LR optics on a budget


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newdude
March 30, 2009, 02:50 PM
I am looking for a scope for my new AR, i am looking to shoot about 800yd+/-. I prefer some sort of mil-dot rectical or a HORUS-like retical, and mil clicks. One i am looking at is this; a Falcon Menace (http://www.falconoptics.com/menace4-14x44FFP.php). Does anyone have experiance with this scope, or others from Falcon? I would prefer not to go below 10x magnification or over $500...
Also, i have a .260 bolt gun that i am looking for a better scope than the peice of junk i have on it. I read Zak Smith's Pratical Long Range optics artical, but those scopes are way too expensive... (considering i have only $1500 in the gun, $2k for a scope is a bit high) Anyone have a idea? I was thinking about a Horus Raptor, but i read very, very little about Horus scopes...?



Thanks,

Neal

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H2O MAN
March 30, 2009, 02:53 PM
Look for a used Leupold at a greatly reduced price... they have a great warranty.

Jerry D
March 30, 2009, 03:49 PM
You could get a bushnell 4200 tactical for less than 500. The super sniper scopes from swfta are lower price range but have been proven to work.

You could also get a used Leupold for under 500, same with a ziess probally or an IOR valida (sp)

dagger dog
March 30, 2009, 04:46 PM
Check out some of Millets and Burris tactical lines you will be surprised at the quality and features available and pricing under 500 bucks.

Zak Smith
March 30, 2009, 04:50 PM
Try a used Leupold, Burris XTR, or SWFA Super Sniper (and that's in order of preference).

H2O MAN
March 30, 2009, 05:51 PM
Zak Smith Try a used Leupold,...

Great idea! ;)

Zak Smith
March 30, 2009, 05:54 PM
I was just backin' you up. :cool:

JWarren
March 30, 2009, 05:55 PM
What is the adjustment range on the Burris XTR?


-- John

newdude
March 30, 2009, 06:15 PM
I was thinking about a used leupold, or perhaps if i find a smoking deal on a older USO, that would be nice. What would be a good model of leupold? Any comment on the Falcon?

JWarren
March 30, 2009, 06:23 PM
newdude,

I was looking at that Falcon a while back. Honestly, it was tempting. It seemed to have all the things I was looking for.

But if you look around, you will get mixed reviews. I can't remember what model, but one had the tubes start seperating. Upon discovery of this issue, I was not pleased to read how Falcon handled it.

Even though it seems that they straightened it out, it took a lot of time. Falcon is across the pond and wants its dealers (which are few in the USA) to do primary CS and servicing. Beyond that, you have to deal with England. That seems to be too complicated for the money involved.

I ended up getting a Leupold Mark IV used for a great price.


Before I got a Falcon, I'd take a hard look at Millet's TRS-1 for a variable. At least you can expect better CS if it does break. In that same price range, I'd probably take a Super Sniper fixed power over the Falcon.

-- John

newdude
March 30, 2009, 06:32 PM
JWarren,
Thanks, the millett looks nice, but it has MOA clicks and a mil retical. I really want to completly transfer from MOA to Mils soon, as it annoys me to have the MOA/Mil combo in the same scope. I guess i will start to look for a leupold.
I tried to go throughh their website, but looking at every single scope they have is a bit hard, does anyone know if there is some sort of chart that lists all the the leupold specs? (so i can find one to my specifications...)

H2O MAN
March 30, 2009, 06:38 PM
newdude What would be a good model of leupold?

This may be slightly more scope than you need, but it's a good example of what is available.

I picked up this FDE Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T with Illuminated TMR Reticle for $650.00.
The best deal going on a new one is about $1350.00 shipped.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/LT-608b.jpg

JWarren
March 30, 2009, 06:42 PM
H2O Man,

I've got that exact same optic in black. Those look like the M3 turrents, correct? That's what I have.

$650? Wow... I thought my deal was a screaming one at $750.

-- John

newdude
March 30, 2009, 06:43 PM
This may be slightly more scope than you need, but it's a good example of what is available.

I picked up this FDE Mark 4 3.5-10x40mm LR/T with Illuminated TMR Reticle for $650.00.
The best deal going on a new one is about $1350.00 shipped.


Actually, as i said, i don't want to go below 10x on the high end, so that would be perfect. (providing it fits into all the little things i didn't mention yet...:D) Great deal!

Nice lookin M14 you got there too!

MAX100
March 30, 2009, 06:47 PM
the millett looks nice, but it has MOA clicks and a mil retical. I really want to completly transfer from MOA to Mils soon, as it annoys me to have the MOA/Mil combo in the same scope.

The new Millett TRS-1 & LRS-1 scopes for 2009 are offered in 1/4" or .1 Mil clicks, your choice. You may have to wait a few weeks for one. SWFA has them listed.


GC

newdude
March 30, 2009, 07:00 PM
Okay, cool.

Iansstud
March 30, 2009, 07:13 PM
Ok, 1/4" vs. .1mil....

whats the best route? Im sure I depends, on what you want, but what about someone that is just started shooting L/R? I'm about to buy the Millett and dont know what I want... Im sure Ill know in a few years and dont want to kick my self in the ass... I'm somewhat used to 1/4 but thats all Ive ever used..

H2O MAN
March 30, 2009, 07:14 PM
JWarren Those look like the M3 turrents, correct?

Mine has the faster 1/2 MOA M2 dials.

newdude
March 30, 2009, 07:18 PM
Ok, 1/4" vs. .1moa....

whats the best route? Im sure I depends, on what you want, but what about someone that is just started shooting L/R? I'm about to buy the Millett and dont know what I want... Im sure Ill know in a few years and dont want to kick my self in the ass... I'm somewhat used to 1/4 but thats all Ive ever used..Well, if you have a mil dot retical, or something like a Horus retical, then it is annoying to have to think of scope adjustments in MOA and retical holdover stuff in mils. More chance that you screw up, and just plain slower.

Iansstud
March 30, 2009, 07:30 PM
Oops, I put .1moa not .1mil...
I ment 1/4" vs. .1Mil

I think Ill go .1mil? I would be getting mildot, thats what I have now. I dont think I have ever used hold over yet, It does sound easyer with mils...

Is having mil adjustments a new thing? most scopes I can think of use 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" or 1" moa.

Thanks

Zak Smith
March 30, 2009, 07:32 PM
0.1 mil = 0.34 MOA

The article referred to in the opening post explains mils, moa, etc.

gvnwst
March 30, 2009, 07:33 PM
Is having mil adjustments a new thing? most scopes I can think of use 1/8", 1/4", 1/2" or 1" moa.

I think (just a idea) that the reason MOA is so popular for the public is that it is pretty much 1" at 100yd, and everyone thinks in inches. One mil is 10cm at 100m, .1mil is 1cm. Which would you prefer to use, if you were the average joe, with no shots past 200 probably, and no such thing as holdover and mil dot reticals?

Zak Smith
March 30, 2009, 07:39 PM
One mil is one deciyard at 100 yards, and one 0.1 mil click is one centiyard. What, you guys don't think in centiyards??

gvnwst
March 30, 2009, 07:40 PM
One mil is one deciyard at 100 yards, and one 0.1 mil click is one centiyard. What, you guys don't think in centiyards??
I was under the impression that pretty much all mil scopes used metric, as it is more fitting of the system?

Zak Smith
March 30, 2009, 07:49 PM
My post was in jest.

A mil scope isn't specific to meters, and it's incorrect to say they "use metric" (since a scope really uses angular not linear units).

One mil is simply one part transverse in 1000 parts distance. Hence 1 yard @ 1000 yards, 3.6" @ 3600", 0.5 meters @ 500 meters, etc.

One MOA is 1.0472" at 100 yards, or 2.9 cm @ 100 meters. The percent error from "round" numbers of MOA units vs. meters (ie, almost 3 cm @ 100m) is actually less than the 4.7% error of MOA vs. yards/inches!

gvnwst
March 30, 2009, 07:54 PM
Yeah, what i am meaning, if you have 1 mil (yards) you will have 1 yd at 1k yd. Now switch that to meters, and you will ahev a different angle, switching the unit of measure makes for different measurements, no? I was under the inpression that most scope makers used it so that 1mil is 1 meter at 1k meters, rather than 1yd at 1k yd..?

Zak Smith
March 30, 2009, 07:58 PM
[I was under the inpression that most scope makers used it so that 1mil is 1 meter at 1k meters, rather than 1yd at 1k yd.
There is no difference-- those two examples both are 1 mil, the exact same angle.

1 part height in 1000 parts length (any of the same units) is 1 mil.

gvnwst
March 30, 2009, 08:01 PM
Oh, okay, awesome.

Zak Smith
March 30, 2009, 08:03 PM
To confuse matters, some scope makers who sell/label their clicks and/or reticles as MOA actually use IPHY (1"@100 yards), and on the other side, S&B labels (or used to label) their mil-click scopes as "1 KLICK = 1CM"-- which really means 0.1 mrad per click.

litman252
March 30, 2009, 11:01 PM
Zak, I realize you live this stuff but do you sleep w/ it as well? I would have spent 20 minutes w/ a calculator and a couple pieces of paper in the last 10 posts in this thread, and it would have been all wrong in the end:D

Thanks for the info :eek:


Tony

newdude
March 31, 2009, 05:59 PM
Wow, this thread really took off! (then stalled:D)

Thanks to everyone for the input, my next question is, what is a good model that Leupold makes? (that has a FFP mil dot retical, mil clicks, "good" size body tube, and so on) Zak, if you have any experiance with the lower end ones, are there any particularly suited to pratical shooting out to 1k?

Zak Smith
March 31, 2009, 06:22 PM
Leupold only has very few FFP models, like 2 or 3 max.

Body tube size is irrelevant other than it usually means more erector travel (more overall elevation available) and weird tube sizes make mount selection harder.

If you want to spend under $800 on a scope, I think you'll be back to the suggestions early in this thread.

A new Leupold with the noted features, or a Nightforce, will likely be $1300+.

-z

newdude
April 2, 2009, 08:38 PM
Leupold only has very few FFP models, like 2 or 3 max
Okay, which ones are those?


A new Leupold with the noted features, or a Nightforce, will likely be $1300+.

Is that new or used? If it is new, i think i could go for a used one and get it within my price range.

Zak Smith
April 2, 2009, 08:43 PM
Last I checked they had a 3.5-10 and like a 6-20 or something like that. They have "First Focal" in their model names.

newdude
April 2, 2009, 08:46 PM
Oh. Well, that simplifies things:D

Thanks for your great help Zak!

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