[kowenjr]

I bought a S&W 442 Airlite yesterday along with some accessories and some ammo. The only ammo in the store for .38 was Federal Premium +P+ 147 grain JHP for law enforcement. I thought it was +P when I bought it. When I got home and realized it was +P+ I had concerns and did some checking if this gun could even fire this. I realize this would only be used for PD and not be fired at the range, other than to make sure it worked, but should this even be used at all in an Airlite?

[jfh]

the short answer is "NO"--

1. There is no SAAMI standard for 38 Special +P+. However, Federal may well have established some sort of 'standard' in its manufacturing process. Have you checked the Federal site?

2. The aluminum-framed lightweights, like your 442, are designed and warranteed by S&W for +P--and this ammo will probably void your warranty.

One thing for sure is that it will shorten its life. Can you use it? Sure. Will it blow up the gun--not very likely. Will you 'enjoy' shooting it? Again, not likely.

Keep looking for a good round, like the Rem38S12 (158-gr. LSWC, +P)--and load the Federal for now.

Jim H.

[SaxonPig]

Contact Federal and ask them the chamber pressure of this load. Might even be on the their website listing specifications for the ammo. If 21,500 PSI or less then I would not hesitate to use it. If higher then I would avoid it.

I suspect it is 21,500 or less. This is the maximum pressure for the caliber and I cannot imagine ANY manufacturer selling ammo that would exceed this limit.

[kowenjr]

Thanks for the info. I went to Federal's site and downloaded their ballistics file but the +P+ 147 grain is not even shown anywhere. I think I'll just give it to my buddy who has a .357 just to be safe.

[deercop]

Federal Hydra shok 147 +P+ is the last .38 Special that the FBI issued. In their tests, it was an improvement over the old 158 LSWCHP +P. It is also within pressure limits of .38 +P, but is stamped as +P+ in an attempt to keep it out of non-LE distributor channels.

FWIW, it is one of the most accurate factory loads I have shot from my .38/.357 guns, including my Airweight 642.

[deercop]

http://le.atk.com/ballistics/Ammo_Ballistics.aspx?id=560&firearm=2&bc=0.2&muzzvel=950&bulletwgt=147

[sidheshooter]

In a world that has seen numerous versions of 158g LSWCHP loads at 1000 fps out of 4 inches, 147 at 950 doesn't seem far out at all.

I wouldn't want to shoot either in a light weight J-frame-more for me than the gun.

Ammuntion to go has bulk 129g Hydra Shok +P right now, you could order a box or two of that (or try and find the above mentioned remington 158g LSWCHP in stock somewhere; all the online places seem to be out this point in time) and let the 147 go to a larger frame size.

FWIW.

[ArchAngelCD]

In a world that has seen numerous versions of 158g LSWCHP loads at 1000 fps out of 4 inches, 147 at 950 doesn't seem far out at all.
I agree, if Remington can push a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet to 900 fps from a 4" barrel Federal pushing a 147gr bullet to 950 fps isn't out of line at all.

[hoptob]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=66672

I shot 100-200 +P+ handloads in my 442, the gun started loosening up. Had it repaired by S&W and relegated to carry duty.

Mike

[SaxonPig]

A 147/950 wouldn't concern me much. I have seen the 158/1140 load fired in an alloy J frame without effect to the gun.

I wonder if Hoptob's gun was defective in some way? A 442 shouldn't "shoot loose" with factory ammo.

I still maintain that NO ammo maker will sell ANY load that exceeds SAAMI pressure limits even if limited to police sales. I am convinced that ANY factory 38 Special load may be safely shot in ANY quality made revolver.

[GRIZ22]

I agree, if Remington can push a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet to 900 fps from a 4" barrel Federal pushing a 147gr bullet to 950 fps isn't out of line at all.


Don't confuse velocity with pressure. You can have what seems to be a reasonable velocity with too high a pressure usually with faster powders.

I've seen steel frame S&W M60s blow cylinders and topstraps with +P+. I'd use it in a 357 rated revolver but not a 442.

[Diggers]

What is crazy to me is the gun shop only had that one type of .38s!!

Jeez, whats up with that?

[jfh]

"What is crazy to me is the gun shop only had that one type of .38s!!
Jeez, whats up with that?"

Well, it does suggest to me that either there were more knowledge buyers preceding you--and that the clerk may have ventured some advice. Add to that the current buying hysteria, and they were simply out of stock of the more-normal 38 Special ammo.

If you can find it, buy a box of the GDSB 38+P 135-gr. loads--those, or the Rem38S12s.

As for hoptobob's gun loosening up--well, those weren't factory loads, and his reloads included some number of the famous Speer #8 recipe using SR-4756. Two years ago there was a number of long-winded discussions about those loads over on the S&W Reloading forum. (I built those rounds, too, and tried them--but only in my 640 / 357, or in my scandium j-frames.

Jim H.

[sidheshooter]

I still maintain that NO ammo maker will sell ANY load that exceeds SAAMI pressure limits even if limited to police sales. I am convinced that ANY factory 38 Special load may be safely shot in ANY quality made revolver.

Digging around doing research (including some choice vintage posts by Saxon) has convinced me as well. Key words per above are "factory" and "safely". That doesn't mean that at the extreme ends of matchmaking (ie: aluminum j-frames and heavy +P+ loads) that wear won't be accelerated (IMHO, of course); my 1976 36 3-inch j-frame had to go back to S&W for retiming after 200 rounds of what was considered hot back then: this speer "lawman" 110 +P round that was generally considered a LEO item. This round was a real kicker, it may well have been in the range of what we now think of as +P+; I defer to the experts there, as I don't know. Point being, at no point did anything blow up or come apart, it just wore faster (for whatever reason). Now I carry load the same remington 158+P as everyone else and shoot more standard wadcutter at the range.

That said, a secondary point is that the gun is there to save me, not me there to save the gun, as the old saw goes. I like that old 3-inch (which was my dad's first). If I get around to buying one of those ruger LCRs and feel for some reason like running buffalo bore 158+P, some of my stash of old corbon 158g +P+, or whatever else comes along at more than 1000fps from 4, and it wears faster, that's OK by me.

[Photoman]

I've shot many boxes of that load in my Model 64's. VERY accurate.

I would use it until some better ammo becomes available. If that's all you've got, then there's no question.

[hoptob]

Jim's right, mine weren't exactly factory +P+ loads. More along the lines of 158 gr. JHP / 1140 fps in 1-7/8" bbl... I later learned that max pressure of some of those loads was in the mid 30K psi. It did not have any immediate effect but over time endshake grew from 1 to 4 thousands; it was fixed by stretching the yoke. Goes to SaxonPig's point that 442 are sturdy little guns.

Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about 147 grainers at 950 fps but that's just me.

Mike

[351 WINCHESTER]

Brassfetcher tested that ammo from a 4" k frame. As I recall the mv was about 1000fps. I don't think it is really +P+ and for sure not nearly as hot at early corbon +P's.

[SaxonPig]

Griz22- I would like to hear more about all these Model 60s you saw blow up.

[ArchAngelCD]

Don't confuse velocity with pressure. You can have what seems to be a reasonable velocity with too high a pressure usually with faster powders.

I've seen steel frame S&W M60s blow cylinders and topstraps with +P+. I'd use it in a 357 rated revolver but not a 442
Griz,
I'm not confusing the two but they usually go up together.

I agree with SaxtonPig, I would also like to hear more about that M60. BTW, it's my opinion today's +P ammo is just yesterday's standard pressure stout loads while anything marked +P+ is probably pushing +P pressures.

[WC145]

I'd keep it for a carry load. Run a few cylinders full through just to get a feel for the recoil and where it shoots and then keep the rest for when you carry it. Buy some other regular pressure stuff for practice.

ammunitiontogo.com has Aguila standard pressure 158 SJHP in stock for $16.95 a box of 50 right now. Unless you can find something cheap at Wal-Mart, that may be as good a deal as your going to get these days if you just want something to run through the gun.

[ArchAngelCD]

I can't believe .38 Special ammo costs so much! Only 2 years ago it was $6.00 and now it's $17.00+ a box. For goodness sakes, it's only .38 Special ammo...