[vrwc]

Ok I have gotten rid of my mini-30's, I want to embark on a new project:
I would like every member of my fam (wife,daughter,daughter) to have an evil black rifle. I want to utilize the 80% lower method, beacuse I can, and it will be fun to do and a good family project. So my questions are:
1. Ak vs Ar (for terms of assembely and building only, don't want the ford vs chevy thing they both are good rifles for the inteded purpose)
2. If AR is model 1 as good as J&T for upper kits
3. What kind of parts kit if I was to go with the ak?
4. Can I leagly make a firearm for a dependent or do the girls/wife have to do their own

[ddc]

vrwc,

I don't know enough about AKs to answer the AK vs. AR question but I will anyway: AR! :D
Ok, now disregard that and get some valid opinions!

And furthermore:

Wow! That's about the neatest idea I've heard in some time! What a great idea for a family project!

[cordex]

For building your own from 80%, AR is the way to go. No question about it.
If AR is model 1 as good as J&T for upper kits
I've had two bad experiences with Model 1.
First was an upper whose barrel had a tight chamber. Fine. Sold to a guy at a gun show for cheap after advising him that while it was very accurate (it was!), it wasn't reliable. Served his purposes.
Second was a lower parts kit I got from them. The parts weren't just "bottom feeder" ... they weren't even all functional. They included half of a hammer pin - something that is sort of necessary to building up the rifle. Tried to get them to replace it and they said they'd send one out immediately. Never arrived. I gave up and put in an order from Fulton Armory who was far more expensive, but I got what I asked for including a spare thrown in for free.

Won't do business with Model 1 any more myself.

[TallPine]

I believe you could get four AKs for the price of one AR

http://www.eaacorp.com/firearms/saiga/rifles/saigasynthetict.shtml

[10-Ring]

I'd go AR ;)

[Destructo6]

For DIYers, the AR is tough to beat. The FAL probably comes close, but that's probably not a gun everyone in the family is comfortable shooting.

As another has pointed out, you could probably buy 2 assembled AKs, of good quality, for the cost of one AR.

[Dave R]

I have not done this, but from what I have read on the Internet (so it must be true!) it is much harder to build an AK than an AR. AK requires barrel pressed in properly to headspace, etc. AR is just "attach upper to lower". Right?

[SteelyDan]

Well, you do pose an interesting variation with the "build it" criterion. As I'm sure you're aware, ARs are frequently assembled by the owner, but AKs rarely are.

You could pick up a copy of Shotgun News at your local newsstand, and check out a wide variety of parts and parts kits--mostly for the ARs, but there are always a few for AKs, too, though I'm not sure I'd go down that road.

I can't imagine any prohibition on assemblying a rifle for your family members. Just make them your guns, and they can use them. Maybe I'm missing something here, but this seems like a non-issue.

Seems to me that if your emphasis is on the assembly/family project side of things, go with the ARs. Heck, with the AKs it will only take 10 minutes. If your emphasis is on the end product, then we enter into the world of AR vs. AK. And on that point, I own both and I'm relatively indifferent.

[Kaylee]

moving to rifle country...

-K

[c_yeager]

For the most part building an AR is more of an "assembly" job than a building job. With AK's there is a certain amount of machining knowledge necessary and more tools. You will have to do some cutting and rivetting on an AK, none on an AR.

[Master Blaster]

See if you can find someone to loan or rent you an AR and an AK, so you and family members can actually shoot them, that may answer your question.

A good parts AR will cost you at least $600 for parts and gunsmithing needed, then you will have to assemble it, and have a gunsmith headpace the barrel to the bolt and carrier.

You can buy two good AKs for that price ready to go. (SAR-1).

AR's are capable of match grade accuracy, AKs are a CQB battle field rifle.
An AK is shorter and lighter in standard configuration than an AR .

AK ammo is cheaper.

At least go to a gun store and hold both to judge weight and fit for you and family members.

[vrwc]

Thanks for all the input, I was leaning towards going AR anyway, All good advice. I will post some pictures when we get started and finished, now i need to decide on car vs normal (i hate the awb) if the gestapo pols somehow let the awb expire w/o making a new one, in theroy I should be able to make any combo I want as long as the barrell is 16" right and the select fire only has 2 options :(
I have a pre ban car with the collapasable stock and it sure is handy (thats what i keep in my truck) I would like all of my families new evil black rifles to be with them, and the collapsable stock helps out in the auto.

Side topic would this look bad if I was stopped :) (its all leagl in my area just curious what some of the less enlightened leo's would think )
Car-15 mag in unchambered
4 30 rd mags for car-15
sig p239 chamberd
rem 870 unchambered
500 rds 5.56
100 rds 9mm
16 00 buck
8 soft impact (rubber pellets 12 gauge)
IIIa vest
III rifle plates with its own holder
IIIa kevlar helmet


fyi i just like being prepared i am not one of those tin foil hat black un helo guys :)

[cslinger]

Prepared is a bit of an understatement, dontcha' think? :D

Where were you when the LA Bank Robbery happened. You could have cleaned that mess up and everybody would have been home for dinner.

Do you have lot's of enemies?

Just kidding.

Anyway like everybody said AR is accurate and easy to assemble. AKs are rugged and cheap to purchase. Apples and Oranges really. Let the family shoot both and see which they like the best. You want them to take an interest so they have to have fun and like what they are shooting.

The AR is likely to provide less perceived recoil and more confidence building accuracy faster. The AK is harder to shoot accurately and has much inferior sights so this could be a real negative if your family members get frustrated easily. The AR is easier to teach somebody to hit with plain and simple.

I like them both. We have 2 ARs and VEPR AK varient. I wouldn't hesitate to get another AK varient such as a SAR either as they are great guns for what they are.

So it comes down to blasting versus target shooting. Both can be plenty accurate out to 100 or so yards but the AR is much much easier to shoot accurate, while the AK is a much more fun blaster for short range clay shooting fun.

Either would serve you well should any of your enemies show up to rub you out. :D

[vrwc]

no enemies that i know of :)
the wife likes both my dad has ak's that she has shot before and she likes my car-15.
another side question anyone know why the atf chose 16" as a barrel length? when I had access to the 14.5" with collapasable stock those wer ideal and the m203 on the bottom added a nice touch :)

[cslinger]

Why because 15.5 inchs is the deadly sweet spot for any rifle. You see once you drop below 16 inches, specifically 15.5987532 inches any bullet becomes a hyper velocity molton mass of baby killing death infused lead. That and the fact that pocket carry of AR-15s and AK-47s was reaching epidemic proportions.

As for the bayonet mounts now there is a real killer. But I digress.

You know I really don't know why 16 inches was chosen. Why not 20 or 15. Just another arbitary law made up by people who don't have a clue.

[vrwc]

oh yeah i cant tell you how many times when i was a leo i had to defend against a bayonett attack :)

Do other people carry a rifle and pistol and shotgun with them in their car or am I overgunned?

[TODD3465]

I'd go woth the AR because the proper tools do do the assembly are much easier to get and use.
Plus, there are way more "custom" parts to enhance accuracy and ergonomics.:)

[Kaylee]

um.... wow.

personally, I'd do some risk assessment there, along the lines of "which is more likely, will I be assaulted (with time to don body armor and all that) to a degree necessary to need all of this gear, or that some punk kid will break into my rig and make off with several thousand dollars of weapons and equipment." Personally, I think there ain't much a $1500 pre-ban CAR in the truck can do that a $75 Mosin-Nagant carbine (or if you gotta have semi, a $150 SKS) can't -- and with a heck of lot less exposure to boot.

That said, presuming you're still in a Red State... it's a free country. :)

To the original question.. concur with all the "ARs are better for building" suggestions, and I'd think that a mix of 20" rifles and 16" carbines would be appropriate for a family, depending on the user's stature, marksmanship ability, and comfort level.


-K

[vrwc]

well all the stuff is there for total worst case situation, my 'safehouse' if you will is 300 miles away so I want enought to fight my way out around town to gather my fam. and hit the road ( i know this will never happen but if it does I should be ok) For your everyday punk robbers there is the sig p226 for me and a taurus pt-92 for the wife that we keep with us, of course i never carry them on my person conceled that would be gasp illegal


back to building who makes the most cost effective 16" ar kit that wont blow up in my face?

[TODD3465]

If your worried about the blow-up part get the bolt and barrel from Bushmaster.

[vrwc]

well i am more worried about headspacing, so i want to stick with a pre assembeled upper that has been testfired

[MAKOwner]

You mention building it off a 80% receiver, what do the AR15 80% units consist of, and what is required to finish them? Doesn't it involve a lot of milling or something?

Because with a "bent blank" AK receiver and one of the stamped parts kits with the barrel already in the trunion there are no special tools (no pressing needed) or tricks to put it together. A dremel and a drill and you can do it... Only hiccup is attaching the trunion to the reciever, rivetting like original looks tricky (and does require removing the barrel from the trunion and re-pressing it after the riveting), but there is the "screw build" method that looks easy and promising. I've been wanting to do this for awhile. THere is a post in the build it yourself forum at ak-47.net with step by step directions with photos about one guys project. It is titled something about "Ace bent blank" buildup or something... He rivets the trunion, do a forum search there for "screw build" and similar and you'll get the info on doing them that way...

I'm not sure where the best deals are on 7.62 AK kits, but excellent condition Bulgarian 5.45 AK74 kits are available for under $200 from a couple different places (FAC www.gunsnstuff.net is one).

Maybe the 80% AR receivers are still easy to finish, I don't know. God knows it looks like there is virtually no work involved in assembling a kit on a finished lower, but if you're trying to avoid paper on the receiver I think it gets pretty difficult to finish AR 80%-ers doesn't it???

[makarov]

You are really talking about two different price points. Even if you build your own the AR will end costing about what 2 AKM variants will. If you REALLY want to build your own try building an AR for yourself. By the time you are done, you will know whether or not you want to build more. Buy a SAR- 1 after building the kit. Why only have one type of gun? For me, the fun is in shooting different kinds of guns. I don't hunt, I just like shooting guns. Mostly .22, but I have 7.62x39, .223, .357 and 9mm , oh forgot 6x55 Swedish and 9mm Makarov.

If you want opinions on the various AR parts vendors the AR-15 forum has lots of these discussions. I researched it once intending to build an AR, but by the time I priced out what I would build it was about the same as buying a good deal on a Bushmaster. I still don't own an AR. I have 3 SKS's though. One is the Sportster version that takes AK mags. It is more of a box queen than a shooter. - moral of the story. Don't forget about the SKS. The Yugos are a great deal right now.

- Makarov

[Onslaught]

Let me just second (or third) that the AK is not as easy to build as an AR.

Nope, I have never built one myself, but my co-worker/fellow enthusiast really enjoys building rifles. He has built 2 FAL's and 1 AK, along with completely disassembling and restoring several others. He had to get a lot of the AK work "done", while he did the FALs himself. His AK is also not as accurate as two "off the shelf" AK's that were at his property shooting last weekend.

He says that's one project he won't undertake again.

Of course, if you've got what it takes to finish an 80% lower, you probably have what it takes to build an AK too :)

Why only have one type of gun? For me, the fun is in shooting different kinds of guns.
I definitely agree there. I bought a Walther P99 for myself, and one for my wife. While I absolutely LOVE the P99, having 2 is like having 1 at twice the price. I've considered selling mine just so I can buy a different pistol. If I ever want to shoot a P99, I'll just shoot hers :p

[444]

"................and have a gunsmith headpace the barrel to the bolt and carrier."
You won't need to have a gunsmith do any of it if we are talking about an AR15.
"For the most part building an AR is more of an "assembly" job than a building job."
For the most part, you are right. But, if you are building one using an 80% reciever then the job is much more involved than just assembling parts although it certainly isn't something that is difficult if you have the jig.

I have no idea what is involved in building an AK. Nor do I have any idea if you can build an AK from an 80% reciever.

Model 1 vs. JT
I wouldn't go with either one. I would go with a chrome lined barrel and chamber. It was proven many years ago that this is the way to go. The military doesn't do this as the result of a flip of the coin. Every AR I own has a chrome lined barrel and chamber; I have read several accounts on this board over the years about various AR ammo issues and problems. I have none. Every one of my 13 ARs functions perfectly with any ammo I have fed it. It might cost you a little more, but why not get the good stuff. I would and do buy Bushmaster uppers and barrels. Every thread I read involves someone saying X is cheaper than Y. I don't use this as a criteria when I buy guns. I get the good stuff or stay home. My stuff isn't the most expensive made, but it is good quality stuff that works regardless of cost. There are times when I use the cheapest stuff available. That is because I found that it works just as well as something that costs more. Cost wasn't the criteria, performance was.

[gun-fucious]

theres assembling an AR from store bought upper & lower,
and then theres finishing a Tannery shop 80 % lower:
http://www.tanneryshop.com/
http://www.tanneryshop.com/MESSAGEBOARD.html

[makarov]

If you want an accurate plinker get a chromed lined barrel. You'll notice that the match barrels are not chromed. Chrome is great at protecting the barrel, but it is impossible to lay down a layer of chrome as smooth and even as a target barrel.

[444]

And what did your accuracy tests show the difference to be ?

[atek3]

Re: 16" not 14 not 17.

Origionally like shotguns the legal limit was 18", then a lot of M1 Carbines hit the surplus market but would have been NFA SBR's, so the ATF changed it to 16" to allow the legal sale of M1-Carbines.

atek3

[N3rday]

I want to utilize the 80% lower method

Could someone enlighten me...what is this method?

[Gewehr98]

There's really only one solution to the age-old question.


Get one of each. :D

http://mauser98.com/hbarsmall.jpg
http://mauser98.com/aksmall.jpg

[tiberius]

Could someone enlighten me...what is this method? I can't quote the law verbatum, but basically it is legal for you to build your own gun. You have to do the work yourself and it does NOT require a serial number....thus a truely paperless gun. It may vary per firearm type but at least with an AR (since the lower receiver is THE gun) the BATF has ruled that the end user must complete at least 20% of the work himself for it to qualify as a home built receiver (gun). To complete an 80% receiver requires a drill press and a ~$250 fixture I believe.

I'm sure someone will come along and correct some technicality I omitted, but that's the basic scoop. Sounds like a neat project vrwc has going.

[Greg Bell]

Get an AK! They are dirt cheap and they probably won't be any cheaper, ever. Post ban AR-15s, OTOH, are probably going to be bastard stepchildren (easily remedied with a machinists help (loping of those hideous integral muzzle brakes, fake collapsing stocks, etc) come late September. Everybody will be rushing to buy collapsing stocks, flash hinders, C--Mags, etc.

Plus, AKs are accurate enough for practice (cans will hate you), CHEAP to shoot, and fun to taunt liberals with (OK, the AR looks plenty evil enough for that).

Yee ha!:D

[outdoorman63]

i have built 2 ar's recently both cost under 535 each to build..i used model 1 sales upper's and kits.used rra and olympic lowers...i have had no reliability problems from either....and they come headspaced and testfired...assembly time was aprox 1 hr for each....if i can do it anyone can..as for ak's i have that also and like it too but it was fun to build my ar..i know i did it and that makes it more fun to shoot

[benEzra]

I have wanted a 16" AR flattop for years, but couldn't justify spending the $800-$1000 due to my son's medical bills. I finally decided to go with a SAR-1 instead and absolutely love it.

I fitted it with a POSP 4x24 rangefinding illuminated-reticle scope for $99 plus shipping, which QD's on the SAR's side rail. Muzzle blast is considerably less than my friend's 16" AR, accuracy is about 2.5 MOA with el cheapo Norinco ammunition, magazines are dirt cheap, ammunition is nearly as cheap as some .22LR loads ($1.75/20 for Wolf), and I got the whole thing with optics for half the price of an optic-less AR.

I also like the fact that should I choose to, I can use the rifle in scoped, 5-rd-mag configuration as a short-range deer rifle (if I ever take up hunting).