Is this legal? Changing the trademarks on a rifle


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Hostile Amish
March 28, 2009, 01:48 AM
I recently have been to a gun show that had a very interesting AR15. This AR15 had it's trademarks on the magazine well ground down and replaced with a picturesque Walther trademark. Also inscripted/engraved on the magazine well was "Walther WA15 kal. 223 Remington." ON the other side was engraved "Carl Walther Ulm/Do" and "Made in Germany."

I know for a face Walther does NOT produce an AR-15, but I was wondering if this process is illegal to do (changing or destroying firearm trademarks).

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nalioth
March 28, 2009, 02:27 AM
You can do anything you like with the markings, so long as you don't mess with the serial number.

WardenWolf
March 28, 2009, 02:54 AM
It's called fraud. If you label and market it as something it's not, it's in violation of counterfeit / fraud laws.

2RCO
March 28, 2009, 03:08 AM
I would wonder with the whole S&W partnership and the M&P AR's there might be some crazy shennanigans going on with Walther AR's but I have no idea.

If it says Walther and it's not it's called fraud!

nalioth
March 28, 2009, 04:23 AM
2RCO, is that like the Walther P99s that were totally produced by Smith & Wesson (and had no S&W markings)?

If it says "Walther" and license fees weren't paid, it sounds like a legal issue.

Who are they defrauding?

Guero4179
March 28, 2009, 08:52 AM
Not just fraud but totally tacky.

ultradoc
March 28, 2009, 09:20 AM
this doesn't sound right. hey, maybe put the ford symbol on an ar and say it was made durning ww2

Floppy_D
March 28, 2009, 09:44 AM
this doesn't sound right. hey, maybe put the ford symbol on an ar and say it was made durning ww2

Maybe, but where will you get parts for it in a few years? :evil:

marktx
March 28, 2009, 10:47 AM
If my memory serves me there were a limited number of Armalite AR-10s made with Walther barrels. Dunno about any .223 rifles

rdhood
March 28, 2009, 10:50 AM
You can do anything you like with the markings, so long as you don't mess with the serial number.

Not quite. You can do anything you like with the markings, so long as you don't mess with the required BATFE markings, of which Serial number, caliber, manufacturer and location are included.

Wes Janson
March 28, 2009, 12:04 PM
Going far out there...possible that it was exported to Germany for civilian use, "remanufactured", and then imported back?

Gaiudo
March 28, 2009, 12:43 PM
How is it fraud if no defrauding is taking place? I think it would be an issue if one tried to sell it as a Walther. Otherwise, its like placing a Mercedes symbol on a Prius... just tacky.

rcmodel
March 28, 2009, 03:18 PM
See post #10 again.

It's against federal law to deface or change the manufactures name on a firearm.

rc

2RCO
March 28, 2009, 03:27 PM
2RCO, is that like the Walther P99s that were totally produced by Smith & Wesson (and had no S&W markings)?


I should have phrased this better. What I was trying to say was maybe it was some new S&W gimmick and possibly "really a Walther" just like those p99s, but if it wasn't and was just made up by some clown the it's in violation of the law.

rcmodel
March 28, 2009, 03:31 PM
trademarks on the magazine well ground down and replaced with a picturesque Walther trademark.IF S&W wanted a Walther marked AR-15 lower, I'm pretty confident they wouldn't do it that way!

rc

dirtyjim
March 28, 2009, 08:57 PM
Not quite. You can do anything you like with the markings, so long as you don't mess with the required BATFE markings, of which Serial number, caliber, manufacturer and location are included
after i quick look through my federal fiearms regulations reference guide i could only find that you couldn't modify or remove the serial number. there was nothing in it about not being able to remove the manufacture & caliber markings.
if you can find the regulation in your books or on atf's website i would like to see it or at least know in what section its located in.
builders of custom rifles commonly surface grind the receivers to remove manufacture markings.

nalioth
March 28, 2009, 09:09 PM
Not quite. You can do anything you like with the markings, so long as you don't mess with the required BATFE markings, of which Serial number, caliber, manufacturer and location are included
after i quick look through my federal fiearms regulations reference guide i could only find that you couldn't modify or remove the serial number. there was nothing in it about not being able to remove the manufacture & caliber markings.
if you can find the regulation in your books or on atf's website i would like to see it or at least know in what section its located in.
builders of custom rifles commonly surface grind the receivers to remove manufacture markings. The markings only have to be present on them from the manufacturer.

After that, "don't mess with the serial number" applies.

ACBMWM3
March 28, 2009, 09:16 PM
maybe put the ford symbol on an ar and say it was made durning ww2

Sadly GM did make AR lowers...
http://www.darowden.com/markings/rm_generalmotors.htm

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