[PerfectGlock]

http://www.military.com/NewsContent?file=usa2_100703&ESRC=dod.nl

Sounds like a system C-More developed earlier and seen in the Sci-Fi movie "The One".

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Knight's Manufacturing makes something along these lines as well... IIRC theirs was primarily a breaching tool.

[MJRW]

HOLY CRAP I WANT ONE. I ALMOST SOILED MYSELF READING ABOUT THAT.

Sorry for the excitement. Just OMG that is home defense/communist repelling/deer hunting/bear hunting/duck hunting/target shooting/skeet shooting in one handy dandy package. Now if only it were concealable.

[C.R.Sam]

The stand-alone weighs 4 pounds, 3 ounces and is 24 inches long, collapsed. Really wonderful for an all purpose 12 ga shotgun.

I'll pass, thanks anyway.

Want rifles for the riflemen.
Granade launchers for the grenadiers.
etc.

Single purpose tools work better in the hands of skilled craftsmen.

Sam

[Ant Mod]

Single purpose tools work better in the hands of skilled craftsmen

Kind of the Germans philosophy during world war one. Give bolt action rifles to the riflemen because we trian them to use it. The US was in the mindest, give one rifle to everyone, make it simple enough to use and clean and shoot that farm boys could fire it.

[BluesBear]

The attachment variation is 16.5 inches in length...
So by the time you subtract 6½" to 7" for the receiver length, you get about a 10" barrel? :scrutiny:

Does it have a 3" chamber & screw in choke tubes? :D

[CWL]

This idea has been around since the 1970s, you can get plans from Paladin Press for adding an 870 to the bottom of your AR15. Looks like the only real difference/advantage is decreased weight.

Perhaps useful for trained specialists in breaching applications.

I shudder at the idea to combine less-lethal rounds with hot rifle for crowd control. Sounds like recipe for fatal accidents -fuel for more anti-American attrocities claims.

[Apple a Day]

NOW can we convince the Supreme Court that there IS a military use for a shortened-barrel shotgun? :cuss:

[anapex]

Haven't these been around for awhile? I kinda remember reading about them in the "Blackhawk Down" book by Bowden.

[ajacobs]

From the description this is something compleatly new. Not the Knight armament doorknocker. Sounds interesting though with the straight pull bolt and the use of a magazine. I don't really have any desire for one but it does sound interesting. I am not sure of which niche it fills.

[Balog]

ajacobs wrote

I am not sure of which niche it fills.

My thoughts exactly. You take a carbine useful only for CQB where quick handling is vital, and strap several pounds of straight-pull (cycles about as fast as a bolt-action) shotgun to it:confused: What good could this possibly do? I could see strapping a grenade launcher on a rifle. Yeah, I think it would be LOTS better to have M-79 (or an equivalent) equipped dedicated grenadiers, but a 203 or GP-25 is still a useful thing for a grunt to have. This is useless.

[Destructo6]

It sounds like a new variation of the old "Masterkey".

A subgun would be better in CQB, but it's not going to cut the hinges off doors to allow you into the close quarters.

It seems silly to put that weight on the front of a M4 if you're only rarely going to use it. It would seem better to issue a short barreled and pistolgripped (no butt) 870 for door breaching to one or two riflemen in each squad.

[WT]

The guys have been grumbling that the M4 doesn't have the range needed for work in A-Land. Guess this new shotgun is supposed to take care of those head shots at 800 yards.

Bring back the Garand!

[JimJD]

Ok, but what does it look like?
I remember the one that was in the movie Predator...Heh-heh... Gov. Arnold.... um... anyway, it sounds like fun.
SWAT units may be interested in this one.

[Anthony]

If one were to do such a conversion of a Mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel mounted onto a full length AR-15 with a 20 inch barrel, would there be any violation of federal law by mounting an 18" barreled shotgun without a stock of any kind attached to the receiver?

I can't think of any such law on the books.

Anyone?

It looks like the barrels would end up at about the same length from eyeballing it.

[BluesBear]

If I were to totally remove the stock from my 18" barreled Mossy500 it would still measure 25½". That means muzzle would stick out just a "tad bit" past the AR15 muzzle. Plus the extra weight would be considerable.
:(




But if you were to do this using a Mossberg 590 on a pre-ban AR15 you could mount TWO bayonets! :evil:

[BluesBear]

Mossberg 500 on an AR15 would look like this.

[USGuns]

Here you guys go, I believe this is it. Pictures 7, 8 and 9 here:
http://www.custom-glock.com/shot4.html

[C.R.Sam]

Military application.
I think MOST breaching could be more safely accomplished by inserting a gernade or two in a window, and then declairing the window to be the new door.

Sam

[Daniel Watters]

Additional C-More LLS Pictures (1 of 3)

[Daniel Watters]

(double tap - please delete)

[Daniel Watters]

Additional C-More LLS Pictures (2 of 3)

[Daniel Watters]

Additional C-More LLS Pictures (3 of 3)

[Obiwan]

I believe there have been some issues with receivers cracking with this setup.

[Badger Arms]

That looks like a Saiga magazine. Bolt handle looks like it can switch sides (although a cleaner receiver with bolt handle on the LEFT makes more sense. This looks like it could be a civilian SBS or AOW with the proper paperwork!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=534650

[Andrew Wyatt]

that's darn cool.

ut a good pair of clip up ar-15 sights on it and bam, you've got yourself a pdw.

[Correia]

I believe Badger is right. I have a Saiga, and that looks exactly like a Saiga magazine.

I wouldn't mock the idea to much. Some of the guys from Delta Force used master keys (cut down 870s under their carbines) in Somalia. I'm not going to question what they like in guns. :)

[Carnitas]

Well that's one way to kill two birds with one stone.

Bird 1) Ar Unreliability
Bird 2) 223's poor stopping power.

Now if they would just hang a .308 battlerifle off the bottom of the Shotgun they'd have a real winner.

[Onslaught]

I am not sure of which niche it fills.
This is useless.
I'll pass, thanks anyway.

So you can't bird hunt with it, an it's terrible for making head shots at 600 meters... But these are being issued specifically to the "10th Mountain Division for future use in Afghanistan". These are the guys searching the caves for badd'uns, correct? I can sure think of a couple reasons they might need a good, LIGHT WEIGHT (2lb, 11oz) shotgun in hand, while still holding their M4 in hand.... rather than a grenade launcher.

Bird 1) Ar Unreliability
Bird 2) 223's poor stopping power.


:rolleyes:
Come ON! Can we BEAT this dead horse any more than it already is??? I mean, you guys are like my WIFE with that "AR unreliability thing"... So I was a bad boy in the vietnam war honey, but that was YEARS ago, I don't do that stuff anymore! can't we let that drop! :neener:


But hey, maybe I watch too many Sci-Fi action movies to have an opinion :D

[Andrew Wyatt]

it's mostly a masterkey system, but with the stock option, it has utility as a room clearing weapon.


what's not to like? The pointy end of the sword guys have what they need.

[Badger Arms]

Room clearing? It's a single shot, manually operated repeater. This is a tool more than it is a weapon. Give me a Mossberg (blach :barf: ) any day. At least I can shuck a round in that one quicker. For its intended purpose of a door opener, I can see it has great utility.

BUT, Why not just slap an aluminum or carbon-fiber sleeved barrel on a Mossberg clamped to the bottom of the M-4? Just as light, no magazine to snag, drop accidentally, or lose, barrel and action just as long, and a proven track record of reliability. Beyond that, it uses standardized parts which are already available in the supply chain! You might need a 'Maverick' safety and some adapter system.

[Blain]

A subgun would be better in CQB

Not a chance.

I think this is a great idea, esp for CQB. However, I would fear firing the 4lb standalone version. A 4lbs shotgun firing heavy buck and slugs??? :what:

[USGuns]

Too bad they didn't have an autoloader version that doesn't require the bolt to be manually manipulated to load the next round. Seems like in combat you'd just want to pull the trigger and shoot but I'm no expert so I'll leave that up to the REAL experts!

I guess that would probably increase the weight, complexity and cost but would be pretty slick in a weapon that size! :D

[dport]

I'm so glad all you internet commandos know what's best for our guys who are forward deployed. After all, you're right there reading about their exploits on the internet. You all, of course, have more tactical saavy than any GI who is issued a weapon. After all you spend your hard-earned money on your firearms, and due to your extensive internet research you know all possible tactical situations our boys will encounter and know, due to your vast internet experience, the appropriate hardware solution for them. And, of course, a pump gun is preferable to operate when it is stuck on the far end of an M4. :rolleyes:

The fact is the military is becoming more and more responsive to our servicemember's needs in the field. Thankfully, they are getting more input on the equipment they will use. Do I know if this contraption is a good idea? No, but I'm sure the boys in the 10th Mountain are reading detailed after action reports with a keen eye to lessons learned. I'll also wager they are talking to the soldiers who have BTDT in Afghanistan and are asking questions about what works and what doesn't. It's their lives on the line, and they are getting to evaluate a potential tool to save THEIR LIVES. More power to them.

[Badger Arms]

DPORT:

Your point confuses me? Speaking for myself, I have carried a Remington 870 on active duty and it worked very well, thank you. That doesn't make me an expert, but... Speaking as one of "THEM," I can say that I welcome others opinions on the matter. As for my opinion, the shotgun is a tool for opening doors and for intimidating prisoners. Beyond that, there is limited utility involved. It's more precise than a Claymore, takes less time to set up than C-4, and won't help you that much beyond about 20 yards in a firefight, and then only after your M-4 is empty and before you pull out your M-9 if you've got one. If you're going to strap it to an M-4, great! I'd rather have a SAW myself, but I suppose the combination would be a mite lighter than a SAW, but you don't need but a couple per platoon.It's their lives on the line, and they are getting to evaluate a potential tool to save THEIR LIVES. More power to them.Please tell me where somebody said that our troops should not have these shotguns?

This is a shotgun forum and the members of this forum are brainstorming and discussing ideas. How is that being an Internet Commando?

[dport]

And I have carried Mossberg 500/590's on duty what's your point? I'll wager that neither one of us has had to use it in a cave-clearing role. Others in this thread have said it is "useless" and that they didn't know what "niche it filled." Basically, they implied the weapon system was a waste. That is an interesting judgement from people who are sitting behind a keyboard. If the 10th Mountain says it's a waste, I'll take their word for it, but I'm not, nor should anyone, dismiss the weapons viability based on the opinions of some internet commandos. And that sir, is my point.

You said it's not useful much past 20 yards in a firefight. I'd bet that firefights in caves or in building clearing don't often exceed 20 yards. Looks to me like they found a shotgun that weighs about as much as a cut down 870/590, is faster to reload, and attaches to an M4/M16.

[keederdag]

I thought min. OAL lenght on a shotgun was 27" per ATF. So that would let us civi's out without the stamp right?:(

[Badger Arms]

DPORT:

One poster called them useless and spelled out his reason why. Another poster called him on it. You proceded to dismiss the entire thread and all of the posters based on that one statement? Further, the 10th Mountain seems interested in the gun for its doorbusting abilities and that's all.

I, speaking as an internet commando, seriously question the utility of a straight pull bolt-action shotgun in cave warfare. The detatchable magazine is a nice touch, but I don't think anybody expects to use it for cave clearing. In fact, I seriously doubt that it will be used to clear anything. To get into the building, you need a different round than you need once your're inside. What about locked doors inside? The manual of arms for the door buster will be to load 5 or 6 hinge-breaking rounds, shoot enout to breach the door, and then quickly switch gun positions so that he is useful on entry.

For room clearing, you'd have to switch magazines and crank the hinge busting round out to load a buck load. I seriously doubt that the threat inside the room would give you time to do that.

I like the idea of the shotgun mounted on the M-4. It allows the 'locksmith' to quicly switch to a proper entry gun and therefore add one person to the entry team. I'd just rather see a faster shooting gun.

[Blain]

I'm sure a breaching round used to bust down doors, would do quite a number on a man if used. I mean, they can just load the first round up with the breach round and have all follow ups as buck.

[dport]

For the record, I never specified who the internet commandos where. I was hardly impeaching the entire thread. Merely commenting on a certain type of person. You, however, got defensive immediately. If you feel my description does not apply to you then no need for you to get defensive.

My problem is dismissing a concept out of hand with no first hand experience and no first hand knowledge of the problem the concept is attempting to solve. It might look useless to someone sitting in front of their keyboard. It might not look so useless to someone who is forward deployed.

Which brings me to my main point, being wrapped up in the whole technical gun discussion, you seem to have missed it. Here it is again:

The fact is the military is becoming more and more responsive to our servicemember's needs in the field. Thankfully, they are getting more input on the equipment they will use...It's their lives on the line, and they are getting to evaluate a potential tool to save THEIR LIVES. More power to them.

[Checkman]

Dport to some extent I agree with you. I was assigned to the 10th Mountain until Feb 2000 when I seperated from the Army. I think what needs to be pointed out is that not every soldier is going to be carrying an M-4 with this new weapon. It will be more then likely issued like the grenade launcher and SAW and the important thing to remember is that the soldier using this weapon will NOT be alone. He (or she) will have other troops backing them up - LOTS of firepower. These aren't cops or private citizens who often have to go it alone for the first few minutes

Like you I applaud the fact that the Army is finally starting to be more responsive. I've always admired the fact that the MArines are more willing to adopt weapons that fill a tactical niche - goverment procurment be dammed. The Army has always been more more resistant and has consequently not always issued weapons that are suitable for the situation. That's one of the tings about war though - the purse strings have a way of getting loose.

[Dr.Rob]

Bring back the Garand?

Well maybe if we welded some weaver rails on top of it and chopped off the stock so it would fit UNDER an M-4...

That thing looks like a one use tool.. primarily a door buster that allows the user to still have a rifle in his hands. Not a bad idea.