[Bronx]

My name is Martin, I'm married, 38 and I live in the Bronx with my wife and 12 y.o. daughter. Pretty nice neighborhood but nevertheless things do happen. A shooting took place down the street last night (a car was holed up nothing more) and a cabbie cut someones throat for not paying the fair just a few blocks away. Unusual but true.

After a long hiatus from owning and casually shooting firearms I've decided I'd like to get back into it for recreation as well as preparation for self-defense if the need ever arises.

Firearms I used to own were long guns. Remington BDL 700, Ruger Mini-14, Chinese AK variant. Quite a long time ago 10 years at least.

I've never been a pistol owner and my shooting experience with them is limited to basic qualification in the Navy. My brother (Currently a LTjg in the Silent Service) has a beautiful H&K .45 compact that just melts into the hands.........

Anyhow, after talking with a few folks more knowledgeable than myself it seems that the most practical firearm for my need at the moment would be a .357mag.

I've heard that the .357 has excellent stopping power as well as the option for firing .38 loads (cheaper...) for practice.

To show how out of the loop I am I only discovered that the fabled Colt Python is out of production today!

With that in mind I've done a bit of research and I find the S&W 327PD rather appealing:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/163419_large.jpg

Model: 327PD
Caliber: .357MAG/.38+P
Capacity: 8 Rounds
Action: Single/Double Action
Barrel Length: 4"
Front Sight: Pinned Red HI-VIZ®
Rear Sight: Adjustable V-Notch
Overall Length: 9 1/2"
Weight Empty: 24.3 oz.
Grip: Wood - Rubber Grip Included
Material: Scandium Alloy Frame - Titanium Cylinder
Finish: Matte Black


http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=65225&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15706&isFirearm=Y


Any and all advice is welcome and appreciated.

Thanks for taking the time to read this and this forum seems to be quite the civilized place.

p.s. I'm 5'10", 220#, average sized hands and a Southpaw.

[2ndAmFan]

I like S&W revolvers and .357 mag is a good choice for defense. .38 spl rounds are not only cheaper but .38+Ps might be a better defense round if you live in an apartment or condo, that type of place. If you aren't planning on carrying concealed this might be an excellent choice.
Have you held one of these? Fired one? Always best to at least test out the grip before plunking down a bunch of $$. I recommend going to a gun shop and checking out what they have, hold them and see what feels right to you. Don't make a decision w/out checking out what's available. You'll know when you find the right one...at least I always have. These days ammo isn't easy to find so make sure you buy at least a couple hundred rounds of different types of ammo so you can see what works best in the gun you choose, and have some left over for defense. I'd find one of these to at least hold before buying. An uncomfortable grip will cause you major problems.

[Bronx]

I definitely plan to handle any weapon personally before I buy it.........

[ArchAngelCD]

Welcome to the forum Martin.

I'm a little surprised you are able to own a revolver in NY City. I lived there for 48 years so I know how tough that is. The revolver you are looking at is very light and will have considerable felt recoil when you fire .357 Magnum ammo from it. Since you're new to handguns you might find that to be a problem if you need to fire a quick followup shot. If this is a home defense handgun only I would suggest a heavier 4" .357 Magnum.

The S&W M627 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=65218&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15706&isFirearm=Y) is an 8 shot .357 Magnum which weighs 42oz. It is an N frame revolver like the one you are looking at. (N frame is a large frame)

SKU: 163357
Model: 627
Caliber: .357MAG/.38+P
Capacity: 8 Rounds
Action: Single/Double Action
Barrel Length: 4"
Front Sight: Red Ramp
Rear Sight: Adjustable White Outline
Overall Length: 9 5/8"
Weight Empty: 42 oz.
Grip: Rubber
Material: Stainless Steel
Finish: Satin Stainless

For something a little smaller there's the L frame Model 620 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14804&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15705&isFirearm=Y) which is a 7 round .357 Magnum. It's a great shooter and a little lighter than the Model 686 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14798&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15705&isFirearm=Y) which is also a nice revolver which comes in both 6 round and 7 round models.

SKU: 164401
Model: 620
Caliber: .357MAG/.38+P
Capacity: 7 Rounds
Barrel Length: 4"
Front Sight: Red Ramp Front
Rear Sight: White Outline Adjustable Rear
Grip: Rubber Grips
Frame: Medium
Finish: Satin Stainless
Overall Length: 9 1/2"
Material: Stainless Steel
Weight Empty: 37.9 oz.

SKU: 164222
Model: 686
Caliber: .357MAG/.38+P
Capacity: 6 Rounds
Barrel Length: 4"
Front Sight: Red Ramp Front
Rear Sight: White Outline Adjustable Rear
Grip: Rubber Grips
Frame: Medium
Finish: Satin Stainless
Overall Length: 9 5/8"
Material: Stainless Steel
Weight Empty: 40 oz.

In any case, I would suggest staying away from the ultra-light models as a new shooter. You want every shot to count and you want to hit what you aim at. Practice will be much more pleasant with a heavier revolver too.

[Bronx]

Thanks for the welcome ArchAngel.......

I plan to let Edelman's Permit Service handle the fine points of my permit application.

Regarding weight you make good points, what then is the purpose of building such a light weight revolver?

[ArchAngelCD]

The light revolver is made for comfort during extended carry. Like I said above, if this revolver is for home defense only the weight won't be an issue. Also, if your wife has to use the revolver and not used to shooting either, she may find shooting an ultra-light revolver very unpleasant which will cause her not to practice.

[mnrivrat]

I think the main issue will be how it feels in your hands and points for you. While I certainly like the S&W N frame guns, I find an L-Frame or K-frame to handle better for me. (they are a bit smaller)

The point made about felt recoil is also worth at least noting. The lighter the gun, the more felt recoil with a given load. For some this is not a problem, for others it can be.

No matter what, you will be well armed with a 4 inch barreled .357 magnum, DA revolver.

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree mnrivrat. I like the M620 because of the half underlug and the way it feels in your hand. The balance just feels right to me.

[Bronx]

Thanks again, I'll definitely go with something heavier.

What other manufacturers should I consider?

[ArchAngelCD]

I would stick with S&W and the models I mentioned although you may like something else. The only other manufacturer I would consider is Ruger and their Model GP100 (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1705&return=Y). It's a very good revolver too. They also have it in Blue (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1702&return=Y).

[Bronx]

That keeps it simple. 3 models to try.

[ArchAngelCD]

Good luck finding something you like. Don't forget to post some pictures when you buy...

[Bronx]

I most certainly will post pictures, may be a little while though......The Wife is quite interested as well, she had a SIG 226 a number of years ago. I have a lovely wife. :)

[DoubleAction]

Have your thoughts pondered the use of the 357 sig cartridge ?

[Bronx]

Yes actually. If I understand correctly you can't feed a .357 sig semi-auto .38 cartridges...Ammunition is a little more difficult to find as well, no?

....Although I am familiar with automatics I want to start "basic". A .45 would probably be the second piece I end up acquiring.

[sidheshooter]

Lots of good options out there. If you have indeed narrowed it down to the three above, however, rest assured that you will get a great sidearm.

It would be hard to do better than a 4-inch .357 from either S&W or Ruger for an all-around revolver for defense and recreation.

I'd be way more than ok with any of the three choices.

So far as ammo, nothing has as many workable options extant; there are numerous loadings in both .38 special and .357 from reputable makers that will do in a pinch.

You might enjoy perusing this old poll/thread that I posted some months back to get an idea of what people are relying on for defensive fodder...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=432137&highlight=.357+poll

Best of luck with your shopping.

[Cpt. America]

Its a Great round and you've selected a very fine firearm. I personally own a Smith and Wesson Model 19 and a Taurus model 66. Both are loaded with Hornady Leverlution. You can never go wrong with a good quality wheel gun. I've been in Law Enforcement for 7 years now and I retired from the US Army just last year. From my experiance I would trust my life as well as the life of my family to the .357 mag.

[Stainz]

I don't have a 620 - but imagine the 5" half-lug 686+ 7-shooter below (top) with an inch less barrel - and an orange ramp front sight. While you are looking at the front sight, note the placement of the tiny roll pin hole beneath the sight. It has to be driven out with a tiny drift, a new one fitted & drilled, and the roll pin driven back in to change the front sight. The 627 Pro at the bottom has a spring loaded front sight - you can change it in seconds without tools - a worthy attribute. That model also came ready for moonclips, a means of holding eight rounds ready to be loaded in one step. It's SKU is #178014 and it's MSRP is only a few bucks more than the new regular production 627 previously mentioned (... and a lot less than that 327PD!), which is not much more than the 620. They all come with rubber grips, too - I like wood, however.

http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u307/Stainz_2007/IMG_3369.jpg

Speaking of moonclips - the original use of that metal clip was to properly hold the rimless .45 ACP cartridges for use in a revolver - and that dates back to 1917! The current such offering from S&W, the 625JM below, has many 'extras', like that same spring-loaded front sight, while selling, literally, for only a few bucks more than the 627 Pro. It reloads faster, too.

http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u307/Stainz_2007/IMG_0582.jpg

Why choose a .45 ACP revolver over .38 or .357 Magnum? While it's 'boom' is louder than a .38, it isn't the ear-splitting 'Crack!' of the supersonic .357 Magnum. It is a 'big bore', ie, .452" vs .357" diameter, and even the 230gr FMJ 'ball' ammo is easy to find - ie, readily available - and reasonable. It is just a thought - if you think you want a .45! A great plus for those fast-reloading/re-useable moonclips - they are as cheap as $35/100 delivered - that would be 600 rounds 'ready to go' - great for 'Zombie' attacks. Imagine what 86 7-round 1911 magazines would cost...


Welcome to the forum - and revolvers! Good luck - and keep us apprised.

Stainz (a Brooklyn native)

[GP100man]

GP100 4" SS
it absorbs recoil with the wrap around grips , smaller interchangable grips for the wife & carry.
i`m not biased , just practical.
oh yeah did i mention cheaper.

GP100man

[InRemorse]

Look at the Taurus 608 with a 4" or 8" barrel. 8 shot. Stronger built that the S&W. And more accurate. And cheaper. Plus, that S&W is too light for shooting hot loads, your wrist will degenerate fast.

[General Geoff]

Cheaper, sure. Stronger and more accurate? Them's some bold words, fella. :D

[Bronx]

The 327 M&P seems like a model to try as well.........10oz heavier than the PD I was looking at. I'm going to make a trip to the local shop tomorrow. Licensing fees are ridiculous in NYC. It's amazing how much they charge for a "right". $104.00 for fingerprinting and $340.00 for a 3 year premise license.

[Bronx]

Korth? What can you tell me about these?

http://www.korthusa.com/images/r-eichenlaub-1-1.jpg

[Hawk]

Korth is reputed to be very nice. I believe the base model revolver is around 5,000.00 with any embellishments adding to that.

They make no secret that a good portion of the cost is associated with the amount of hand work involved. If you're a fan of hand-fitting, it's the bee's knees. If you're the sort that thinks hand fitting and finishing is obsolete and indicative of an unwillingness to buy ultra high speed 5-axis CNC machines and EDM equipment you'll not think the tariff is worth it.

But hand-fitting is what the Python and MR-93 are about - it's just a matter of degree. Korth appears to be better supported than Manhurin for whatever reason. It's probably not much more difficult to get worked on than a Python these days. You'll just be mailing it to Earl's instead of Colt or C&S or GC.

http://www.korthusa.com/start_en.htm

If my memory of my NY years is accurate I recall not only a good deal of expense with the permit process but a lesser amount of pain and agony each time a firearm is added to the tally. Hence, Korths make pretty good sense in that context - it jams a lot of sweetness into a single firearm.

FWIW, Gun-Tests liked everything about the Korth revolver except the price. They encountered some issues with the semi-auto but I'd expect it would have been made right and returned with a bottle of 32 year old MacAllan's for the trouble.

I'm pretty sure Edelman's doesn't work for free either...

There's something about NYC and 500.00 total permit costs that make the Korth a little less outlandish than it would be elsewhere. For sheer function I'd rather an MR-93 but getting one exceeds my "PITA index" before it's even out of the blocks - no active US importer and bringing one in is like taking a beating.

[JWF III]

Korth? What can you tell me about these?


Extremely expensive, but from what I've been told (by someone that has shot them), THE BEST revolver out there. The guy that I was talking with also has several Performance Center S&Ws, he said they aren't much of a comparison.

But as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have 10-12 different models of S&W than just one Korth. I have no complaints about any S&W I own.

Wyman

[Bronx]

$5000.00 is out of my league at this point.

[Hawk]

There's a used one for 3,250.00 on Gunbroker. I'm no Korth expert but it looks somewhat overpriced - photos aren't that great and it goes back to the unshrouded ejector days.

Lots of folks prefer that but an unshrouded on a Korth just looks ... wrong .. to me.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=126337476

[md7]

hello martin,

S&W makes a fine revolver (IMHO) to be sure, but the Ruger GP 100 is a very nice revolver as well. my suggestion would be to pick all of the models you are thinking about up and handle them. pick the one that feels "right" to you. any of those you have mentioned will do fine.

my personal prefernce is for the GP 100.

[Hawk]

Hermann's is showing an MR-73 for USD 1,400.00.

The trick, which I've quite totally given up on, is getting it here.

Maybe you could prevail upon Edelman's?

http://www.hermannsguns.com/Pistols/manurhin/MR73products17.html

[Bronx]

$3250.00 used is out of my league too!

I have a few guitars up there but I've been playing with those for 20+ years.

What I've learned from that experience is you don't shell out that kind of money when you're a beginner because you haven't developed the skills and techiques that dictate what you really need from an instrument.

I want a basic, high quality, meat and potatoes revolver that I can grow with for a while.

It' seems the options have really dwindled and that pistols are much more popular knowadays. The only big manufacturers Are S&W and Ruger?

I'd like to buy American so Taurus is out of the equation, and that Rossi thread with the sheared barrel is spooky.

I sure would like to try a Colt but I'm not experienced enough to effectively evaluate a used piece.

[md7]

martin,

there is a very informative note sticky'd on the top of the revolvers forum here on THR. it gives a very basic check list on how to judge a used revolver. like you, i am not the most knowlegable on revolvers and found that sticky to be very helpful.

[Hawk]

Current production US double actions - pretty much S&W and Ruger as you've noted.

Oops. I forgot Charco.

ATF says 391,000 revolvers were made domestically on '07. Ruger was 96,000, S&W 196,000 and Charco 14,000.

Going through the list, it looks like everyone else was single action. Dan Wesson is listed as making 20 that year - pity they quit.

[ArchAngelCD]

Martin,
You seem to like Blue and wood better than Stainless. There is a solution to that too, it's the S&W M586 L-Comp (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=43926&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15714&isFirearm=Y) from the S&W Performance Center. Your FFL will have to buy it through a Special Distributor (http://www.camfour.com/exclusives.htm#) but it can be bought. It's a Blue version of the M686 Plus (7 rounds) but with a 3" barrel and it's Carbon Steel.

[Bronx]

Thanks folks for all the great advice. I'll be sure to check the revolver sticky. The most I know about checking out a revolver is what I learned watching Tuco at the gunshop in "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly". :)

As far as aesthetics go I prefer a matte finish in stainless/nickel.......Wood I love in general and blue is classic.

I'd like to keep the price at/under $2000. I thik there should be plenty of leeway there. I'm a bit of a gadget head as well so things like moon-clips and accessory rails are attractive......

Thanks again,

Martin

[Hawk]

That's a fine budget - should cover anything you see on S&W's or Ruger's web site - or a couple - three anythings.

Gadget?

How about a Viridian X5L slung under a 325TR? An interesting blend of 1917 and Star Wars.

http://www.viridiangreenlaser.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21&products_id=48
(I hate web sites with unsolicited videos - kill the speakers if you're in a nursery).

[mljdeckard]

I agree that you are looking at this in a good way, and your choices make sense. I also wish Colt still made the Python.

If it were ME, I would remember that if this is a defensive gun for indoor use, a .357 is about the loudest possible choice. Tinitis is better than death, but I'm also a guitar player, and I might find myself wondering after the fact if there was a way to do the job with less hearing damage. If you're a revolver guy, that's fine, I would get out and shoot as many of the popular brands as possible, but I would also try some of the obvious auto choices. You might find you like them too. If this is strictly a home gun, I would get the heaviest and longest practical option. (full-size auto, 6-8 inch barrel revolver.) Heavier guns have less felt recoil, and longer guns are easier to fire accurately.

[Bronx]

I wish I lived in Westchester.

$10.00 for a permit. not $450.00.

Unbelievable. Illegal taxation.

[kmrcstintn]

with your 'cap' being around $500, I would suggest that you shop around for a used Ruger Security Six or used Ruger GP100; Rugers are built like tanks, very reliable, and offer good quality for the money;

their out-of-box trigger can be a slight bit more gritty than on a Smith & Wesson, but they use coil springs and you can get a Wolff spring kit that will smooth up the trigger if desired;

both of my .357 revolvers are Ruger...one is a 1978 vintage blued Ruger Security Six w/ 4" barrel (bought used for $230 @ 18 months ago) and a 2008 vintage blued Ruger GP100 w/ 6" barrel bought new for $529, but if I shopped arounde more I could have had one for @ $479; the only change I have made is replacing the skinny wood grips on the Security Six with a rubber Pachmayr Gripper...much better control and comfort

[AKElroy]

I own a 340, 19 and a 686; I definately would go with a heavier 4" like the 686. Mine is my best shooter; great trigger, accurate, soft shooting even with heavy 158gr loads. As for OP, I would stick with lighter loads (bullet weight, not charge weight) in an apartment. I would not feel as well protected going with .38's, but I would probably stick w/ 125 gr .357's. They should fragment fine & OP less than the heavy stuff, and they are proven stoppers.