[bcs4]

I'm a handgun guy and reloader. I haven't gotten into rifle reloading because it seems a bit more complex, and frankly I didn't want to spend all my time resizing cases.

I'm trying to choose my first rifle caliber for reloading, and I'm officially lost. I will be using the rifle for targets in general from 100 - 300 yards. Sorry in advance for writing a book.

I've been reading as much as I possibly can about what might be the best caliber for me to choose, but there simply doesn't seem to be one that presents itself as inherently better. There's so much contradictory information about what makes a caliber more accurate.

It would seem that every caliber would have the possibility for the exact same bullet profile, so am I correct that in a no wind situation, at the exact same velocity, every rifle caliber (of the same bullet design) would have the same trajectory as all the others?

If that's true (I apologize if it's not) wouldn't velocity then be the only determining factor? Thus, the higher velocity, the flatter trajectory, the less flight time, the more accuracy (again without wind as a consideration)?

Then IF velocity is the determining factor (again, sorry if it's not), wouldn't recoil and resistance to wind be the 2 determining factors in choosing a caliber for target? And since a heavier projectile would resist wind more than a lighter projectile (at the same speed), wouldn't a heavier projectile ALWAYS be a better choice?

SO, would't it always be best to choose the largest caliber that one could comfortably shoot repetitively?

I'd sure appreciate any advice. Again, sorry for making you read so much, but I didn't see any other way to explain it so you could understand where I seem to be stuck.

[rcmodel]

Thus, the higher velocity, the flatter trajectory, the less flight time, the more accuracyYou are confusing Apples & Oranges.

Velocity & flat trajectory have nothing to do with accuracy potential.

every caliber would have the possibility for the exact same bullet profile
Two identical bullet of the same weight, except of different calibers will not have the same trajectory.

It has to do with the Ballistic Coefficient and Sectional Density of the bullet.

Some calibers cannot handle a bullet with the same sectional density as another caliber due to pressure limitations and rifling twist limitations.

Here is some good info for you to read. By the time you read it all, you will have a much better understanding of the whole thing.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/index.cfm

rc

[Silverado6x6]

In simpler terms I would suggest a .308 caliber, or the proven 30-06 for hunting. An extreme wide selection of bullets from varmint to big game. Currently though I prefer my .308.

Berger VLD, or Hornady A-Max handloaded offers excellent long range shooting, or try the Barnes MRX.

[33rowdy]

In three die handgun reloading, theirs nothing more but less. You don't have a die to bell the mouth.

Quote.
"It would seem that every caliber would have the possibility for the exact same bullet profile, so am I correct that in a no wind situation, at the exact same velocity, every rifle caliber (of the same bullet design) would have the same trajectory as all the others?"

That is confusing. Calibers and bullets all work different at their different velocities. But what I "think" you are trying to ask; If yo drop a bullet out of your hand and it takes an "x" amount of time to hit the ground. That the same is true as if a bullet is going 3500 fps. Well....at times you shoot up hill for a longer time to fall for a further distance of travel. Keep reading for that answer.

[bcs4]

Please understand I am not trying to be abrasive, just trying to understand.

"Velocity & flat trajectory have nothing to do with accuracy potential."

I would think if you eliminate windage, velocity and thus flatter trajectory would be the only determining factor (in the same profile projectile).

"Two identical bullet of the same weight, except of different calibers will not have the same trajectory."

How could two bullets of the same profile but of different calibers be the same weight? Wouldn't the larger caliber always be a proportionally higher weight?

"It has to do with the Ballistic Coefficient and Sectional Density of the bullet."

But based on the same bullet profile or design, Ballistic Coefficient seems to be based mostly on bullet weight, no?

"Some calibers cannot handle a bullet with the same sectional density as another caliber due to pressure limitations and rifling twist limitations."

But assuming the rifle was capable of the pressure and had the correct twist, at say 2,000 fps wouldn't 2 projectiles of different weight (of exactly the same profile, and ignoring windage) have exactly the same trajectory?

Again, please forgive my ignorance and feel free to completely ignore me if you feel you don't have time for a newb. I understand.

[bcs4]

"That is confusing. Calibers and bullets all work different at their different velocities. But what I "think" you are trying to ask; If yo drop a bullet out of your hand and it takes an "x" amount of time to hit the ground. That the same is true as if a bullet is going 3500 fps. Well....at times you shoot up hill for a longer time to fall for a further distance of travel. Keep reading for that answer."

Yes, that's a big part of what I'm asking. It seems like the bullet weight is the only real consideration at the same velocity because the heavier projectile fights the wind better. Of course this doesn't consider twist, but why would a modern manufacturer build a rifle that you couldn't find a projectile/velocity that matches their twist rate?

"In simpler terms I would suggest a .308 caliber, or the proven 30-06 for hunting. An extreme wide selection of bullets from varmint to big game. Currently though I prefer my .308."

A lot of what I'm reading says the 308 is the best caliber for general accuracy, yet I see other non-similar size calibers (like the 6mm) that are touting high accuracy. The only real advantage for a smaller caliber that I can think of is higher velocity. So, why would anyone choose a caliber of a lower velocity in relation to a very similar sized caliber of higher velocity unless they are concerned with recoil?

Thanks everyone for your input.

[rcmodel]

wouldn't 2 projectiles of different weight (of exactly the same profile, and ignoring windage) have exactly the same trajectory? No.
The heavier bullet would have a higher Ballistic Coefficient, and at the same velocity as the other bullet, would not slow down as fast.
So it would get to the target sooner, before it dropped as much.

It would shoot "flatter" at any range.

But again, I feel like you are confusing speed & trajectory with accuracy.

Accuracy is a factor of barrel quality, bullet quality, the load being tuned to the rifle, the stock bedding, the scope, and last but not least, the nut behind the trigger.

A good shooter with an accurate rifle & load can shoot anything well.

But he can't shoot it well just because it is faster & flatter if it isn't as accurate as a slower load.

rc

[bcs4]

"The heavier bullet would have a higher Ballistic Coefficient, and at the same velocity as the other bullet, would not slow down as fast.
So it would get to the target sooner, before it dropped as much."

Got it! That's what I was missing, thanks!

"But he can't shoot it well just because it is faster & flatter if it isn't as accurate as a slower load."

I don't expect you to help me any more, but why would someone want a slower load on anything?

[bullseye308]

First of all, what calibers do you currently have, or are interested in getting? That will take a lot of the guesswork out of it. What accuracy expectations do you have at what range? Will you be happy with 4MOA, or do you need less than 1MOA? Are you competing, hunting, or just trying to see what the best you personally can do? A little more info will get you a lot more help. :)

[bcs4]

For the most part, strictly handguns. I have a Colt HBAR that's accurate enough for me, and up to this point I've only shot it up to 100 yds, but I'm going to join a club that has a 500 yd range (though I doubt I'll be shooting that distance much, who knows).

The main reason I want to buy a rifle is as a platform to do more reloading. I find I have learned quite a bit reloading handguns, but I'm ready for a bit more now.

Before I started looking into this, I would never have believed how many different considerations there were between handgun and rifle. It seems like in handgun the main consideration is matching the load to the projectile. I'm sure I'll find that's true in rifles too, but it seems 4 fold more complex so far.

[Afy]

For 4 MoA might I reccomend a good 7.62x39 rifle.
For 1 MoA a decent bolt gun in .308, .260 or .300 WM.

For a consistent sub MoA a decent bolt gun in 6mm BR.
That is not to say you cant get sub MoA with any of the other calibers, or 4 MOA for that either.

[bcs4]

I think the 6mm has confused me more than any other caliber. I don't understand why such a light bullet is considered accurate (though it obviously is!).

For instance. Why would a 60 grain 6mm @ 3,000 FPS be more accurate than a 60 grain 22-250 at 3,600 fps assuming you have the right twist for the bullet?

[Zcarp2]

I am confused, let me attempt an answer.

What is your main goal? Learning to reload rifle - then your .223 will be fine. Some people get the super magnums and then realize they cannot shoot a whole box of 20 cartridges and then develop a terrible flinch. This affects accuracy.

I bought a light weight 30-06 rifle and it was uncomfortable to shoot. If you want to shoot a lot and you are learning, use the smaller calibers. Benchrest shooters use heavy guns and small bullets. Physics works. These guns have little recoil compared to my light weight 30-06.

The 45-70 is wonderfully accurate. It will also shoot 400 grain bullets very slowly. Once you understand the rainbow trajectory, you will be accurate. The same can be said of the 6mm and the trajectory will be much flatter.

I don't think there is a single answer to your first post. All bullets are affected by wind. Bullet design, profile, base design, initial velocity and weight will affect flight path. Transonic bullets are also a consideration (start faster than the speed of sound and then hit the target slower than the speed of sound).

Your last question, why is a 6mm more accurate than a .22 (5.56mm)? My answer is that the bullet is not. You should look at the launcher and the operator. The entire system should be looked at. All calibers will have their intended purposes. What is yours?

[rcmodel]

I don't expect you to help me any more, but why would someone want a slower load on anything?Several reasons.

NRA .30 cal Match rifle shooters prefer a lighter faster 150-155 grain bullet for short course rapid fire matches. (Less recoil)

The same guys prefer a heavier slower 168-172-178 grain bullet for long range 600 - 1,000 yards matches.
Because it will have a much higher BC, and lose less velocity at long range then the faster up close 150 grain load.

The trajectory is much higher, but the bullet with the higher BC will stay supersonic longer, and also be less affected by wind drift because it stays faster further.

Another very good reason is that almost without exception, a slightly less then Maximum load will just be more accurate then one that is maxed out on pressure.

It is better to have a 3/4 MOA load with less velocity and a higher trajectory, then a faster 1 1/2 MOA load with a flatter trajectory.

Another reason is, the most accurate rifles in the world are bench-rest competation rifles.
They universally use small capacity cases with moderate velocity.
A bigger & faster cartridge wouldn't have a prayer of winning a bench-rest match, because they simply cannot be as accurate as the smaller slower caliber.

Another reason is that higher velocity costs you big in several areas.
More powder burned per shot, markedly shorter barrel life, more recoil, and more noise.

rc

[bcs4]

"Your last question, why is a 6mm more accurate than a .22 (5.56mm)? My answer is that the bullet is not. You should look at the launcher and the operator. The entire system should be looked at. All calibers will have their intended purposes. What is yours?"

You seem to be saying that the 6mm and 22-250 are equally accurate. If so, why is the 6mm commonly referred to as one of the accurate calibers?

Maybe it would be easier to understand my question if you assumed I will be shooting from a sled, and I will be shooting a Tikka T3 Varmint with the correct twist for each caliber (though I know this is impossible to have a single twist that works best with all weights and velocities, just assume it is so).

[243winxb]

For accuracy at 100 to 300yards. 6ppc 65 to 68gr bullets. To 600yds 6br w/heavey bullets fast twist. Why, the custom bullets are made in this caliber. They even shoot well in 243win. Less recoil is always a factor.

[33rowdy]

QUOTE
"why is the 6mm commonly referred to as one of the accurate calibers?"

That is only one of many of the accurate calibers. That doesn't say "the one and only accurate caliber."

[bcs4]

Yes, I know. So what makes an accurate caliber?

[bullseye308]

Any caliber has ther potential to be accurate. Your definition of accurate will be the determining factor of what to you is accurate. Accuracy is a combination of barrel, bedding, crown, trigger, ammo, and shooter mostly. Caliber doesn't really determine accuracy just like color of the car doesn't determine top end.

[bullseye308]

What are your accuracy expectations? If you would answer the ?'s in post 9, more specific help could be provided to you.

[33rowdy]

By an author's opinion. I don't want to say that to be some smart alice but....it is. Some "cartridges" simply have a sweet spot for accuracy that is better than another.

My 222 Rem is a good proven accurate "cartridge" by simpley nature. It's not a fast or a high energy bullet but is accurate to 200 yards. If I want to take a gun to war, well....Look at that market. A 223, .308, 30-06, 50 BMG, ect. Those are accurate in their own class too.

[bcs4]

It's strange. Seems like every review about rifles I read refers to the accuracy or lack of accuracy in the round itself aside from the accuracy of the weapon being tested. I could cut and paste a bunch of stuff, but I'm almost certain you have read it too. Everyone here seems to be saying that the caliber has no affect on accuracy. That's really interesting.

[proplinker]

The only choice is 6PPC 62gr moving 3200-3400 no thing will shoot 100yds- 300yds better. as long as we are talking targets. and not game. Look at the bullet weight - VS - powder capacity. for example everybody knows the 308 shoots 168gr bullets very very well.....but is to much gun for the task at hand.

[bcs4]

"What are your accuracy expectations? If you would answer the ?'s in post 9, more specific help could be provided to you."

Sorry, I just don't see how. I am trying to find out if a specific caliber or round is more accurate than others. How would my own abilities decide which cartridges are inherently the most accurate? If I can't shoot a 20 inch group at 10 yards it doesn't mean a caliber is inaccurate, it means I'm not a good shot.

[33rowdy]

Let me fix my post.

Test weapons do not work the same as other test weapons. Test ammo does not work the same as other test ammo.

QUOTE
"Everyone here seems to be saying that the caliber has no affect on accuracy. That's really interesting."
Are we taliking calibers or cartridges?

[bcs4]

"The only choice is 6PPC 62gr moving 3200-3400 no thing will shoot 100yds- 300yds better"

That's kind of getting to my question. Why wouldn't the 223 WSSM shoot better at the same bullet weight with a smaller diameter bullet at a higher speed?

I appreciate all the input everyone!

[243winxb]

http://www.benchrest.com/caliber does have an affect. Go and see what the group shooter are doing. for 1000yds 6.5X284 http://www.6mmbr.com/1000ydpg01.html

[bcs4]

Thanks for the great links. Lots of info at both!

[Jim Watson]

What makes an "accurate caliber," you ask?

Research and development, research and development. And a little luck. The 6mm PPC was designed in parallel with the .22 PPC on the same .220 Russian case. The intent was for the two calibers to be shot in different divisions of benchrest competition.
But the 6mm PPC has far outstripped the .22 PPC, shooters use it where they could have a .22 of PPC (or other) design. Maybe Messrs. Pindell and Palmisano know why, I don't.

Naturally an accurate cartridge design has to be matched with an accurate rifle, accurate ammunition, and accurate shooting.

Perhaps if you gave your application as to minimum and maximum range to be shot, the money and weight budget for the rifle and supporting equipment, and the time you are willing to put into building quality ammunition; somebody will have specific recommendations and justifications.

10 metres? You would be well equipped with a really good air rifle.
50 yards? Get a really good .22 lr and save the handloading labor.
A hundred yard benchrest rifle is not a thousand yard benchrest rifle is not a National Match rifle is not a prairie dog rifle is not a woodchuck rifle.

There is no one universal answer.

[bcs4]

Like I said, it will be used for 100 to 300 yards for the most part up to 500 yards. The rifle is most likely a Tikka T3 Varmint because I want a magazine and I seem to like the feel of the rifle, though I am also considering CZ and the Steyrs that CDNN has for sale. My budget isn't big. Shooting has taken up what I spent on golf, so I'd say $1,000 a year after the purchase of the rifle and allowing $300ish for a scope (I know that's not much). More than that and I have to start selling handguns. As far as reloading time is concerned, an hour or two a week or so. Needless to say none of these values is as much as necessary to become as good as most here.

It seems as if I'm finding my answer though. I'm not sure there are actually better calibers, just more accepted and researched calibers. I think I'm leaning towards the 308, though I still like the thought of the 6mm, though it's not available in the Tikka.

[Zak Smith]

It would seem that every caliber would have the possibility for the exact same bullet profile, so am I correct that in a no wind situation, at the exact same velocity, every rifle caliber (of the same bullet design) would have the same trajectory as all the others?

If that's true (I apologize if it's not) wouldn't velocity then be the only determining factor? Thus, the higher velocity, the flatter trajectory, the less flight time, the more accuracy (again without wind as a consideration)?

Then IF velocity is the determining factor (again, sorry if it's not), wouldn't recoil and resistance to wind be the 2 determining factors in choosing a caliber for target? And since a heavier projectile would resist wind more than a lighter projectile (at the same speed), wouldn't a heavier projectile ALWAYS be a better choice?

SO, would't it always be best to choose the largest caliber that one could comfortably shoot repetitively?
Very good deductions for someone who isn't "into" rifles! Good work.

If you look from caliber to caliber, there are more or less bullet choices, and more or less good "match" and good "long-range" (ie high BC) bullets. For example, 6.5mm has many many great long-range bullets. 7mm has fewer. 6mm has fewer, but still some notable ones. .25" has almost none.

Now, you are correct that for the same bullet design/profile, a larger caliber bullet will have a higher BC value. However, its mass will also be larger and it will require more powder to achieve the same velocity as the smaller caliber, and it will have more recoil. These are costs.

Thus, you tend to see sweet spots for long-range target cartridges, that trade off some ballistic performance for component and barrel cost and recoil.

[bcs4]

Thank you very much sir. That's exactly what I was looking for. I heard a rumor that all people were named Smith once, but as they did foul deeds, they were forced to take new names. Did your father tell you that once too?

[Zak Smith]

That's a new one to me! Sounds like an incentive for good behavior, though!

Here's an article you might find interesting re: LR cartridges

http://demigodllc.com/photo/CGMG-2006.11/icon/D100_3368_img.jpg
article | Practical Long-Range Rifle Shooting, Part I - Rifle & Equipment http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/)

[bcs4]

The Smith "fable" is surprisingly widespread. I'd guess 10% to 15% of all Smith kids have heard it (from my experience, and they're always surprised to find out that other Smith kids heard the same thing) and not just in the Midwest, where I live. I have yet to meet another surname that uses it.

Thanks for the link. It's the best explanation I've found and I saved it for future reference. Don't mean to be a bother, but are you aware of any other manufacturers that make a magazine bolt action other than Tikka, Steyr, FN, or CZ in that $700 or $800 price range?

[bcs4]

Holy mackeral! I just saw that you wrote it. Thanks again! Do you have any books out?

[Zak Smith]

Just articles (print and web) so far; working on a small book.

As for magazine-fed, if you are referring to a detachable box magazine, you can use the Badger or Surgeon "bottom metal" on a Remington (and perhaps other) actions, then use the Accuracy International AICS magazines.

[bcs4]

I pulled the trigger on a 308! Just put a hold on the Tikka and got $100 off. I'm almost as excited as I was when I bought my first 1911.

Thanks everyone for all the info. Now for the scope..

[ranger335v]

Your first premise comes close to being correct, sorta, in a way. Given that others have correctly explained that accuracy and a flat trajectory are NOT the same, I'll address the bullet part.

As RC said, bullets have two qualifications we can use to predict performance with moderate accuracy.

The first is BC, Ballistic Coefficient. It a form factor telling us (approximately) how streamlined the bullet is. The BC is not an absolute value, it changes significately as velocity changes over the full path of the bullet.

Bullets with a higher BC can cut through the air with the least resistance so they lose less velocity in a given period of time. Bullet travel is a function of the time of flight and velocity. Bullet drop is a simple function of gravity. The less time it takes for a bullet to reach a given range the less it will drop over that distance, and vice versa.

Any two bullets with the same BC will drop the same, regardless of the caliber or specific weight. That means a 55 gr. .224 bullet and a 150 gr. 308 bullet fired at 3000 fps will have the same drop at any range IF they have the same BC. Things in the real world rarely match the theory exactly but it's close enough for common work! Heavier bullets may have higher BCs but that's by no means consistant, few bullets of the same cailber and weight actually have the same BC.

The other bullet factor, SD, Sectional Density, is a pure math relationship between bullet diameter and weight. Seventy five years ago it was used in predicting the potential for penetration but, at best, it was a doubtful premise. Take two 200 gr. .308 bullets, one with a conventional round nose and the other with a spire point/boat tail partition jacket. Both have the same SD, but they sure won't have the same trajectory! NOR can they be expected to penatrate equally, the partition jacket will drill deeper everytime! But, a full metal jacket 180 gr. .308 bullet at the same velocity will out penatrate either, in spite of the 180's lower SD. The point is, bullet construction is far more important for penetration than SD or shape .

Of the two factors, I ignore SD myself but I do not ignore BC.

[Jim Watson]

I pulled the trigger on a 308! Just put a hold on the Tikka and got $100 off. I'm almost as excited as I was when I bought my first 1911.

Thanks everyone for all the info. Now for the scope.

A good choice in the realm of production model rifles and a well developed caliber. It will take a while before theoretical considerations get in the way of results with it.

You could either get some Black Hills Match ammunition to "break it in" and get familiarized. That would leave you with fireformed brass for reloading with good quality bullets. Or you could buy a supply of brass of the same lot number and start from scratch.

The Bushnell 3200 series of scopes has a good reputation at the entry level.

[bcs4]

Thanks again everyone.

Was reading recommended factory loads in something Zak wrote, can't find anything locally. Headed out this weekend though, so hopefully I'll find something.

I watching assorted auctions for scopes. I think I'm going to try to stick to Leupold or Nikon because of their warranties and maybe buy a used one in the $300 to $500 range.

Found out there is a 1,000 yard shoot in Pella Iowa (close to me) in a couple weeks. Can anyone attend those, or do they frown on visitors?

[Jim Watson]

If you find match ammo in stock, your stores are a lot higher class than around here. Anything I want out of the ordinary, it is mailorder or load it myself.

Most shoots are glad to have newcomers. Do your homework, have a dead nuts 100 or longer zero and figure your "comeups" for longer ranges.

Oh, by the way, if you want to shoot beyond about 600 yards, you will need an inclined scope base to add elevation. Very few scopes have enough internal elevation adjustments to make the 35 MOA or so from 100 to 1000 yards.

[snakeman]

i would go with a 260

[Scott23]

Ok, here's the skinny. Almost any of the faster 22's will do what you want for the range your talking about (100-300 yrds). Generally if you plan to handload you can get under 1 MOA at 100 yrds with a factory rifle. Yes, the weight and profile of the bullet has more effect on accuracy the further the range. I'm talking wind deflection, not bullet drop. If you don't want alot of case prep go with a 22-250 for 100-400 yrds with a 55-60 gr bullet. Also a 6mmBR useing 75 gr to 80 will also work from 100- 600 yrds as long as you do your part behind the bench. A 6PPC is reguarded as one of the most accurate in the 200yrd bench rest game, but that is a bit more involved as far as reloading and building a custom rig $$$. If high end accuracy is what your looking for get ready to open up your wallet. My recomendation would be to go with the 6BR, lots of bullet choices and tons of load data. The 6BR is a very accurate chambering and easy to load for. Go for a no turn neck, just load and shoot. Less case prep= more time on the range.

Scott

[bcs4]

"If you find match ammo in stock, your stores are a lot higher class than around here. Anything I want out of the ordinary, it is mailorder or load it myself."

I found Federal Gold Medal Match at $42! I didn't think the gold actually meant gold. At that price, I'll be picking up the spent brass AND the bullets.

"Most shoots are glad to have newcomers. Do your homework, have a dead nuts 100 or longer zero and figure your "comeups" for longer ranges."

I didn't mean to actually shoot. Just watch. For some reason making a fool of myself always makes me nervous.

"Oh, by the way, if you want to shoot beyond about 600 yards, you will need an inclined scope base to add elevation. Very few scopes have enough internal elevation adjustments to make the 35 MOA or so from 100 to 1000 yards."

That's very interesting and something I never would have known, thanks. Is there any way I can tell (by some feature name) which scopes might not need an inclined base? I'm guessing an inclined base would need to be removed at shorter distances then?

Thanks again!

[Jim Watson]

Well, watch and learn, then.

A 175 grain .308 boattail will take about 35 MOA elevation to go from 100 to 1000 yards.
Scope elevation ranges run from maybe 40 to a claimed 100 MOA. If you are centered at 100, you have half that to work with. A typical hunting scope with 40-50 MOA of adjustment, 20-25 available, is not going to do it. Some target and tackytickle scopes have more range of adjustment, but even so, you will use a lot of it and be in the high end of the elevation range, where it can affect scope clarity and the actual available windage. So we use bases cut to give us another 20-30 MOA. That lets us shoot at longer ranges near the middle of our scopes adjustment and optics. You can usually adjust back down to 100 without having to change bases.

The Burris Signature rings with eccentric insert kit is another approach to gaining more elevation than your scope will handle.

[Bart B.]

rcmodel says: Another reason is, the most accurate rifles in the world are bench-rest competation rifles. They universally use small capacity cases with moderate velocity. A bigger & faster cartridge wouldn't have a prayer of winning a bench-rest match, because they simply cannot be as accurate as the smaller slower caliber.
Well, not quite. The smallest groups at 300 yards or greater I know of having more than 10 shots have all been shot with NRA high power match rifles shooting full-length sized .308 Win. cases. These used Win. 70 box magazine actions, not those heavy, stiff benchrest ones. No benchrest rifle's ever put several consecutive 10 shot groups into 3/4ths to 1-1/2 inches at 600 yards or 40 consecutive shots in under 2 inches at 600 yards.

Sierra Bullets' best 30 caliber match bullets have shot well down into the ones (under .2 MOA and even close to .1 MOA) in their test range. Shot from rail guns just like the benchresters use, their .308 Win. test barrels shoot very tiny groups. Not all the time, but like the benchrest guns, enough to know that larger cartridges can shoot tiny groups, too. Sierra uses full-length sized cases, too.

The main reason such heavy recoiling rifles don't shoot accurate in traditional bench rest matches is how they have to be shot. 13-pound traditional bench rest rifles only have a couple foot pounds of recoil with their tiny cartridges. Shot free recoil and virtually untouched by people except for pinching off their 2-oz. triggers, they are very repeatable in being accurate. A 13-pound NRA match rifle shooting the .308 Win. has many times more recoil and would fly off the rests and probably end up on the ground if shot in free recoil. People cannot hold one of these repeatable enough atop a bench to shoot their best. Clamp a good one in a machine rest and they'll equal any traditional bench rest rifle.

[moooose102]

i am no expert, but i will offer you my opinion. rifle accuracy equates to a lot of things going right at almost the exact same time. there are many variables. one of the more "adjustable" things you can change is velocity. it certainly is not the only factor. then there is bullet selection. which is a whole different can of worms. the biggest thing that affects rifle accuracy, that is not so easy to change is barrel vibrations. that is why we work up loads trying different velocities/ bullet weight/ s.d./ b.c. / etc. to get the most out of a particular rifle, you need to match harmonics (barrel vibration), velocity, bullet, etc. pistols are not so much affected by barrel vibrations as the barrel is much shorter, and in most cases, stouter. do some reading on accuracy and you will find out there is more information out there than you may care to read. in any case, faster is not always more accurate. it can be a lot of work to find the most accurate load for your gun. me, as long as they stay in less than an inch (30 caliber) i am happy. so far, i have not been able to get my 45/70 that small yet, but i am still working.