[Moparmike]

is that considered a straw purchase? Another thread got me to thinking (Face to face in OK) about it. I cant legally buy it from an FFL because of my age, but I can own it here. The guy who is selling it has it from the BATFE that he cant sell it to me, but he can sell it to my mom who can give it to me. He is completly cool with this, but I want to make sure and have everything be legal and not get anyone in trouble.

Any ideas on where to look w/ non-cryptic info? Any advice?

Thanks,

[Geech]

Saw a BATF cartoon which said this was OK. Don't remember the URL, though. Sorry.

[Phantom Warrior]

There shouldn't be any problem with that since your mother is a a direct family member. In general, you can receive a gun as a gift from a direct family member if you are over 18, but under 21. I live in MN and that's how I came to own two Glocks (buy a Glock 23, it's not peer pressure, it's just your turn) and a Phoenix .22 (I know, but my friend bought the one with a sequential serial number, it was...uhhh, just my turn) while still three months shy of my 21st birthday.
Someone who is completely up to date on the NC and federal laws should confirm this before you take it as gospel, but I don't think the laws in NC are substantially different. Since you are not legally prohibited from owning a handgun, merely buying one (that makes sense), and there is the exception for family it shouldn't be a straw purchase. A straw purchase would be buying for someone who can NOT legally own a handgun; felons, non-family 18-20 year olds, etc.

[CasualShooter]

I would suggest caution here. Check that there is no State Law that would prevent you from owning it.

Why can't you buy from an FFL? Is it because of your age or is there a different reason, such as a previous felony?

If your mom buys from a FFL, there is language on the Federal Form she must sign which makes it plain that the purchase is prohibitted if she is buying it for someone other than herself, and that she would be guilty of a felony if she did. There is a question on the form as to whether she is buying it for herself. If she answers "no" then the FFL can't sell it to her.

Why did BATFE advise that the present private owner can't sell it directly to you? You might check their web site. If he can't legally transfer it to you, I suspect that your mother can't, either.

[kbr80]

I am the one selling the Witness to Moparmike. I got my information straight from the ATF. They stated that I could not sell it to Mike due to his age, but that it was perfectly legal for me to sell it to a parent and they in turn give it to him as a gift. Now, please, if anyone out there knows anything more about this, please tell us. I do not want myself, Mike, or his parents ending up on the business end of the ATF.

[Keith]

I gave my son his first rifle at age five.

There was a time when we didn't worry about whether giving our kid a gun would draw the ire of the local Gruppenfuehrer...

Keith

[Kcustom45]

Why can't you buy from an FFL? I cant legally buy it from an FFL because of my age
kbr80

If the ATF told you it was ok, then I would say you don't have anything to worry about.

[cuchulainn]

Sarah Brady didn't get in trouble for doing this with her son.

A search of "Sarah Brady" and "4473" on THR and TFL might be in order.

[Redlg155]

I'd personally be a little cautious here.

As the selller I'd make sure there was a bill of sale made out to the mom. That would cover his hide.

On the buyer side, why can't mom "loan" it to you until your 21st birthday? Technically it would still be hers and any doubts about a "straw" purchase would be nullified due to the time between the sale and the "gift" to you.

As for ATF agents..I don't trust anything they say unless it is in writing. Even then they have been known to issue "opinions" on an issue that was not necessarily law, but rather their translation of the law.

Good Shooting
Red

[Moparmike]

I like the "loan" idea. I too am wary of anything not in writing, hence this post. For some reason, I am faster to trust the advice of total strangers who have been dealing with the BATFE longer than I have, than the "word" of some BATFE agent. Sucks that we have to watch out for the .gov actively trying to screw us over, but such is life nowadays.:( :mad:

[Old Fuff]

If kbr80 is not a Federally Licensed Dealer, and he and the mother of this young man lives in the same state; this is a private sale between two individuals and a Form #4473 is not involved, nor for that matter is the ATF&E.

So long as the mother is not a "prohibited person" (criminal record etc.) Federal law doesn't come into play. You do have to follow State law however. Often times you can get a digest of firearms laws at a Sheriff Office or from the State Police.

Most licensed gun dealers have a book distributed to them by the ATF&E that list the various states and firearms laws therein. I think a dealer might let you read his copy

So far as the law's concerned I think the mother would retain legal title to the gun until the son reached 21. However in other respects it would be "his gun."

[CasualShooter]

Sarah Brady didn't get in trouble for doing this with her son.

Carl Rowan wasn't prosecuted either when he shot a couple skinny dippers in his backyard pool with an illegally owned .22 cal. handgun one night in Washington, D.C. several years ago. He used to be a VERY outspoken antigun columnist for the Washington Post, I think. :uhoh:

Anybody here think common folk would be treated the same? :rolleyes:

[C.R.Sam]

IF...
A form 4473 is involved.
Cert of transferee, 12, a. Are you the actual buyer of the firearm...? etc.
(See important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)

Back of form....Imprtant Notice 1 states it can be bought for another IF IT IS TO BE A BONIFIDE GIFT.


Sam

[Phantom Warrior]

Enough on anti-gun liberals. Everyone knows they are stupid. Answer the poor guy's question. That said...

MoparMike, the following is taken from this link (http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/firearms.htm#age) to the NC Attorney General's Office:

VI. AGE REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PURCHASE AND POSSESSION OF WEAPONS

North Carolina law does not currently address specific age requirements for the purchase of weapons. Rather, they look to the federal standards for such restrictions. Under federal law, at 18 U.S.C. 1922(b)(1), federally licensed gun dealers are prohibited from selling handguns to persons under the age of 21. Further, all other purchasers of shotguns and rifles are required to be at least 18 years old.

North Carolina General Statute 14-269.7 provides that it is a misdemeanor for any person under the age of 18 to possess or carry a handgun. A handgun is defined as a firearm that has a short stock and is designed to be fired by the use of a single hand, or any combination of parts from which such a firearm can be assembled. The punishment for this misdemeanor is imprisonment for up to six months, a fine of up to $500.00, or both. This prohibition does not apply to the following:
(educational purposes, JROTC, etc)

If you are over 18, you can possess a handgun. You just can't buy until you are 21 because that is the requirement of federal law. This is the case in most states. It is the same here in MN. Now that I've gotten up off my lazy butt and tracked down the appropriate NC information I can restate my earlier post with authority:
Your mom CAN purchase the handgun for you. This is not a straw purchase, since you are not prohibited from possessing a handgun (just buying, as mentioned earlier) and your mother is family. And, despite what people have said in other posts, you CAN possess your pistol. You don't have to leave it with your mother. The only restriction on you is regarding purchase, not possession.
I am 20 years old, live in MN, and own 2 Glocks and a Phoenix .22. My dad bought them, but he gave them to me and they are mine. I store them, shoot them, and carry them (just the Glocks). Since the laws in NC are basically the same, you can do the same. HAVE SOME FUN!!!

[CasualShooter]

Moparmike,

I like the "loan" idea.

You are bright and sound pretty level headed. I think you have the right idea if there are any doubts.

If I read your post correctly, it looks like you're in Arkansas, right?

You may find the following link to the Arkansas Code useful:

<http://170.94.58.9/NXT/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=blr:code>

Suggest you check out Title 5 "Criminal Offenses", Chapter 73 "Weapons"

Good shooting! :D

[jimpeel]

If your mom buys the firearm with her money and gifts the firearm to you, it is not a straw purchace as defined by law. However ...

If you give your mom your money and she buys it and "gifts" it to you it is a straw purchase.

Now you could give your mom some money on her birthday as a gift and she could give you a firearm as a gift on your birthday. That would not be considered a straw purchase but might be considered a sham purchase which would fall under the same statutes.

[Moparmike]

5-73-101. Definitions
(2) "Minor" means any person under eighteen (18) years of age;And if they want to call me a minor, I have my mom's permission (which is embarassing to need in the first place:rolleyes: )
5-73-109. Furnishing a deadly weapon to a minor.
(a) A person commits the offense of furnishing a deadly weapon to a minor when he sells, barters, leases, gives, rents, or otherwise furnishes a firearm or other deadly weapon to a minor without the consent of a parent, guardian, or other person responsible for general supervision of his welfare.

According to AR state law, kbr80 selling me the gun is completly legal.:)

Ah Hell, I have to give Mom money for my car insurance (comes out of her account for all the cars) anyway. And if I just happen to notice that she needs half a house payment next month and want to be a nice son... ;)

Gee, I hope this isnt one of those doubleplusgood™ Computer Monitors...

Bastards Always Terrorizing Firearm Enthusiasts (BATFE): :scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny: :scrutiny: (We really need a scrutinizing "All seeing eye" smiley.)

[chaim]

Sucks that we have to watch out for the .gov actively trying to screw us over... Well, I don't think it is that anyone (the people involved in the described situation anyway) is trying to screw anyone. It is more a deal where one hand doesn't know what the other is doing (or saying). The guy you talk to may read the law (and his regulations) and say you are ok. The enforcement guys may have slightly different regs or the regs (or law) might change. All were acting on good faith, you get "screwed" (none of the people are trying to "screw" you, but the system sure as heck did).

If I were you I'd be as careful, and paranoid as possible. Get it in writing from the ATF (that way if one hand isn't communicating well enough with the other, at least you probably won't get too screwed) and/or talk to a lawyer who knows the law in this area. Also, if any of your money (esp. an equal amount to the cost of the gun) goes to your mom, make sure it is her gun and she just lets you use it. If in 2 or 3 years she wants to "sell" it to you hopefully you will be fine (by "sell" I mean you give a token amount of money). Even with that, I'd check with a lawyer though (though I might just be paranoid).

[Sleeping Dog]

Don't forget to check the state rules, too. In MI (as I understand it) a parent can't just give a handgun to a kid without the kid getting a "permit to purchase" (we don't call it registration :)) from the local PD or sheriff. Every handgun transfer needs that bit of paper. Long guns don't require the paper.

Regards.

[greyhound]

I was just about to make a comment like Sleeping Dog's.

Local LEO might be more of a problem than BATFE. Especially if you will be toting the pistol back and forth to the range.

May bit a bit of "Maryland hates guns" in this thought, but if local LEO are not gun friendly, even though the law will eventually prove you right there might be some hassle clearing it up.