2 the bore cutter setting. But I'm confident I'll screw some things up soon.

[BCRider]

To all those who posted in this thread: DAMN YOU ALL!!!!!

My ISP probably thinks grizzly.com and all the other links posted belowng to some porn ring. Throughput to my home and office are WAY too high!

-Matt

You're WELCOME ! :D Yes it IS a sickness. The ability to create in metal will empower you with a thrill unlike anything else. It's almost like the feelings Dr Frankenstein felt when the lightning hit.... :D

Scmecky, you got the right idea but trust me, when the cutter kisses the steel it's already cutting at least a thou or two. Opening up a hole from .600 to .605 would call for setting up the boring head and cutter on some scrap to size then swap the scrap and center the piece with the .600 and then bore it using the preset head.

On opening holes with more meat to play with I'd set the cutter to a light cut, like your kiss and maybe a thou more then cut a pass and measure it. Adjustments would be made using the boring head from there. On cuts that require I move the head more than about 10 to 15 thou I'd get close and then measure again and adjust for a smaller finish size cut based on what I find.

[schmeky]

BC,

Thanx. I have CD that shows how to set the initial cut using a ZigZag rolling paper as a gauging device. Pretty neat. These papers are .001" thickness. I may give it a try.

[BCRider]

Common kitchen aluminium foil is also .001. That may save you if you don't smoke.... :D

[schmeky]

Common kitchen aluminium foil is also .001

Excellent tip, thank you. I don't roll my own anymore (or anything else for that matter), I'm in recovery, seriously. :)