[Futo Inu]

Here she is, after some mods and accessories, which I will list in detail with more pics in subsequent posts. Kinda cool, eh? I'm pumped! :)

[Dave Markowitz]

Neat looking.

That scope looks awfully low in comparison with the stock. Are you able to get your eye in the proper position without craning your neck?

[Futo Inu]

Modifications, by Kurt's Kustom Firearm's in Bushnell, FL:

1. 6x per side, lightening/cooling slots to upper receiver, and make OD green color.
2. Remove carry handle and install long ‘P’ rail on top.
3. Install underrail
3A. Move front sling swivel from underneath to left side of upper receiver.
4. Supply and install custom KKF folding charging handle.
5. Create sliding trapdoor on pistol grip.
6. Supply and install "A2 TacBrake" (muzzle brake)
7. Install point of attachment for AR/M16 style front sight.
8. Install left side rail, for miscellaneous (red dot, flashlight, etc.)

Accessories:

1. Ashley Outdoors P rail rear peep, installed for storage on underrail, for use in case scope goes Tango Uniform.
2. Trijicon Accupoint TR21 1.25-4x24 No-battery-IR scope
3. Weaver rings and teeny bikini (not shown)
4. Surefire torch, with mount, on underrail.
5. Forward pistol grip, on underrail.
6. ATN Ultra Sight red dot, left side, for close targets. This is optional - haven't decided whether worth it to keep it there yet.

What is not shown since I don't have it yet, is the front sight (backup) for use with the Ashley rear peep - anyone have any suggestions for a front post of this height? Particulary one that would fit in the handle storage area? Thanks

[Futo Inu]

Also...

[Futo Inu]

And...

[Futo Inu]

Finally, a close-up of the sliding trapdoor (oooooooh......aaaaaaaah). :)

And yes, it's low, but it's just about right for the low weld I prefer - those are, believe it or not, "high" Weaver rings (which are about the same height or lower than Millett "medium").

[AJ Dual]

Sorry,

I obviously missed the other thread where you stated the intent of this bullpup project.

What is it? A product improved Bushmaster M-17?

As to "thinking different", overall, I approve. You never get anywhere unless you try.

Is the left-side reflex red-dot to be moved to the top rail when needed, or is it used where it is? :scrutiny: Or do you have eyes in your chin?

It looks mondo-cool. I'm just not sure I understand.

[ShaiVong]

Wow. That is a really nice looking final product.

How much do you have into it, if you dont mind my asking?

[Fudgie Ghost]

What's the bbl length on that bad boy?

[Futo Inu]

Thanks. Yes it's a Bushmaster M17 Bullpup.

The idea behind the red dot on the side (lol - no, no eyes in the chin) - is that - let's say I zero the rifle for 200 yards, for a nice reasonable PBR. Well, PBR notwithstanding, it's still going to shoot at least 2.5" or more LOW at very short ranges (however much higher the scope's center line is above the barrel's center line). So, the idea of the red dot is to use ONLY to hose short-range targets - 20 yards or less, let's say, and have the red dot zeroed at 10-15 yards, let's say (when the rifle is turned 90 degrees to the right to fire), and one can easily acquire the red dot when the rifle is turned with a check weld on the bottom of the "buttplate" area, rather than the side. This way you don't have to worry about holding high with the scope at very short ranges for a DEAD-center hit - just point and click - ALWAYS - no thinkin' required. The scope is for all other ranges 20-30 yards + (short, medium, and long - just not very short ranges). Essentially what it does is, with the scope and red dot combined, change you from having a "5 inch-target-size" PBR (+ - 2.5") from zero to 225 yards - to a "3-inch-target-size" PBR (+ - 1.5"), from zero to 225 yards (approx.), with a 200 yard scope zero and 10 yard red dot zero - see what I mean? (this assumes about 3000 fps .223 bullet). Couldn't put the rail on the right, or I'd get brass in the face when the gun is turned horizontally. Utility of the red dot idea remains to be seen. It may very well be much easier (and lighter weight) to simply train for a smidge high hold at very short ranges. Easy to do in theory - the question is - will I/you do it second nature when the pressure is on? I just put all the potential gunk on it for the pic. :) If I scrap the red dot, then flashlight will go on the side, with forward pistol grip moved further forward. But I kinda like the flashlight where it is, though, since I can activiate the push-on with the index finger knuckle of my left (forward) hand. [BTW, in any event, once you're past the far point of the PBR, you must of course hold appropriately high.]

Actually, if you are interested, I plan on going with a 189 yard zero, giving me a 217 yard, 3"-target PBR (+ - 1.5") with a 62 gr .223 bullet doing 3,000 fps at muzzle).

Barrel length is 21.5", with a shorter OAL than a 16"-bbl'ed AR. :)

Man am I pumped. Ready for some 3-gun. Well, not skill-wise, just equipment-wise.

[Skofnung]

Looks great.

How is the trigger pull on it? I handled one not too long ago and the trigger was far from decent. Have you modified it at all? If they (or we, aftermarket) could iron that problem out, I would have to get one.

Let us know how it works out.

[Futo Inu]

On the trigger, it was absolutely abysmally horrid when I got it. Gunsmith worked on it - now it's a nice clean 7-8 pounds, approx. Actually he went a little too far at first, and the gun was double-tapping or triple-tapping sometimes (Grrr), but I *think* that's fixed now that some more jerry-rigging work it has been done - we'll see - if it's not, I'll have to just get a new sear. Doh. Well, it will be just right someday..... So yes, it's easy to fix just by filing down the sear. Back up a sec - I say "easy", but come to think of it, my gunsmith said that taking apart the fire control group was a **** (rhymes with itch), because the plate on the side of the rifle is melted/welded on, and it must be removed to take the thing apart. :( You could, with a little finess and patience, however, file down the fire control parts without taking the thing apart. So that would not be difficult. I'd do more lubing and less filing if I were you, because this fire control mechanism relies on the front two teeth of the sear to catch the hammer on the way back "up" from when you release the trigger from it's rearward position, where the hammer is held in place with the rear teeth of the sear. So, if you go too far, the hammer will make an additional trip forward (or two) resulting in double or triple tap while the trigger is making its way to reset before the front two teeth of the sear once again catch the hammer at forward reset. This is not good for 2 very very good reasons - you'd of course need all the NFA / Class III requirements first to have a 2-round-burst gun, I'd almost certainly imagine, if you don't already have them, and 2, sometimes you obviously want one and only one shot, not 2 or 3. So err on the side of caution, and have another sear on hand in case you do go too far, for swapping out, so you don't get Joe Batman knocking on your door. It's a fine line to walk to get a nice trigger but still enough meat on the front teeth to catch the hammer on the way forward without an extra trip forward and back by the hammer. On this subject, one thing that comes to mind as a possibility is to get a stronger hammer spring, because the rear "leafs / extensions" of the hammer spring serve double duty to push the sear up and forward, which in turn pushes the trigger bar and trigger forward. Well, if the spring was stronger, it would push the sear and trigger forward FASTER upon manual release of the trigger, making the front teeth of the sear catch the hammer more quickly, which would in turn allow you to take a little more meat off those teeth, and still have enough to catch the hammer on it's way up the first time, retaining semi-auto. BUT, then, with a stronger hammer spring, assuming such a thing even exists or can be made, might then introduce problems of perhaps broken firing pin or other problems - dunno. No real easy solution, but a combo of good lubing, and a *little* bit of sear filing should be able to get you a quite nice trigger for a *battle* rifle (not really a match rifle).

OK, I'll give a range report later on this week hopefully.

Andrew, no I don't think I ever detailed the project before now - sorry, didn't mean to imply that I had - so my bad, not yours.

Well, it's not cheap, I'll tell ya. A good $525 over the cost of the rifle, not counting shipping to gunsmith, and not counting (most) accessories like scope. So let's say - wow - hadn't really thought about it, and now not so sure I want to - ummm, it's got to be in excess of $1,800.... :what: A big part of that is that Trijicon scope. You could easily get by with a less expensive one, like a LER or Interm. ER scope. You could also go with a regular ER scope - it's a very flexible setup, when you get this P-rail delirious. My second choice scope for it was the Burris 2.75x fixed power LER "scout" scope, but I wanted the IR and the adjustable power up to 4 and down to 1.25 of the Trijicon. Of course, an ACOG would be a nice choice for this rifle, but I just could not afford / justify that, and plus, the Accupoint goes down to 1.25x, which I think might be handy in some circumstances.

My favorite part about this rifle is that it's the ultimate blissninny nightmare, yet-still-civilian-legal-postban EBR, what with the bullpup, pistol grip, etc. (good timing for a halloween blissninny scare). :D After all, we learned from the Beltway sniper media and anti-gun group reports, that .223 is the most powerful round on earth, far more powerful than the previously-thought-to-be-the-ultimate-in-deadliness handgun rounds.

Please lemme know if you want me to post a close-up of any other part of the rifle - I will.

I wonder how much bullpup fever this might start - c'mon Tam - NOW you LIKE Bushy bullpups, don't you? [nodding head in hypnotizing manner]. :)

Still need suggestions for a front sight that would work, and attach via that P rail?

[Futo Inu]

C'mon, c'mon, c'mon now folks! I've been waiting almost 20 minutes for someone else to covet my "new" rifle...what's the holdup?! JK. :)

BTW, the designation of this rifle is the

"GPSRPHDCMV3GMSHTFEOTWAWKIMIGT" Rifle

That's "General Purpose, Short-Range, Personal and Homeland Defense, Citizen's Militia, Varmints, 3-Gun Match, and Stuff Hit The Fan, End-Of-The-World-As-We-Know-It, Martian Invasion, Go-To" Rifle, got it? :D

Please show pics of *your* GPSRPHDCMV3GMSHTFEOTWAWKIMIGT gun, to make this thread more interesting....

Also taking name suggestions, but since this is my most prized firearm, or at least most expensive anyway (at present) I think it MUST probably be named after the best-looking gal of all time, "Mary Ann" (aka Dawn Wells). Besides, "Denise Richards" and "Catherine Zeta Jones" are too long for gun names. :)

[Hkmp5sd]

You may rest assured that at least one person covets it. I want one! :)

[Futo Inu]

Tee hee - I shoulda known that any member with "HK" in their user name, would covet something with THIS many plastic-ey doodads on it. ;) Lol. JK. Anyone in OK or passing through want to shoot it - jus gimme an email or PM.

BTW, I going to get:

"R.K.B.A." engraved on one side, and
"For The Children" engraved on the other.

BTW, my GPLRPHDCM Rifle is going to be a DSA FAL in .260 Rem at some point.

That's "General Purpose, Long-Range, Personal and Homeland Defense, Citizen's Militia" Rifle.

[CWL]

Cool lookin' critter.

Scope looks low to me as well. What if you added a 3-way riser rail to the top and mounted both red-dot and scope to it? It'd keep your optics in one cluster.

I'd prefer to mount the red-dot on the top because you might want quicker sight acquisition for CQB by having it on top. Scope on side because if you have time to aim with it, you can take the time to sight from the side.

Then again, it's your gun and advice is cheap. Almost bought me one of these before the Calif. AWB myself.

[Futo Inu]

CWL - sounds good, but whaddya mean exactly? Even though there's a little wiggle room, eye-relief-wise, on this scope, there ain't much room forward or back of where it is now, without running afoul of the flip-up charging handle, or getting out of eye relief. Do you mean use the red-dot through the scope? Front or back of it? Or something else? Which 3-way riser rail? Can you post a link to same? Thanks.

Maybe something like this?

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=18245&title=AR-15%2fM-16+DUAL-RAIL+ADAPTER+BASE

Ya know, with something like that, I could maybe just dispense with the red dot altogether by using the Ashley ghost ring with a front post for short range - on top, and put the scope on the angle (but aligned straight up/down, reticle-wise) -hmmm lotsa mental gymnastics here.

[Dionysusigma]

Whhooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... :eek:

Dude, I envy you greatly. That work of art belongs in a movie... come to think of it, it looks darn near like a Pulse Rifle from Aliens!:evil:

I want one, I want one!!! (alas, lack of funds is preventing me... one day, though, I will.) :D

[Sven]

Nice!

[Chris Rhines]

Wow.

Just, wow.

- Chris

[Beetle Bailey]

That's funny, my GPSRPHDCMV3GMSHTFEOTWAWKIMIGT (I hope I got that mouthful right) is named "Mary Ann" as well :rolleyes: . She's just a lowly Yugo SKS but she's got a bayonet and grenade-launcher sights :neener:

BTW, yours is too cool for words; can't wait for a range report :D .

[Onslaught]

If EVER there were a rifle DESERVING of the title "Ultimate Galactic Martian Defense Space Weapon", you sir, have it!

What caliber did you say that was? Illudium Q-36? ;)

If Kurt ever offers a left-handed mod for the M17s, I will have one!

Congratulations... That's one sweet rifle!

OH wait... P.S.

anyone have any suggestions for a front post of this height?

IIRC, the setup you have is PERFECT for the Bushmaster folding front sight. That way you could leave it mounted all the time and never have to worry about finding it when you need it.

http://www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com/i/M17/BOIronsOD1.jpg

Heck, for all I know, this may be YOUR rifle, as I got the link obviously from Kurt's website ;)

Personally, I'd raise the scope and leave the rear ghost ring mounted all the time... In fact, if you attached that scope, rings and all, to either an ARMS #5 or the Rock River Arms (improved) equivalent, you could probably use the peep sight UNDER the scope, and do away with that ATN sight for close work...

WHICH, by the way, considering the Trij. sight uses the Bindon Aiming Concept, you really have no need for the ATN sight, even as it is now. Your scope does both.

[BusMaster007]

That's a LOTTA:
thought
money
and gun! :D

Pretty cool setup!

[Andrew Wyatt]

it wouldn't be too hard to make that thing eject leftways.


cut another ejection port, install a left hand ar-15 bolt.

[brass shower]

Nice lookin piece Futo.

I picked a preban one of these a few weeks ago. I suspect the previous owner couldn't hold any groups with it since the barrel tensioning sleeve was removed. $25 worth of parts from bushmaster and it's shooting as good as my AR-15. The trigger as it came was pretty horrid. I sprayed the contact points with some moly sulfide lube and it's a smooth 5-6 pound pull now. Much smoother than I thought possible actually after hearing the horror stories about bullpup triggers, and almost lighter than what I prefer for a self loading rifle.

I was pondering sending it off to Kurt for some work. I'd like to shave the barrel down 3-4", I havn't decided yet whether I want the receiver shortened as well or if I'll have the muzzle device tension directly against the forward receiver block eliminating the barrel sleeve altogether.

The picatinny rail and forward grip are definitely a good idea, after a few magazines the receiver starts warming up. I didn't shoot it enough to get it unconfortable to hold but I have no doubt that it wouldnt take much effort to burn your hands with it.

Were you able to notice any weight difference with the drilling in the receiver? It's a heavy beast at 8+ pounds, I wonder else could be done to reduce that. Anything that takes material off the receiver is going to help of course, I wonder if it would be possible to flute the barrel though. Maybe a carbon fiber receiver?

[Wakal]

Pretty cool! Neat nomenclature, too. :D

I am curious, though...why the ATN on the left side? Being mostly righthanded, I put a OKO on the right side of my three-gun upper...after trying it all over both sides of the handguard at various angles using the ultimate tactical non-permantent scout-rail attaching devices (hose clamps). All six or seven of us "serious" 3-gun ubergeeks around these parts settled on various angles of the 1-3 o'clock mounting rail...

http://www.dreadnaught-industries.com/images/file/guns/race_ar.JPG







Alex

[AJ Dual]

I can only assume then that Futo is a southpaw. Correct?

I get it. CQB/close-in type shots, quickly rotate the rifle 90 degrees clockwise (from shooters POV), butt is horizontal on your shoulder, and you've got a "homeboy hold" but still have a sighting system. The rifle is ejecting straight down then.

A right hander would put the reflex on the right forward rail, and rotate 90 degrees counter-clockwise instead, but would suffer upward ejecting brass, at least with a bullpup.

[Futo Inu]

Andrew and Wakal, that's right, homeboy hold, and I actually started off by asking Kurt to put the rail on the RIGHT side, but he put it on the left instead, to keep brass from hitting me in the face when the rifle is turned - more important with the bullpup config. (read my post above in detail on this). So I deferred to Kurt on that, but no, I am right-handed, not left. I actually thought it would be unweildy for me, a right-hander, to turn the rifle 180 to the right (with the left rail), but it's actually quite easy to do WITH the front pistol grip (and rear pistol grip) as a good, quick torqueing device, and as noted, brass goes down, not up.

Look at this doohickey at Brownell's - if I turn it 180 degrees from it's anticipated mounting, such that the red dot is in the 10:30 to 11:00 o'clock position, it will probably work nicely, and frees up the left for the flashlight, so I can put my grip further forward, and still keeps the brass outta ma face. Actually, if I get this one, then I can try it both ways (red dot at 11:00 and 1:00), and see if I get hit with brass at 1:00, and change it to 11:00 if I do:

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=18245&title=AR-15%2fM-16+DUAL-RAIL+ADAPTER+BASE&s=42066#42066

Onslaught, that may in fact be my rifle, but Kurt emailed me today saying that he didn't charge me for the front sight, and therefore didn't send it - but he may have had it on mine for that pic - I dunno - so yes, I'm going to order the fold-down front from Bushmaster today! Coolness - hope it's the right height for use with that Ashley Outdoors peep - I think it should work given the adjustment ability of the A2 style screw-in post.

No, I didn't notice any weight reduction from the lightening slots, because obviously the overall weight is much heavier, given the 4 new rails on it, one of which is very long. It's a little heavier than ideal, true - I *may* at some point take the left P rail off as unnecessary. I don't think I'd shorten the barrel or you lose the main advantage of the bullpup - a long barrel, giving you high velocities in a still fairly short overall length - doesn't make sense to me to shorten the barrel any, algthough Kurt will certainly do that. His prices are good (though it DOES add up), and he does a good job, but expect a wait - he took a long time getting it done - I guess he's swamped down there - both literally and figuratively.

Actually, the scope HAS TO go on top, not off to the side, or your long-range ballistics get SNAFU'ed. I like the idea of a little red dot at 11:00 - I'll post some updates after I re-configure - doh - no rest for the wicked, I tells ya.

PS. Onslaught, you said:

"Personally, I'd raise the scope and leave the rear ghost ring mounted all the time... In fact, if you attached that scope, rings and all, to either an ARMS #5 or the Rock River Arms (improved) equivalent, you could probably use the peep sight UNDER the scope, and do away with that ATN sight for close work... "

You may be onto something there, and I had thought about that, but dismissed it, with the idea that I want that scope as low as possible. But, there are several "pros" to doing that....First, it elimates the weight, reliance on batteries, and necessity of turning the rifle to shoot. Second, if the scope is for longer work only, then there's not necessarily a NEED to get the scope as low as possible. I may do this IF the front sight can be adjusted to line up where I need it for close work. This appeals to me, particulary to eliminate reliance on batteries.

"WHICH, by the way, considering the Trij. sight uses the Bindon Aiming Concept, you really have no need for the ATN sight, even as it is now. Your scope does both."

Well, hmmm, not exactly, I don't think. First off, I'm not sure of the EXACT definition of what does or does not constitue a "BAC" reticle. This one on the Accupoint is illuminted, yes, but it's a very precise point/triangle on the non-illuminated post. So it is (a) not the quickest acquisition because it's not very large - certainly not like the donuts on some ACOG - I think some ACOGs have donuts or large triangles, don't they, or am I thinking of the Trijicon reflex? - and (b) the Accupoint still has the "problem" of shooting a fair amount low at fairly close ranges, which will be exacerbated by a ARMS or other see-through mount. Thats FINE, as long as I have a quick and dirty yet still dead-on sight, and a red dot is great for that. Irons can be good too. I'll have to just order the irons, practice with them, see where they're hitting, with adjustment, and how quick they are. If they're very quick, then I'll probably just go with the ARMS mount and forget about the red dot. If they're not so quick, I'll 11:00 oclock mount that red dot, keep the scope low, and have the flip up/stoway irons for backup only (for when scope and red dot both go TU).

[Keith]

Jeez, for that kind of money I'd expect all that plastic junk to be pulled off and replaced with metal or walnut! Just don't leave it in the trunk of your car on a hot day...

Keith

[Andrew Wyatt]

yeah! and don't go swimming in acetone with it! :rolleyes:

[Keith]

I'm just teasing. It's an interesting rifle and I'd love to shoot it!

Keith

[Onslaught]

I'm not sure of the EXACT definition of what does or does not constitue a "BAC" reticle.
BAC is a "concept" rather than specific hardware, but since I have never looked through the Accupoint, I can't say if would work or not. Going from the pic I saw on the SWFA site, the triangle looked larger than you describe, so I was going on what I saw.

http://www.swfa.com/riflescopes/trijicon/tr21r.jpg

Any illuminated optic that you can look through with both eyes open and see JUST the reticle superimposed over the non-magnified picture that your weak eye is seeing is using the "Bindon Aiming Concept".
As for the POA, POI... If your reticle were larger as it appeared to be from the pic, then it would work similarly to the "ACOG Reflex" 12.5 moa triangle where you use the tip of the triangle for 50 yards +, and the triangle as a whole for <50 yards. The POA is 3" lower at 50 yards this way, and if the Reflex II were a better optic, I'd still be using one.

I'd definitely practice with it and see how well I could see the reticle with both eyes open and moving around. I would imagine that red worked better than amber, and judging from the square around your light gathering piece, yours is the latter.

The Bushmaster front sight should be just fine, given what Kurt had to say in this thread (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=44&t=141212) specifically on M17s sight ideas.

Keep us posted, as I'd like to see how she continues to transition.

it wouldn't be too hard to make that thing eject leftways.


cut another ejection port, install a left hand ar-15 bolt.
That's what I figured too. But apparently, the internal workings of the Bullpup are a lot different than the AR. There's a "bolt guide rail" on the left side of the receiver that would block left side ejection. The entire rail would have to be moved to the right side...

[Futo Inu]

Onslaught, you are right - Kurt told me today that the Bushy fold-down front sight will work perfectly with the Ashley Outdoors rear - and he tested it to be sure even. So I ordered one - I'll keep yas posted. I'm pumped.

The triangle point on the Accupoint is quite small; smaller than it appears in that picture. But if BAC means you can keep both eyes open and just see the reticle imposed on the target, then the accupoint does that - particularly at 1.25-2x. But the POA and POI is gonna be a tad off at very short ranges, regardless of the reticle size, of course, with any zero, but particularly with a relative long zero such as 200 - but this zero makes sense for this scope given it's precise small tip, you see.

[Onslaught]

I keep coming back to this post, just so I can download your pics again :D
I could take that same $1800 and all your "accessories" and blow it all on my pre-ban Bushmaster AR15, and yours would still stand out... MAN I want one!

I also figured out which fictional character would be most deserving of a rifle like yours.... Sci Fi's most tactical of all...

http://www.skaines.com/fett/Media/jonfett4.jpg

Here's an explanation of the Bindon Aiming Concept (http://www.trijicon-inc.com/aiming.html) because I'm still not explaining it exactly.

I have never really looked at the Accupoint as an option, but thanks to you, I am now. Like I needed to spend another $600 on my rifle! Just don't tell my wife!

One thing to consider on that POA stuff. With the AR, depending on where you zero, your bullet crosses POA at, lets use 50 yards, then again about 200 yards, with about a 2"+ variation above or below the rest of the time out to 250 or so. Now I've never shot 3-gun, but I can't imagine a scenario where you'd need a shot to be more accurate than 2" from POA in a competition. Of course, your rifle will probably vary since height over bore is probably different, but the concept should be the same... A little extra playing around and you could figure out exactly where your bullet is at those distances.

Good luck, and if I haven't said it enough yet... Nice Rifle! Keep us posted!

[Futo Inu]

Onslaught - Boba Fett - lol - yep this is some stone-cold bad@zz tactical shiz that would make even Boba proud to shoot. :)

Okay, here is Mary Ann after some additions/changes since prior pics:

-Out with the Weaver rings, in with Leupold high see-throughs. I really hadn't planned on using see throughs, in order to get the lowest mount possible, but after tinkering with it (it was indeed TOO low), by the time I got the scope as high as I liked, there was room to use a see-through so why not?
-Bushmaster fold-down front sight.
-Sling
-Out with red dot; flashlight moved to left side
-B-square bipod, "Roto-tilt" model, on Bushmaster's weaver bipod adapter (swivel stud)
-Cheapie "flip-off" rubber scope covers (they stay on the scope tube).

Onslaught, as far as the PBR thing goes - here's my theory on that... Yes, you're correct that in theory, a 5"-target-based PBR is fine, and that's what you'd get with this setup at all ranges to about 225 with a 200 zero (because of the -2.5" at very short ranges, even though you'd only be 1.5" low at 225 or so, not -2.5 there). BUT, that assumes a perfect hold, which is not likely standing, under pressure, on the run, etc. So, to allow for such sighting/holding errors, I run with a THREE inch-based PBR, which gives me about a 5" target coverage in practice, taking into account errors in holding. For example, if your target is 5", and you're 2.5" with a perfect hold, then the slightest error in hold results in a miss. Since 5" is in fact a good practical range, I tighten up the ballistics numbers to a 3" based PBR to cover such errors. A 60/62 gr .223 bullet with a muzzle vel or 3,000 fps, with a 189 yard zero, is only -1.5" out to 217 yards. But -2.5 at 5 yards. Hence the idea of using a red dot for say, 5 to 30 yards, and still use "dead-on, no-think" sighting. Now, however, having said all of that, I've decided to forget about it, and just simply train to hold a tad high at short ranges (not too hard), and rely exclusively on my primary sighting system - the Trijicon scope (with irons as emergency only). Especially since with all the other junk on it, it's already the heaviest "light rifle" I've ever felt.

[Futo Inu]

And...

[Futo Inu]

Last one.

[Badger Arms]

What's the weight on this Leatherman Multi-Gun?

[Futo Inu]

Dunno because I don't have an accurate scale. But my 20+ year old bathroom scale of questionable accuracy seems to indicate about 11.5 - 12.0 pounds, with everything except mag/ammo. What's a good but inexpensive accurate scale to measure gun weights anyhow?

[Black Snowman]

Local gun store uses a fish scale good to 25 lbs I think you can get them for under $20 and are more-or-less accurate to the ounce.

[Daniel T]

That's one hell of a tactical ironing board. Are those tactical undies I see in one of those pics? :D

That's an amazing rifle, Futo. Good job.

[Litlman]

That is pretty cool looking!!!!!!