[dastardly-D]

Would anyone know if Taylors and Company Inc. 1858 Remington conversion revolvers worth the $. They do look good in the 8'' barrel 45,I'm wondering if they shoot well and are worth the $450 ?

[scrat]

thats a good price but it depends on what type of cylinder. If its and R&D drop in then its standard. If its a Kirst than thats a steal. Either way i guess i would do it myself. You can buy an 1858 then buy a R&D drop in cylinder and still have the original. It will run about the same. except you have two cylinders to shoot. Or spend a little more. Get the 1858 then get a Kirst conversion with loading gate.

[sundance44s]

Scrat I beleive he`s talking about this one ....it`s more a factory conversion that Remington would have done 1868ish http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/cfRemingtonConversion.tpl

[madcratebuilder]

I think Taylor does a good job on those. If I was inclined to have a conversion other than a Colt I would seriously look at the Taylor guns. You can't buy(retail) the parts and do the work yourself for that money.

[sundance44s]

I`ve been thinking about selling some of my drop in conversions and buying one of the Taylors factory done myself ...I haven`t heard much about them though ...would like to hear more from those that own them .
All I`ve heard is that ...Uberti makes them ...they are forged steel framed ....it all sounds good for the price ...sure would like to put my hands on one ........I`m also wondering if they will shoot the 45 Schofields like my drop in conversions will .
No way could you make the conversion your self for the price . This is a gated conversion ..no need to remove cylinder for loading or unloading ...complete with ejector .....the pic on the Taylors site doesn`t show it well .

[Riot Earp]

The Uberti 1858 conversion is a nice gun. It's steel is a bit harder than Uberti's cap & ball steel, but it's not as attractive to my eye as an 1858 with a Kirst installed. And that ejector is kind of useless, at least to me. But the price is certainly right.

[sundance44s]

Riot does the ejector rod have a return spring on it ??? what I`m getting at is will it stay put , comming out of a holster ?
Shooting reloads there are times I have to poke the emptys out of my drop in conversions ..
Also is the conversion cylinder made like the Kirst ? quality wise ?

[Riot Earp]

Alas, there is no ejector spring. The originals, with few exceptions, didn't have a spring either. Here's one of the rare ones that did:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125134432

I handled one in a store last year. The ejector locks -- I use the term loosely -- into a slot in the loading lever. You have to drop the lever slightly to rotate the ejector into a usable position. I am not sure if it'll "stay put" coming out of a holster, but I would guess that it would. It's an imperfect design that I don't care for. And the Uberti rod is a bit flimsy. The Kirst rod looks a little thicker.

The conversion cylinder is harder than the cap & ball cylinders but not as hard as Kirst's 4140 steel. It is easier to insert than the Kirst however. I'm partial to the Kirst Civil War Konverter. It looks like a cap & ball cylinder from a distance (but has no loading gate of course).

[sundance44s]

Thanks Riot ....gives me a better idea abou them ...The Taylors site just doesn`t show enough pictured to get a better look at them ...I was wondering about the lack of spring on the ejector rod ...something to think about ...they are a part of Remington history that I do enjoy ..So I will have to buy one ..
The converted Remington and converted Colt open top are close in price at Taylors so I wasn`t sure which I wanted first ...I think I`ll go with the 5 1/2 inch barrel Remington conversion model .

[Coyote Hunter]

oops double post

[Coyote Hunter]

I just sold a Taylors New Model Army Conversion with a 5 1/2" in .45. It shot really well and POA. It will not accept a uberti Reminton cylinder as they show in the adds. At first they (Uberti) said they came with them, but it never happened as far as I know. The cylinder is bigger O.D. to accept the .45 casings. I sold mine to get a Cimarron 7th Cav model.

The only complaint with a uberti to a Pietta, and I have both, is the uberti smacks my middle knuckle. So I started shooting 45 schofields in the conversion and it wasn't a problem.

[sundance44s]

Coyote Hunter ...you just answered my next question ....will the Uberti conversion shoot the 45 Schofield ..........I `ve switched to the Schofield for shooting in all my drop in conversion cylinders ..easyer on the revolver and the shooter if you shoot alot ...heck when I shoot targets I just want to hit them I don`t need to kill`em

[dastardly-D]

Thank you all for an assortment of good information,keep it going.I was thinking of the 8'' 45,but now a shorter barrel seems more reasonable....

[Captain U-96]

I found a Richard Mason type ejector assembly for the Remington 58.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,7515.html
It is spring loaded, and I'm not sure if it will work on Uberti. I ordered a .45LC conversion cylinder from Taylor's, and it fits better than the original cylinder that came with the piece. It even sounds healthier as you rotate the cylinder. I decided to go with the R & D conversion as it's suppose to be the first developed design back in the days of old. It seems something is up, because many 58's are back ordered, as well as cylinders. I may go with a Kirst on my 5 1/2 Ub 58 depending on what I learn in the mean time and what you folks recommend.

[sundance44s]

Nice find on the springloaded Remington 1858 ejector ...I like the way it is attached to the cylinder pin also ....Now you have me thinking ..I already own a Kirst conversion cylinder and a 5 1/2 Uberti Remington ......looks like a 125.00 and I could make one .

[Bezoar]

does R&D still use the canted cartridge method? ie, the bullets hit the forcing cone at an angle? That doesnt sound healthy for gun longevity.

Doesnt taylors sell the unfinished cylinder blanks still?

[Captain U-96]

My cylinder is straight away, no canted cartridges. But, a Six Shot .45LC in a cylinder that will fit the Remington doesn't leave much room to play with! I think as long as one stays in the recommended limits 34 G of BP or Cowboy Ammunition loaded for a maximum muzzle velocity of 750 to 850 fps., you're in there. By the way, the cylinder I got from Taylor's fits better, locks up more soundly than the original, and is machined on CNC equipment. Hope that helps.

[Captain U-96]

To be clear, my cylinder is fluted to match up with the .45 LC, and is not straight walled, which causes me to conclude that it would not be compatible with the .45 Schofield cartridge. The cartridges are in-line with the barrel. I too saw the sketch with canted chambers and wondered the same thing you did. Mike

[Riot Earp]

I believe that R&D angles their chambers 1 degree. You can't see it with the eye.

[scrat]

R&D does angle theirs 1 degree. it is mentioned on their website or was. The reason the size of the shells is too big to put all 6 on a 1858 without having a very small web paper thin. So angling the shell gives them moreweb thickness. The bullet hits the top of the rear of the barrel. The swear though this has little to no effect on accuracy and the gun. I have heard from a lot of people who have used the R&D and have confirmed this.

Now for my Walker i have a R&D however with the Walkers massive size webbing was not an issue. For my 1858 i went with the kirst. As the kirst is only a 5 shot cylinder however the bullets go straight into the cylinders and the webbing is still thick in between each cylinder. Kirst design opted to use only 5 shells to keep the webbing thick without having to angle their bullets. Same time the 6 chamber area makes for a great safety for the gun as there is not a bullet present. Then i like the option of the loading gate.

[pwillie]

Dam, I am confused. I have 1858 made by Ruger,and I just bought an R&D cylinder....so will this work? I haven't had a chance to match it up yet. And what about the loading gate,will I need to send it off to have this done?

[mykeal]

Ruger did not make an 1858 Remington New Army replica. The Ruger Old Army is a completely different gun. It does bear a resemblance to the 1858 Remington, but it is only superficial. If you bought a conversion cylinder for an 1858 Remington New Army it will not fit a Ruger Old Army.

[scrat]

mykeal is correct. now i have an 1858 peitta. so if you want to send me that brand new cylinder i will put it to good use

[pwillie]

I should have stated that the new conversion cylinder,is for a "Ruger old army,sorry....so how do I get the loading gate?

[Smokin_Gun]

I don't believe I have seen R&D making a gated version for an ROA.

[Oldfalguy]

While I have gone through a link which throughly discussed the issue of which conversion is preferred on the ROA I would like to here from other ROA guys on which they like best regarding the Krist with a loading gate and the R&D that doesn't. I think the Krist one made today does have the capacity of 6 like the R&D as they too angled the chambers- Might be wrong there but ...
Otherwise it would indeed be a pain to reload cartridges- shucks take only a little longer to just stick with cap & ball wouldn't ??
While the same would not be true of a 1858 Remington which is much easier to pop the cylinder ( either BP or R&D in 45LC) out to reload.

Also which round ball diameter best for ROA and anyone have a good link to a source for balls, wads and caps?
I just bought one yesterday and I need to find the correct nipple wrench-any ideas for finding a Ruger wrench ( I realize any would do but I like to find a Ruger one if possible

[mykeal]

.457 round ball over lubed felt wad and 30 gr fffg black powder is my best load.

You can use a 1/4 drive deep well socket as a nipple wrench, or call Ruger customer service: 603-865-2442.

There are literally dozens of online retailers selling black powder shooting supplies. This is just one of many:
Midsouth Shooter's Supply (http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/).

[Oldfalguy]

Managed to find some Hornady .457 balls, no percussion caps.
I would really like to avoid a BP load kicks that more than 45LC/44 special and one that would require the use of any filler at all.
I think but do not know what problems evolve if the ball is seated deeper because of a reduced BP load. On some level I realize that leaving any empty space between the wad and the ball wouldn't be a good idea.
Comments

[Captain U-96]

Though I have never experienced it; they say an empty void between the powder and ball would be like having a pipe bomb in your hands? I've always been understanding that the ball must be seated firmly against the wad/powder. I watched one guy compress his powder loads before adding wad and ball. Taylor's recommends .451 balls, and Uberti recommends .454. If you can shove the ball in with your thumb--the ball is too small. When you press the ball in, the cylinder should shave off a ring of lead. The .44 Colt R&D conversion for the 58 Rem states that you should use Hollow Base bullets to make up for the difference in bore; which I believe is .452 or .45 Caliber. With that in mind I went with the R&D .45 Long Colt Cowboy loads which can be had in Black Powder or Smokeless.
All the Kirst's I've seen have caused me some confusion, because some say drop--in, and others say you need to buy special jigs and drill bits to mount the rig; whereas with the R&D you simply drop out one cylinder and install another loaded one. Having Remington's, I've accepted the 5 shot thought, because there is no safety notch on the hammer of a Rem--just half cock and fully cocked and ready to fire. It's considered unsafe to fully load all 6 chambers of the Rem Conversion if you aren't ready to shoot--it's much safer to let the hammer sit on an empty chamber, or with the Cap & Ball cylinder the cylinder fully loaded, and hammer resting on a safety notch on the cylinder. By the way, .451 dia balls are less accurate in a Uberti Rem than the .454. Reduced recoil ammunition can be had from Buffalo Arms
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,5061.html

[scrat]

i just finished my 1858 with a Kirst Conversion on it. It was not that hard to do. I did the porting for the loading gate had to mess with the timing a bit and the front of the cylinder had to be shaved down a bit. All in all it took a good days work. However now its really really nice.

[sundance44s]

Good going Scrat ....lets see some pics!

[scrat]

i knew one of you guys was going to say that. Ok let me go take some pics
BRB

[scrat]

Ok i still have to work on the finish. I ordered a birchwood Casey kit. At the time al i had was my Birchwood casey touch up pen. This took about a million coats until it dried up. Then with it being old the finish really looks bad. You can see the strokes. So once i get the kit i am going to refinsh it. The grips right now have about 3 coats of black lacquer hand rubbed. I still have to get a lot more on it. Think it needs a few more chain beatings. the left side seems to look a little better. aged it up pretty well.

I call it THE GUNFIGHTER

first pic is in the middle of fitting the cylinder the bottom feet and front of the cylinder had to be shaved down then correctly aligned.
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q77/scratm3/Picture006.jpg
2nd i just started the porting when i thought wait pic time so i put it back together to take a pic
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q77/scratm3/Picture005-1.jpg

[scrat]

Semi final finished project
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q77/scratm3/Picture021-1.jpg
Upclose you can see the finish problems where the pen dried up. So i will be refinishing it in about a week
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q77/scratm3/Picture020.jpg

[sundance44s]

Nice work Scrat ...did you use a dremel tool and 1/2 sanding drum to cut the loading port ?
I`ve heard others say that was how they did it ....
are you going to add the ejecting rod ?
I bought a 3rd Dragoon today and am thinking about doing the gated conversion on it ..
Did the Kirst come with a template for the loading port ?
I like the aged look on the grip ..

[scrat]

Yes yes yes. The kirst comes with all instructions including two copies of the porting. You cut out the template then either tape it on or glue it on. i used some rubber cement. Then to get it started i used a small round rasp file. Just to get the groove. then turned to the 1/2 inch dremel. I used the sanding drum for a while but found you use up the sand paper too much. So i had a 1/2 drum grinding wheel ended up using that for most of it. Then i used the sanding drum later on. what i found though if you widen the corners just a little more it seems to work better. Later on i am going to get the ejecting rod. Right now though i have it so when you open the loading gate and turn the gun the shells fall right on out without anything else needed. CAnt wait to take it out. Ya the grips look good. im thinking of just leaving them like that. i was going to put some more lacquer on them but i think i will just spray a clear coat on them maybe a satin finish. i think it needs some more dings though.

[scrat]

When i got the cylinder you could not even put it in the gun it was too big. So thats why you have to shave off the front. Then it will fit but you could not put the arbor pin in all the way. upon closer inspection and with some feeler guages the back feet were too long so the top of the cylinder was too close to the frame and front of the cylinder was not. so i had to file down the back of the feet and kept checking with a feeler guage. Then the next test was to put in some fired shells. Doing this made the cylinder seem too long again so back to shaving them down a bit. Then the timing was off a hair. the hand seemed to be hitting the slots to hard almost too long of a hand so i had to deal with that. then i just mic out the bolt to each cylinder and did a light file on both sides. End result both cylinders work fine. Both lock up into battery and they both now are completely interchangeable with each other.

[Captain U-96]

So that's what they mean when they say "Some gunsmithing may be required"? Nice Job, now you're giving me some ideas.:D

[Smokin_Gun]

Great job Scrat...you are curvin' my thoughts to a Kirst Konverter.
Was thinkin' on a ported rear feeder only regular not gated ... like Halfway Creek Charlie done on that Gunslinger...

[Oldfalguy]

Scrat- fine work
Though I would prefer to have a gated loading port like the Krist but wonder at my ability to make it fit as you have without hacking the pistol up and really blowing it.
If R&D can make theirs drop in why does the Krist need this type of work or will it drop to some and not some others. Is yours a Pietta or Uberti?
Its just a shame we can't get a converted 1858 with a percussion cylinder-darn it!! I am going to get a R&D for my ROA but don't know which 58 to get yet.

[Captain U-96]

I recently bought a Uberti Stainless 5 1/2 58 Rem from Taylor's with two .45LC R&D Conversion Cylinders. Works great. I had a CA dated Uberti that I sent for a conv cylinder, and it worked perfect out of the box. I also have another Uberti 5 1/2 blued, and a Uberti 58 Rem Carbine, and figured my three cylinders would work fine in the others, but no cigar! As luck would have it one of the stainless cylinders works in the carbine, and the other works in the blued 5 1/2? I'm only mentioning it because they may need some trimming like the Kirst! Just a thought.

[pwillie]

I have an R&D that I bought from Midway,and it drops right into my ROA,the folks at Taylor said their can be no conversion for a gate on the ROA.

[Smokin_Gun]

I had to trim my Stainless R&D Cylinder(front bushing) for my ROA jus' a hair usin' 600 grit carbide paper, and polishin' after.
I'm still lookin' for a Uberti Kirst in .45 Colt for an 1858 Rem. Maybe an R&D...

[scrat]

mY GUN IS A PIETTA. From what i understand they make them long so that the fit will be correct when its done. if they made them so that they fit without having to trim them. Then they would have to trim alot so they fit all guns. However that would mean they would be loose in some and tight in others. So the hand fitting i dont mind. Of course you can have this work done. i believe its 60.00 to get it done. I got mine from Buffalo arms.com but riverjunction.com sell them as well and does the porting, fitting and bluing with prices on their web site. As soon as i get my bluing kit i will redo mine and post some new pics. Just got to finish up the grips a little more. I have an R&D for my Walker but i really wanted to get the loading gate. Until you start to use them you wont under stand why. Though its pretty cool to go to the forward line and shoot a full cylinder of cap and ball from my walker. Then its pretty cool to pull the wedge, take off the barrel, pull the cylinder load up the R&D cylinder then drop it in. Replace the barrel tap in the wedge. Done in about 1 minute. Then start shooting another 6 more rounds.

With my Remington i can shoot 6 rounds of cap and ball. Pull down the loading lever pull the arbor half cock the hammer drop out the cylinder. Slide in the kirst cylinder. Push in the arbor shaft raise the loading lever. Then load up my 45colt. start shooting. When done. open the loading gate tilt the gun turn the cylinder the shells fall out then put in more 45 colt and start again.

[Oldfalguy]

On the R&D's do you have to leave one chamber empty or is that only for certain models? For example I can see if there is no safe way /spot to leave the hammer down on a 1858 then the 5 shot Krist really is the way to go.
And if the Ruger R&D retains the cylinder notches to park the hammer then on that model one could go with whichever one you might prefer. I like the idea of the loading gate especially with a 1860. I have a Uberti that over 20 years old and which I might get a krist conversion from the guys who will also fit,port and blue it.

[ClemBert]

Scrat: When done. open the loading gate tilt the gun turn the cylinder the shells fall out then put in more 45 colt and start again.

The brass falls right out? No need to poke the empties with a stick to get them out?

[scrat]

i have some fired brass already as well as sized cases and both of them fall out when you open the loading gate and tilt the gun. Then you just rotate the cylinder and the other come out. eventually i am going to get the side eject i am sure once there is some fouling in there they may stick. but right now they fall right out.

[scrat]

the R&D can be loaded either 5 or 6 cylinders that part is just up to you. You have to remember though the R&D is designed slightly different in that the cartridges are at a slight angle. thus when you pull the trigger the bullet hits the top of the forcing cone of the barrel then straigtens out. Now R&D and others swear that there is no impact on the gun or in accuracy. This is why one of the reasons the kirst is a 5 shot as you can not drill out 6 holes in the size of the cylinder. its just to small. now for my walker thats a different story the cylinder is soo big that 6 holes drilled in fits. fine. I have also found that when i loaded for the walker you could almost put any size 45 bullet in front of it and its fine. Now i have about 20 rounds of 300 grain bullets that i loaded up that can not be used for the 1858 as the front tips of them stick past the cylinder. (a tad too long for it). however in that mighty Walker it never made any difference. i just ordered another bag of 45 shofields. so i am going to just use the shofields for the 1858 and colts for he walker.

[Oldfalguy]

I was definitely thinking of only firing scholfield's at most but I thought I read somewhere some or one of these conversion was able to handle 45 acp? I don't know if the acp is too hot for conversion or not and I could just be dreaming what I thought I read- yep, it happens a lot to me-hahaha
On the R&D angle business I think the tilt is like 1/2 of a degree from another thread- IF they could use the 45- a big if- without the rim it would be a piece of cake.
Oh I watched Pale Rider tonight and when he swapped the 1858 cylinders they weren't percussion! I do not know why I thought they would have been BP!! But it was still faster than loading through a gate like a SAA. Since it would be sorta crazy to have 3 R&D cylinders for reloads-duh The gated Krist would seem to be faster if one really thought speed was important to them- its not to me, so I know when I order /get one I am going to get 2 spare BP cylinders, thinking SS 1858 right now

[scrat]

if you check out river junction they do have for 45acp. it was so tempting when i first saw it. but thats going a little overboard in my opinion. here is the link. http://www.riverjunction.com/kirst/remington.html

[Oldfalguy]

Scrat-
Thanks for the link- that was where I must have seen it before-
Why do you feel that is going a little overboard?
I will have to check my reloading manual to see the differences between 45LC, Schofield and ACP as far as pressures go but the only reason I would have gone with the acp was for ammo commonality with other stuff I have but since it appears only lead bullets are allowed with these conversion cylinders-darnit darnit
I only have FMJ now and will be reloading those cases with TMJ for my TSMG so I am sorta tatoo'ed there.
I can't tell much about which one of the ejectors type would work best- it appears one has a spring in it though but there is some fitting on it I don't care to mess with either.

[scrat]

Pressure would not really be a problem with the 45 ACP. 45 Shofield and 45 colt are old cartridges originally designed for black powder. They can be used with smokeless powder. I would not recomend anything heavy. In fact nobody would. However the only smokeless powder i would ever recomend in these cases is Trailboss as its a very mild powder that fills the cases. Other smokeless powders in order to lower the pressure you would have to reduce the powder so much that it may cause misfires. trail boss does not have this problem. 45 ACP was not designed to be shot with black powder same time it was really made to shoot jacketed. You can shoot lead out of it. Results are not that great out of an autoloader. So with that you may be taking a chance to get a common bullet that you have to shoot lead from and may not get the best results from. I shoot 45 colt a lot. i also shoot 45 shofield. recently i have been loading a lot more 45 shofield its a very easy case to load and accuracy is pretty good.

[Oldfalguy]

Scrat- I fully agree-
I think with any conversions I will go schofield. What dies are you using- 45LC work OK? WOuld like to get some data from you on it.
I managed to find 1 single bottle of Triple 7 at the gunshow today and that is what I am going to wrok with for my ROA and 1860, need to find the right lead balls for the 1860, I have forgotten what I used before- any hints?
I met a guy today that is involved with the Krist cylinder folks, name is Jay Strite, company called Ravens Roost. He is a gunsmith and works soley on the old designs. He had 2 cased Patterson sets complete that were drop dead gorgeous- case coloring and bluing to beat the band, tuning etc. you name it. Does the fitting of cylinders and all the rest.

[scrat]

ROA .454 the 1860 well that can go either way depending on what model can go .452 or .454.

[Oldfalguy]

I am going with the 457 ball in the ROA and will start it off 20gr of 777 then move up from there. Probably start the 1860 with as you suggest 454 and the same charge (unless someone here has a good 777 charge they like) but bet I don't move it at all. 35 is 777 stated max load in ROA-WOW be almost 41gr BP equivalent.