15 feet - and your covered already ......


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P95Carry
October 9, 2003, 10:01 PM
Ok .... I know .... CCW oriented .. again :rolleyes:

But it is something close to my heart .. the need to analize and play out scenarios mentally .... hoping to be all the better prepared for what we hope never occurs. May only be that one chance to save your own skin. Plus I value greatly the input from people here ... some thru first hand experience and many just from informed opinion.

So - he is what we have .....

Despite your (hoped for!) situational awareness ..... you step into a hornet's nest. Gas station let's say.

In you go to pay and just as you enter, a BG has produced his piece in order to rob the clerk .... he hears/sees you enter and immediately covers you - he has the drop .... seeing you maybe as threat #1.

You have your piece of course but ... it ain't doing much good in the holster ... he looks mean and well able to shoot .. just for kicks ... he's not out for a fun day.

Any way out .... at all?? However fast your draw he can find time to cap you. It's 15 feet remember so ... no chance of physical lunges at him I'd think.

Maybe a sharp transition laterally and fling to floor perhaps, maybe even cover if lucky? I don't know ... I have visualized various possibles but ... if the guy means business, this is not a healthy situation. Could we react so fast that he'll pause long enough ... any good even shouting very loud .. I am told that can be distracting.

Anyways ... over to you ..... let's hear some thoughts.

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C.R.Sam
October 9, 2003, 10:20 PM
Bad distance....to far to get physical and too close for health.
Think I would dive for cover and swim as far as I could on the floor...
And try to get a gun out in the process.



Sam

hillbilly
October 9, 2003, 10:31 PM
Fifteen feet and he's got you covered already?

A) If there's an exit that you can move towards suddenly and laterally, go for it. Especially if you can go behind some sort of cover or concealment?

Under high stress situations, hitting a moving target, especially a target that's really motivated to move, is difficult at best.

Chances are thug is not a highly trained pistolero.

No lateral exits?

B)Dive behind cover while screaming "OH GOD PLEASE DON'T SHOOT ME PLEASE DON'T OH GOD!" while drawing your own piece?

C)Stand with your hands up, act scared (won't be hard) and sheepish and compliant waiting for a chance to draw or flee or both?

D) jump back out the door you just came through?

Just as a bit of video evidence, I reference the Kehoe brothers shoot-out video. Cop and thug fire something like 15 rounds at each other
from the length of a 4WD vehicle apart, and nobody got hit.

I would say do something, anything.

Act, don't react.

Don't just stand there and die.

hillbilly

Roadkill Coyote
October 9, 2003, 10:36 PM
If it looks like he is going to shoot you right then and there, you have no other choice. Dependent upon your judgement though, you may be able to play along, tell him its cool, offer him your wallet, and wait until he turns back to the clerk. Then act decisively, whether by getting outa dodge, going for cover, or shooting him.

Jim K
October 10, 2003, 12:53 AM
I know this doesn't really answer the question, but if you are carrying, never let your gun hand get very far from your gun or get involved in something you can't get out of. This means never forgetting about the gun or becoming unaware you are carrying. Carry packages in your off hand; take your wallet out with your off hand, use your gun hand as little as possible to take change, etc. Use a holster you can get to easily by flipping aside a coat or jacket.

Forget deep cover carry for ordinary carry. If you are "made" and are illegal, you are already in trouble, but a good holster and the right gun will prevent that. BTW, being aware of the gun does NOT mean fussing with it, adjusting the holster, playing with the grip angle, etc. Those are signs cops look for to spot illegal carry.

Practice fast shooting from the draw. This will be impossible on a "safety first" range, but you can probably find somewhere else to practice. This is at your own risk. You either want to be able to respond fast to an emergency or you want to be safe. Some say you can do both, but I am not sure. No finger in the trigger guard until the sights are lined up is great advice for range safety - and for getting killed on the street.

I have not done a lot of fast draw in recent years and this goes against all the new safety rules, but I always drew with my finger on the trigger (DA revolver, Chiefs Special or Combat Magnum). In fact, when I was drawing from a high right holster, photos showed the hammer moving back just as my gun cleared the holster. (My toes are all present, thank you.)

The best advice in a gunfight is still to avoid one. In the situation described, that might not be possible, but it is in most cases. If you are not a cop, don't go looking for trouble, or get into a situation where only shooting will get you out. Even in that situation, looking ahead would help, since most stores have glass doors. Your chances of getting away to call the police or of getting the upper hand is a lot better if you are outside than if you are inside with the BG.

But you should also be alert for a getaway car; most stickup artists have a buddy waiting. Car near the door, engine running, lone driver = trouble. So learn to spot that kind of situation as well. Don't shoot, just get the license number and a description of the BG and his buddy. Most robberies do NOT result in a shooting, so the odds are that shooting will not save a life, but will get you in a lot of trouble, even if everything goes "OK". If you kill or wound the BG, you can get an arrest and a lawsuit instead of an award. If you accidentally shoot a clerk or an innocent bystander, you become the BG, no matter what your intent was.

Jim

sm
October 10, 2003, 01:52 AM
We "acted" out this scene one time, I was the BG. We used safe guns. I have the clerk at bay, another fellow comes in and I point safe gun at him, yelling for him to get next to clerk. This fellow gets his hands up, stumbles over the "potato chip" rack , my eyes are following him when I hear "bang". Clerk took advantage of my being distracted and I was "hit" ,of course at the surprise of being hit, the other fellow whom feined, stumbled and such yells bang. Playing the part of BG one learns, playing part of BG with safety stuff and wax bullets, really smarts and ingrains lessons too. Being the BG ain't easy, I don't think I was that bad at the part. We switch and change up, all agreed playing BG is not all that cracked up to be. Granted we were sober and all, still gives a different perspective.

Use what is available, distance, action vs reaction, practice and role play with people. Pray it never happens, practice like it will...luck don't hurt either.

V-fib
October 10, 2003, 03:14 AM
Gimme three steps,... gimee three steps mister, and you’ll never see me no more. fo shore!

Sorry, but its the first thing that came into my head.

:cool: :D

BluesBear
October 10, 2003, 03:55 AM
What would I do? I would look at and memorize every detail of his appearance so I could give a really good description to the police. It's only money. In fact it's only someone elses money.

Most robbers don't shoot their victims. Unless I was sure that I was going to get shot no matter what I would just go with the flow.

IF and only IF there was an opportunity to turn the tables without getting myself or any other innocents harmed would I even consider doing anything else.

P95Carry
October 10, 2003, 09:28 AM
My thanks ......... I appreciate the time and trouble of the guys who posted on this.

Indeed ..... it is a hard one to imagine ... but even harder would be the acid test were it to ever happen .. I guess then we'd all have to rely on training and ''auto-pilot'' ... little time for much else.

Whilst I carry religiously - I also pray to never have to use ...... the burden of responsibility is never far from my mind.

Jim Watson
October 10, 2003, 10:25 AM
There was an actual case of this type in Memphis this year. Two crooks abducted a man who was wearing an effectively concealed gun. He was patient and when they separated to search his home for valuables and the one remaining with him was distracted by the sight of money, he only then drew and shot him. The other crook apparently thought the shots were his partner eliminating a witness, sauntered back in unawares, and was shot. One crook dead, one wounded and in jail.

Details at
www.rangemaster.com
click on Newsletter Archives and then on
Volume 6, Issue 8 for August

Ukraine Train
October 10, 2003, 11:07 AM
Does anyone know the actual stats of what percent of robberies involve a shooting?

sgt127
October 10, 2003, 11:26 AM
I would likely start with "Woops, sorry buddy, didn't realize you were busy here, let me get out of your way" and try and not be a threat and work my way out. If that doesn't work....
While screaming "Here, here, take my money, don't hurt me!!" You throw the money that you were going to pay with down at his feet. His eyes and attention go to the Bling Bling laying on the gound. You move laterally and engage or escape. When in a bad area, I will intentionally carry a handful of loose ones in my pocket or a dummy wallet with expired credit cards and one dollar bills just to throw and run or buy me reaction time.

I don't think I would go where he wants me to go, like beside the clerk, I would rather take a chance bolting..."Serpentine Olly...Serpentine!!" (wonder if that makes sense to anybody else?)

whitebear
October 10, 2003, 12:24 PM
Sgt127 -

Isn't that a quote from "The In-Laws"?..."Serpentine Olly...Serpentine!!"

P95Carry
October 10, 2003, 12:25 PM
..."Serpentine Olly...Serpentine!!" Laurel & Hardy??? :p

Zebulon
October 10, 2003, 12:27 PM
Faint like a schoolgirl and hope it all goes away by the time you wake up.....Zeb

sgt127
October 10, 2003, 01:50 PM
Whitebear is a winner with the Inlaws!!

12-34hom
October 10, 2003, 02:12 PM
15 feet & he has the drop on you. = your toast.

#1 = Find cover if possible.

#2 = Last ditch = draw your weapon and hope your shooting abilities are better than his, and please.... don't kill the guy behind the counter.

12-34hom.

Ala Dan
October 10, 2003, 02:59 PM
Greeting's All-

In this case as in all other's, pay attention to detail; ie
the perps eyes. If and when he moves his eyes off of you,
that is your chance to respond. Whether or not its with
firepower*, will have to be made on the scene. At best,
you may have to escape and evade; then seek help.

*FootNote- I would only recommend firepower for those
trained with, and proved to be proficent in the use of
their CCW. This is not a time for a novice to step up and
try to be a hero!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Archie
October 10, 2003, 03:33 PM
If the robber is taking the money and leaving, it's better to witness and make notes.

If shooting starts, you will be next and you have nothing to lose at that point.

If the badguys want everyone to go into the back room, THEY ARE GOING TO KILL YOU ALL. Similarly, no cop who has ever surrendered his weapon to an aggressor has survived.

CWL
October 10, 2003, 04:05 PM
Anyone trying to stand there and outdraw a pointed gun will remove themselves from the gene pool.

MOVE! Keep moving, if you are going down (and if he has the drop, you have a high chance this will happen) -at least go down fighting. Remember, you already are moving and have motion, momentum on your side, the robber is static. (Masters of Kung Fu might close the 5yd distance for an attack, but I wouldn't)

Quick lateral movements are surprising effective and hard to follow for an unpracticed pistolero.

Movement, speed, surprise (for both of you), and distance are your only friends here. If you can get away to a safe distance, barricade, you can take the time to draw your own firearm, cellphone, whistle, whatever.

(this seems remarkably like the 'liquorstore scenario' that keeps popping up).

DMK
October 10, 2003, 06:55 PM
I saw a copy of a training video one time that was given to women of the community by the local PD training folks. How to avoid rape, attack and all that.

Anyway, the one thing that stuck in my mind was where the officer was advising that if somebody pulled a gun on you and tried to force you into the car, do not go! If you get into the car, you have severely limited your options and rape or murder is immenent. It was advised to run away, preferably in a erratic manor (serpentine). The chances would be much better for you because:

1) There is the chance that the attacker will not shoot. May not want to draw attention. Might not be willing to kill. Maybe it's not loaded or even a real gun.

2) If he does shoot, what are the chances he could hit a moving target? Plus every second he's waiting to make a decision, you are getting further away and therefore harder to hit.

3) So he does shoot and hits you. What are the chances that he hits a vital spot?

Of course, actually defending yourself was never advised in the video, :rolleyes: but I believe that point at least is valid.

If you stand still or cooperate, you are greaty increasing your chances of getting killed. You are leaving yourself at the mercy of a criminal. Criminals are not known for a great deal of mercy.

C.R.Sam
October 10, 2003, 07:10 PM
Most robbers don't shoot their victims. Maby not, but some do.
Do you take responsibility for your own well being ?
Or do you delegate that authority to a crook with a gun on you ?

Sam

Rogelio
October 10, 2003, 07:41 PM
P95Carry

For a long time now, I have only used this forums for learning losts of things, and while this is not much, it has saved my life one time and I hope that it can also be usefull for you and for all the great people here at THR.

This is not an idea of mine, but it was designed by a sweedish airsoft team. It is cheap, it is legal (at least it is legal here) and it saved me and my girlfriend when we were at an armed robbery at a Shell gas station. It is a home made flashbang.It is ULTRA concealable and won´t cost you over 30 cents to make, so you can really get proficient with it.

Directions and lots of pictures can be found here. It is in spanish, but If anyone can not find a nice translator software, I can do it for you, but please give me some time!

http://www.iespana.es/matadoresairsoftclub/granada.htm (Click on : Guia de fabricacion de la granada airsoft 6)

I personally don't use the firecracker shown, I make my own "BANGS" with data found on http://www.xinventions.com/main/pyro/home.htm and some gunpowder from shotgun shells...

Now..how did it save my life? Well, maybe the situation would't get me killed, but is is almost exactly like the one you described, only that the subject was aiming at all of us while we were on the floor. He was about 15-20 feet....as soon as the guy gave me a second I (with my training partner who happened to come with his girlfriend also, for some drinks)slipped one of those and rolled it down to the BG's feet. The bang actually surprised him and the both of us had enough time (seemed like hours but it must have been 2-4seconds) to draw and hit the BG's face with my Baikal , next put the pistol in his mouth -my partner still hitting him- and yell "TE CAGASTE HIJO DE PUTA; TE VOY A VOLAR LA PUTA CABEZA CONCHATUMADRE" (hmm..really explicit spanish languaje..)

The bang was really loud (inside the little store in all Shell's) and my girlfriend complained about her ears hurting for about 3 days..well, it helped me, maybe help you??

Good luck

Rogelio
October 10, 2003, 07:51 PM
Forgot to add...I conceal it using it as a keyring...key loop as glued to one side (with crazyglue). It is plain black and actually draws near zero attention (hey, afterall it is just a film canister!!)

You guys have all kinds of gunpowders back there in the us..maybe some experiments and reviews?? Would really appreciate

Rogelio
October 10, 2003, 08:13 PM
http://www.iespana.es/matadoresairsoftclub/granada/this.jpg

Rogelio
October 10, 2003, 08:14 PM
http://www.iespana.es/matadoresairsoftclub/granada/this2.jpg

Baba Louie
October 10, 2003, 09:59 PM
I learned an interesting phenomena while taking LV MEtro's Citizen Academy class years ago. While using their F.A.T.S. the instructor ran through several scenarios (shoot, no shoot variety) and explained to each of us to shoot where the BG was standing, not where we had seen him last. BG's move you know, especially when they have someone else there to distract you.

Each and everyone of us shot a hole in a car trunk's open lid cause the BG moved to his right (our left). He had been standing in front of the open trunk near the left fender side. He took one step to his right, pulled his gun (we had the electronic laser Beretta in hand, up and ready when his buddy acted to reach in the trunk). Distraction... Shots fired, I'm dead... replay showed my bullet hole (white light) in trunk lid. If he would have stayed still he would have taken the round.

Couple that with an item or two our CCW instructor taught (which for some reason really whizzes certain people off). A. Carry folded money stapled shut in left front pocket. Pull it out if need be and drop it on floor in front of BG. When he bends down to pick it up, ACT. -or- B. Most people carry wallet in right hip pocket, near your CCW (right?). Calmly reach for your wallet, explaining it to BG, left hand up palm showing, moving it away from your body (OK, Wallet, wallet) pull out your surprise, ACT.

I'd try to combine the first (movement to one side or another) with one of the other A -or- B. Cover is good if it's handy.

I like Rogelio's flash bang gee whiz distraction device.

BG has more than one person to cover if he's alone. As long as everyone else in room isn't a frozen stiff sheep at the sight of a gun, any action is better than no action. But you could get shot anyway. He could be "jumping" into a gang set and be required to shoot someone to prove himself anyway.

Having said all that, lotsa Cops have been killed (or so I've heard tell) when they walked into a convenience store in the middle of a holdup (could be an urban legend, but hey, I saw it once on Hill Street Blues so it's gotta be the truth, right?), but then BG's expect them to draw their weapon and shoot to kill... they may not be expecting that from you.

Here's to hoping it never happens to any of us or ones we know and love.

Practice makes perfect.

If you get a chance to take your local dept's Citizen Academy and they have a F.A.T.S. system, its the one in the parking garage with three guys near the open trunk. Highly recommended.

Should probably be moved into another section (S&T), but hey, we're here anyway.

Adios

Rogelio
October 10, 2003, 10:19 PM
I am glad you liked it Baba Luie! It is small, simple, and homemade, yet it works great!

P95Carry
October 10, 2003, 11:10 PM
Rogelio .....

Many thx for the contribution ... this thread has provided some excellent points ... of course as I usually do, I bring up a hypothetical case but - surprising how much input it can get ... what I want in fact, to be able to further refine my thinking. I shall explore this avenue further via links .. tho I have zero ability in Spanish!!

Further thx to all.

Rogelio
October 11, 2003, 12:34 AM
Please, anybody who would be interested in me mailing them a translated version, please feel free to write me to : multistores@terramail.com.pe

(FOR FREE; OBVIOUSLY!!!, don´t let my email give you a bad impresssion!!)

Now....I would love to hear from you guys if you would have any improvements or ideas to make it even better..it has been 100% reliable for me , but maybe make it better??

If you enjoyed reading about "15 feet - and your covered already ......" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!