[cuchulainn]

from the St. Louis Post Dispatch

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/E3B60598E2B47C2186256DBA001399B2?OpenDocument&Headline=Police+are+confused+and+fearful+over+new+gun+law+Police are confused and fearful over new gun law

By Bill Bryan
Post-Dispatch
10/08/2003

Suppose St. Louis police stop a car late at night in a high-crime neighborhood for a traffic violation. Suppose there's a 21-year-old in the vehicle, along with three 20-year-olds. And suppose officers find four guns on the floor.

"What do the police do?" asked Mike Stelzer, an associate city counselor assigned to the St. Louis Police Department who offered the scenario.

He knows what the cops would do today: Confiscate the weapons, arrest the occupants and figure it was a blow struck for public safety.

But Stelzer has no idea what to tell officers to do beginning on Saturday, when Missouri's new "concealed carry" law takes effect. Under its terms, a person 21 or over is allowed to carry a firearm in a vehicle, even without a concealed-carry permit.

But would the presence of one person over 21 make all four guns lawful? Or 10 guns?

"This is scary stuff," said Stelzer. "A police officer's job is hard enough without something like this. Can we seize those guns? Can we arrest anybody in the car? We don't have the answers yet."

Police Chief Joe Mokwa worries about those kinds of details, and the larger question of whether the new law allowing the carrying of concealed weapons - and the automobile provision in particular - will erode progress made into cutting violence on city streets.

St. Louis has been on pace this year to register the fewest homicides in more than 40 years.

Mokwa's force confiscates about 3,000 guns a year, more than half of them in car stops. The law will surely mean fewer gun seizures, the chief figures, and he hopes it doesn't translate into more crime.

"This is a big concern for us," Mokwa said.

He is not alone.

St. Louis County Police Chief Ron Battelle said, "A lot of this new law is ridiculous. We've got some real concerns about officer safety."

Battelle said it will be up to prosecutors and judges to guide police on parameters for seizing guns from cars.

"It might be scary for the first year or so," he said. "We hope things turn out pretty well like they did in other states with concealed carry that we've surveyed."

Illinois police face no uncertainties about the new law. Carrying a readily accessible firearm there remains a felony - punishable by up to three years in prison - even for a Missourian with a permit and forgetful mind.

"When you cross that bridge, you're subject to our laws," said Lt. Bob Dunn of the Illinois State Police. "Our gun laws didn't used to be much different than Missouri's, but they're going to be a whole lot different real soon."

And when Illinois law says gun, it also means stun guns - devices that deliver a powerful electric shock.

Dunn said the best way to avoid trouble in Illinois is to leave the gun in Missouri. Otherwise, he recommends keeping it unloaded in the vehicle's trunk and in a container designed to hold it. If a vehicle doesn't have a trunk and a weapon is within easy reach, it should be broken down into a nonfunctioning condition.

He said Illinois troopers have not received any special instructions to deal with the new law. "We'll be taking the same actions and precautions we've taken all along," he said.

But in Missouri, police commanders are reminding officers to be especially careful as they balance their own safety against the new experience of coming across law-abiding people with loaded weapons.

The Missouri State Highway Patrol advises anyone pulled over by police to turn on the dome light if it's at night, to keep hands on the steering wheel and to inform the approaching officer immediately if there is a gun present.

Common sense, troopers say, suggests not reaching into a glove box or purse or under a seat.

"We already approach a car expecting a gun anyway," said St. Charles County sheriff's Detective Gary Pollard.

The St. Louis Police Department is so anxious over the new law that it is taking out advertisements in newspapers to urge people with guns to behave responsibly.

The law is written in such a way that a person is not required to tell an officer that he or she is armed.

"We hope people are thoughtful in their dealings with the police," Mokwa said.

The new law allows Missouri residents over age 21 to have in vehicles weapons that are otherwise legal for them to possess. Police say that rules out past felons but leaves open an array of others. A permit is required to purchase a handgun in Missouri, a city police official said, but not necessarily to possess a pistol that was a gift or inheritance.

To carry a concealed weapon outside a vehicle, the new law allows people 23 and older to apply to the local sheriff. It imposes conditions such as a criminal background check, safety training and payment of a fee. Officials are expected to start taking applications early next week.

Police say they fear the new law may give armed citizens a false sense of security.

"A firearm can make someone think they have some mythical power that protects them from harm," Mokwa said.

He also said the gun law may lead burglars to target cars parked outside places where guns are not allowed, such as large sports events. "People shouldn't open their trunk, drop their weapon inside and assume that nobody saw them do it," he said.

Paul Hampel and Susan Weich of the Post-Dispatch contributed to this report.

Reporter Bill Bryan:
E-mail: bbryan@post-dispatch.com
Phone: 314-340-8950

[Dorian]

I wonder if anyone considered cross training with police departments in other states who deal with it on a daily basis.

I don't think I'd give it a second thought here in NC.

[Lictalon]

Amazing how other departments somehow manage to survive...:rolleyes:

[El Tejon]

[telephone ringing in downtown Indianapolis]

"Good morning, Indiana State Police, how can I help you?"

"Yes, my name is Col. Billy Bob Justice of the Missoura State Poleece. How do y'all handle them thar cases wherein the detainee is detained with an alleged fararm?"

Missouri State Po-po, it's the clue phone. It's for you.:D

[zahc]

23?

where'd they get that one from:mad:

[stevelyn]

What El T said.

Uhmmm.........Perhaps if they use good tactics, expect the unexpected, have a plan for dealing with hostilities, and not falsely believe a restrictive law is going to protect them, then they should do just fine. Alaska police officers deal with it every day.
Accept the risks or get the eff out of the profession.

[Mute]

Boo #@$%ing hoo!

[chrisinmo]

I read the article and was quite surprised to find this bit of honesty in it

It might be scary for the first year or so," he said. "We hope things turn out pretty well like they did in other states with concealed carry that we've surveyed

And this from someone who opposes the law! Wow miracles never cease. Here we have a police administrator who opposes ccw admitting that they have not found a place where their 'Carnage" poredictions have come to be!

[Partisan Ranger]

I'm really sorry that the exercise of my God-given rights makes some police officers nervous. :rolleyes:

[chrisinmo]

Rannger

I would suspect that it wont be an issue becasue the ones taht blindly stroll up to vehicles and assume there is not a gun involved will not haev much ongevity on the force. Sort of a naturall culling there. I suspect taht this is pretty much none of them. You will notice the comment was made by counsell not an officer!

[greyhound]

Good grief, so now they've gone from hollering "Blood in the streets!" to dreaming up wild scenarios with 4 guns on the floor of a car.

Something tells me if there's any doubt, the lot of 'em are going down to the station to sort it all out.....

[TarpleyG]

Can we seize those guns? Can we arrest anybody in the car?
Can we, can we, can we? They should be asking SHOULD WE? Are they justified?

GT

[Keith]

Well dang it! If'n we can't arrest 'em, what's the point of pulling over and rousting people for dirty license plates!


keith

[MuzzleBlast]

Suppose St. Louis police stop a car late at night in a high-crime neighborhood for a traffic violation. Suppose there's a 21-year-old in the vehicle, along with three 20-year-olds. And suppose officers find four guns on the floor. Suppose there were four BEERS on the floor. The three 20-year-olds get Minor in Possession, right?

The part about this that amazes me is that the authoritays in each state that gets a new CCW law seem to forget the 40 some-odd other states with the same law. They could just ask police in those states how they have handled these situations.

[outdoorman63]

more than likely the car with 4 guns in it will be a car of kids ready to do illegal things anyway....and a false sense of security...if they could guarantee me a 50 percent chance they could protect me then i might feel safe..but they cant do that..and in illinois yes it would be illegal but there are ways around the that stay out of illinois....unfortunately i work there

[Hutch]

"A lot of this new law is ridiculous. We've got some real concerns....

Funny thing, this seperation of powers. LawMAKERS get to decide what is legal. Law ENFORCERS get to do what the lawMAKERS decide. As far as having some real concerns, well, join the club. Gun-rights supporters 'been taking it in the neck for years.

Yeah, I got yer concern, RIGHT HERE!! We won, you lost, deal with it. Not only did we (finally!) win, we were right all along...

Editted to add: Now that I've got my own blood boiling, complaining about ridiculous gun control laws is condign punishment. <Snork> 'Splain to me about this bayonet lug issue again...

[RustyHammer]

Ummmmmm .....

If they didn't do anything wrong, you let them go?

or

Handle it like other states with this law do?

[Atticus]

"But Stelzer has no idea what to tell officers to do beginning on Saturday, when Missouri's new "concealed carry" law takes effect. Under its terms, a person 21 or over is allowed to carry a firearm in a vehicle, even without a concealed-carry permit."

"Suppose St. Louis police stop a car late at night in a high-crime neighborhood for a traffic violation. Suppose there's a 21-year-old in the vehicle, along with three 20-year-olds. And suppose officers find four guns on the floor. "
__________________________________________________________-

This law might require the application of common sense - so it is a huge issue for them. It would be prudent to check I.D's and verify who owns the guns, and it might even be a good idea to run the serial numbers of the guns if the situation called for it. I doubt that the one 21 year old would claim to own four guns that might be stolen. What a crock. And East St.Louis was such a paradise prior to this law being passed....I hope no guns get across the line and mess it up. :rolleyes:

[Monkeyleg]

"When you cross that bridge, you're subject to our laws,"

Do I detect a sense of glee in that comment?

[Missouri Mule]

No offense to anyone as I am a God fearing, law abiding, tax paying......hmmm.. tax payer.....2+2 ....Cop= public servant = my tax $'s pay his/her wages....therefore they work for me..... so serve me damnit!

If I wasn't an honest law abiding citizen ,a.k.a. a "CRIMINAL" I'd most likely have an "ILLEGAL" gun anyway.

It is my understanding that a cops primary job is to enforce the laws, a.k.a. a "Law Enforcement Officer", please correct me if this is not accurate.

I am personally responsible for my own and my families safety.

Now, since the criminal type has no regard for the law of cops why are you so afraid of me carrying concealed.

After all if I come across you on the side of the road underneath some "criminal" and you holler for help, you will get it a lot quicker if I am armed. Who knows what he / could do to you before my call for backup goes through and help arrives.

Use your head people....us honest lawabiding citizens are not the enemy!:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I happen to have a freind who is a rural deputy sheriff. He says the new CCW doesn't bother him in the least. It is mostly about traning and common sense.

[Moparmike]

"We already approach a car expecting a gun anyway," said St. Charles County sheriff's Detective Gary Pollard. Now why on earth would you do that Detective? Is everyone in your county a criminal? (Sorry, but they make it sound like they walk up to the car in a low-ready stance.)
He knows what the cops would do today: Confiscate the weapons, arrest the occupants and figure it was a blow struck for public safety.Gotta love those mythical 21 laws. Everyone under 21 is reckless and lawless, but everyone over 21 is fully capable of being an upstanding citizen and only the 21yr olds have the right to self-defense in a high-crime neighborhood.
:scrutiny: :fire: :banghead:

[Roadkill Coyote]

Notice that he also admits that carry restrictions at large public venues may be counterproductive.

He also said the gun law may lead burglars to target cars parked outside places where guns are not allowed, such as large sports events. "People shouldn't open their trunk, drop their weapon inside and assume that nobody saw them do it," he said.

The funny thing is he doesn't appear to see the irony...

[Roadkill Coyote]

a significant number of law enforcement officers are killed every year during traffic stops. What he said is the norm, not just in his county, but nation wide. That said, expectation and preparation don't have to translate into threatening motorists. Usually they merely consist of choosing the location of the contact, assessing the vehicle before and during approach, being aware of cover, maintaining a low key position of advantage, and watching the motorists hands. What he said means that he realizes that the bad guys are gonna be armed anyway...

[Standing Wolf]

Can we seize those guns? Can we arrest anybody in the car? We don't have the answers yet.

<sarcasm> I guess if all else fails, they could just steal the guns, couldn't they? </sarcasm>

The entire piece is just more exorbitantly loud leftist extremist anti-Second Amendment bigotry masquerading as journalism.

[Roadkill Coyote]

Webster County Sheriff Ron Worsham doesn't seem to be overwrought
"Worsham said he was not worried about the new law, which opponents say is not the answer, it only puts more people on the street with weapons. "I have no problem at all with it," said Worsham, adding that he has always supported the right-to-carry."
The Marshfield Mail (http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10284923&BRD=1815&PAG=461&dept_id=515271&rfi=6)

Although he doesn't sound like an unqualified supporter, Sheriff Mike Parson of Polk County seems pretty calm about it.
"Parson said he does not expect any major change in the crime rate in Polk County as a result of the new law. "In the other states with concealed carry laws, it hasn't really made much difference either way," he said. "Their crime rate hasn't gone up or down. I think there are some professional people who have a legitimate need to have (a gun), and I just hope people understand the responsibility that goes with it."

Bolivar Herald Free Press (http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10246502&BRD=1815&PAG=461&dept_id=516614&rfi=8)

Christian County Sheriff Joey Matlock and Ozark Police Chief Lyle Hodges do not appear to be bugged.
Ensuring applicants have the necessary training to carry a concealed weapon is the biggest hurdle facing local law enforcement. Neither Hodges nor Matlock are worried about civilians being armed or dangerous. "I don't think they'll be anymore guns on the street," Matlock said. "Criminals don't pay attention to the laws, that's why they're criminals." Hodges echoed Matlock's sentiment. "Folks who will be a problem with concealed weapons are not going to be the type of people who will get a permit," he said. "The will already be disregarding the law."

Bolivar Herald Free Press (http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10209525&BRD=1815&PAG=461&dept_id=516614&rfi=8)

[MeekandMild]

If I though he was worth the waste of time I'd email this hysteric nutball and ask him what has he done to protect himself from the tasteless, odorless and invisible radon gas seeping up from under his house. Then ask him how he protects himself from the same at the mall or his workplace. I figure the chance of him dying from radon exposure is something on the order of 100-1000 times that of getting shot.

There are some things in life you just can't control.

[Jeff White]

Suppose St. Louis police stop a car late at night in a high-crime neighborhood for a traffic violation. Suppose there's a 21-year-old in the vehicle, along with three 20-year-olds. And suppose officers find four guns on the floor.

Well gosh and geewhillikers...boys I don't know what we're gonna do. This entire article is just Bill Bryan trying to stir the pot. If the chief of police of any city hasn't already got guidance in place, perhaps he should just resign.

If the patrol officers in the city of St Louis can't come up with a way to handle this situation without endagering themselves, the public or the constiitution perhaps they should surf on over to Calibre Press's website and buy some copies of Tactics for Criminal Patrol. I know that the reporter is trying to scare the sheeple into thinking that the police will now have to let the evil gang bangers drive to the site of their next drive by shooting unmolested by this new law. Well if the guys on patrol in North St Louis aren't savvy enough to make a criminal arrest out of the situation the reporter is trying to scare everyone with, then they shouldn't be on the street there. If I were a St Louis city officer, I'd be pretty upset with the obvious lack of confidence in my ability that the chief just expressed to the people I serve in that article.

Come on Mr. Bryan, where are you coming from here? Do you really think that the situation that you are implying will occur is going to come down just that way. Ok we've got four young gangbanger types in a high crime area armed to the teeth. I suppose they all are squeaky clean, no felonies among them, no other contraband in the car? Come on Mr. Bryan, wake up!! Who do you think is doing the shooting? Read the articles in the archives of your own paper. The people that you are trying to scare the sheeple with were most likely already proscribed from having firearms even before the law was passed. Why because most likely they are already convicted felons and either on probabtion or parole or even bond.

Mokwa's force confiscates about 3,000 guns a year, more than half of them in car stops. The law will surely mean fewer gun seizures, the chief figures, and he hopes it doesn't translate into more crime.


Yep it will surely put a cramp in the style of the Mobile Reserve Unit. They have been charged with seizing guns and drugs without regard to niceties of the 4th and 5th amendment, the job being to get guns and drugs off the street and not worry about court cases. Perhaps Chief Mokwa would like to comment on how many convictions came from the 3000 guns seized?

As for the law in Illinois, it's the law here and I don't understand why anyone would expect the ISP spokesman to say anything different then what he said. It would be nice if LT. Dunn could say we'll honor a Missouri permit, but he can't say that and everyone knows that. I didn't detect any glee in the way he said leave your gun in Missouri or carry it in compliance with Illinois law.

The fact is that things will continue pretty much the way they always did. Despite the best efforts of the Post Dispatch to stampede the sheeple.

Jeff

[capt_happypants]

Mokwa is playing the race card.

Put in a racial slur that starts with "n" and ends with "r", and that's the message. They're trying to scare the Law-Abiding-White-Folk into revoking the new CCW law. You can't have the darkies carrying guns for self-protection, you know.

Yet another reason I won't move back to Misery.

[MuzzleBlast]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"We already approach a car expecting a gun anyway," said St. Charles County sheriff's Detective Gary Pollard.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now why on earth would you do that Detective? Is everyone in your county a criminal? This is just standard situational awareness type of thing. The same as you treat all guns as if they were loaded, you treat all traffic stops as if the vehicle's occupants were armed. Even UAPD's Kindergarten Cops are taught this.

[Moparmike]

Yeah, I was reading his tone more than the article. It sounded like they were approaching all cars in Condition Red instead of Condition Orange. It sorta got under my skin.

If you only knew the crap the UAPD patrolmen had to deal with. I would tell you, but I told him that I would keep it to myself as to not get him in trouble. Lets just say that they have a staggering array of additional rules and procedures, and buracuracy is alive and well there.

[rock jock]

Yes, I can see the confusion, as in "You mean those stupid civilians have a right to defend themselves too??? I just don't understand."

[Dionysusigma]

Police say they fear the new law may give armed citizens a false sense of security.

"A firearm can make someone think they have some mythical power that protects them from harm," Mokwa said.
Just like a car can make someone think they have some mythical power that allows them to travel much faster than on foot? :banghead: :fire: :cuss:

*sigh*:rolleyes:

Some people...