All things being equal (bullet weight, manufacturer, etc) why is the 9mm ballistically superior to the 38 special? The 38 special with 125 grain bullet is essentially the same bullet with more powder behind it, so how can it be so far behind the 9mm in terms of velocity and muzzle energy?
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Lightninstrike
April 2, 2009, 05:19 PM
IBTL. Oh lord, another "which round is better" thread. I'm headed for the foxhole. :rolleyes:
nachosgrande
April 2, 2009, 05:23 PM
Not looking for a debate, just a scientific explanation. You can't really debate it because the ballistic numbers speak for themselves. It just doesn't make any sense to me why and I was hoping someone could explain it.
NG VI
April 2, 2009, 05:24 PM
The longer case of the .38 Special was needed for the black powder it was originally designed around. Nowadays it has an awful lot of air in it compared to the 9mm, and also operates at around half the pressure of the 9mm. 9mm is basically optimized for the lighter 115-124 grain bullets, and at the operating pressures of the .38, it can't keep up with the 9mm. It does push heavier bullets better than the 9mm though, which loses out on a lot of needed case volume for propellant when you load it with bullets over 147 grain.
nachosgrande
April 2, 2009, 05:28 PM
^^^^^
Just the answer I was looking for, thank you. Hopefully you can answer one more. Since the cartridge is filled with air, why do I pay $10 more per 100 of WWB than I do for 9mm?
ArmedBear
April 2, 2009, 05:38 PM
Brass costs more than air?:D
9mm brass is probably produced in larger quantities, too, since it's a very common cartridge worldwide.
.38 Special is a wonderful round for reloading, though. What are you doing with all that once-fired Winchester brass? I hope you're not just throwing it away!
nachosgrande
April 2, 2009, 05:41 PM
"What are you doing with all that once-fired Winchester brass? I hope you're not just throwing it away!"
There's always somebody in the next lane willing to take it off my hands. I'd actually love to learn reloading, not just for the cost savings, but to have that skill and acquire hands on knowledge of the ammunition I'm shooting. Just haven't gotten around to it yet.
Mr. T
April 2, 2009, 05:53 PM
First off I would like to say this is my opinion and not based on any fact that I possess or know of; I believe the 9mm is cheaper than the .38 special due to the simple fact of Volume. There are more 9mm rounds being produced and used in the market place than there are .38 special. The 9mm round is more of a "global" round, where the .38 special is more of a "national" round. NATO based it's sidearm around the 9mm as well as many police organizations around the world. The civilian market also has many more 9mm handgun rounds being used than any other because of lower recoil and the lower cost of the round as well. I would also point out the comparison of the cost of the 5.56 round and even the .308 round compared to the 30.06 or the .300 win mag or the .338 win or Lapua rounds as an example to ponder. Once the military and or NATO adopts a particular "current use" round it seems to me to that the volume of production goes up for that particular round and thus the prices tend to drop. The .38 special round, one previously favored by police has been replaced by other, more effective rounds and thus the volume of production has decreased and thus the common usage of that round subsequently decreases as well. However, the .38 special in it's own right has not gone the way of the dodo, because it is still used a fair amount by civilians for self defense or target practice, because many handguns out there loaded for this particular caliber are designed for conceal carry and to be honest it can still do the job it was designed for albeit there are other more effective rounds in existence. Just my two cents worth.
ArmedBear
April 2, 2009, 05:54 PM
I started rather recently.
Well, that's not exactly accurate: I learned on black powder guns including revolvers. You reload every time you shoot a round (except that there's no brass to clean and resize).
And I've reloaded shotshells for a while.
I just started reloading brass regularly. It's fun and intrinsically rewarding. I've learned a lot about shooting and how things really work, and I can shoot my .44 Magnum, both because I can load it to my liking, and because it doesn't keep me from making the house payment.:)
AK103K
April 2, 2009, 06:03 PM
Help me understand why 9mm is better than 38 special
This is a no brainer. 17-20 rounds in the gun vs 5-8.
Not to mention almost 357MAG power out of +P+ 9mm.
NG VI
April 2, 2009, 06:07 PM
9mm brass is probably produced in larger quantities, too, since it's a very common cartridge worldwide.
That's what I believe is the reason as well.
Mr. T
April 2, 2009, 06:14 PM
I saw your response, and I just wanted to ask a question to a quote you have posted in your reply:
"The 2nd amendment is a right only if you use a gun to defend your state. nothing in there about self defence whatsoever. That's why all gun control laws are legal."
Isn't my property or even my person considered part of the "State", hence defense of either would be considered defence of the "State"?:confused:
9MM Luger, 124 gr. JHP/XTP 90242
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd
1110/339 1030/292 971/259
Barrel Length (inches)
4"
9MM Luger, 147 gr. JHP/XTP 90282
Velocity (fps) / Energy (ft-lbs)
Muzzle 50 yd 100 yd
975/310 935/285 899/264
Barrel Length (inches)
4
NG VI
April 2, 2009, 06:37 PM
oh, that's something a dingbat in a totally different forum stated once. Just wanted to let everyone know what sort of brain trust we are up against.
And they are taken as seriously or more seriously than we are in many arenas. Rocky Mountain oysters, but that's the way it is.
d2wing
April 2, 2009, 06:38 PM
Another tidbit is that the .38 was designed back in the days of break action revolvers. It is loaded to much lower pressure for liability reasons in case someone wants to shoot in in an older or cheap weapon. If you have a modern weapon especially a .357 you can shoot +p loads.
catspa
April 2, 2009, 06:44 PM
Perhaps I could help you understand why the .38 is better than the 9mm instead.
1) I have revolvers chambered for it - I have no 9mm semi-autos.
2) A .38 revolver doesn't short-stroke, stovepipe, or fail to feed. When you load .38's in the cylinder, there they are.
3) Flexibility. My revolvers will fire a .38 round with any bullet nose shape, seated flush or way out, any reasonable powder charge, wax, plastic, as long as I can fit it in the cylinder, it'll fire. Also, .357 revolvers will also fire .38's. Can you fire 9mm ammo out of a .40?
4) 6 rounds is plenty enough if you hit what you aim for.
5) .38 rounds fit perfect in the loops of my leather cartridge belt. 9mm rounds always slip through and fall out.
All that said, I'll stand and fight for your right to choose a 9, just now you know why the .38 is better.
Parker, prepared to withstand abuse...
Claude Clay
April 2, 2009, 06:44 PM
dingbats fear the 38
snips hide from 9mm
357 mag for werewolves and
327 fed for their offsprung [silvertips, of course]
whats above this is pretty much how it is.......
Steve C
April 2, 2009, 07:52 PM
why is the 9mm ballistically superior to the 38 special?
The .38 spl operates at a maximum standard industry chamber pressure of 17,000 psi and +P is 18,500 psi. The 9mm operates at a standard industry pressure of 35,000 psi and +P at 38,500 psi.
Chamber pressure limits the amount of velocity attainable from the .38 spl. The case size and volume limits the 9mm to a narrower range of usable bullet weights and velocities.
The .357 magnum which operates at a maximum pressure of 35,000 psi is essentially the magnum version of the .38 spl designed for stronger and generally larger pistols can match or exceed the 9mm due to its larger case volume and similar pressure.
Superlite27
April 2, 2009, 08:40 PM
It would be easier to just buy a .45
That way, you wouldn't have to worry about how effective your bullets are.
searcher451
April 2, 2009, 08:42 PM
You say tomato and I say ... potato, I guess. The bottom line is that both of them will get the job done, and that's all that matters in the long and the short of it. But I would add that if you are a range rat and like to shoot regularly, you'll spend less on 9mm than you will on .38, all else being equal -- and given a fair shot at finding ammo of any stripe available when you go out to buy it these days. Good luck with that. :mad:
Deanimator
April 2, 2009, 11:11 PM
Not better, just different.
I like heavy bullets. Try to put a 158gr. bullet in a 9x19mm case, nevermind a 200gr.
Bezoar
April 3, 2009, 12:13 AM
The 9mm round is superior to 38 special in the following reasons.
First, the 9mm is a standard cartridge for NATO. And as a result, nato countries can bumm it off of america and have no issue of it working in their weapons.
Secondly, the 9mm is superior because the semi automatic handgun is not normally able to use a wide range of bullet types and bullet materials, nor a wide range of bullet velocities.
As a result, the 38 special that can fire thousands of rounds of black powder cartridges, wad cutters,lrn, roundball, and high end hollowpoints is just INFERIOR.
Notice that the ability to use almost anything in your gun is "bad"?
20nickels
April 6, 2009, 11:56 PM
The 9mm is the perfect defnsive caliber really. It is lightweight, powerfull with modern HP's and high capacity. Just buy a quality firearm to eat them.
That being said I do not own a 9mm, but have a few .38's/.357's. I am not a police officer and have zero possiblilty of getting into drwn out firefights with a polymer sidearm.
The .38 is an extemely versitile round for wilderness carry, target shooting, and personal defense with a huge range of available boolits and boolit weights. 9mm can easily be duplicated in a .357 gun as well as powderpuff target wadcutters and nuclear magnum rds. I do not feel undergunned at all with .38 +P. Regular old standard pressure .38's are not my 1st defense choice however.
oneounceload
April 7, 2009, 12:11 AM
The 38 special with 125 grain bullet is essentially the same bullet with more powder behind it, so how can it be so far behind the 9mm in terms of velocity and muzzle energy?
Your first assumption here is incorrect to start with - in fact they usually have LESS powder behind them....9mm is loaded to higher pressures as previously mentioned
The 9 is more efficient in a smaller package with equivalent bullets
scythefwd
April 7, 2009, 01:11 AM
Not to mention almost 357MAG power out of +P+ 9mm.
.38sp +p+ also can obtain 357 mag levels. There are some less efficient loads for the .357mag that are actually less powerful than some of the more efficient loadings for the .38 sp (no +P or +P+) while being pretty much at the max allowed saami pressures for their respective calibers. This is according to load data from Modern Reloading second edition. I don't have to book here right now to pull out examples, but for the same bullet weight, a max load for the least 2-3 efficient .357 mag rounds are slower (and therefore have less muzzle energy) than the most efficient max loadings for the .38sp by almost 180 fps.
kmrcstintn
April 7, 2009, 02:15 AM
aveage 9mm duty sized pistol goes bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang+another bang in the barrel before reloading (unless you live in a socialist state then it's bangx10+another bang in the barrel) :p
average .38 spl duty sized revolver goes bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang before reloading :D
average sized .357 mag duty sized revolver goes BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM before reloading :evil:
or I can spice things up a bit by loading a .357 mag revolver to go pop-bang-BOOM-pop-bang-BOOM (a.38 spl blank, a .38 spl cartridge, and a .357 mag cartridge) :D
nothing superior or inferior about any one of them :)
cleetus03
April 7, 2009, 09:05 PM
Well.38 special is more or less the 9mm equivalent in a revolver, and likewise 9mm is the equivalent of a .38 in a autoloader. Barrel length will ultimately decide which one will perform better in ballistics in my opinion.
DeepSouth
April 7, 2009, 09:12 PM
It would be easier to just buy a .45
That way, you wouldn't have to worry about how effective your bullets are.
I'll second that one!
Fleetwood_Captain
April 7, 2009, 09:32 PM
Well.38 special is more or less the 9mm equivalent in a revolver, and likewise 9mm is the equivalent of a .38 in a autoloader. Barrel length will ultimately decide which one will perform better in ballistics in my opinion.
I'll second that one.
If the 9mm is superior to the .38 special, then why haven't 9mm revolvers found the same success that .45 acp revolvers have?
Indifferent
April 8, 2009, 01:24 AM
I would buy a 9mm or 45acp in a snub nose j frame concealed hammer model. I haven't seen one.
Now Reloading a 38?
How heavy of a bullet can you load?
And what does that do?
Brian Dale
April 8, 2009, 05:40 AM
They both work; choose the kind that comes in a gun that fits your hand and that you can shoot well. :)
All things being equal (bullet weight, manufacturer, etc) why is the 9mm ballistically superior to the 38 special?
Now that was the original question. Note that it has to do with ballistics. It does not take up usefulness or performance in a revolver compared to a pistol, or what works best out of a J frame, etc. it was about ballistics. The op used the word "superior" and that has apparently confused some posters so that they thought the question was about something else.
As others have said the 9mm operates at higher pressures than the .38 Spl. This provides it with a higher velocity and more energy than the .38 Spl. Most folks who can read ballistics tables figure this means it has an edge on the .38 Spl. Or in other words it is a ballistically superior more powerful round. A fella can argue that it's not but a fella can also be wrong.
The op also says "...all things being equal..." but they are not. The .38 Spl. can use heavier bullets than the 9mm can. The case capacity of the .38 can also be maximized to bring it close to what the 9mm in some of it's standard velocity loads can do thus narrowing the gap. In terms of terminal effectiveness making them about the same. But most ammo manufacturers don't do this because of fears of overpressure loads in older guns and liability and because we have the .357 Magnum.
The reason more revolvers aren't chambered in the 9mm is because we have the .357 Magnum which easily beats the 9mm in performance from a wheelgun.
tipoc
Dravur
April 8, 2009, 10:20 AM
1) I have revolvers chambered for it - I have no 9mm semi-autos.
I have both, doesn't make one better....
3) Flexibility. My revolvers will fire a .38 round with any bullet nose shape, seated flush or way out, any reasonable powder charge, wax, plastic, as long as I can fit it in the cylinder, it'll fire. Also, .357 revolvers will also fire .38's. Can you fire 9mm ammo out of a .40?
Can you fire your .38s out of a .44 magnum?
4) 6 rounds is plenty enough if you hit what you aim for.
unless there is more than one threat or you hit them in non threatening areas. Then you have a nifty club to beat on them with. Also, reloading is far faster with an auto.
5) .38 rounds fit perfect in the loops of my leather cartridge belt. 9mm rounds always slip through and fall out
Thats why I keep my 9mm ammo in magazines. Much more convenient than loose rounds.
KBintheSLC
April 8, 2009, 03:43 PM
The 38 special with 125 grain bullet is essentially the same bullet with more powder behind it, so how can it be so far behind the 9mm in terms of velocity and muzzle energy?
Its merely about the 9mm being a much higher pressure round. However, saying it is "better" is pretty subjective. I assume that in a real world "taste test", the bad guy won't be able to tell the difference. Pick the type of gun you like, and go with it. Personally, I have both.
...
W L Johnson
April 8, 2009, 04:03 PM
Brian Dale: Give me an ax, I have phobia with snakes, but I don't hate them.
silverbullet1976
April 9, 2009, 03:02 AM
The .38 doesn't use the same propellant as the 9mm so it doesn't generate the same velocity. If you are looking at terminal ballistics, then the 9 is "superior". If you take two identical bullets and speed one up, it will do more damage. But superiority is relative. A +P 158 gr .38 special lead semi-wadcutter hollow point will almost always expand in human tissue (enough bad guys have been dropped with that round to prove that, both from snubbies and service size). Some 9mm hp's will go right through you, thus defeating the purpose of a defensive round. Some .38's will too. Others in both calibers won't. What defines a good round (especially hollow point) is will it expand, is it heavy and fast enough to reach vital organs, and can you hit what you're aiming at. I have no problem relying on a .38 special, or a 9mm. One may be faster, but they'll both kill ya deader than hell. And they're both superior to having nothing.
catspa
April 9, 2009, 08:29 PM
Dravur:Can you fire your .38s out of a .44 magnum?
No. What I should have asked is, does the 9mm have a higher performance round of the same caliber, what the .357 is to the .38sp, which both can be fired out of the same gun?
My tantrum was primarily directed toward the OP's title, that the 9 is better than the .38, which I don't agree with. I will, however, stand and fight for his right to say so.
Parker
tipoc
April 9, 2009, 09:38 PM
Would anyone here have a problem saying that ballisticaly the .357 beats out the .38 Spl.? If we speak of the bullet weight, velocity and energy of a round we are speaking of it's ballistics. Ballisticaly the .357 is superior to the .38 Spl.
Well so is the 9mm. Ballisticaly it is a more powerful round. It is superior ballisticaly to the .38 Spl. Just a statement of fact.
No. What I should have asked is, does the 9mm have a higher performance round of the same caliber, what the .357 is to the .38sp, which both can be fired out of the same gun?
No it does not.
To get that you have to go to other rounds like the .38 Super or the 9x23 Winchester. A 9mm gun can have switch barrels made for it in either of these calibers.
tipoc
Larry Burchfield
April 10, 2009, 07:10 PM
This is my first post here but I'm going to jump in with both feet. I perfer the 38 over the 9 because I 'm a wheel gun fan and the ammo that is factory loaded these days is very good for concealed carry weapons.
As most of you know the auto guns are all subject to jam but a wheel gun will stay with you through thick and thin.
The 9 got lost of hype years ago because of their magazine capicity.
MHO
Larry Burchfield
Seabees/RVN 67/68/69
DAV
Brian Dale
April 10, 2009, 07:16 PM
Welcome to THR, Larry, and thank you for your service.
riverdog
April 10, 2009, 07:25 PM
I have had a S&W revolver cylinder lock up and it could not be fixed in the field. Revolvers are not jam-proof and when they do lock up there's no tap-rack-bang drill to fix them -- rare, but it can happen.
Arcticfox
April 10, 2009, 07:35 PM
average .38 spl duty sized revolver goes bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-bang before reloading
average sized .357 mag duty sized revolver goes BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM before reloading
or I can spice things up a bit by loading a .357 mag revolver to go pop-bang-BOOM-pop-bang-BOOM (a.38 spl blank, a .38 spl cartridge, and a .357 mag cartridge
LMAO, I almost spit coffee on the keyboard!
Arcticfox
April 10, 2009, 07:48 PM
I have had a S&W revolver cylinder lock up and it could not be fixed in the field. Revolvers are not jam-proof and when they do lock up there's no tap-rack-bang drill to fix them -- rare, but it can happen.
In that stuation, a New York reload is in order.
Larry Burchfield
April 10, 2009, 07:52 PM
Riverdog
Yes, they will jam-up but I don't think the do it as often as an Auto. If you think not go to a IPSC match and watch the guys shooting the pump action auto. The only ones that don't seem to jam are the glocks.
I've had my revolvers jam up one time and that was from shooting reloads and I forgot to put any powder in the case. As I have alsways said "Ain't nothing idiot proof".
Most factory ammo has a little cement to help hold the bullet along with the crimp.
And besides you don't have to pick your brass up off of the ground like you do with an Automatic. I'm to old for that any more.
Larry Burchfield
Seabees/RVN 67/68/69
DAV
riverdog
April 10, 2009, 08:13 PM
Like I said, revolver lock-ups are rare -- that said, my 1911's and Glocks all run and if they don't they get fixed or tossed. It's usually a magazine issue and bad mags are designated for range use only and used for failure drills.
BTW, 9mm all day over .38 Spl. I really like 9mm 147 gr JHP's.
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