carrying with one in the chamber

[mylon]

I recently had a friend of mine get a nasty powder burn from accidently firing his weapon while removing it out of his holster at home. Is iy safe or is it smart to carry with one in the chamber. He was carrying a glock so there was no safety

[PT1911]

it is absolutely safe if you know what you are doing and are safe in how you handle a gun.. now, it you are lax in your handling, then it is not safe, and, more than not carrying one in the chamber, you should not carry the gun at all until you can handle it safely.

[JWarren]

Your friend either needs a new holster or is not careful.

I've carried a Glock 19 for 15 years and a 1911A1 for 2 years with one in the chamber.

A Glock (with "no safety") is exactly as safe as any revolver I've carried.


In the times that I'ved needed my handgun, I was VERY glad that it was actually loaded.


-- John

[CAVHOOAH]

Absolutely SAFE ! Ive carried 1911's for years cocked and locked....the only thing that will kill you is complacency.

I know every time I handle my carry pistol, it is loaded....everytime !

I agree with the above.....if your buddy had an A.D.....it was his own fault and should not carry anymore untill he learns to be steadfast in the basics of firearm handling.

Could have been me or my child (or anyone) in the area when it happened....and that my friends....would be tragedy due to stupidity.

Dont be a poster boy for Sarah Brady !

[kingpin008]

As others have said, it's perfectly safe provided you follow a few simple safety rules.

The only ways the gun can go off in that situation are:

1. The user accidentally allows his or her finger or clothing to enter the trigger guard while drawing or re-holstering, firing the gun.

or

2. The gun is ridiculously damaged and somehow manages to fire by itself.

Obviously, number one is much more likely, which is why it's critical to keep your booger hook off the bang switch at all times.

[Cuzzin]

Perfectly safe to carry with a chambered round - however, not for your friend!! The friend needs to learn to keep the booger hook off da bang switch. Seriously - where did the 'friend' learn firearms 101?? Give this to your friend and tell them as penance they must write it 1,000 times:

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

[AllAmerican]

I always carry with one in the pipe.

[PT1911]

I would say rule 1 is TREAT all guns as if they are loaded.:D.. but that is another thread and another argument...:neener:

[Animal Mother]

I've carried my P3AT with one in the tube for a couple of years now with no problems. And I can't believe I'm the first to say this in the thread, but...

Keep your booger hook off the bang switch!

[CAVHOOAH]

your not Animal...read post #6, rule three.

[sqlbullet]

Carrying a weapon in condition 3 (loaded magazine, empty chamber) is accepted. In a properly designed modern firearm there is no mechanical advantage in safety from this type of carry.

There is, additionally, no substitute for proper observance of the 'rules'. In your friends instance, he had placed his finger on the trigger when he was not prepared to discharge the weapon.

Finally, as the man says, there is little more useless than an unloaded gun, especially when you need a loaded one.

[Damon555]

You carry a gun because you might (hopefully never) need it. Shouldn't it be ready when you pull it out? Keep that finger off the trigger until it's time to fire the weapon.

[10-Ring]

I've been carrying my Glocks, Berettas, HKs & wheelguns -- round chambered & safety off for almost a 1/4 century....the key is a quality holster & keeping your finger off the trigger!

[ScareyH22A]

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also called "cocked and locked", this means that a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety is on.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber, the hammer is uncocked.
Condition 3 - There is no round in the chamber, the hammer is uncocked but a fully loaded magazine is inserted in the mag well.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, the hammer is uncocked and there is no magazine inserted in the mag well

A Glock with 1 in the chamber would fall under Condition 0 right? I prefer cocked and locked or Condition 1 via a 1911 or HK USP V1. My Kahr PM9 is like Condition 2. It requires a relatively long and heavish (6lbs or so) pull. I feel perfectly safe with my PM9. Condition 3 and 4... you might as well not even carry.

[Ruodo]

It depends on the gun, the holster, and the user.

If the gun has a stout trigger, maybe some kind of safety, and you know won't fire when dropped etc then yeah its ok to keep one in the chamber.

If the user isn't a very careful person I wouldn't recommend it, but if you know what you're doing then its ok.

[Animal Mother]

your not Animal...read post #6, rule three.

No, I meant the exact phrase.

[earplug]

Many forms of modern handgun competition starts out with a loaded firearm holstered.
Competition and safety classes prior to competition has provided us with many fine holsters and firearm designs that work with very light triggers.
People who don't compete and don't take training, frequently get sloppy in their handling of weapons and end up discharging them when not wanted.
Competitive shooting always has a range officer to monitor the shooter of any infraction of safe firearm handling. Compete and practice long enough and the limitations of your equipment will show up and your mental safety will be improved.
Firearms competion is no different then motor vehicle racing. They both improve the device and the operator.

[AKElroy]

His Glock did exactly what it was designed to do. If your freind wants to avoid having it fire unexpectedly, he should refrain from pulling the trigger, either on purpose or accidentally.

[lordmegatron]

my cousin accidently shot himself
in the lower stomach the bullet
went out his upper leg.. he was taking his gun out of the holster
his dog jumped on him and the gun went off, luckly my cousin knew what to do to stop the bleeding
the EMT's were surprised he didn't pass out from the loss of blood he was awake when they arrived
so no it's not safe to have one in the chamber. my cousin is lucky to be alive

[ScareyH22A]

What got caught on the trigger? Not his finger right?

[CAVHOOAH]

I disagree.....for a responsible firearm owner with his carry pistol.... It is not safe to NOT have a round in the chamber.

I can see it now... "hold on mr. robber, while I pull out my pistol, disengage the safety and rack the slide to chamber a round please"....

Yeah right. Learn how to properly carry and use a firearm....or dont carry or own one at all.

Simple as that.

[GRIZ22]

See my post here. Glocks are no more unsafe than other handguns.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5494080#post5494080

[AKElroy]

my cousin accidently shot himself

Glad your cousin made it through. I lost my great-uncle to a .410 loaded w/ birdshot; he grabbed the barrel & pulled it toward himself accross the seat of his truck. It snagged on something, fired, and he took a fatal load of #8 in the gut. That was on a hunt, and that was hardly a defensive weapon. When I am hunting, every long arm is muzzle to the carpet / chamber empty & open, or it is not welcome in my truck. These types of tragedies only reinforce the need for proper training for the intended use. Carry guns are worthless unloaded. I can list dozens or reasons for loaded chamber carry; for starters, I want my CCW to be operational with 1 hand. While it is not impossible to rack a slide one handed, having a BG wait for me to pull off that miracle is not something I am willing to bet on. You did not provide much detail regarding how your cousin had this happen; Only that his dog jumped on him causing a tragic AD. I have a 7 year old, and I DO NOT handle my weapons when he is climbing on or around me. I am sorry for your cousin's painful experience & I am glad he is around to tell this story, but I would bet that was not the first time that dog jumped on him. Even then, had his finger not been on the trigger, this would not have happened. Unless the dog shot him, in which case he should write a book & make some money.

[Ruodo]

I can see it now... "hold on mr. robber, while I pull out my pistol, disengage the safety and rack the slide to chamber a round please"....

I don't really see that as much of a problem. Most safeties can be disengaged with a simple thumb flick and you can rack the slide while aiming.

Unless the BG already has a gun pointed at you, that extra 1/2 of a second isn't going to hurt, and even if he did I doubt he is going to let you even live long enough to draw any handgun anyways.

[ScareyH22A]

I don't really see that as much of a problem. Most safeties can be disengaged with a simple thumb flick and you can rack the slide while aiming.

Unless the BG already has a gun pointed at you, that extra 1/2 of a second isn't going to hurt, and even if he did I doubt he is going to let you even live long enough to draw any handgun anyways.

Although I'm not fond of hair trigger carry, I cannot agree with carrying unchambered. If someone is uncomfortable with carrying a Glock, they should carry something else, either a DA or something with a thumb safety.

[BCC]

I carry a Sig 232 without one in the chamber. Accordingly, it's sop for me to rack the gun while starting to point. I'm not recommending this for others but the 2 factors that influence my current position are: Weapon cannot be discharged accidentally by me or other. It won't be readily apparent to an assailant how to fire the weapon in case I lose control.

I'm not saying those are great arguments, but they work for me at this stage of carry.

[JohnKSa]

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the safety is off....

A Glock with 1 in the chamber would fall under Condition 0 right?No.

There is no hammer, it's a striker fired gun and the striker is only half-cocked when a round is chambered. The spring is compressed to half its "cocked" compression which means that there is about 25% of the energy stored in it that will be there when the gun is actually "cocked".

Without your finger being on the trigger, there are 3 safeties engaged, those safeties disengage as the trigger is pulled.

The only time a Glock is in condition zero is when the trigger has been pulled nearly all the way to the rear.

[kyo]

I will want to carry my p345 with the safety on, and a chamber in the round. Even though the trigger pull is crazy long I would still rather keep it on. All it takes is my thump to flick it on the way out. No worries.
So condition 2.

[ScareyH22A]

I carry a Sig 232 without one in the chamber. Accordingly, it's sop for me to rack the gun while starting to point. I'm not recommending this for others but the 2 factors that influence my current position are: Weapon cannot be discharged accidentally by me or other. It won't be readily apparent to an assailant how to fire the weapon in case I lose control.

I'm not saying those are great arguments, but they work for me at this stage of carry.

Condition 3 means one less round I'll have to shoot which is definitely not an option for me.

[WC145]

Animal Mother-
I got it and it made me chuckle, thanks!

As for the subject at hand - NO TOUCH TRIGGER NO GO BANG - I don't think I can say it any simpler unless someone knows a single syllable word for trigger.:banghead:

[Davek1977]

my cousin accidently shot himself
in the lower stomach the bullet
went out his upper leg.. he was taking his gun out of the holster
his dog jumped on him and the gun went off, luckly my cousin knew what to do to stop the bleeding
the EMT's were surprised he didn't pass out from the loss of blood he was awake when they arrived
so no it's not safe to have one in the chamber. my cousin is lucky to be alive

Without fully knowing the details of what happened, I can't help but assume at some point, the trigger was pulled, as thats what tends to make guns go off. Had he kept his finger clear of the trigger, it wouldn't have mattered if the dog jumped on him or not. Guns don't just "go off" and if one has a proper holster, a normally functioning firearm and decent gun handling skills, theres no reason to NOT carry chambered. Millions do it daily without consequence. Theres exceptions to every rule....but do you not drive because some people that do have had an accident?

I think its fair to say your cousin may not want to carry with a round chambered, but to imply its inherently dangerous to do so is incorrect.

[tipoc]

Just a question, lately, and I mean the last few months, I've heard this term being used..."Condition 0". Where did that come from? It's recent.

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also called "cocked and locked", this means that a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety is on.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber, the hammer is uncocked.
Condition 3 - There is no round in the chamber, the hammer is uncocked but a fully loaded magazine is inserted in the mag well.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, the hammer is uncocked and there is no magazine inserted in the mag we

Now the 4 conditions that most of us are familiar with come from Jeff Cooper and are different from the older "conditions" used by the military regarding the storage of weapons. They apply to sidearms with manual safeties like the 1911, BHP, etc. Clearly they do not apply to striker fired weapons or to guns with decockers both of which are incapable of Condition One. But in the last coupla months I've read a few references to condition 0 where did that come from?

Also under what conditions would a person carry a cocked weapon, with a round in the chamber and no safety engaged? Excluding actual shooting of course.

tipoc

[tipoc]

he was taking his gun out of the holster
his dog jumped on him and the gun went off, luckly my cousin knew what to do to stop the bleeding
the EMT's were surprised he didn't pass out from the loss of blood he was awake when they arrived
so no it's not safe to have one in the chamber. my cousin is lucky to be alive

Either your cousin, or the dog, pulled the trigger.

tipoc

[InRemorse]

I started with a revolver and became interested in trying a semi automatic. The semi automatics with doube action had trigger pulls way too hard to pull. I couldn't see myself hitting anything with that kind of trigger pull. Carrying cocked and loaded with safety on sounded scary, but I'm used to it now. I bought a single action only with a medium trigger pull. Having one in the chamer gives tremendous comfort. I can pull the gun and deactivate the safety with my right thumb in one motion. It's a great ccw, single stack, spare magazine on the other hip.

[jackstinson]

Either your cousin, or the dog, pulled the trigger.
It was the dog.....it's always the dog.
The post said that "the gun went off"...it just went off. How it did so is a total mystery and the dog ain't talking. Guns will sometimes do that you know. It's best to keep it unloaded. Uh huh.......
BTW: The dog ate my homework also.

[John E.]

Hey all,

Is the following condition safe or to be avoided - double action semi-automatic, one in the barrel, hammer down, safety off?

[rbernie]

Is the following condition safe or to be avoided - double action semi-automatic, one in the barrel, hammer down, safety off?Depends on the weapon in question. The 1911, for example, is perfectly safe in this configuration. I do know that many popular DA/SA pistols (e.g. CZ 75B, P226, etc.) have firing pin blocks to help facilitate safe carry of the pistol with the hammer down. The theory is that, since the firing pin can't move while the trigger is not being pulled, you can have the hammer down and still not have a blow to the hammer push the firing pin into the primer and cause a discharge.

[Davionmaximus]

How do you discharge a Glock removing it from the holster?? The only way I can think is if he put his finger on the trigger.
I carry a Glock 19. Just have to pay attention. Always. Too easy to become casual.

[John E.]

Depends on the weapon in question.

In this case, an Astra .380

[TIMC]

One in the pipe is the only way I carry. My prefered carry weapon is a 1911. I own a Glock but I don't really care to carry it even though I know they are perfectly safe to carry if you pay attention and have a good holster.

[rbernie]

In this case, an Astra .380If it's a Constable (or any of the 300/400/600 series), it does not have a firing pin block. The only way to see if it's safe to carry hammer-down is to determine if the firing pin protrudes into the chamber when the hammer is fully lowered. If it does not, then it should be safe.

But you'll need to be very crisp in terms of determining if the firing pin can touch the primer with the hammer down.

[lesterg3]

With my pistols I believe that it is safe to have one in the tube.

With me, my left hand is partially disabled and while I am still pretty quick with it I feel safer not having to rack one in.

[John E.]

But you'll need to be very crisp in terms of determining if the firing pin can touch the primer with the hammer down.

rbernie, thanks for the info - I believe is a Constable, I'll verify when I get home.

How do I go about testing this? I'll go to safety on in the meantime.

[wrs840]

For Autos with decocker safeties, It seems that the carry-position intended by the design would be condition two. I'm wondering what arguments there may be against that. It seems like a good idea to me.

Les

[shooter1]

Can't believe this topic keeps coming up! Anyone carrying a firearm has an obligation to learn how to handle and operate it safely. I have seen several "Unintended Discharges" in my 50+years of shooting and more than half that carrying a gun for a living. I can only recall two that would be an "Accidental Discharge", one a broken firing pin on a 1911, the other a slam fire on an M-16. All the others were "Negligent Discharges". All caused by mishandling of the firearm. I carry any firearm fully loaded and ready for immediate use regardless of type. I would suggest anyone not prepared to do the same rethink why they carry in the first place
str1

[rbernie]

For Autos with decocker safeties, It seems that the carry-position intended by the design would be condition two. I'm wondering what arguments there may be against that. It seems like a good idea to me.
Usually, an auto with a decocker has a firing pin block, designed to keep the hammer from hitting the firing pin into the primer inadvertently should the hammer notch break. You could make the argument that the firing pin block safety could break from the blow that broke the hammer notch, but that kind of cascade failure would seem to be pretty far-fetched.

I carried my Sigs decocked and reliant upon this safety system for many years without fear. How many ADs have you heard of from Sigs that had their hammer and FP safeties broken?

How do I go about testing this? You can remove the firing pin and measure it; if its shorter than the channel in which it resides, then it cannot protrude from both ends (hammer-side and chamber-side) simultaneously. Alternately, you can insert a brass rod or similar down the barrel of an UNLOADED gun and see if it moves when the hammer is gently decocked to rest on the firing pin stop.

Measuring the firing pin and firing pin channel is the best way to know.

[Cap'n Jack Burntbeard]

I carry my Ruger P97DC with the chamber empty, since it has no safety, just a decocker.:uhoh:
If it had a decock safety like an M9 then i would carry with one in the pipe.

[Justin]

If you are carrying a weapon with an empty chamber, it indicates that you have not been taught or trained on that weapon to a degree that is adequate. If you've had negligent discharge with that weapon, you are very plainly either in need of further training, or are choosing to ignore basic safety procedures.

In either case, you really should take a proper safety class that focuses on proper use of a defensive pistol.

If you're still uncomfortable, then change your method of carry and/or your pistol.

For as long as I've been an admin here, you'd think I'd be inured to threads like this. But, quite frankly, every time a discussion like this comes up I'm flabbergasted at the number of people who carry a defensive pistol but don't seem to even possess a basic grasp of how to safely handle a pistol.

[Mainsail]

Carrying with the chamber empty means you are assuming that you will always have both hands free if you should be thrust into a self defense situation. I carry openly every day and I seldom have both hands free. My off-hand is often holding a laptop, umbrella, phone, camera, or whatever else.

Without starting an off-topic argument, it is dangerous for simple, carless, or stupid people to carry firearms (or any other dangerous items). All guns ARE NOT always loaded, if they were we couldn’t and wouldn’t be able to dry-fire, clean, or function check them. Simple people simplified the rule from “All guns are always loaded until you have positively verified that they are not” down to “All guns are always loaded”. They lie. They say one thing (all guns are always loaded) but their very actions (dry-firing etc) prove they really don’t believe the rule. If you are willing to bend the rules from time to time because “you know better” then you are complacent or careless. Know the rules - follow the rules, that’s how you stay safe. If the rule, as written, is too complex for someone to understand, they need more training or they are too inept to safely handle a firearm.

Guns do not ‘just go off’ anymore (if they ever did). A modern firearm properly handled, carried, or stored cannot discharge accidently. As has been mentioned, if you are uncomfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, get some training. If you can safely operate a motor vehicle fully fueled and running, a little handgun shouldn’t be any more difficult.

[dontshakepandas]

My carry gun always has one in the chamber. Why? Because I can't get two in the chamber...

Ok, really, carry however you want, but with proper handling and by following the four rules every gun is safe. Without proper handling and by breaking the four rules, every gun is unsafe. That means it is all up to you. If you don't like that responsibility, it is time to sell your guns.

[KBintheSLC]

It is safe as long as you are safe. No gun/holster combo will save you if you can't keep your finger off the trigger when drawing. Eventually, it will lead to a neg discharge. Just practice proper safe handling techniques and then you can keep one in the chamber. In my 25 years of shooting, I have never seen a gun that fires on its own... even when it gets dropped.

[SigSauerIsBetter]

I had someone tell me not to get my SERPA holster because it makes you press down and your finger naturally goes onto the trigger...

My finger doesn't go onto the trigger until I am ready to destroy whatever is down range. Muscle memory is a good thing.

[ScareyH22A]

Wrong... your trigger finger will be completely extended as you draw your weapon from a SERPA.

[lordmegatron]

the gun was in his hand.. when bo
jumped on him his hand came down
that's when he shot himself

[Marcus84]

I understand it's all about the user but why do some people say that striker-fired weapons are more prone to NDs?

[dmazur]

Just a question, lately, and I mean the last few months, I've heard this term being used..."Condition 0". Where did that come from? It's recent.

I don't know the answer to this one, but I'm curious as well. It's not mentioned in "The Modern Technique of the Pistol" (Morrison/Cooper), which lists four modes of carry.

Maybe the reason why it wasn't mentioned is because it isn't a mode of carry, it's "firing mode".

Interestingly, that book says that Condition 2 is a safe mode of carry, as long as the hammer is fully down. (Ignoring modern concerns of "how do you safely get the pistol in Condition 2?")

Here's a link that claims Col. Cooper did use that term -

1911 Conditions (http://www.sightm1911.com/Care/1911_conditions.htm)

I don't have a full set of everything Col. Cooper wrote, so I can't refute the attribution.

[Knightrider03m]

Mines always have one in the chamber. Thats the only way for me.

[lordmegatron]

i was at costello's in cincinnati
they said one in the chamber is a mistake

[Mike Honcho]

I think carrying with a unchambered round puts yourself at a serious disadvantage in a pressure situation. When I carry my 1911, it's with the hammer back and ready to roll. Responsible holstering is a must with most firearms. Finger on the trigger when you want to fire, otherwise don't do it.

[dmazur]

they said one in the chamber is a mistake

One in the chamber is a different condition of readiness, not a mistake.

Negligent discharges are mistakes.

I believe many are trying for a logical conclusion where one does not exist -- carrying in a different condition of readiness is not, in and of itself, unsafe. Improper gun handling, including drawing/reholstering and administrative tasks like loading/unloading and cleaning, are the cause of ND's, IMO.

The Colt manual that used to come with Series 80's danced around the issue by saying you should carry in Condition 3 "when carrying the pistol ready for use" and Condition 1 "when you must be prepared to use the pistol immediately without warning".

Of course, other sections of the user's manual state that, to "minimize risk of unintentional discharge, load the pistol with live ammunition only when you intend to shoot it." Colt's attorneys managed to come up with a list of 33 cautions for the Series 80, too.

This can be debated endlessly, and without much gain. I believe the important point to take away from any "condition of carry" discussion is that the ultimate safety device is the user. (Sometimes referred to as the safety between your ears.) If there is a loose nut behind the trigger, an accident is far more likely to happen. :)

[tipoc]

dmazur,

Thanks for the link, I had not seen their listing of Condition 0 before. I do think it's more recent as I don't recall seeing it anywhere until recently. I could be wrong of course so I'll keep an eye out for it.

Interestingly, that book says that Condition 2 is a safe mode of carry, as long as the hammer is fully down. (Ignoring modern concerns of "how do you safely get the pistol in Condition 2?")

Concern about lowering the hammer on a live round for Condition 2 is a more modern safety concern. Decades back folks did not consider it unsafe to do so. I have a couple of older manuals for the Browning Hi-Power which instruct shooters on how to safely do so and Browning used to recommend it as an alternate carry mode.

tipoc

[JWJacobVT]

I prefer to carry my BHP in condition 2, when I carry it. I normally carry my S&W 1006, round chambered safety on. This is on and off duty.

[LWC]

I carry my Ruger P97DC with the chamber empty, since it has no safety, just a decocker.
If it had a decock safety like an M9 then i would carry with one in the pipe.
Then you are carrying it wrong - The gun is designed to be carried with one in the chamber that's why it has a decocker lever. I carry my P91DC with one in the chamber at all times, it's no different than carrying a revolver - don't pull the trigger and it can't go off.

[moooose102]

i always carry with one in the tube. @ 1 point, when i pulled my 45 off my hip (at night) i found that somehow, the safety had been flipped to "fire". i am not sure how or when this happened, but bottom line is, keep your finger off the happy switch and you will be fine. my lcp is always carried with one in the tube also. if you need your weapon, chances are, you are not going to have time to rack one into the chamber.:what:

[Justin]

I understand it's all about the user but why do some people say that striker-fired weapons are more prone to NDs?

Only if you're not following basic safety procedure.

the gun was in his hand.. when bo
jumped on him his hand came down
that's when he shot himself

So, what you're describing is basically a freak accident. Had he been more mindful of his circumstances (enthusiastic dog,loaded gun) it would have been easy to avoid ND'ing into his leg.

i was at costello's in cincinnati
they said one in the chamber is a mistake

I don't know what Costello's is (I assume a gun shop.) However, modern pistols are designed to be carried with a round in the chamber.

If you are uncomfortable with doing this, you need to cease carrying immediately, and re-assess your training and/or choice of sidearm.

[wrs840]

I carry my Ruger P97DC with the chamber empty, since it has no safety, just a decocker.
If it had a decock safety like an M9 then i would carry with one in the pipe.

I don't understand the difference between a "decocker" and a "decock safety". I thought a decocker is itself "the" safety. Could someone who can explain this please help me out?

Thanks,
Les

[Gunfighter123]

During a draw {for ANY reason } --- it's finger OFF the trigger ,it's finger OFF the trigger,it's finger OFF the trigger,it's finger OFF the trigger !!!

[DrDyno]

My first CWP was in New York State in 1974. Prior to that I served in Vietnam. Since then, I have owned many firearms and have a current CWP in Florida. Point is, although I am not a police officer nor active military, I have a reasonable amount of hand gun experience.

What troubles me about this thread is the "gunslinger" attitude informing some of your responses. To say that anyone who elects to carry a weapon without a chambered round either needs more training or shouldn't carry at all sounds like a testosterone-driven statement to me. IMO, the police should carry with a round chambered and active military in a combat zone should carry with a round chambered. The rest of us should exercise a great deal of care with this decision.

I have a Glock and I would never carry it with a round chambered. You can all hoot and holler about what a pussy I must be but, then again, you weren't in Pleiku during TET of 1968.

To say that a round-chambered Glock is as safe as a revolver is pure nonsense. It's almost as safe as a hammerless revolver but not nearly as safe as a standard revolver. When a Glock trigger is activated, you can not see and can barely feel internal movement. When a revolver trigger is activated you can see a cylinder turning; you can see a hammer moving; and, you can feel these various stages in the trigger.

As to the basis of this thread, unless you're a police officer or active military (or the gentleman with the disabled hand), carrying your Glock with a round chambered is, IMO, an act of a misinformed ego. There are too many alternative weapons that can be carried chambered and safely decocked to choose a Glock for chambered carry.

Get a grip!

John
St. Petersburg, FL

[rcmodel]

I don't understand the difference between a "decocker" and a "decock safety". I thought a decocker is itself "the" safety. Could someone who can explain this please help me out?Early DA designs like the Walther PPK & P-38, S&W 39 series, etc. used a decocker / safety.

When you put the safety on, it de-cocked the hammer and the safety stayed on, until you manually took it back off safe.

A true de-cocker decocks the gun, then returns to off-safe when you let it go.

It wont stay on safe.

rc

[chuckusaret]

I have carried with a round chambered for years and have never had a problem.

[Dan Crocker]

You can all hoot and holler about what a pussy I must be but, then again, you weren't in Pleiku during TET of 1968.

Don't assume you're the only one who has seen a war, guy. I really don't care of you do or don't toss one in the tube. I will carry my Glock that way...and there's nothing you can do to stop me!

[Sailor99]

DrDyno, being retired from the military, I totally concur with you. All these statements from some of the more, hell, I will just say it, bozos, about not carrying a semi without a round in the chamber would make me laugh, except for the fact that this is the cause of a lot of accidents, and just gives the anti-s more fuel about gun crazed idiots. They also must never have heard of Murphy's Law. I selected both of my semi's partially based on the fact that they have mechanical safetys. I do carry a revolver sometimes, but the next chamber is empty, in case the trigger somehow accidentally gets pulled. And I do have a warped sense of humor, so if I did have to use the revolver, I would love to see the look on the bad guys face when the first trigger pull went click, and then the next one...didn't. I have handled firearms since i was 7, owned my first shotgun at 14, 30-06 at 16, small arms qualified in the military, and qualified on a lot of stuff that made really big booms...but I guess I am a wimp and not qualified since I don't carry one in the chamber.

[ArmedBear]

I have no problem with one in the chamber, IF the gun is designed to provide margins of safety.

Not all gun designs are created equal.

[Deanimator]

I have a Glock and I would never carry it with a round chambered. You can all hoot and holler about what a pussy I must be but, then again, you weren't in Pleiku during TET of 1968.
And that has precisely ZERO relevance to my carrying for personal defense in Cuyahoga County, Ohio in 2009.

If it DID, I'd be carrying an M16 or an M79, NOT a handgun, or certainly not JUST a handgun.

As to the basis of this thread, unless you're a police officer or active military (or the gentleman with the disabled hand), carrying your Glock with a round chambered is, IMO, an act of a misinformed ego. There are too many alternative weapons that can be carried chambered and safely decocked to choose a Glock for chambered carry.
Carrying a Glock without a chambered round, for the "reasons" you state, is an act of timidity, and fundamental lack of understanding of your firearm.

You carry any way you want. As for me, I don't plan to find out whether I can chamber a round one handed while trying to fend off somebody with a claw hammer or a butcher knife, nevermind a firearm.

[rainbowbob]

the gun was in his hand.. when bo
jumped on him his hand came down
that's when he shot himself

Sorry...but "his hand came down" still doesn't explain how your cousin's finger activated the trigger. I am unable to envision a scenario - dog or not - in which a finger OUTSIDE the trigger guard gets INSIDE the trigger guard and pulls the trigger.

This story only makes sense if your cousin's finger was inside the trigger guard when the dog jumped on him. In which case, the ND had nothing to do with carrying a round in the chamber, nothing to do with the dog, and EVERYTHING to do with poor gun handling protocols.


I have a Glock and I would never carry it with a round chambered. You can all hoot and holler about what a pussy I must be but, then again, you weren't in Pleiku during TET of 1968.

Ya got me there DrDyno...I wasn't in Pleiku in 1968 - so I guess my opinion is invalidated. Come to think of it...I don't even own a bottom-feeder - so what do I know?

All I know is that my revolver goes bang when I pull the trigger. I wouldn't carry a firearm that didn't. What would be the point? A violent assault can happen in the blink of an eye. It is likely you won't have the time - or a free hand - to chamber a round. I hope NEVER to have to use my firearm under duress. But if I do - I want it to respond INSTANTLY. That makes me a "gunslinger"?

According to your logic, not carrying a firearm at all would be MUCH safer. Carry yours however you want - or not at all - but don't insult those who insist on being prepared to defend themselves and their loved ones against criminal violence.

[ArmedBear]

I personally would be apprehensive about carrying a Glock with one in the chamber. I think there are better designs now, that offer similar fast deployment to the Glock (which was admittedly the only kid on the block when it was introduced and for some time afterward).

However, my answer to that is not to carry it with an empty chamber. It's to buy a different gun that I feel more comfortable carrying in a ready state.

For those who feel the reflexive need to insist that Glocks are God's own guns and that I have some personal issues because I don't worship at the altar of Gaston, remember: that's for ME to decide. You carry what you want. I don't care. Just don't point it at me (whatever kind of gun it is).

[Deanimator]

I do carry a revolver sometimes, but the next chamber is empty, in case the trigger somehow accidentally gets pulled.
Yeah, you never want to have too MUCH firepower when responding to a deadly force attack on yourself. Heck, if you're carrying a 5 shot revolver and there are two guys trying to kill you and two shots a piece isn't enough, you deserve to die!

Do you also have only enough gas in your car for a car thief to get to the end of the block before he runs out?

[ArmedBear]

Deanimator: What do you give a **** about what someone else chooses to do?

If he ends up dead because he has one empty chamber, well, you'll have the last laugh. If you shoot yourself in the balls with your CCW gun, well, I guess he will.

Geez.

Personally, I chamber a round but I skip the first round in the magazine:uhoh:.

[Deanimator]

If he ends up dead because he has one empty chamber, well, you'll have the last laugh. If you shoot yourself in the balls with your CCW gun, well, I guess he will.
If you think that's a serious possibility, then your testicles are definitely in a different place than mine are.

[skeeter_08]

I've seen all kinds of opinions on this subject, some of which I agree with, others I don't. Regardless of how experienced you are, or think you are, with firearms, if you have any doubt about what is safe or unsafe regarding handling of a firearm, please make it a point to enroll yourself, or suggest that anyone else enroll themselves in either the NRA Basic Pistol Shooting Course (I attended this course) or the NRA FIRST Steps Pistol Orientation course, and the qualified NRA instructor running the course will set you straight! - skeeter_08

[ArmedBear]

If you think that's a serious possibility, then your testicles are definitely in a different place than mine are.

Or my pistol.:D

I've thought about getting a Smart Carry, but the idea does make me a bit...uncomfortable. I think I'd want something with a grip safety, no round in the chamber, a manual safety, a mag disconnect, and a 10 lb. trigger...:p

http://www.smartcarry.com/images/photo5.jpg

[DrDyno]

Dan Crocker: Don't assume you're the only one who has seen a war, guy. I really don't care of you do or don't toss one in the tube. I will carry my Glock that way...and there's nothing you can do to stop me!

Geez, Dan, have at it! Just, please for your own sake, be more careful with your Glock than your spelling!!

Deanimator:

"I have a Glock and I would never carry it with a round chambered. You can all hoot and holler about what a pussy I must be but, then again, you weren't in Pleiku during TET of 1968."

And that has precisely ZERO relevance to my carrying for personal defense in Cuyahoga County, Ohio in 2009.

"As to the basis of this thread, unless you're a police officer or active military (or the gentleman with the disabled hand), carrying your Glock with a round chambered is, IMO, an act of a misinformed ego. There are too many alternative weapons that can be carried chambered and safely decocked to choose a Glock for chambered carry."

Carrying a Glock without a chambered round, for the "reasons" you state, is an act of timidity, and fundamental lack of understanding of your firearm.


Dean, The reference to my Vietnam experience was not to add relevance. It was to add credibility. The purpose was not to take anything away from you. It is simply to point out that I am not afraid of guns and have had my share of experience.

The reasons I stated for the general public not carrying a round-chambered Glock has nothing to do with "timidity, and fundamental lack, etc." (Please refer to my 1967-1968 experience! Or, better yet, just watch me get my ass kicked here and my continuing to stand ground). Again, it has nothing to do with timidity. It has to do with the Glock's lack of any meaningful safety. The fact that the New York Police Department requires a "New York Trigger" on all of its Glocks is testament to the high incidence of accidental discharge. If you want to argue that Glocks are as safe as pistols equipped with decocker safeties, argue away. If you want to argue that Glocks are as safe as hammered revolvers, go for it! I don't have to argue with you, NYPD has already settled the argument.

Patiently,

John
St. Petersburg, FL

[Silk Man]

The problem arises when you do something uncharacteristic.Example. You carry your weapon unchambered fo 5 years solid and one day you decide to 'cock n' lock 'Your mind is programmed to do things a certain way.Best advice is to follow Safety procedures and always stick to your trained habit of carrying.Either way is best for the individual trained and rehearsed therein.

[JWJacobVT]

Have you ever seen the NYPD shoot? You don't even want to be in the same county. Nothing personal but most folks these days getting into police work have little or no firearms training. What they get at the academy is basic at best, and then they might shoot/Qualify once a year. The handgun sometimes never leaves the holster until then. Wife's cousin in major florida department comes home takes off duty belt and locks whole thing in safe. He gets to range once every couple years, if the department has funding. He knows very little about the handgun he is carrying. He had to pull a round from magazine to tell me the caliber. Some of the military folks are not much better. Have a former Marine coworker that until a few months ago Never fired a handgun, then he had to qualify with one(revolver) and it took him a while. I saw more UIDs in the sandbox, than I can remember. Yes privates up to and including Generals.

[Deanimator]

The fact that the New York Police Department requires a "New York Trigger" on all of its Glocks is testament to the high incidence of accidental discharge.
The "New York Trigger" is a direct result of the perennially low standard of firearms training in the NYPD. Years ago, there was an article in "Guns" or "American Handgunner" by a guy hired as a marksmanship consultant to the NYPD. According to him, the average NYC cop was not acquainted with the concept of the front sight of his firearm as an aiming device.

I've known cops with a very high standard of firearms skill. I've also known cops who shouldn't be allowed to own, much less carry a plastic spork.

Assuming particular expertise in the law or firearms on the part of LEOs whom you don't personally know is about as wise as shooting a stranger's reloads. The potential downsides VASTLY outweigh any possible benefits.

[rainbowbob]

NYPD has already settled the argument...

Oh yes indeedy, DrDyno...whatever they do in NY MUST be the definitive answer for all things firearm related.


You can all hoot and holler about what a pussy I must be but, then again, you weren't in Pleiku during TET of 1968...

...The reference to my Vietnam experience...was to add credibility.

It would seem your reference to your service in Nam was to declare that anyone who wasn't there has no right to call you a "pussy" - which, by-the-way, nobody has. You assumed you were going to take that kind of flack for your position and wanted to preempt it. Right?

[Isher]

Re: Decockers

A lot of interesting comments here.

The CZ P-01 is my everyday carry gun. It has a decocker.

And I carry one in the pipe, in the decocked condition.

The advantages (other than the CZ being a nifty, accurate, and reliable weapon)

Are these:

1.) Once the weapon, with one in pipe, is in decock mode, you cannot accidentally shift the decock lever to put it into a potentially unsafe condition. As a matter of fact, you cannot manually shift the decock lever at all. A safety can be intentionally or accidentally shifted from one condition to another at any time.

2.) What you can do, in this condition, is either pull the trigger and fire the weapon in double action mode or bring the weapon into full-cock condition, pending a further decision.

3.) Or you can bring the weapon into full-cock condition, and engage the trigger while physically letting the hammer down into a no-cock condition. If you fumble finger this process, there is a possibility of a negligent discharge.

4.) None of the holsters I use leave the trigger exposed.


As far as I'm concerned, this is the safest manner of concealed carry I have ever run across assuming that you want to bring the weapon to bear, and be fired, in the shortest time possible.

Mind you, I went the semi auto route because I've got 15 rounds in the weapon and another 28 in two spare clips.


isher

[tipoc]

I don't understand the difference between a "decocker" and a "decock safety". I thought a decocker is itself "the" safety. Could someone who can explain this please help me out?

It's useful sometimes to read the manuals for handguns. Your own of course, but also for some other designs. These are often available on line from the manufacturers in PDF format and are downloadable for reference. Books help some too.

I'll assume that folks here are mature enough to figure out what their needs and abilities are and base their carrying decisions on these. I can't assume that a fella that decides on a course other than mine is an idiot because they do and it wouldn't occur to me to call them one or imply it.

Some years back I settled on the 1911 and BHP (or CZ75) as my preferred format for pistols. I did this after repeatedly trying to flick the safety off of my Glocks and Sigs and having to look at the gun to see where the thumb safety had gone. The Browning idea work for me.

I've "carried" these guns in all three conditions as the situation called for.

tipoc

[ScareyH22A]

Does any 1911 come with a firing pin block?

[dmazur]

I believe Colt Series 80's and 90's had this feature, which required pulling the trigger to disengage it. It was because the 1911, if dropped from some height onto concrete directly on the muzzle (I think it was 4ft...) could discharge as that inertia was enough to overcome the firing pin spring.

I also think some Kimbers had a similar feature, but used the grip safety to disengage it rather than the trigger. (This was used on some Colts many years ago and was known as the "Schwartz safety".) I think these Kimbers were distinguished by the Series II designation.

Colt has responded to pressure and re-introduced the Series 70's, which don't have this safety.

More info -- I believe Springfield Armory, in a successful attempt to pass drop tests, came out with a lighter firing pin and heavier spring, and no additional "trick" parts.

The firing pin interlock (or "safety" as some call it) does afford an additional measure of protection against accidental discharge if someone drops their pistol. It really isn't a separate safety, as it is linked to other devices which automatically disengage it.

[sig87]

Not only is it safe I believe it is the only way to carry. If you have to cock the gun you waste to much time. I agree with the others if you cant carry loaded. you need more time with your gun be for you carry it. I have a Sig p225 with no safety and do not think any thing about it. An unloaded gun is no good.

[30mag]

Would you carry a six-shooter with only five shells in it?

[ArmedBear]

Would you carry a six-shooter with only five shells in it?

Absolutely, if it's something like a Single Action Army or a 3-screw Ruger.

But, as with a number of my comments about safety features, it's really easy to find a high-quality single action with a transfer bar, so there's not all that much of a reason to carry a 5-shooter if you don't want to.

[ScareyH22A]

Thanks dmazur! That was very informative :)

[putteral]

Always carry with one in the chamber in all my pistols unless I change my name to Plexico.
:evil:

[Kentucky Kernel]

I agree whole-heartedly with being prepared to shoot almost immediately, with one hand. I own a 1911, but I carry a 38 revolver for this very reason. If I need to push off/block/defend myself with one hand, I will need to be able to draw and fire with my other hand. I suspect that most SD shootings are very up-close and personal.

KK

[tipoc]

believe Colt Series 80's and 90's had this feature, which required pulling the trigger to disengage it. It was because the 1911, if dropped from some height onto concrete directly on the muzzle (I think it was 4ft...) could discharge as that inertia was enough to overcome the firing pin spring.

Actually it was 10 feet onto concrete. And at that it was with standard firing pin springs nowdays extrapower springs are available.

During WWII Smith and Wesson was required to install a hammer safety block in their revolvers due to 2 accidents when Navy personel dropped their revolvers onto the steel decks of ships and they discharged. All S&W wheelguns have had these since then. Colt had them in their revolvers from a few decades earlier. Interestingly the military did not require any such blocks in the 1911 as they did not need them. Even when dropped onto a steel deck from 6 feet a cocked but not locked 1911 would not accidentaly discharge. Colt produced hammer firing pin blocks only in their commercial models.

tipoc

[wrs840]

It's useful sometimes to read the manuals for handguns. Your own of course, but also for some other designs. These are often available on line from the manufacturers in PDF format and are downloadable for reference. Books help some too.

I'll assume that folks here are mature enough to figure out what their needs and abilities are and base their carrying decisions on these. I can't assume that a fella that decides on a course other than mine is an idiot because they do and it wouldn't occur to me to call them one or imply it.

What a passive-aggressive hoot you are, tipoc. Yes, I could download and read some manuals. I've only owned 1911 and BHP style auto-loaders, being mostly a revolver-guy, so I thought it might also be acceptable to ask the mostly kind and helpful folks here on THR about differences in decockers, having only recently acquired a used, no-manual S&W 5904.

In other words, I guess wasn't asking you.

Thanks anyway,

Les

[MedWheeler]

Note my sig.

[dmazur]

tipoc -

Thanks. I knew the story, but not some of the details.

On a related note, I think it is interesting how Marlin and Winchester both decided that lever-action rifles (traditional, with exposed hammers) were somehow unsafe because of a similar concern about lowering the hammer on a chambered round.

Winchester came up with a rebounding hammer, which was a pretty good idea, then added a tang safety to really make something simple complicated. Apparently you are supposed to slide the safety on before trying to lower the hammer or unload. I can't remember the user's manual, but I think you were also supposed to leave it on while cocking, then flick it off.

Marlin did something with a cross-bolt button that blocked the hammer. It also tended to block the hammer when you didn't want it blocked, with the result that a lot of owners either removed it or disabled it with an O-ring.

I'm in favor of safeties that actually work, but they should not impair the function of the firearm.

So, back to the thread, I think the Series 80 and 90 are improvements. A very slight risk eliminated by blocking the firing pin so dropping it from a great height onto a hard surface results only in a marred finish.

[rainbowbob]

I think about things like my idiot brother in law picking it up while I'm in the bathroom...

Then why on earth would you leave a firearm laying around where an "idiot" could get his hands on it?

[Clarence]

It isn't smart for your friend to carry with one in the chamber as he has obviously demonstrated.

On the other hand, I carry in Condition 1 exclusively..........and I have never had a ND

[Mainsail]

…my idiot brother in law picking it up while I'm in the bathroom and accidentally putting a new hole in my wife or my kids

The past year I've been carrying a Taurus with a thumb safety on the side of the slide.

Well, I suppose if he’s that much of an idiot he’ll never figure out how that works. :rolleyes:

So you’re comfortable leaving your Taurus with the thumb safety lying around?

[ArchAngelCD]

He was carrying a glock so there was no safety
The only safety you really need is between your ears.

Lest see, the OP made this thread the same day he/she registered to the forum and hasn't been back since... Smells a little fishy to me...

[DoubleAction]

I read statements about the Decockers on the Sig Sauers. The Decocker on these pistols safely lowers the hammer, while disengaging the sear, and activating the passive firing block. In order to unlock the in incorporated safeties of the Sig Sauers, simply apply pressure to the trigger.

Many idiots make the mistake of lowering the hammer manually, this by passes all the safety lock work on this pistol, rendered the pistol unsafe.

[DoubleAction]

In the old days when using a SA gun the cowboys left an empty chamber in their gun so they didn't have the firing pin against a shell ready for the hammer to make it go off.


It about safety and knowing your weapon. In order for a Colt single revolver's hammer to rest on a empty chamber, the cylinder has loaded as such, this can accomplish like this. Load the first round into the cylinder, skip the second chamber, load the 3rd chamber, then the 4th, 5th, and
the 6th chamber. Now safely lower the hammer to find it resting on a empty chamber. The six shooter Colt has just became a five shooter, for sake of safe carry.

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc177/DoubleAction77/SA%20Revolvers/Trailboss01.jpg

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc177/DoubleAction77/SA%20Revolvers/StagC.jpg



The Sig Sauer Trigger Bar

This is Trigger Bar and it's relationship with the trigger.
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc177/DoubleAction77/D%20A%20Autos/Trigger12.jpg

You now see how the trigger bar is deactivated from contact with the passive firing block.The Trigger Bar will be move upward upon the movement of the the trigger.
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc177/DoubleAction77/D%20A%20Autos/226Trigger040.jpg

The Bar works much like the disconnector on a 1911 assuring the the slide is full battery before the lock work is engaged. Another safety feature,
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc177/DoubleAction77/D%20A%20Autos/Trigger14.jpg

The Trigger Bar at rest and deactivated from contact with the passive firing block.
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc177/DoubleAction77/D%20A%20Autos/226Trigger02.jpg

[wrs840]

Okie dokie!

Today (I think) I've figured out the difference between a decock-safety and a decocker:

My S&W 5904 (in Beretta 92 fashion), has a decocker-safety that drops the hammer and sear block, and also deactivates the trigger until the lever is snapped back up off of the "safety" position. A Sig-type decocker drops the hammer and sear-block, but then springs back up and returns the trigger to a fire-ready DA condition. Do I have this right?

And... What other autos have the 5904/Beretta decocker-safety configuration?

Sorry I'm so ignorant.

Thanks,

Les

[orionhawk]

I carry with one chambered in everything I carry (1911, XD, Glock, SW442)

I am quite certain I don't want to screw around with racking the slide while fending off an attacking dog or criminal.

I would be happier if I had manual safeties on my Glock and XD, though.

[Zerodefect]

So far we have: 33 votes for carrying combat ready, 4 for empty chamber, 11 for get better training, and 12 for "I like turtles". Give or take, I can't count well on this planet.

Still some points that seem to be missed:

1.) Glocks don't go off unless the trigger is pulled! This has been tested in detail repeatedly. You can cock a Glock and drag it behind your truck on a dirt road and it'll still be cocked when you stop. This goes for the the XD, MP, SR9 as well.

1911's will not go off unless the trigger is pulled and the frame is squeezed.

Neither of these is possible in a decent holster.

2.) Keep the gun in a good holster. With my 1911 or Glock in a MTAC holster I cant get the gun to go off. Safety on/off, it deosn't matter. Would one of the empty chamber guys explain to me how to get these to go off on accident. I'm trying, darn things are laughing at my feeble attempts to ND.

3.) We are not trying to be macho. Almost all CCW or Police type defensive shotings go from "Everythings normal, I'm enjoying my day." to "Shots fired!" in less than 5 seconds at less than 10 feet. Every second counts. If you can't defend yourself quickly, your dead. Even the best get surprized. Every dashcam video of a fallen officer or a convenience store/gas station cam, that I've seen, has surprized me how fast it goes bad.

98% of the time you need your CCW, its going to be frightfully close and very, very fast.

4.) We have pistol competitions with set rules for each of 15 stages. Everyone has to do the same general thing in each stage. Sometimes we throw a stage or two requireing empty chamber starts. 98% of our fail to fires occur in this stage after the draw. My point: Your autoloading pistol is more likely to fail to feed and jam when you cock it by hand than when it cycles on its own. This data was odd to all of us. But it happens regularly.

5.) We respect your opinion. If your uncomfortable with one in the pipe thats fine. But it is a serious handicap, and its better to find a way or pistol that you feel better with. Would a revolver be a better idea?


I see alot of questions about types of carry for trigger styles still.

1911's- Cocked and locked, many other style but this is the best usually for CCW in a good holster. The 1911 was originally desighned without a safety. And its still as safe as most pistols even in condition 0. Assuming a good holster and good trigger disipline

Striker fired- Cocked and in a good holster is plenty safe. MTAC, VMII etc....They only go off when you pull the trigger. Kind off like cocked and locked because of the multiple desighn features (notice I did not say safeties) that keep them from fireing until the trigger is pulled.

DA/SA- hammer down, round in chamber, usually have a decocker or decocker&safety to get back to DA. Usually no safety needed if carried hammerdown due to the enormously stiff da pull.


I feel the best way to carry is with training, experience with the type of gun your carrying, disipline, and attention.

No amount of safeties added to a firearm or leaveing the chamber empty will make gun ownership safe for anyone that can't follow the basic rules.

[jwPhotographer]

First and foremost - there is no such thing as a firearm with no safety.

EVERY firearm ever made has a safety....it's right here.

http://www.jwPhotographer.com/misc/safety.png

(EDITED because tipoc makes a very good point below, and I feel I should clarify...)

That said, if you're not carrying one in the pipe when you are carrying a weapon intended to be the primary source of defense in a threat situation - what are you planning to do if a threat presents itself? Some fancy draw-while-charging maneuver? Asking the threat to please wait for a second while you charge your weapon?

There's no reason NOT to carry one in the chamber when carrying a weapon specifically for self-defense, other than being uncomfortable with the "safety" of that situation. If that's the case - then probably best not to carry at all.

[tipoc]

I may have said this before but Condition 3 can be a useful way to "carry" a 1911 or BHP, etc. if you have no need to bring the gun into action immediately. Especially if there are small children around and you are on a boat, camping in a tent with the gun in your sleeping bag, hunting where the handgun is not the primary weapon, etc.

Grown folk can decide this for themselves.

tipoc

[luzyfuerza]

We have all seen shooters of all ages, weights, genders, and sizes who can't keep their finger off of the trigger when they are loading, unloading, examining, uncasing....etc. Keeping the finger off the trigger is doubly difficult in stressful situations unless you've trained for this eventuality.

The decision is simple: if you don't think that you have trained yourself well enough to keep your finger off of the trigger and you want to carry, then don't carry with one in the pipe. If you have paid the price to train yourself to do this correctly (and to maintain this skill) then feel free to carry with one in the pipe.

Its really simple...the decision is yours!!

[JohnKSa]

A person who has to admit he's unable to keep his finger off the trigger when he doesn't want it to be there is admitting he's unable to follow the basic rules of gun safety.

A person who can't follow the basic rules of gun safety should not be handling or carrying a gun. Trying to compensate by leaving the chamber empty may delay the catastrophe for awhile but it won't prevent the inevitable outcome unless the person NEVER, EVER loads the chamber of the pistol.

[Dan Crocker]

I carry my gun with 2 bullets in the chamber. It's double effective that way.

[fiddletown]

So far we have: 33 votes for carrying combat ready, 4 for empty chamber, 11 for get better training, and 12 for "I like turtles"....I carry (when I legally can) with a round in the chamber, but I also like turtles and think people should get training. What line am I in?

We have all seen shooters of all ages, weights, genders, and sizes who can't keep their finger off of the trigger when they are loading, unloading, examining, uncasing....etc. Keeping the finger off the trigger is doubly difficult in stressful situations unless you've trained for this eventuality....One is indeed supposed to train. If someone can't practice basic, safe gun handling, what the heck is he doing with a gun?

[2075 RAMI]

I've kicked this idea around in my head ever since I received my CCW. There are those who think that seconds count and that taking the time to pull the slide back or disengaging the safety could cost you your life if things went south in a hurry. Maybe they are correct.

However, I choose to carry with all my rounds sitting in my magazine. No matter how careful you may be, accidents happen. This prevents accidental discharges like the one your friend experienced.

*Public Service Announcement - Always treat your firearms as if they are chambered and without any type of safety.* :D

Remember, you can't recall a bullet once it has been fired. :uhoh:

[JohnKSa]

There are those who think that seconds count and that taking the time to pull the slide back or disengaging the safety could cost you your life if things went south in a hurry. Maybe they are correct.Whether they're correct or not they're missing the more important issues associated with chamber empty carry.

1. Based on the results from the two 1000 rounds matches I've seen, manually chambering a round is a relatively error prone procedure. Failures to feed during this process easily outnumber failures to feed encountered during a shot string. Carrying chamber empty means you'll be performing a relatively error prone procedure under stress and at a time when you really don't need to screw up. In the last match, one shooter accidentally engaged the safety while racking the slide--twice.

2. You may not have two hands free. Yes, you CAN rack the slide on most autopistols without using a second hand, but that makes the procedure even more error prone and slower. It also usually depends on the type of clothing you're wearing, to some extent as well as the various aspects of the firearm to make the procedure work properly. Better think it all through and practice. A LOT.

3. It's NOISY. Yes, I know that many people think that racking a slide is a great deterrent/repellent for criminals, but it's not terribly hard to construct a very reasonable scenario in which getting your gun ready for action silently would be critical. Carrying chamber empty means you eliminate that option.

IMO people who carry chamber empty often overestimate or exaggerate the danger of having a round chambered and underestimate or downplay the disadvantages of having to chamber a round when the gun is needed.

[Zerodefect]

+1 John.


Also something I learned during a comp, Having to manually work the slide on a 1911 or Glock with an recoil spring 2 pounds stiffer than stock, covered in sweat, with skakey adrenalin filled hands is alot trickier than it seems.

I was ahead in a match and had to tap, rack, bang, so it was hardly real adrenalin, but they were all watching, so it wasn't like it was without pressure. Felt like it took forever.

[SharpsDressedMan]

Very important to take finger out of the trigger guard when reholstering a Glock........

[WC145]

Very important to take finger out of the trigger guard when reholstering a Glock........

Yeah, if you don't it won't fit in the holster and you end up starting a thread like this one.

I like turtles.

[dmazur]

I didn't create this image, but I can't resist -

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb212/pacific1927/1911-A1.jpg

[easyg]

"Because a Glock will go off in your pants"
....but only if you, or your girlfriend, "fingers the trigger". ;)

[CorpITGuy]

In most situations, your reaction time must be less than 2 seconds. That's not enough time to clear leather, jack the slide, aim and squeeze the trigger.

This is why you should be very experienced at handling your Glock (or any firearm) before you carry it.

[NavyLT]

Very important to take finger out of the trigger guard when reholstering a Glock........

But with other brands of firearms it's OK?!?

[dmazur]

With a 1911 (or any pistol with a true safety which isn't part of the trigger), if you "space" things and don't maintain trigger discipline when reholstering, your finger gets pinched. PROVIDED that you have remembered to flick the safety on...

What is more likely, IMO, is that a shirt tail, etc. gets caught in the trigger area when reholstering. With a true safety, no harm done. With a "safe action" that can be deactivated by the foreign object, ND is possible.

[SuperFlanker]

i carry for a double action first shot safety off. that's over 10 pounds of trigger pull on a stock USP. There is no way that thing is going off by accident.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I carry a hot handloaded H-P chambered in both my Makarov and Beretta .32acp (both fairly stiff triggers and safetys) and fmj in the magazine.

[Col. Plink]

This is probably the most inportant thread discussion to have on a site like THR. With so many new shooters (and carriers!:eek:) and different configurations of firing mechanisms and safeties, an exhaustive discussion is CRITICAL. Thanks to all those Who are tryng to add coherent reasoning to such an important topic. I have been thinking about this a lot because I want a CHL for Tejas and would want to be able to respond to a bad situation quickly without complicated (read: two-handed) maneuvers.

BUT...

I have a pistol that (when a round is chambered) can be fired by ONE intentional or unintentional move. It is a striker-fired pistol without what I call a mechanical safety (i.e. one that prevents firing when the trigger is squeezed). Even with a grip "safety" (something of a misnomer in my opinion), something protruding into the trigger guard could cause a discharge when holstering/drawing the weapon. Firing should be an INTENTIONAL act, meaning it seems to me that TWO actions should be required to accomplish it, hopefully insuring that the intent of a person is required to fire the gun.

Now, my pistol can be handled more safely in some ways than others (as is true for all of them). It can be holstered/drawn without depressing the grip safety. This is an improvement but also more difficult and certainly does not prevent the grip from being depressed if one adjusts their grip. We're still left with a gun that can be fired by one movement. A Glock does not have a grip safety but a pistol that does is still not prevented from firing if the grip and trigger get pushed at the same time.

In my opinion a pistol that can be put "on safe" (where it wouldn't fire even if someone picked it up and squeezed it) but that can be fired with TWO one-handed moves (i.e. a safety release and a trigger pull) insures firing is an intentional act but one that can be accomplished quickly with one hand. I would be very nervous carrying a weapon that did not take an intentional move to put in ready-to-fire mode. Of course thumb safeties can be disengaged unintentionally, but at the same time I doubt anyone carries an autoloader chambered with the thumb safety OFF. I'm betting if they have one its engaged when the chamber is loaded. Thumb flick and pull the 'bang switch' and you're fully functional. I am kind of sad because I think I'll have to get a different pistol to carry if I choose to do so.

Oh well, an excuse to get a Browning Hi-Power!

For what it's worth, it's possible the dog activated the trigger with a claw or something, and the same thing could happen to pistol with a grip "safety" if it's being held. A thumb safety that has to be disengaged before firing seems the safest route. It's probably a function of the attempt to carry in an environment that is not by definition life-threatening. In battle, I'd guess something without a thumb safety would ALWAYS be carried in ready-to-fire mode.

[shooter1]

Threads on this topic keep popping up. It's rare to go a month without seeing one! It seems to be a common perception that it's impossible to maintain control of that pesky little trigger thingy, and we need more mechanical devices to protect us from ourselves. Not to mention the maverick shirt tails and dog paws that might somehow pull the triggers on our heater. I submit that proper training in gun handling will make us much safer than any other safety device one can dream up. Having grown up around guns and carried all of my adult life, most of the time for a living, I have seen NDs with ALL action types, including DA revolvers. Most of these by fellow police officers. These NDs all had one thing in common: They all pulled the trigger! If one is incapable of learning, or unwilling to learn how to safely handle and run a gun, then by all means carry it unloaded, or better yet, not at all. A man's got to know his limitations! :banghead:
str1

[wormserco]

Always with one in the pipe. I carry a Kimber Pro Carry II, condition 1 or a Springfield XD 45ACP compact. No matter how fast you are carrying without one in the chamber creates a risk of the slide not going forward into battery when you manually cycle it. Plus it ties up your support hand which is bad if you're having to push the person away at 4' as you draw.

[NavyLT]

These NDs all had one thing in common: They all pulled the trigger!

Not true. Some NDs happen because of a dirty or corroded firing pin/channel causing a slam fire.

But I would still rather have that slam fire happen in a controlled environment, where I know exactly where the muzzle is pointed and when I have time to deal with the situation, rather than in the heat of the SHTF moment.

That's why I always chamber the round in a controlled environment (before I leave the house with my carry weapon): I want that action to occur in a completely controlled environment so that I am not betting my life that it occurs reliability in the middle of a SHTF moment and, in the remote chance a slam fire occurs, I know exactly where that bullet is going.

[shooter1]

NavyLT
ND------Negligent Discharge: Caused by,--------you guessed it! Operator negligence.
I say again, they all pulled the trigger!
AD--------Accidental Discharge, -------------caused by a condition out of the operator's control.
Could be a mechanical malfunction like you mentioned above.
Both are Unintended Discharges, but entirely two different things.
str1

[NavyLT]

Good point. I will revise my statement: "I would rather have an AD because of a mechanical malfunction, which is most likely to occur during the act of chambering a round, in a controlled environment rather than in a SHTF environment."

[shooter1]

LT,

Agree totally!!

str1

[John Parker]

but only if you, or your girlfriend, "fingers the trigger"

You can 'finger my trigger' any day.

[Zerodefect]

But what if my empty chamber gun accidentally escapes its holster and cocks itself!:what:?

Omg! I better carry empty magwell with my magazine in my pocket......Oh tehnoes, what if I drop my mag? Could it go off? What if it bounces up lands in my pistol which falls out of its holster cocking itself and lands trigger first on my little toe?:what:

I cant take it anymore.....I think my ammo comes out of the safe at night and is planning to get me.:uhoh:

[loneviking]

To say that a round-chambered Glock is as safe as a revolver is pure nonsense. It's almost as safe as a hammerless revolver but not nearly as safe as a standard revolver. When a Glock trigger is activated, you can not see and can barely feel internal movement. When a revolver trigger is activated you can see a cylinder turning; you can see a hammer moving; and, you can feel these various stages in the trigger.


Exactly! Which is why I've come to prefer the Sigs. They have a hammer that you can ride as you place the gun into and out of the holster. You could feel the hammer move when you are carrying the gun. You can also very quickly brush against the gun when carrying and tell that the hammer is down. And when the hammer is uncocked and needs to be safetied, the decock lever is there for you to do that maneuver safely.

And always, always, always get a good leather or kydex holster and check to make sure that the trigger can NOT be pressed or moved through the holster material.

I prefer one in the pipe, but there are some semi-auto's that just aren't safe to carry this way.

[SHusky57]

Reply to plink:
I was in your shoes and got a Browning HP. The BHP is just absolutely fantastic. Get one!

There are basically 3 safeties.
1) Trigger (duh)
2) Thumb safety
3) half-cock notch. If your gun is that broken that when you disengage the thumb safety the hammer falls to fire without a trigger pull, the half-cock notch will catch it

[lordmegatron]

i'm not going to have one in the chamber

[shooter1]

Chances are you'll never need it anyway, it might be safer yet if it remained in the safe.
Summation: Anyone feeling that they don't have sufficient control over their weapon to safely carry it in a "Ready" condition, certainly should not do so.
str1

[loneviking]

For those who aren't going to carry with one in the chamber, you need to watch this video and think about how/when you would have had a chance to chamber a round. Although this video was shot in Brazil, it's a scenario that could play out right here in the USA:

http://video.globo.com/Videos/Player/Noticias/0,,GIM1031946-7823-BANDIDO+E+FRENTISTA+TROCAM+TIROS+EM+SANTA+CATARINA,00.html

[Zerodefect]

:what: awesome vid!

That first guy drew when the BG allready had him at point black! with a slow as molasses draw! And he reached out to aim and shoot instead of quickly shooting from a retension position!

Sure took a long time for the BG die.

Thats normal, close range without a second to spare.

[shooter1]

Looked at the video. By all rights they both should have been dead.
str1

[loneviking]

Sure took a long time for the BG die.


Unless you manage a head shot, you'd better figure on 10 seconds for a fatal wound to cause the bad guys' body to collapse. From viewing the video, I would guess that the GG's first shot with the BG's left arm up and the gun firing under the BG's arm, likely went into the lung and heart. The GG did take one round into the shoulder, probably when they clinched and the GG was drawing. There was NO time to draw and rack a slide as only one hand was free. Keep shooting and scootin' until the BG goes down!

[Gardien]

1 in the chamber and safety OFF with my SA. Why should I carry it any different that my 642?

Keeps it simple-point and shoot.