[45R]

Just curious if anyone is California has ordered Kel Tecs .223 rifle

[larryw]

I have one on order through my FFL. No word on ETA.

[lunde]

Mine is coming in the same order as Larry's. :D

[45R]

:) You guys are killen me :)

PM me with the details or shoot me an email when you get your hands on one. I'm curious as to how they perform, feel and at that good stuff.

Thanks guys

45R

[Sven]

larryw and lunde: You ordered and didn't let me jump on the bandwagon? Is it too late to add one more to that order?

;)

-s

[larryw]

After listening to you whine about us driving you to the poor house, Ken and I got together and, I openly admit it, CONSPIRED to keep you out of the loop. :neener:

Give Dmitriy a call, he'll add you to the list of people who aren't getting one anytime soon.

[Slingster]

I thought Kel-Tec wasn't selling any product in California these days. Has that changed?

[Sven]

Called Dmitriy and I'm now on the list...

...don't worry about the poor house, guys. As soon as I buy a house here, THEN I will be in the poor house.

-s

[lunde]

:D

[Prof]

I'm also interested in how this rifle shakes out (and if we can, in fact, order it here in California). Please give us an update on this thread when you recieve yours! Thanks!

[larryw]

Kel-Tec may not be selling into CA, but lots of resellers and distributors are. My FFL, the one ordering the gun for sven, lunde and myself checked with the CADOJ and it was OK.

[Sven]

This is excellent news.

[45R]

Update..... :)

[Sven]

Oh, you'll hear about it when it happens. Trust me.

[45R]

The wait is killing me. I'm trying to figure out my next .223 purchase. I have narrowed it down to the Mini or a SU16. I had a chance to shoot a FAB10 yesturday. It was nice and accurate but as my GF puts it .....blahhhhhhhh!


:)

[lunde]

My Cooper Arms M21 MTV in .223 is quite a shooter. It looks nice, too.

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/cooper-m21-mtv-223-8.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/cooper-m21-mtv-223-6.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/cooper-m21-mtv-223-2.jpg

[Sven]

lunde: do bring that on Friday. Looking forward to testing that M118LR.

[45R]

I finally got a chance to handle one of the SU16s yesturday! First impression is that there is alot of plastic. It didnt bother me too much. The rear sight was plastic and non adjustable. The intergrated Bipod looked funny but didnt seem to rattle. The only metal parts on the gun were the barrel and bolt. Not bad if this baby is around 2-3MOA and reliable I'll have to get one and top it with a red dot.

[Black Majik]

The fellow Cali board is currently having a discussion right now on the SU-16

http://calguns.net/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=888602736&f=332609466&m=1126084824

I'm curious how this thing performs too!:)

[lunde]

My dealer received my SU-16 on the 19th, so theoretically, if my dealer is available tomorrow, the 29th, I'll pick mine up them. The EOTech holographic sight that I ordered for it comes a week later.

[artherd]

I'm seriously considering one.

Capability to carry 20rds in the stock is really slick, as is the folding, uh, 'lower' I guess. How quick is it to bring back into action?

Any word on how they shoot? Anybody?

[Sven]

Mine shipped out today, should be here in a few days, then 10 days to 'cool off' before I pick it up.

/sarcasm on

Lord knows what kind of senseless acts I would perform if I got the gun the day I purchased it.... even though I have 10 other firearms at my disposal.

/sarcasm off

[lunde]

Sven, you wrote:Mine shipped out today, should be here in a few days, then 10 days to 'cool off' before I pick it up.:D

The pickup date for my SU-16 was today (the 29th), but I need to arrange a day this week when I can drive to SSF to pick it up, along with my CZ 75 P-01 pistol whose ten-day waiting period ended on the 25th.

[45R]

:) Hummmm Pictures


Pictures :)

[Duke of Lawnchair]

Yes!

Pictures!

[Sven]

http://www.kel-tec.com/images/SU-163viewsmerged.jpg

[El Rojo]

That is very interesting. I think I like my FAB-10.

[larryw]

Ken just stopped by on the way home from the FFL to show me his SU-16. I must say I'm impressed. Gun was solid, points very well. LOP may be a bit long for the mall ninjas, but I found it to shoulder perfectly; cheek weld was perfect for me.

Sights aren't as bad as I thought, sure you won't win Camp Perry with them, but they're serviceable (durability TBD). Gun screams for a Red Dot.

Trigger was a pleasant surprise, light short take-up, teeny-tiny bit of creep and a good crisp let off. Perhaps 6#. Didn't test reset. Bolt stays open on last shot.

Mags look very durable and fit nicely in the butt stock. Gun folds down nicely (26 1/2" x 7 1/2"). Polymer butt, receiver and fore end is stiff and nicely molded. Fore end folds down to make the bipod legs, which are about 10" long, not as sturdy as a Harris, but are serviceable.

Looking forward to getting mine; will post a range report ASAP.

[lunde]

:D

All I need now is my EOTech holographic sight, which should get here a week from today...

[TonyRumore]

I shot one for the first time last week. It ran perfectly on FMJ, but had problems digesting hollow points. The rounds would feed too low and hang up on the bottem edge of the barrel extension.

[FrankGrimeyGrimes]

Re: SU-16 Choking on HPs

The same thing happened with my SU-16 (No. 01XX). FMJs worked fine from the KT mags, but I also experienced feed problems from normally dependable Bushy (New Design) 10rd mags and Royal Ordnance SA80 30rd mags.

I contacted KT told them of the problems, they told me to send it back to them so their gunsmiths could take a look at it. I sent it out to KT (along with my mags), and got it back within a little over a week. KT "polished" the feed ramps and all is fine now with all mags I own (KTs, Bushy 10-rd, SA80 & USGI 30rd), and with the HP rounds.

Considering the the new design and the work-up of production, I wasn't all too upset with my SU-16's initial problems. KT seemed to be very interested with my input as an eary owner and user of the piece, and I hope my experience will further the quality and dependability of the SU-16 as it ramps up production. KT also was quick to solve the problem and proof test the fix without modifying my magazines.

As for the rifle itself, previous reports are correct, it is a fun and accurate piece that has a load of potential (lower-priced, fixed stock version) as an affordable (<$450) .223 caliber "Homeland Defense" (or target, truck, pack, etc.) gun.

[Sven]

Good report - thanks for the info. Gentlemen, start your (Dremel) engines! ;) ;)

-sven, stocked up on Fitz

[45R]

Sven stay away from the Dremel!!! :)

[lunde]

The EOTech sight arrived today, as expected. I bought the model that uses AA battteries (#512.A65). The sight is the same length as the SU-16's Picatinny rail, so I had to remove the factory rear sight (it was simply a matter of using a punch to push out the polymer lockbar, then slide the rear sight off of the Picatinny rail). Attached is a teaser photo. The rest of the photos will be live by morning. It will have its first range session this Friday.

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=709569

[Sven]

That is killer. Can't wait to see the breakdown pics.

[lunde]

Here are the rest of the photos I took, in some meaningful order...

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/su16-7.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/su16-5.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/su16-4.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/su16-1.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/su16-2.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/su16-3.jpg

[Sven]

I gotta say, it looks pretty damn cool.

Can we get a shot with the bipod out?

[45R]

Those are pretty nice pictures Lunde!!! :) I'm looking forward to the range report.

[larryw]

Ken took the SU-16 out to the range today; I'll let him post a complete report. He did let me shoot it a bit and it felt nice, trigger was crisp and the trigger reset was a pleasant surprise. And no annoying "sproing" while firing. :D

I am very impressed with the function and accuracy of the gun.

[lunde]

Range report time...

I got to the range (Sunnyvale Rod & Gun Club) at about 1PM or so. Larry was already there playing with his M1A. I set up a B-8 target at 50 yards at the cease-fire. I put five or so rounds downrange, but never got onto paper. Larry was spotting next to me. I then set the target at 25 yards, and found that it was shooting high. A couple of adjustments to the EOTech sight, and we were in business. Keep in mind that it was now misting, with some nasty wind. At one point, I lost my target due to the wind. I finally set up another B-8 target, along with a second Shoot-N-See bullseye, put right above, at 100 yards. Bullets aimed at the bottom bullseye were striking the upper bullseye, so another adjustment or two was made on the EOTech. Once it was dialed in, almost all of the shots were well within the 10-ring. For me, this is nice, considering that I am using a non-magnifying sight and in crappy weather conditions. I am sure that this rifle can do much better. By the time I left the range, right after 2:30PM or so, the mist had turned into what most people would call rain.

The bipod worked very well. That's all I used in terms of a rest. I brought my bolt-action rifle rests, but they stayed in the trunk of my car. The rifle functioned flawlessly. The bolt locked open when each magazine was empty. I used only the Kel-Tec 10-round magazines that came with the rifle. I brought along a 30-round Orlite and a 30-round steel mag, but never had a chance to use them. The Orlite mag will not fit into the stock, due to the lip at the base of the mag. The 30-round steel mag, following the specs of the GI mags, will fit into the stock.

In all, 75 rounds were shot through the rifle. 35 were 50gr V-Max loaded by Black Hills. 40 were 55gr FMJs from a Winchester ValuePack. Larry had a chance to put a few rounds downrange. I wish Sven were there. He would have enjoyed it.

My impression is that this is a mighty fine rifle. Its workmanship is not shabby at all. When the bipod is folded, the resulting forend is solid, and doesn't rattle or otherwise move. I am also impressed with the EOTech holographic sight. It was a wise decision to mount it to this rifle.

I am looking forward to the next range session with this rifle.

[45R]

Lunde-
Sounds like the rifle is a keeper. Thanks a bunch for the range report! The EOtech really makes that rifle!!

Glad you enjoy the rifle. Looks like its time to order one.

45R

[FireControlman]

Hello. Nice thread. I've been waiting for a report on this rifle. I just found out Tuan's guns carries them. What is the average price for one of these?

[Sven]

> I wish Sven were there.

Me too - I was in triage mode at work... around 1PM looked up into the hills and saw that mist and wondered how it was affecting you. T-minus 10 days or so until I get my SU-16 in my hands. the EOTech sounds compelling - might follow suit.

[lunde]

I am going to try to make it to the range on Friday, with my SU-16. I hope you can make it. I plan to get there at 9AM sharp. I have only 50gr V-Max (Black Hills), and they function 100% in the SU-16. Hopefully the weather will be a bit better than yesterday.

I am going to be bringing a different type of target next time, specifically the Hill 23P with five bullseyes. Last time, I placed the "Shoot-N-See" bullseye far to close to the B-8 bullseye that it was somewhat difficult to distinguish (in terms of centering the 1MOA target dot of the sight on the bullseye) the two at 100 yards using the EOTech sight.

[Bainx]

Thanks for the field report. I'm starting to lick my chops for one of these.

Welcome aboard, FireControlman!:)

[lunde]

Here's a couple more photos, showing the front sight assembly...

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/su16-9.jpg

http://www.praxagora.com/lunde/photos/su16-10.jpg

[JohnKSa]

I've handled but not shot one of these rifles.

When/if I get one, the front sight is going to have to come OFF.

You're right, the rifle screams for a red-dot.

Still, I wish someone would put something a little more precise on one so we could get some indications of the rifle's accuracy.

[BamBam-31]

Dr. Lunde,

Could you also see if the rifle strings vertically when the barrel's hot? My Mini-14 shoots accurately enough, until the barrel heats up, that is. Then things go south, literally.

The SU-16 doesn't look to have a heavy barrel, either. Have you been slow firing, allowing the barrel time to cool between shots?

Either way, very nice looking rifle. Congrats! :)

[lunde]

Other than required cease fires, I wasn't letting the barrel cool between shots.

From what I saw through the spotting scope, the rifles wasn't stringing vertically. I did a couple 10-round groups, both to the same bullseye, and almost all of the rounds, if not all of the rounds, were in the 10-ring of the B-8 target at 100 yards. The shape of the group was a bit more oval than round, being a tad wider than tall. This would suggest that it is not stringing vertically.

I read another review of the SU-16 in which there was a claim that it performed much better than the Mini-14 when the barrel was hot. My experience, though limited due to having a single range session, seems to reflect that.

The barrel is the heaviest under the forearm.

[Sven]

Note that there is a third party starting work on replacement front sight assembly/muzzle brake that will offer compatibility with AR-15 front sights. There are tons of rail-mounted rear sights for the AR, no?

[larryw]

I don't know if the current aftermarket AR sights will be properly regulated to match the height of the SU-16's rail. I do know that one person who's working on a SU-16 mount to accept the AR front sight is also looking into a rear mount to accept the A2.

[Psssniper]

Any more range reports???

[DrDremel]

I must be the only guy that was not impressed. A friend bought one and we took it to the range. The biod is flimsy at best, the sights are up to paintball standards and the takedown pin is not built to last. This is not a .32 and people are going to actually want to shoot their rifle more than once to see if it works. If I had to choose between this rifle and any other .223, this one would be dead last.

[lunde]

Being (trapped) in California, our options are severely limited, and the Kel-Tec offering is the only semi-auto .223 available that accepts AR-15 mags. Sure, there are some things that I'd like to change on the SU-16, such as the sights (putting the EOTech on it solves that), having the bipod lock in the extended position (or at least some detent that keeps it open), and maybe having the Picatinny rail be steel (as opposed to being part of the polymer receiver). The Bipod worked well for me, and the fact that it doesn't move or otherwise rattle when folded is a big plus, which means that if you don't want to use the bipod, simply don't deploy it. The polymer used for the receiver seems to be very strong and durable. I am actually not concerned about the Picatinny rail being part of the receiver, as it appears to be durable. Only time will tell how truly durable these things are. For $500, it seems like a good rifle, especially for those in California.

[BamBam-31]

Thanks, Doc. I think I'll be about $500 poorer now....

[VictorLouis]

Is the entire front sight of plastic, or just the blade/post within the aperture? What keeps it upright, or prevents it from twisting around the barrel?

If it's ALL plastic, does it look like it could sustain even a minor bump in the field.:eek: Ditto the rear?

Is the bolt riding on any sort of steel insert in the receiver, or steel on plastic?

There does not appear to be any sort of manual bolt-release/hold-open, correct?

Where is the recoil spring located?

Thanks!

[lunde]

VictorLouis, you wrote:Just how many factory 10rd. mags come with it?Two. Additional mags are $15 a pop fro Kel-Tec. They seem to be well made.
Is the entire front sight of plastic, or just the blade/post within the aperture?The front sight assembly is made of polymer.
What keeps it upright, or prevents it from twisting around the barrel?Apparently, it's pressed in place and loc-tited.
If it's ALL plastic, does it look like it could sustain even a minor bump in the field.Dunno. Given that it's loc-tited in place, it would probably break before it moves.
Ditto the rear?Although it's small and made of polymer, it seems to be durable.
Is the bolt riding on any sort of steel insert in the receiver, or steel on plastic?Steel on polymer. The inserts are near the front of the upper receiver, for the barrel.
There does not appear to be any sort of manual bolt-release/hold-open, correct?Correct. I stick a finger into the magazine well to engage the hold-open, which is normally engaged by the magazine follower when the magazine is empty. There is no external bolt release, though.
Where is the recoil spring located?Inside of the gas tube, which rides over the barrel.

[VictorLouis]

I wish everyone could be so detailed in their responses.:D

I know how hesitant we in the gun community were with Glocks and plastic. I hope the concerns are unfounded when it comes to the centerfire rifle, also.:cool:

[artherd]

This almost seems like the rifle that Glock may have built.

But not coming from Glock, I'm waiting to see on it's reliability/durability.


Wonder if a 16" bbl version would work? I'm un-intrested in a front sight, an EOtech takes care of that.


Damn I wish we were allowed ARs in the PRK (it's absolute nonsence, the SU-16 and the AR-15 are practically the same, AR's just probally fair bit more rugged, more accurate, and has huge commonality of parts. Aargh!)

[Sven]

Got mine last night - how the heck did you guys get the assembly pin in? :confused: The pin on mine (SN #008X) got about 90% in, but pushing it through the other side just wasn't going to happen.

[45R]

Good report - thanks for the info. Gentlemen, start your (Dremel) engines!

Think you answered your own question in a previous post :D

Just kidden. Hope you figure out how to get that pin in!!

[larryw]

Sven, There's a spring clip that fits into small grooves on both sides of the pin to keep it in place: push HARDER. If all else fails, bring it by and I'll break it for you. :D

[Sven]

I pushed with all of my weight (210 pounds). Looks like the pin is slightly out of alignment on the other side - almost as if I need to close the rifle a slight bit more for it to fit. That retaining spring is out of the way, Larry, I checked that.

I heard that an assembly pin fell out of an SU-16 at the SHOT show last year - I guess this is what happens when you get mad at the engineers for having a too small pin on Rev 1...

... seriously considering the pin someone mentioned on ktrange.com - here is the thread:

http://www.ktrange.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=176

I removed the factory pin and replaced it with a 1/4" x 1-1/4" Cotterless Hitch Pin (available for about 75 cents at Home Depot or Lowes). It is a perfect fit and has the ring attached which allows easy removal and replacement. I'll definitely keep the factory pin for regular use, but this alternative makes easy work when folding and extending the rifle frequently. You can even use it as the "punch" necessary to remove and replace the factory pin.

And here is their pin:

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/su16_pin.jpg

[larryw]

Two words (three actually): hammer and punch. :neener:

[Sven]

OK I got it together. SWEET.

Went in from the other side, and used the plastic end of a screwdriver to get some leverage. The action feels surprisingly smooth when hand-cycling the bolt. Trigger break is relatively crisp (better than the Mini14) but the reset is a bit 'odd'. Nothing I can't learn.

-

Obligatory pics - WARNING: I'm no Lunde or Volk.

Below is a picture of the SU-16 next to a Mini-14. This is the current "plinker to beat" in .223 - at least here in "post-ban" California. Note longer buttpad to trigger distance on SU-16 - definitely noticable when you shoulder the rifle:


http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/su-16_mini-14_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/su-16_mini-14.jpg)

Integral bipod - as previously noted - does not rattle when attached. A little tough to get it off unless both sides detach simultaneously, but it's easy to learn. Watch your fingers when you are putting it back on.


http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/bipod_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/bipod.jpg)

A view to a kill (of a semi-plastic guitar, anyhow):


http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/sights_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/sights.jpg)

Thinking about a Zeiss Z-Point on the rail - got a solar cell on top, how cool is that? Costs almost as much as the SU-16, too.

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/zpoint.jpg

This old Colt 20 Rounder stashes securely in the buttstock (or two SU-16 mags fit perfectly)


http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/magstash_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/magstash.jpg)

You gotta admit, that barrel is just SCREAMING to be cut down to 16.5" or so.


http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/folded_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/folded.jpg)

One for my liberal neighbors to stay up at night worrying about... esp. after the barrel is trimmed down and I get a slightly larger backpack:


http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/backpack_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/backpack.jpg)

Fit and finish is what I would expect for what I paid ($440 + FFL fees), a bit of flashing here and there on the plastic, no big deal. I love my P32, and I'm starting to believe I'm going to love the SU-16 as well - time will tell.

[DJ E.]

Sven-How hard do you think it would be to cut down the stock around 3/4-1"?

[Sven]

I dunno - I'm not qualified to cut down a barrel and would outsource this. Main concerns are:

1) Will the gas system be affected adversely by this?
2) Would you be comfortable without a front sight on there?

[DJ E.]

Hehe, sorry...I was talking more of shortening the LOP. Thanks.

[larryw]

There really isn't an easy way to shorten the LOP as the stock is hollow inside and the bosses that screw the two halves together are right at the end of the stock. Even the rubber buttplate is very thin, so no gains there.

It could be done, but would requre adding material at the end to stiffen and other tricks.

[DJ E.]

Hmmm, interesting...thanks larry.

[4v50 Gary]

Lunde - absolutely gorgeous! When I grow up, I want to own pretty rifles like yours.

[BamBam-31]

Yeesh! Just fondled one in a local Kali store. Too plasticy for me, made my skin crawl. Reminded me of my Daisy.

Dealer said that only 1,000 were made to date, and that there was a backorder of about 20,000. Gonna take a while to get one, if I did want one. This guy already had deposits from nine different guys, even though it might take months for them to get in.

He also said to wait, that Kel-Tec was going to unveil a newer version at Shot Show. Dunno how accurate his info was, tho'. I think I'm gonna hold off for now anyways.

[Badger Arms]

1) Will the gas system be affected adversely by this?Sven: I don't think so. If it is effected, you could SLIGHTLY enlarge the gas port with a reamer drill bit. That's such a small difference that it would only slightly lower the port pressure and MIGHT make the gun slightly less vigorous in extraction and ejection.2) Would you be comfortable without a front sight on there?Why not remount the front sight? Personally, I'd put a scope on in front of the peep sight and keep both on the gun. Would make it easy to take the scope off in a fix and use the irons.

[OneShot]

My friends SU broke a firing pin at about 300 rounds. He called Kel Tec and they sent him out two new updated (beefed up) firing pins at no charge.

The replacement ones were noticably different from the original. His SU was number 45X in number. They stated that they were aware that there was a problem.

Just thought I'd let you guys know. Maybe they will send you out spares if you ask---Oneshot

[Sven]

My serial number is N008X - they did send me two new firing pins. Will post a comparison once I take it apart and replace the old pin.

[AK103K]

I got one a little while ago and had posted this on another board. Figured I'd save myself some typing, so I copied it here.


"I got my SU-16 about a week ago and got to take it out on about one of the coldest days we have had around here in awhile. It was 15* and windy. I got to fire 150 rounds at 25 and 50 yards. This was a "just to get to shoot it trip" so its not any kind of wring it out type report. From what I've seen so far just playing with it, its not a flimsy, thrown together rifle. Mine is tight, and seems to be well made and thought out. The bipod is functional and works, but I probably will not use it much. The gun is tight when open and has no wiggle or wobble. You would never know it folded if they didnt tell you. You just push the pin out with a bullet or drift and it folds in two. The pin stores in its hole with a retaining clip, but this is the only thing I dont like about the gun. I know it will get lost easy if not secured some other way. This is something I'm going to have to think about. The safety is rounded on one side and hollow on the other. It grabs your fingertip when you put your finger on it and is very positive to flick off. The safety is also reversible for leftys. The rifle comes with two 10 round plastic Keltec mags and a sight tool.
Here are a couple of pics. These are pretty much what the rest of the targets look like as they didnt vary much for each distance.

I shot it first at 25 yards just leaning on the bench. (I forgot it had a bipod :) ) This is the first 10 round group I shot, point of aim was 6 o'clock on the bull.:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p5d21a57687b8999ee3f1b140a72483aa/f9effd7a.jpg



The next pic is 10 rounds offhand aiming about center and just fired in a nice rhythm:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/pe6d6f01ffe65684d0ad6b77e5f3c5426/f9effd76.jpg

The next is 10 rounds at 50 yards fired off the bipod( I remembered I had one now :) ) It was shot off the bench and point of aim was again 6 o'clock on the bull.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/pbb13be0d341a14eb4a856e545e2c04a0/f9effd6e.jpg

I didnt adjust the sights at all today and they pretty much shot right on where you aimed it. I was expecting recoil like an AR and it was a little stiffer. I suppose its due to the different type stock, and lighter weight. The Keltec mags fed flawlessly, the USGI M16 mags had some troubles at first. The GI mags go into the gun a little snug but lock up fine. What happened at first is the bolt carrier weas hanging up on the rear of the mag and took about 3 trys to get it to feed. This was with both mags I had with me. After the second or third try, they loaded and fed fine the rest of the time. The carrier wore spots on both mags in the same place. The shiny spot on the rear of the mag is where it was hitting in this pic:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/pe99561c174f0e2ae20f09876ab56375a/f9effd1d.jpg

Both mags wore the same way, heavier on the right side and just slightly on the left. I guess the carrier was trimming the mag and once done, they fed fine. You will probably need to check and dedicate the mags you use, at least I'm probably going to have to. These mags were both made by the same contractor and may be another with have no trouble at all, I guess you'll just have to check them. The GI mag fits snugly in the stock and does take a little effort to get it out. Mostly because it hard to get a hold of it to pull on it. The rifle is a little muzzle heavy without a loaded mag in the stock, but balances much better with a loaded 30 rounder in there. All in all, its a pretty cool little rifle and so far, for as little as I've shot it, I like it. Its not meant to be your main gun, not that you couldnt use it that way, but I think its meant more to be a truck or boat type gun that stows out of the way but is there when you need it. I think it would make a good backpacker too. By the way, I dont know how many they have out there yet, but mine is serial number 3xx. So now I'm really scared! I hate being the guinea pig. Before you listen to the bad mouthing from the Internet, I'd check one out, and if possible shoot one. I think they have a place in the scheme of things."


One thing about the GI mags, some seem to work without trouble, my Colt mags cycle fine by hand, while others from the same maker I had trouble with hang up in the same place for about the same number of rounds but do start to feed once "broke in". I have others that still had the bolt carrier hit the top of the mag, but not as bad and did work after one or two tries. I still havent fired these yet, but I think they will most likely work if they cycle by hand, but I'll have to see for sure. As for getting them out of the stock, I put a piece of inner tube around the mag I have in the gun at the point where you can grab it through the stock. This does make it a lot easier to get the mag out.
I have since taken the rear sight off and put a Beeman SS 3 1.5x4 air rifle scope on it. The rear sight just wont fit with the scope on where I like it, but the scope has a "see thru" mount, and the channel you see thru is like a ghost ring itself, so I might still have a peep so to speak. I was going to put a dot sight on it, but I think the scope will be the better choice.

All in all so far, its a cool little rifle and we'll just have to see how it goes. My Kel Tec P32 worked great at first and then decided it didnt like me anymore, so I'm watching this one close. :)

[Sven]

Took the rifle down today - took just 2 minutes to figure it out - and replaced the old-school firing pin (bottom) with the new-style pin (top). I'm providing this picture so owners can find out which design firing pin they have in their rifle.

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/firing_pin_.jpg
Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/su-16/firing_pin.jpg)

[larryw]

Hmmm, mine's numbered in the high seven-hundreds and has the old style pin...time to call Kel-Tec...

[Mornard]

What's the MSRP for these - I've been waiting for them to be shipped but have no idea how much I'm gonna spend...

[BamBam-31]

They're selling here in Kali for just shy of $500.

[Sven]

Dunno - we paid $439 street + shipping + FFL fees + state registration, etc.

I really like this rifle and hope it shoots well - if it shoots the same as the Mini-14 it will sell like hotcakes. The ergonomics are nice and it is very light and handy. She will be fired, soon...

[lunde]

I put another 140 rounds (Black Hills remanufactured 50gr V-Max) through my SU-16 this morning. Larry (aka, larryw) was there, and we were hoping that Steve (aka, Sven) would show up with his SU-16 to shoot.

I shot a total of fourteen ten-shot groups. The sight is a non-magnifying EOTech holographic mounted on the entire length of the Picatinny rail (see earlier photos in this thread). My first 50-yard target, using the bipod as the only means of a rest, had four ten-shot groups, measured as follows (in the order they were shot):

1 3/16"
1 3/8"
1 7/16"
2 7/16"

I then shot five ten-shot groups at 100 yards, measured as follows (again, in the order they were shot):

4 3/16"
3 13/16"
2 9/16
2 7/8"
2 1/4" (discounting one significant flier, it would have been 1 1/2")

The first two groups were shot using the bipod, and the last three were with sandbags.

My last target was five ten-shot groups, again at 50 yards, all using sandbags as a rest, and measured as follows (again, in the order they were shot):

1 3/4"
1 3/8"
1 1/2"
1"
1 7/8"

I shot a little bit better with bags compared to the bipod.

For functionality, the 10-round Kel-Tec mags have been flawless. Two came with the rifle, and I bought two more. My 30-round steel mags (look like GI mags) work 100%, too, but my 30-round Orlite ones have feeding problems.

I also like the EOTech sight a lot.

[Sven]

Ken: do you notice any wear on the back of your 30 rounder? Some folks on ktrange.com showed how the bolt was lightly scraping metal off their mags.

[lunde]

I noticed the same wear on the 30-round mags. I wasn't able to use the Orlite mags enough for them to wear at all. I didn't care too much for the Orlite mags anyway, as they won't fit into the buttstock.

[Sven]

Shot it tonight, off a rest and offhand - it's a keeper.

My guess is 2-3 MOA will be par - that's where I was today with the 'iron' sights using S&B. The front sight was easy to pick up, but the rear aperature is so open that you only have a fuzzy view of the true center.

This rifle needs optics. Dream plan:

http://www.ar15.biz/images/tripower30.jpg

;)

[Poohgyrr]

That'll work. I've shot three or four Mini's & the accuracy just wasn't there for me for any of them. I have AR mags & will go look for one of these to handle.
Thanks for the range reports........

[T.Stahl]

Looks like an interesting gun. A bit like a cross between an AR15 and a Steyr Scout.
IF the SU-16 would be available over here and IF I could somehow prove a need for one, I'd be more than willing to pay €500 for one. ;)

[Skunkabilly]

Sven, have you played with one of those yet? I've been waiting 2 years for one and forgot they were out there.

[mariosjsk8]

I want a SU 16 but no one around here(San Jose) has one for a reasonable price..!!!! Sven, you gave me a number for some guy in Texas but he doesn't return my calls. Any one else no where I can get one under 500.00?

[DJ E.]

I want a SU 16 but no one around here(San Jose) has one for a reasonable price..!!!! Sven, you gave me a number for some guy in Texas but he doesn't return my calls. Any one else no where I can get one under 500.00?


Irvington Arms in Fremont had one for $505...that might be the best you're gonna do around here. Might wanna call and see if it's still available. Good luck!

[artherd]

I'd like to see a good scope-mounted SU-16's accuracy results on a calm day, with a good load it likes. (eg Black Hills.)

If the groups above are indicitive, I think I'll pass. But if it's really a 1-1.5MOA gun, then we may be onto something!

[AK103K]

I think for what the gun is, its level of accuracy is pretty good. Its not a target rifle, or even a gun that I think you would plan on grabbing when you went hunting for that matter. I see it more as something like a souped up AR7 type gun. One you have behind the seat, or stuffed in or strapped to your backpack and is carried a lot and used little. Its just always there, out of the way and ready to go when needed. If it will shoot tight little groups all the better, but realisticly, its only got to shoot into 6-9" at 300 yards to be a practical shooter. I dont see the point of putting some big bulky scope on it. The small scopes or dot type sights seem more appropriate. Even the stock peeps work well and maybe even the best, especially for what it is.

[Preacherman]

DJ E. asked:How hard do you think it would be to cut down the stock around 3/4-1"?I've done this to a number of synthetic stocks, and I'll post a new thread in Rifles with details. Hope this helps.

[ScorpioVI]

Aside from Irvington Arms in Fremont, do any of our local gun shops in San Jose currently have one in stock?

I'd like to pick one up.

Thanks for the help.

[lunde]

Two more came up for sale at a reasonable price: http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=83471

[artherd]

I dont see the point of putting some big bulky scope on it. The small scopes or dot type sights seem more appropriate. Even the stock peeps work well and maybe even the best, especially for what it is.

I'm just pissed because what I really want is an AR, which is a 1-2MOA gun at worst, and some of the better ones are 1/2MOA all day long (some are even better than that.)

Unfortunately my commie state thinks that the SU-16 and an AR-15 are somehow so different.

[9mmepiphany]

sshhhh...

the su-16 is a user friendly, lightweight, camping/backpacking plinker (everything the mini-14 should have been) without any "evil features"...and i'm sticking with that story ;)

it just happens to be able to used the ar-15 mags which i have from before the limits on mag capacity came into effect

[Sven]

We are ALL pissed that we can't have an AR-15. But we buy these other guys just the same. The SU-16 is really fun to shoot.

[mariosjsk8]

So how accurate is this gun? Some gun shop the other day told me they are worse than a Mini 14? I haven't shot the gun but i haven't really found any one that is disappointed except the poeple who are able to get a AR-15 outside of CA. SO c'mon more range reports please.

[DJ E.]

SO c'mon more range reports please.


I concur:)

[AK103K]

Mine is more accurate than the two Mini 14's I've owned. Its also more accurate than my Bushy Dissapator, but then again, so is my 7.62x39 AK103K. It isnst more accurate than my Armalite M15A4(t) though. :)
Feel sorry for you if you live somewhere you cant own what we can here in PA, which is anything we can afford, and everything we cant, but I guess that parts a personal problem. :) As for cutting the stock down, I'd like to see it be that 1" or more shorter, as I think it is a tad long, but I dont really see how it could be done and still hold the GI mag. It would also remove the part that clips the stock to the barrel when folded, not that thats really a biggie. The stock isnt like most other synthetic types that are for the most part easily shortend as mentioned, not that it couldnt be done if you were really determined.

[Sven]

> Some gun shop the other day told me they are worse than a Mini 14?

How many Mini 14s where on the gun shop shelf?
How many SU-16s?

[lunde]

I have some news from the Kel-Tec booth at the SHOT Show. Me and Larry (aka, larryw) were there, and when I noticed that Kel-Tec had a couple new models of the SU-16 coming down the pipe, I had Larry stop by to check them out. If memory serves, they are as follows:

A carbine version that has the front sight post pounted on the very forward portion of the gas tube, and is in fact integral with it. The barrel has a muzzle brake of sorts that screws on. The stock truly folds, meaning that it can fire while folded (we won't be able to get that one in California).

Another full-size version had a different type of front sight that is steel and uses a hex screw, screwed in from the top-rear of the sight post, to secure it to the barrel.

A new rear sight that uses a phillips screw to secure it to the Picatinny rail, as opposed to the polymer rod that is used to secure it in place now.

A new camouflage finish. They had one type shown at the show, but there are apparently two. These are the hunting styles of camo, such as RealTree.

Although they didn't have a prototype with them, I asked about the sling attachment. The pin that serves as a pivot point for the handguards/bipod is replaced with a version that has a sling swivel on one side. The other attachment point is one of the screws close to, but right behind, the trigger guard.

That's about all I remember from the Kel-Tec booth.

[Sven]

Here is a photo from the Gunblast.com report:

http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT2004/Day2/DSC02552.jpg
click here for original article on Gunblast.com (http://www.gunblast.com/SHOT_2004_2.htm)

[DougB]

I also got to see the new SU-16 variations shown at the Shot Show. I think the 16" version will be a big seller for them. The barrel is significantly thinner and 2" shorter than the original SU-16. I believe this cuts the already light weight by an additional 14 oz. Also, the metal "AR-15 style" front sight on this one seems much nicer than the original plastic version. I think the stock is slightly shorter as well (though I'm not sure I'm remembering correctly about this). They had a traditional open rear sight on this instead of the original apeture sight. I think the new one is adjustable for windage (and the front blade screws up and down like an AR-15 for elevation adjustment). I think Kel-Tec (or someone) should come up with an adjustable apeture rear sight (though current AR-15 rear sights that clamp on the flat top rail may work fine - I don't know if the height would be right or not).

I didn't think to ask if the new thinner, shorter barrel with the metal front sight can be purchased and installed on the original SU-16 rifles (how tough is it to remove the barrel on these?) I think they said the new version probably won't be available until the end of the year.

The new variation shown in the photo above that can fire with the stock folded is also nice - though I don't think it will be CA-legal. It was interesting that they got around the prohibition on threaded barrels by developing some sort of a threaded sleeve that slips over the barrel and has external threads so you can screw a muzzle device to the sleeve that then locks it to the barrel. I didn't see exactly how it works, but it seems to get around the threaded barrel prohibition, while still allowing standard threaded muzzle devices to be attached (a pretty slick idea).

I think they said the camo finish (which looked nice) will be offered on all varations for an additional charge.

Doug

[45R]

Lunde-
Thanks for letting me shoot your SU16 today. It was pretty nice shooting a .223 that did not have the "spppoing" noise everytime I pulled the trigger. The coolest thing was hearing PING PING PING each time I hit the metal target. The Holographic sight is pretty sweet!



45R

[lunde]

45R, you're, of course, welcome. Also, it was nice to finally meet face-to-face.

[SIGarmed]

So the newer model in CA won't have the improved sight and shorter barrel? What about a variant with the newer sight and barrel without the newer folding stock? I hope they sell something like that for folks in California.

[DougB]

According to the Kel-Tec web site and what I saw at Shot Show, there are two 16" versions in the works - both with the thinner barrel and new metal front sight. One has the same folding stock setup as the original SU-16 and should be legal in California, and the other that can be fired with the stock folded and won't be CA legal. This latter version also has the muzzle brake option. I think the new rear sights may be offered as options on all the models (seems like I read this).

Doug

[Sven]

Looks like quarter 3 or 4 of this year until they these new configurations are slated to be released to the public. Until then, I'm blasting away, having a ball...

[GW]

Well, I broke down and bought one at Sportsmen's Supply in San Jose
$569 out the door
Pick it up next week.

[jlwatts3]

Anyone thinking about getting the forend conversion kit? I don't like the way the bipod forend looks or feels so this looks sweet.
http://www.kel-tec.com/su-16_accessories.htm

[jval]

I can't tell from the photo. Does the new forend still incoprorate the bi-pod?

[GW]

No It does not have a bipod
It also won't accept the sling mount system either so I'm passing on it until it does