Rattan


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shing7890
April 3, 2009, 03:11 PM
I have a Ratan stick that I got from Smokey Mountain Knife Works. Its as tough as nails an it will get the job done if you have trouble with a bad guy.

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James T Thomas
April 3, 2009, 06:00 PM
That Rattan certainly is tough. And lightweight too!

Therein lies it's deficiency.
It certainly is suitable for thrusts and slashes, but for smashes and strokes
it does not have sufficient mass behind it.

Unless, you are exceptionally well trained and can focus your body weight behind it.

Now, I would not want to be struck in the head with it; headache time, but
for skull cracking, Mushashi style, I think a heavy oak or other substantial hardwood would be more efficient.

Doubtfull? Just try to imagine driving off a heavy weight Pitt Bull in the fury of attacking your little loving pet with that Rattan.
That Pitt Bull will look at you all the while it is eating your pet and in it's eyes you will see that it intends that you are next.

CWL
April 3, 2009, 09:15 PM
There are probably millions (or maybe only hundreds of thousands) of escrima practitioners who would disagree with you, myself included. You don't need to bust a skull to take someone down with rattan batons.

4' lengths of rattan cane is what is commonly issued to riot police in countries like India and Pakistan.

KevinAbbeyTech
April 3, 2009, 10:29 PM
Yeah, if there's trouble, you can give them a good whooping. lol

I think it could be very effective so long as pain is enough to bring them down.
Deadly force could not be easily achieved with such a cane.

shing7890
April 3, 2009, 10:56 PM
I thank you for your opinions and would also say that if you put the end of this cane in ones throat on the thrust or swing it should bring him down. I would also look for any tender spots on the body. Ears,top of hand,side of face,etc This would not kill a person on the tender spots but make him think twice about continuing his attack unless he is druged up on something then thats when conceal weapon comes in.

LAK
April 4, 2009, 09:04 AM
Therein lies it's deficiency.
It certainly is suitable for thrusts and slashes, but for smashes and strokes
it does not have sufficient mass behind it
Increases in mass might break more bones. But increases in mass increase inertia affecting speed - and fatigue.

A light stick such as the one described can be directed and redirected with significant speed and vigor. Just offhand; the ears, elbows, wrists/hands, outside the knees are four sensitive areas where a light stick can be used to smashing good effect.

There are advantages to things heavier, and things lighter. While a sjambok is not going to smash any bones, with sufficient vigor, ferocity, and direction it can certainly be very effective,

------------------------------

http://gtr5.com
http://ssunitedstates.org

JShirley
April 4, 2009, 11:42 AM
Mr. Thomas has a point. I like rattan, as well as ramin, but I like canvas micarta sticks even better. They are of course very different, and the micarta is about 6x as expensive.

John

Carl Levitian
April 4, 2009, 12:27 PM
All to often rattan is underestimated because of the lightweight of it.

While it may be short of skull cracking, a high speed blow with rattan will split flesh resulting in a nasty wound similar to a sjambok. And a rattan will break the smaller bones of the fingers, hand, wrist. With one arm/hand out of action from structure failure, no attacker is going to be that hard to finish off.

In our neighborhood watch group, is a Sikh. He's a pretty good size guy, about 6 foot or maybe a bit more, stout build. While the rest of us are carrying canes, walking sticks, pepper spray, Ram carries a 4 foot rattan staff. I've watched him practice with it, and I for one don't want to be in his way when he has that.

Fred Fuller
April 4, 2009, 02:11 PM
http://www.indianlathi.com/

http://www.lathistick.com/lathi_home.htm

http://www.mardb.com/lathi/

lpl

hso
April 4, 2009, 11:52 PM
Deadly force could not be easily achieved with such a cane.

As someone trained in escrima and who also has had some training with cane and staff I assure you that you can easily kill someone with such a stick.

Sunray
April 5, 2009, 12:56 AM
Rattan is odd stuff. It's been used for SCA swords for eons because there's no sharp pointy bits on the broken end when it breaks. Repeatedly hitting hard stuff with it turns it mushy.
Whack a bad guy with an unpadded length of it and he'll know he's been hit, but it likely won't put him down. Certainly break wrists etc though. Elbows, noses, temples, kneecaps and wrists are your targets.

LAK
April 5, 2009, 04:11 AM
A good thrust into the right place will actually put most anyone down. Just one in the right place will very likely do it permanently.

vicdotcom
April 5, 2009, 07:33 PM
I have a Ratan stick that I got from Smokey Mountain Knife Works. Its as tough as nails an it will get the job done if you have trouble with a bad guy.
From personal experience, rattan cane will CERTAINLY be enough to stop a threat. You do have to understand the characteristics of the material though. Light and strong but not a lot of weight. So unlike hickory, you are not going to swing it like a bat. Instead you are making short compact swings to build up inertia and speed. The tip speed can reach well over 110 mph. This is what you are striking with. If you hit with the "meat" of the stick, your loosing energy. One recommendation is to take off the rubber bumpers since that is your business end either with a strike or a thrust. But I would rather have a rattan staff/stick over a baseball bat anyday.

conw
April 6, 2009, 05:35 PM
http://www.southernpridepitbulls.com/dogs/Blades%20Father%20Ultimate%20Blues%20Villian.jpg

"James, I don't appreciate being stereotyped like that...say, is that a toothpick?"

CWL
April 7, 2009, 02:27 PM
conwict, if that 'little pup' has already got you by the privates and locked its jaw, I don't think application of rattan or hardwood is gonna make it let go.

Maybe enough hammerblows using the base of a stick may eventually break its spine...

James T Thomas
April 7, 2009, 06:33 PM
"Conwict:"

That dog looks tough enough, but some how in him I see a friendly animal.

I would hope he would stay friendly!

conw
April 7, 2009, 07:35 PM
Hehe, sorry, not trying to derail the thread. He's not mine, just a random "bully pit" I found on Google images. I think he looks like a friendly if vigorous dog, myself. I am gonna throw an actual pic of my dog in here with apologies to the original poster.

http://i42.tinypic.com/169579v.jpg

KevinAbbeyTech
April 8, 2009, 06:12 AM
I have seen threads get off subject before, but how did we get from canes to dogs?

bikerdoc
April 8, 2009, 06:35 AM
OK , back to the topic dudes. A stick gives you distance, and distance is your friend. Whatever system you have trained in, whatever material you use, use it, use it well, and, go home to a good meal.

For those of you who went though basic training, remember the bayonet drill. Works with a stick also. If thats all the training you got. use it, but consider getting some more training.

Max C.
April 8, 2009, 04:17 PM
You should try KIL sticks (http://www.valleymartialarts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=129_36_37&products_id=255). These sticks are awesome. They last a lot longer and are heavier/denser. They're the only sticks I'll use in FMA training. Very nice stuff.

JShirley
April 8, 2009, 04:34 PM
A 4' Micarta rod 1.125 (https://www.2checkout.com/checkout/purchase?PTCOID=d31a2ed111decba08024fd0e8d788a6c&sid=13467&product_id=6462&quantity=1) in diameter will run a little over $60, shipped.

A similar 1.25 rod (https://www.2checkout.com/cgi-bin/ccbuyers/purchase?remove_product_index=0) will run about $4 more. I wouldn't go thinner than 1" or larger than 1.25", and 1.125 will probably be ideal for most.
http://phenolic-sheets-rods-tubes.com/C-CE-rods.htm

John

Gunfighter123
April 8, 2009, 05:17 PM
Just my 2 cents --- I have been hit hundreds/thousands of times in Eskrima , many times by our Datu or black belt instructors ----- we don't wear hand guards/wraps in sparring.

I've had countless hits to my hands , arms etc ----- I've never dropped the rattan stick --- had blood drawn many times and a few times , after a full power hit -- I didn't feel like "playing" anymore.

For my "battle sticks " I MUCH prefer Kamagong or another heavy wood.

IMHO -- rattan sticks are good for speed/flow drills etc. but are a bit on the light side for breaking bone.


EDIT --- link;
http://kriscutlery.com/documents/philippine.html

.45Guy
April 16, 2009, 01:27 PM
I turned this "walking stick" in shop class. It's made from 3 pieces of red oak, and pretty well balances out the light versus enough weight to do damage argument.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g27/aguy123/GEDC0333.jpg

RatDrall
April 16, 2009, 05:32 PM
Rattan is awesome, it is light but dense enough to swing very quickly. Also, it doesn't splinter, just kind of frays.

Whack a bad guy with an unpadded length of it and he'll know he's been hit, but it likely won't put him down.

Therein lies it's deficiency.
It certainly is suitable for thrusts and slashes, but for smashes and strokes
it does not have sufficient mass behind it.

I train in Kali-Silat, we use rattan sticks.

A light, properly pulled strike will raise a welt. In heated sparring (of which, I admit, I've done very little) a glancing blow, even pulled, tends to be very painful.

I have no doubt that a full power blow would destroy whatever is hit, or at least disable it.

bikerdoc
April 16, 2009, 06:06 PM
Very nice work .45 Guy.

I want to get back to turning canes as soon as I find a friend with a lathe (Yes, I am cheap.)

vicdotcom
April 16, 2009, 06:27 PM
Funny, The show "Time Warp" on discovery channel today had a segment on Kali and rattan sticks.

It's a show that records things in High Definition Super Slow Motion and smash stuff.

Good segment.

Carl Levitian
April 16, 2009, 06:28 PM
I turned this "walking stick" in shop class. It's made from 3 pieces of red oak, and pretty well balances out the light versus enough weight to do damage argument.

__________________
"The plural of anecdote IS NOT evidence."


Please don't take this wrong, 45Guy, but you may want to remake that stick without the pre-stress break lines in it.

Those grooves cut into it will be the stress lines, so that the first time you wack something with it, chances are it's going to snap off clean with one of those grooves. You've created a breakaway stick.

Grooves weaken any wood. To see how this works, go out in the woods and take a sappling you want to cut down. You won't need a hatchet, just a small pocket knife. Now cut a groove around the bottom of the sappling, and reach up high as you can and bend the sappling over. It will break where you cut the groove with the pocket knife.

Any lines or grooves cut into wood across the grain, weakens it.

JShirley
April 16, 2009, 09:39 PM
I got in some phenolic rods in grade XX today. The grain is much finer than my old canvas micarta (which I guess was grade C or CE), but it appears to still be rough enough to slide without sticking to and burning your hands.

It looks like woods, perhaps even more so than the canvas micarta rods, but it's heavy enough to hit solidly, while still being lighter than steel or iron.

I'll be testing one of these rods in the next few days, if I can find the time (Army Reserve unit is having an exercise with VERY long days). I want to be sure it's as tough as I hope it is, before I recommend them to anyone else.

Eric Draven
April 17, 2009, 04:49 AM
My personal fav for fighting sticks are the kind we make. I know that sounds like I'm pimping my own products but test them out for yourself and see. We use a synthetic that can break Rattan, IronWood, and stands up to cement parking garage supports and Parking blocks. Ramshead did some pretty thorough testing on them as well as Mark Davies having a few pairs and running them thru their paces. Maybe Ramshead will step in and talk about his expirences with them...becuz hearing it from me is one thing, but hearing it from someone not involved is another. He has so much faith in our sticks, that he said HE will buy someone a new pair if they break within 2 years....and he doesnt work with me. :)
J.S....I gotta get you a pair of these...I guarantee you'll be floored. And I KNOW theyll last longer than ANYTHING else natural on the market. Our next step is to drive over them with a truck to see what happens. :D

CWL
April 17, 2009, 03:18 PM
I have different rods and batons from rattan, hardwoods, PC, and various synthetics including some Mad Dog sticks made out of jade G10.

The problem I have with synthetic rods besides the weight is that they transfer impact energy directly to my hands. They tend to be on the skinny side as well because of weight and sourcing issues.

Are there any newer materials that don't transfer energy as much as the current synthetics? Any other solution besides wrapping them?

conw
April 17, 2009, 04:42 PM
John,

If you don't mind post a vid of you using those during tests. If it isn't too much trouble. I will not harangue you as I did in the past with the water bottle test and flashlight test :neener:

JShirley
April 19, 2009, 02:08 AM
Guys,

As I said, I've been on an exercise the last few days, but after I got home from yesterday's training, my buddy Davis came over with some hockey sticks. I protested that I didn't think they'd be a tough enough test of the rods, but he pointed out that one of them was kevlar reinforced, and pretty darn tough.

He then leaned the kevlar-graphite stick against the fence, and struck it from an angle where the stick couldn't move as the rod hit it. Crunch- the kevlar sheathing prevented the stick pieces from actually separating, but one fairly hard (75%?) swing broke the hockey stick like it was nothing. Unfortunately conwict, I didn't get any video, of that strike or of me hitting the other stick as angles where it was free to move somewhat, until I put it in a similar position as the first, and Davis broke with one swing, too. :D

CWL, one of the things Davis mentioned was that they rods didn't transmit much vibration. The stick we were using has the least little impression from all the strikes. Looks like these sticks are going to work out well. :D Davis mentioned the one thing he'd like to do to make these perfect walking sticks would be to put some kind of wrapping near the top of the stick, to act as a "hand stop" while walking.

I did take a couple of pictures of the rods and the broken sticks, but I don't know when I'll be able to find a card reader! Will post when I find mine or get another.

Eric, I'd love to test your sticks against these, some time. I don't know what yours are, but these do seem pretty damn tough.

John

seeker_two
April 21, 2009, 07:28 PM
Not sure how it applies....but food for thought....

http://www.590klbj.com/ToddAndDon/Blogentry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10028986

RamsHead
April 22, 2009, 10:35 AM
Hey all, new guy here. I have tested Eric's sticks and they are quite nice and absolutely combat ready, shock was only a factor on
a 3'" dia. 5' tall concrete filled steel pipe. The only damage i could do was cosmetic and shattering or splintering is a non issue. They even deflected an axe blow with only about a 1/4" cut into the material . They are for sure a one time purchase unless you want more or lose them.

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