[Badlander]

Most of my handguns have never fired A factory round so I have not looked at prices for a long time. I recently bought A 30-30 and A 45-70. I am not set up to reload these yet. So today I went to Gander mountain for some hornady Lever Evolution for them. I thought I was seeing things! $49.95 for remmington .38spl $69.95 for .357mag and $79.95 for Black hills 230gr JHP .45acp.
They had some cheaper but not much. The Black Hills .45 ammo is about the same price as hornady 45-70. I don't understand. Are you guys paying these prices???/:what:

[negativenines]

Absolutely not. Anyone paying much more than $20/100 for 9mm or $30/100 45 (both plinking ammo) is getting taken.

That being said, $20/100 for 9mm and $30/100 for 45 is pretty close to being taken already.

[CoRoMo]

Nope. I'll continue to reload the components that I bought years ago.

What ever happened to all those thread asking, "Can you actually save money by reloading"?

[Thingster]

That's nuts.

I don't burn through a whole lot of ammo so I do everything on a single stage, but I haven't bought factory ammo in about 8 months- 45 acp was $23/100 and .38 spl was $11/50.

I bought the press mainly for rifle rounds- there's no way I'd be able to afford to shoot my 45-70 without reloading.

[divemedic]

What ever happened to all those thread asking, "Can you actually save money by reloading"?



I still can't see the value in reloading. I have looked at it a few times over the years, and it just doesn't make sense to me from a financial standpoint.

Cost for 10,000 rounds:

Bullets (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=518890&utm_source=hdrainerbullet_img&utm_medium=homepage730), 45 230gr FMJ $1,400

Brass, 1000 pieces (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=183126&t=11082005): $200 (assuming you can use each brass case an average of 10 times allows you to buy 1,000 at a time and reload them)

Primers: 10,000 pieces (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=332027&t=11082005) $300

Powder, 20 pounds (don't forget the $22 haz mat fee) (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=332027&t=11082005): $580

Figure about $600 worth of reloading tools and equipment (press, dies, calipers, scale, bullet puller, case cleaner, cleaning media, etc, etc) and you get:

Total cost for 10,000 rounds 45ACP 230gr FMJ: about $3100, plus shipping AND your time spent picking up brass, cleaning it, and reloading it. Figure a total of 30 hours spent collecting, sorting, cleaning, and prepping those 1,000 cases ten times each, and another 30 hours loading them, for a total of 30 hours.

I can buy 10,000 rounds of the same ammo from Georgia Arms and only spend $3,900 plus shipping on that same 10,000 rounds.

Thus reloading means saving a total of $800 on 10,000 rounds of ammo (eight cents a round). All you get for your 60 hours of work is a 20% savings. That isn't a whole lot of money for the time invested.

That is less than $13.40 an hour. I can make that much at a part time job. Now you can tell me that you reload because you like it, and that is fine, but that is separate from the economic aspect.

[alemonkey]

Don't forget you typically get better quality ammo than factory loaded, or at least ammo tuned to your gun.

[jard]

While I agree that many reloaders just enjoy reloading, I would chalange you to go ahead and run the numbers for another 10000 rounds. Remember that the reloading equipment was already purchased. Also, getting free brass isn't to much trouble either, from buddies that don't reload, or off of the ground.

[SquirrelNuts]

The most expensive part of a cartridge is the brass. Don't forget to discount the brass by the number of times you are going to reload it. Also, your figures are calculated as a "one time shot" for 10k rounds. If you are a shooter, you will surpass that and your gear will last you the rest of your life. The initial investment becomes nothing after a while. You can also make ammo that you can't buy from the stores and make it more accurate...that is a huge advantage.

[Phydeaux642]

That is less than $13.40 an hour. I can make that much at a part time job.

Not anywhere near where I live.

I'd still do it for the $800 savings. Now, If I could only find components.

[X-Rap]

I won't say that I shoot 10k a year but my yearly cycle is not far off that mark some years. Considering the payout on equipment is in the 1st yr, + once you have it it pretty much lasts forever, at least with the service offered by most of the manufacturers. I can't see it as anything but a win situation. Also take into account the fact that you can tailor make the loads, make ammo when it's sold out or unavailable.
Buy supplies when you find them and keep it hoarded and you can keep yourself in ammo a long time.

[Furncliff]

There are ways to get cheaper 230 gr. .45acp. if cost is the primary factor.

Lead bullets sold locally ~$75/1000 Also, I purchased a large lot of mixed lead and jacketed bullets from a member here at a great price.
Brass - I paid $45/1000 from a forum member last year that stuff will last longer than me.
Powder and primers the same except no hazmat, bought locally.
Equipment depreciated over ~10 years = dodlysquat (sp?). Not to mention my widow will sell it after I'm gone.:rolleyes:

Truth be told I don't much care about the cost anymore than a person who golfs cares about the cost of his hobby. And they don't get to blow things up.:D

[divemedic]

Actually, my figures included using the brass an average of 10 times each. In order to get ammo that is a higher quality, you must slow down, no? Do more quality control? This lowers your production rate. Not only that, but my practice ammo always goes bang, and is more accurate than I am.

I am not going to count getting free brass from friends. You might as well say that I could use the time that I am not reloading to collect aluminum cans to sell for ammo money.

As far as "buy supplies when you find them" so you are always ready to reload, that is why I buy large amounts of ammo when I find a deal.

Last year, I got 5,000 rounds of .357Sig frangible practice ammo for $825 from KY Imports (they had it on sale for $163 a case). No reloader can beat that. I wait for ammo to go on sale, then I buy as much as I can afford. I usually have between 10K and 30K rounds on hand in various calibers.

[rdhood]

I still can't see the value in reloading. I have looked at it a few times over the years, and it just doesn't make sense to me from a financial standpoint.

Cost for 10,000 rounds:

Bullets, 45 230gr FMJ $1,400
Brass, 1000 pieces: $200 (assuming you can use each brass case an average of 10 times allows you to buy 1,000 at a time and reload them)
Primers: 10,000 pieces $300
Powder, 20 pounds (don't forget the $22 haz mat fee): $580

Figure about $600 worth of reloading tools and equipment (press, dies, calipers, scale, bullet puller, case cleaner, cleaning media, etc, etc) and you get:

Total cost for 10,000 rounds 45ACP 230gr FMJ: about $3100, plus shipping AND your time spent picking up brass, cleaning it, and reloading it. Figure a total of 30 hours spent collecting, sorting, cleaning, and prepping those 1,000 cases ten times each, and another 30 hours loading them, for a total of 30 hours.

I can buy 10,000 rounds of the same ammo from Georgia Arms and only spend $3,900 plus shipping on that same 10,000 rounds.

Thus reloading means saving a total of $800 on 10,000 rounds of ammo (eight cents a round). All you get for your 60 hours of work is a 20% savings. That isn't a whole lot of money for the time invested.

That is less than $13.40 an hour. I can make that much at a part time job. Now you c

Bullets: Save $$$ by shooting cast
Cases: $50 per thousand , reload 10x ($50)
Primers: 10000 pieces $200
Powder: 8 pounds for 10000 rounds, $100 (bullseye)


Thats about $1150-$1600 per 10000 rounds, a considerable savings considering that you cant even buy 10000 rounds of .45ACP at almost any cost. I can make 200 rounds of .45acp in about an hour. I make them for about $7.50 a box of 50, I shoot plated bullets, and I save about $12.50 a box (thats a savings of $50 an hour over retail).

You can hash this a lot of ways. If you normally make $200K a year, it is probably not worth it for you to reload. But then again, if you have no ammo and can't buy any, you might still reload just to keep shooting. I reload because I have more time than money, and now I have as much ammo as I care to shoot when there isn't any available at all!

The last time I looked, Georgia Arms did not have 10000 .45ACP to purchase... shipping times have been delayed 5-7 weeks.

[divemedic]

Cast bullets are a different story. I was comparing apples to apples. I can get cast commercial loads even cheaper, or I can shoot Wolf. Once you start cutting corners and shooting cast, and buying used brass, it is hard to tell me you are still getting ammo that is better quality than factory.

As far as ammo being unavailable right now, the same is true of reloading components. No one has powder, brass, or primers in stock, either. You are still buying your ammo the same as I am. You are just getting it "some assembly required" whereas I am paying someone to assemble it for me. I just don't think the savings are worth it. If you want t o start cutting corners by buying cheaper components, we are no longer comparing apples to apple, and you are shooting an inferior product.

That is your choice, and if that is what you want that is fine. If I wanted to do that, there is still alot of cheap ammo out there, I just choose not to shoot it.

[jmahalek]

My figures for components:
1. 10,000 230 gr .45 FMJ from Precision Delta = $1100
2. Brass = $0. I use brass from ammo I've already bought. So I get the cases free after shooting.
3. Primers = $300 (if you can find 'em let me know)
4. Powder = $180. I get ~1200 rounds from one $20 jar of Titegroup (5 grains per round, 7000 grains in a pound).
No hazmat fee - local Cabelas.

The reloading equipment is definitely not cheap and I spent much more than $600; however, it is not consumable and should last me forever. Plus, I can resell it if I have to. Also, I got around 1500 free bullets from Hornady for my reloading supplies.

Finally, I don't have to reload. I could afford to just buy the loaded factory ammo, but I like to reload - it is enjoyable and a fun hobby. Something satisfying in looking at your containers full of shiny ammo you created. Also, with a reasonable stock of components, I don't have to depend on Walmart or local shops to have ammo in stock when I want it.

[Lone_Gunman]

I reload quite a bit. In fact, about 90 percent of what I shoot is my reloaded ammo. I don't think it saves a dime. There is always some cool new tool I need. Its a fun hobby, and I like tweaking loads.

I think you are wrong though about the cost of brass. I have been reloading about 4 years, and have never bought a single piece of brass until recently when I bought some lake city military surplus brass. I got all my brass for free... I just pick up the brass after I shot factory ammo.

[X-Rap]

I think more should be like divemedic, please leave your brass lay and also encourage all your friends to do the same.

[Baldy]

Here's a cost calculator that will tell you to the penny what you spend.:)
http://www.handloads.com/calc/loadingCosts.asp

[divemedic]

Actually, buying factory ammo for the 'free' brass doesn't help as much as you think.
First 1,000 rounds of ammo: $350
Bullets: $1260
Primers: $270
Powder $522
Now your total cost is $3,002 for 10,000 rounds, as opposed to $3,080 for buying the brass new.

Also, with a reasonable stock of components, I don't have to depend on Walmart or local shops to have ammo in stock when I want it.

I could easily say that "with a reasonable stock of ammo on hand, I don't have to depend on Walmart for ammo when I want it." The only difference is that I buy my ammo preassembled. I know how much I shoot, and I have been placing orders far enough in advance to maintain stock. My last order took 12 weeks to arrive, so I simply increased the size of the order to account for the longer lead times.

In my mind, there are only two reasons for reloading:

1 as a hobby in itself, because you enjoy reloading
2 or if you are reloading an unusual or rare cartridge that is not cheap, but uses common components

since my guns are all common, easily available cartridges, I don't see much advantage. Now, if I were shooting a lot of, say 7.7mm Japanese, it would be a different story.

All I shoot is: 9mm, .22LR, .45ACP, .357Sig, .308, .223, 7.62x39 and 12ga. All readily available, and if I wanted to reload, it would require more than one press. for me, just not cost effective.

[Deanimator]

I can now reload for every cartridge I use on a regular basis. In fact, last year I bought conventionally rifled barrels for my two Glocks so that I could safely shoot lead bullet handloads in them.

I couldn't afford to shoot factory ammunition in 1979. I sure can't now.

[Deanimator]

Cast bullets are a different story. I was comparing apples to apples. I can get cast commercial loads even cheaper, or I can shoot Wolf. Once you start cutting corners and shooting cast, and buying used brass, it is hard to tell me you are still getting ammo that is better quality than factory.
Shooting Wolf is cutting corners.

Shooting cast bullet handloads is what the best bullseye shooters in the country do. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY I know shoots bullseye matches with the factory ammunition they sell at Walmart.

I guarantee you my .38 Special and .45acp cast bullet handloads are better than anything other than top of the line factory target loads. And how much do you think THOSE cost? Of course nobody around here sells anything but cheap plinking ammo and expensive self-defense ammunition anyway.

[jmahalek]

$522 for powder? Just what type and how much powder are you using?

[azmtnbikerxdm]

To the OP, yes the prices of factory ammo are going up and some places are increasing their prices faster because of the high demand. I have not seen prices like you posted yet though!

I would love to start reloading for my .308 and tailor the loads for some long range shooting but reloading supplies are as hard to come by as factory ammo. At this time I am just going to buy the factory stuff until this spike in guns/ammo slows down.

[IndianaBoy]

Divemedic, it seems like you are trying to justify not reloading. :D


You picked the worst case scenario with regard to cost of components, and you make some incorrect assumptions.

All I shoot is: 9mm, .22LR, .45ACP, .357Sig, .308, .223, 7.62x39 and 12ga. All readily available, and if I wanted to reload, it would require more than one press. for me, just not cost effective.

I think you lack a basic understanding of how reloading works.

With the exception of 12 guage, you can reload everything you shoot on one press. Your estimate of hours spent to reload are also WAY off the charts. I reloaded 3000 rounds of 9mm last weekend at a cost of roughly 8.50 per 100. I spent MOST of Saturday at the range, so I wasn't like I was a slave to the press. :)

Next weekend I will change my Dillon over to .223 and make a whole bunch of rifle ammo. I also load for my bolt action rifles on a single stage press. 220 Swift for $1.25 per shot from Bass Pro? Or $.18 per shot from my Lee single stage press?

Considering that you shoot 308 and 357 Sig, you could save a TON of money by reloading. It doesn't take as long as you seem to think it does. Pistol brass requires very little brass prep. Rifle brass requires trimming, but not every time. I trim and chamfer brass for my AR once every five times I load it. Most of the work prepping brass is done by the tumbler in my garage while I am asleep.

Anyways, I bet your local reloaders love all that brass you leave them! My local police department gifted me almost a thousand pieces of 223 brass last week. ;)

[Lone_Gunman]

Reloading is also more "green" than buying new factory ammo.

No new packaging. No new shipping. Brass gets reused. Overall, its the eco-friendly way to go. In fact, Obama is considering subsidizing reloaders as part of the bailout.

[06]

I like Divemedic, wish I was living nearby his AO so I could pick up his brass. wc

[Rancho Relaxo]

While it's clear that Divemedic has talked himself out of reloading, I'd also have to point out that there are a lot of cartridges that you absolutely cannot afford to shoot unless you reload. Last time I checked (last year) a box of Winchester .410 retailed for $10 where I live, 1/2oz target loads. 28ga was $8 or $9. I could not enjoy subgage skeet shooting at prices like that, but when it costs less than half that to reload, I can't get enough! I haven't calculated it, but I'm almost certain that my match quality 223 reloads are a lot cheaper than buying boxes of Federal Gold Match 223 as well.

[divemedic]

Divemedic, it seems like you are trying to justify not reloading.

No, I have looked at reloading several times in the past few years, and I just did not find it to be cost effective, so I decided not to do it.

With the exception of 12 guage, you can reload everything you shoot on one press.

That is why I said aat least two machines. You would need one for shotgun, one for centerfire.

Your estimate of hours spent to reload are also WAY off the charts.

I based it off of the figures from Dillon for the 550B press. It can process 400 rounds an hour. That works out to 25 hours of handle pulling for 10,000 rounds. There would of course, be extra time for loading the machine, packaging the ammo, quality control checks, etc. You do pull and weigh the occasional charge, correct? Or do you just hope the charge is always correct?

Picking up 1,000 cases should take you about 20 minutes, so picking them up 10 times should take about 200 minutes. Then you must clean them, check them, and ensure that they are not damaged, correct? Or do you just load them and hope for the best? Inspecting and other case prep should take, what, about 10 seconds each? 10,000 times ten seconds is 100,000 seconds, or 27 hours. (After all, you do check case length of your cases, right?)

If you are not performing any quality control at all, you can significantly cut your reloading time, but then again, you are cutting corners.

Sure,, you can use lead bullets, but that makes for inferior ammo.
Sure, you can make ammo more accurate than factory, but then again, that means more QC, more care in weighing charges, checking case and cartridge length, etc. All of which hurts efficiency.

220 Swift for $1.25 per shot from Bass Pro? Or $.18 per shot from my Lee single stage press?

220 Swift is a caliber that is not made in the same bulk as the more common calibers. It is an expensive cartridge. I can shoot .308 for less than 75 cents a round, 7.62x39 for less than 40 cents, and 223 for about 45 cents.

A single stage press slows you down even more. You get, what 100 rounds an hour? So, now we are talking 15 hours or so to reload 1,000 rounds?

I never said it didn't make financial sense for everyone, just that it doesn't for me. Look at the calibers I shoot.

For example:

Last year I bought .357Sig at $163 per 1,000 rounds. This is Speer Lawman RHT frangible lead free ammo. What does that cost to reload? Can you beat 16 cents a round? If you can, by how much? At 200 rounds for each hour of work, you would need to do better than 10 cents a round to save $12 an hour. A part time job as a lifeguard pays more than that. At 12 cents a round, you can work at Taco Bell and beat that.

I can make $200 for teaching a CPR class to a local church in 4 hours, or I can save $60 on making marginally cheaper ammo. Again, not cost effective. Might as well spend my time clipping coupons for dog food.


ETA: I also was just going through my receipts. I have 5,000 rounds of .45 ACP in the house that I bought in December. It is packaged in 500 round ammo cans. I paid $1,200 for 10 cans/5,000 rounds. That is 24 cents a round for 230gr FMC. I have .223 surplus Lake City ammo- I got 3,000 rounds of it in November for $750. Again, 25 cents a round. The rices right now are due to panic buying. By the time I need ammo again, they will be back down. By that time, you guys will be able to get reloading supplies again.

[X-Rap]

He has me convinced, does anyone need any reloading equipment??

[Whitman31]

I can reload 9mm for $.15 each, or $15.00 per 100. I can buy it at Wal-Mart for $19.99 per 100 (+tax). Reloading 9mm saves me about $5.00 per 100. In my opinion not worth my time.

I can reload 10mm for $.20 each or $10.00 per 50. The last time I saw American Eagle (usually the cheapest) around here it was $38.00 per 50. Reloading 10mm saves me around $28.00 per 50, well worth doing.

Reloading for the 204Ruger is worth it as well.

It all depends on what your loading. I bought the equipment to reload 22-250 (worth doing). Now that I have the equipment it makes it tough not to consider the more common loads, even if the cost savings isn't as great.

Most reloaders will agree that the equipment is a non-factor. It lasts forever, pays for itself in a few 1000 rounds, and can be re-sold if necessary. Brass can be considered equipment as it last for many uses, pays for itself very quickly, and holds a decent value if selling is required.

Time is the key factor. If you've got more time than money, and can't get a part-time job due to family obligations it's worth it. My 7 year old loves sitting at the bench with me, I alway find something for him to do that helps speed up the process too.

[jmahalek]

Yeah, but I don't want to work at Taco Bell. Maybe South Beach Miami lifeguarding would be ok though.

[divemedic]

Whitman-
Thank you. As you can see, I shoot common calibers. the original poster was saying that his Dillon 550 was worth it because of the high price of 9mm, .45, and .357. I just think that those calibers are not cost effective to reload, especially if I am buying the equipment just for that.

I took a long, hard look (more than once), and decided that handloading is not effective for me. I shoot IDPA, so handloading for hyper-accuracy will not help. Factory ammo is more than accurate enough for IDPA.

My wife works during the week. My kids are grown up and on their own, and my job has me working 3- 24 hour days a week. This leaves me with a lot of time home alone (3-4 weekdays each week). I choose to teach classes to local medical providers one day a week, which pays me more per hour than I would save by staying home and reloading. I make enough in one day of teaching to buy a couple of thousand rounds of factory ammo.

If I shot a more expensive caliber, I would take another look. Realistically, though for the calibers I shoot, it is more cost effective to buy factory.

ETA: Whether a reloader considers the equipment or not, it is still a factor in the decision. If I were to eload, I would spend the extra $$ and get quality equipment. I believe that if you get quality tools and take care of them, they will serve you well. The cost of those tools must be a factor in deciding whether or not to reload. One thing I disagree with i in not looking at the cost of brass. That is a supply you must buy, and even though you reuse it, it has a finite life. 10 times, 20, whatever, it will get damaged, bent, lost, weakened, whatever. Leaving it out is being dishonest to yourself and to the cost of your hobby.

Example:

I bought a pickup truck. It cost me $25,000. If I drive it for 100,000 miles, using 4,000 gallons of gasoline at $2 a gallon, and I get 30 oil changes at $10 a piece, and it goes into the shop 3 times at a cost of $500 each time, is it more cost effective to buy the truck, or to catch a cab at 30 cents a mile?

Operating the truck costs 9.8 cents a mile, or $9,800 for the 100,000 mile life of the truck. Taking the cab would have cost $30,000 for 100,000 miles.

Including the cost of the truck makes it 34.8 cents a mile, or $34,800. At that point, I have to ask if my old used up truck with 100,000 miles on the ticker is worth $4,800, so I break eve, or should I take a cab.

I know it is a simplified analogy, but all I am saying is that I have to look at the variables.

[X-Rap]

Your logic is fair, some of us load for dozens of calibers. Some of those are a bit obscure or at the minimum expensive to buy factory loads for.
Weatherby ammo is a good example. I can also say that picking the highest and comparing to the lowest price skews the actual value or savings from either prospective. For example I can find SMK's from $29-$35 per 100. That cost difference can easily be the tipping point to a reloader unless he is set on that bullet for a specialty load.
Millions of shooters do both and have for years and I have no doubt that they all can do math and each places a certain value on their time and what they do with it.
I will say that at this time given the costs casting bullets for me is a waste of time, that will ruffle some feathers so it just proves we all have a value attached to our time.

[Landric]

Handloading is something that is not for everyone. Clearly it isn't for divemedic. That is fine, though I really don't understand why he would come to the handloading forum and post responses to the thread if he doesn't handload. Everyone values their time differently. To me, its worth it to handload .223, .38 Special, 9x19, and .45ACP in addition to .32S&W Long, .32H&R Mag, .44 Russian, .44 Special, and 45-70 Government.

My only real point of confusion is why he seems to think lead bullet loads are inferior to FMJs. It all depends on the task, for general target shooting (including IDPA which I also shoot a lot of) lead bullets are just as good or superior to FMJ. It is not cutting corners to shoot lead.

As for getting a second job to pay for ammunition, I have no desire to do so. I enjoy my time off, and if I had to work a second job (other than for myself) to be able to afford to shoot, I guess I wouldn't shoot. I happen to enjoy handloading in and of its self. If I didn't, there is probably no amount of savings I could get handloading that would make it worthwile. If you are only looking at what you would save, its not worth the trouble (even though the savings are significant, about 50% over factory for me). I can't afford to shoot as much factory ammo as I can my handloads, but even if I had unlimited funds, I'd still handload.

I don't get paid to shoot, why would I expect to get paid to handload? Anyone could spend the time handloading working a second job, but that is a much more rigid box to put one's self in. If something comes up, I don't have to handload, the same is not true with employment. If one enjoys ones secondary employment, then I suppose it might be worth it to do rather than load ammunition. I can't imagine anyone really enjoys working at Taco Bell. That really is apples to oranges: time spent handloading vs. time spent working in fast food.

[Whitman31]

Dive,

I agree, if shooting only common caliburs reloading might not be worth the time. I've only looked at the 9mm, all my other guns are exotic enough to justify reloading.

The reason I don't count brass is because when it's time to reload, brass isn't on my shopping list. I already have it, just like the press and dies. I'll loose some here and there, but I'll find some too. I don't keep my brass sorted by number of uses, virtually impossible for me. I'll cull brass individually when it's worn out. Eventually, I'll have thrown away enough that I'll have to buy a bag of 100. I have 1000 rounds of 22-250 brass, I'll never need to buy another piece.

On that note, I don't go through 10,000 rounds of any one calibur in a year, more like 3 years I'd guess. If I was shooting all the time I would obviously need to replace brass more often.

I cannot buy factory 22-250 ammo that is as accurate as my reloads, period.

The taxi driver won't take me to my Prairie Dog town... Some things you just gotta have...:D

I'm not trying to talk you into reloading, just arguing the statement that reloading isn't valuable. It's always cheaper, sometimes it's a big enough savings to justify the time, sometimes it isn't.

[divemedic]

That is fine, though I really don't understand why he would come to the handloading forum and post responses to the thread if he doesn't handload.

For the record, I didn't come to this forum. This thread was originally in "general" and was moved to this forum. I am not a troll, I don't pick fights.

On that note, I don't go through 10,000 rounds of any one calibur in a year, more like 3 years I'd guess.

I shoot about 1,000 rounds a month. Sometimes as high as 1,500. One IDPA match Sunday can easily go through 500 rounds.

[Landric]

divemedic said:

For the record, I didn't come to this forum. This thread was originally in "general" and was moved to this forum. I am not a troll, I don't pick fights.

I wasn't trying to suggest that you were a troll, you have been around too long for that. I was just surprised that someone who isn't into handloading was reading this forum, but the movement of the thread explains it.


divemedic said:

I shoot about 1,000 rounds a month. Sometimes as high as 1,500. One IDPA match Sunday can easily go through 500 rounds.

Wow, you must shoot really different matches than I do. Even the sanctioned matches rarely involve more than 250 rounds, and 100 is about average (or a little high) for club level matchs.

[BHFG]

I did the math several times and for me, I think reloading is definitely cost effective after about a few thousand rounds. Until that, it is a hobby that is costing me money, but far leass than my radio control hobby costs me!! Beyond that, reloading saves me money.

But no matter what it cost, it was worth it just to see the beaming smile on my son's face when we got home from the range and he ran to show his mom his groupings from ten factory rounds, and his reloaded rounds. (He bench mounted his gun so he could compare them fairly.) I think his pride was only slightly more than dear old Dad's!!

Any hobby shared, especially with my family, is worth every penny, regardless.

[schmeky]

Sure,, you can use lead bullets, but that makes for inferior ammo.

:what::banghead:

[mp43sniper]

Look at it this way. How much would I spend on Prvi Partisan 7.92x33 kurz (for MP44's) purchased outright......

versus....

Basically free equipment (friend and his dad gave me an older rock chucker and cheaper components they replaced over the years but were still functional) and free brass I get from reenactments? We have an MG34 in the unit and I made a spent case catcher for it. I found another guy in need of some MP44 parts and he traded me both the forming and reloading die sets for them.

The only thing I'll ever pay for in the future is bullets, powder, and primers. There are some calibers where reloading pays BIG TIME. The rest of the time I consider half the value as knowing I can easily make more. Wal Mart won't be open when the zombies attack!

Craig

[Thingster]

Like has been said, reload for the hobby of it- not the cost savings if all you're going to load are really, really common calibers. The cost savings is just an added benefit.

However, shoot an "obscure" cartridge and cost savings does become a major driving factor. Reloading 45-70 saves me $1.50-$3.50 PER ROUND. 45 colt, 50 cents-75 cents per round (not counting cowboy loads).

It adds up even faster for big game cartridges.

Just between 45-70 and 45 colt, i've recouped most of the cost of my loading setup in 6 months.

[divemedic]

schmecky:

So educate me. I have always worried about the problems associated with lead bullets. If I can get away with unjacketed lead, I can cut my ammo costs quite a bit.

There is a lot of unjacketed ammo out there for cheap.

[Steve H]

I bought most of my equiptment (except a new ChargeMaster1500) about 15 yeas ago so I do not figure it into the price of a reload. I can reload .45 with a Berry's 230 gr RN plated bullet over a charge of 6.0 grs. of Unique in brass that I have reused for years using primers that I bought YESTERDAY (CCI APS for $2.60/100). I don't count my time as I am retired. My cost comes out to under 20 cents a round. Yesterday I could have bought Remington UMC 45 at WalMart for 36 cents a round plus tax. I think my reload is higher quality than UMC and at almos 1/2 the price to me.


No brainer, I reload.

[redneck2]

I shoot lead in my 45LC and 45 acp. Cost per box of 50 reloads is about $4-5 (8-10 cents each) depending on cost of the bullets themselves.

Lead can be as or more accurate than cheap jacketed.

I assume the "problems" would be leading, which doesn't happen with the right bullet and powder combo.

In non-military calibers, reloading typically saves 60-75%.

[Dean Williams]

Divemedic, if you don't want to reload, that's fine and good. It's not for everyone. However, your pricing of reloading components is a fair bit off the mark.

You have;

"Cost for 10,000 rounds:
Bullets, 45 230gr FMJ $1,400
Brass, 1000 pieces: $200
Primers: 10,000 pieces $300
Powder, 20 pounds (don't forget the $22 haz mat fee): $580"
(Quote abridged.).

I didn't shop around for the prices I looked up. Just went to the common suppliers I use;

Primers, $260 per 10k, (Grafs).
Powder, $148 for 8# W231, which is all you need for 10k rounds, (Grafs).
Hazmat chg for above, $22.50. All covered under one fee.
Brass, $151 per 1000 inc shipping, (direct from Starline).
Bullets, about what you have if you want FMJ. Much less for lead.

A difference of nearly $500, even if you spend extra on FMJ bullets. Also, that $500 goes a long way toward the $600 worth of loading equipment you mentioned.

Using lead bullets will drop the price quite a lot more. I don't know why the comments about lead being inferior. It certainly is not when it comes to shooting targets, and if you're using FMJ's I'm guessing you are not using that particular gun for SD or hunting. So, you're target shooting, maybe?
If it's accuracy you're thinking about, lead looses nothing to FMJ bullets. I shot bullseye competition for years. Almost everyone uses lead bullets, and remember, it's Bullseye.

Keep in mind that most people's reloading gear has been amortized out years ago. Even a new reloader will recover equipment costs quickly if he is an enthusiastic shooter.

Of course, if one doesn't like the idea of reloading, none of this matters, except for the cost of factory ammo. It doesn't change the fact that reloading is less costly. It just changes where you will spend a portion of your time... At home, working at the reloading bench, or at a job working for another man. Neither is worse than the other, depending on what you like.

[dr.bear]

If you normally make $200K a year, it is probably not worth it for you to reload.

I beg to differ. I would say I make considerably more than that (trying to make a point here, not to brag) and it is well worth it for me to reload. It's an entirely unique hobby to me. The ability to make accurate/precise ammunition to your exact specifications is amazing. It's even more amazing when you shoot your own ammo. Over the course of time, the equipment cost IMO becomes negligible. Sure, if you're adding up the cost to make ammo for a period of say 1 year then equipment cost factor will be high, but I've been reloading for the past 4 years and am probably going to keep reloading until I'm old and gray (33 now). It costs me about $7.00 for 45acp 50rds and $3.00 for .223rem 20 rds to reload. I think that's a great value. I understand the point the OP is trying to make. Time and effort costs money, so if think getting into reloading is a hassle or you might not save that much money short term to make it worthwhile then maybe it's best that you find good deals on factory ammo.

Oh, BTW, a good caliber to contrast is 44magnum. I just started reloading it. I initially bought 3 boxes (50/each) of walmart winchester 44 mag target ammo for $34/box, yikes!!! Every shot is almost 80 cents. After firing all the rounds in my 629 and Anaconda, I decided to spend $130 for 44mag dies and conversion kit for my dillon xl650 loader. Using the once fired brass, 2400 powder, nosler 240g JSP bullets and WLP primers, my cost to make each bullet is 20 cents, or $10.00 for a box of 50. Not only is the reloaded ammo more accurate, but my pocket book thanks me for it. So you have to weigh a lot of factors to make the decision to reload or not, and one of the key decisions is deciding which caliber(s) you want load.

[lgbloader]

What the heck caused this soap opera... Last word freaks - LOL.

LGB

[jfrey]

It is up to each one of us, individually,if we choose to reload or not. That said, I don't save a dime reloading, I just shoot a lot more. When I was buying a box at a time, I was frugal with my shooting. Now, with several thousand rounds loaded on hand, I shoot until I get tired. I figure I paid for my equipment the first year in savings over the cost of store-bought ammo. I split the cost of everything 50/50 with my father-in-law so the cost to me is even less. That is just my experience and not everyone may find that to be true. As far as my time is concerned, if I am not loading ammo, I would just be sitting on my behind looking at the idiot box and getting nothing for it. I find reloading ammo to actually be relaxing. I can concentrate on that and get my mind off the daily troubles for a while.

Certainly reloading is not for everyone, but I don't have $3500.00 to drop on ammo in one pop either.

[SSN Vet]

I can buy it at Wal-Mart for $19.99 per 100

"if" you can find it in stock...

more and more, that's turning out to be one big "if"....

article on the radio today said that even the Maine State Police are having problems sourcing ammo.

I just set up to load 9mm Luger.... and after some waiting for back orders to be filled, I have a decent stock of components.

No more trips to Wally World just to stare at empty shelves.

Buy plated bullets in decent volume and you'll get that 9mm load price down to $12/c

[rdhood]

What the heck caused this soap opera... Last word freaks - LOL.


Well, someone said "its not worth it".

I personally know that I am saving $12.50 a box for 45acp, $10 a box for .40S&W, and about $5 a box for 9mm, and $40+ per thousand for 7.62x39. I can make around 180-200 rounds an hour. I bought my press/powder measure for about $240, dies are $35 each. A couple years ago, the savings were far smaller. A couple years from now, ammo could go back down in price making reloading of some calibers, like 7.62x39, not cost effective. So, sometimes you save very little or none, and sometimes you save a lot.

I buy bullets by the thousand, and they range from .05 (lead 9mm) to .11 (7.62x39 fmj). I buy primers by the 5k, and powder by the 8# jug (Powder valley sells 8lbs of 231 for $112, 8 lbs of Bullseye for $96, primers for $20 per 1k). I shoot about 2000-3000 per year. My equipment "paid for itself" during the first year.

Further, I don't have to wonder if I will have ammo to shoot next week. I had no idea that there was a run on ammo until I read it in the forums because I only shoot what I make.

[rockhound758]

+1 on Dr. Bear's comments...making good money doesn't preclude one from having this as a hobby; the intangibles are pretty special. And I also reload (among other calibers) .44 mag, and the cost savings are definitely compelling.

Having this thread started in another forum definitely explains Divemedic's comments, but I'd agree with others that the numbers he uses aren't necessarily representative. In any case, there are many many hobbies where not only is there a capital expense for equipment, but there are also NO cost savings. I reload because a) it gives me satisfaction, b) I like the analytical/detail orientation nature of the hobby, c) I like being somewhat self-reliant re: ammunition in these uncertain times, d) I can find loads that work best for me, and e) I can either shoot the same for less or more for the same. I buy powder in 8 lb jubs, bullets by the case, etc.

Again, while reloading for some calibers might not be worth it, for many it makes a ton of sense...just like for people.

[kanook]

i can't locate any 357 ammo locally. so it is cost effective to reload for me if i want to shoot.

[schmeky]

Divemedic,

It's fine with me if you don't want to reload for whatever reason. However, after 25 years of reloading, I have found a quality cast bullet, selected for the proper application (i.e. correct hardness and sized for the bore diameter of the weapon being loaded for) will deliver outstanding performance.

Example; my CZ-97 will put 6 shots in a 1.5"-2.0" group at 25 yards using a 12 Brinell hardness 200 gn LSWC size at .452 behind 4.4 gns of WW231. This is outstanding accuracy from a "combat" weapon, which I cannot achieve with factory loads.

When I started reloading, I shot a Ruger .45 Long Colt. Ammo for this pistol was very expensive, still is. Since modern .45 Colt revolvers use the same size bullets (.451-.452) as the .45 ACP, reloading for the Ruger was virtually the only way to go.

I can buy 1,000 quality hard cast .45 bullets for $77.00 delivered to my door. I just got 10,000 large pistol primers for $221.00 delivered. 4 pounds of WW231 costs $80.00 delivered and will load 6363 rounds (at 4.4 gns per round). My cost to load 6,300 45ACP rounds is approximately $610.00, or 10.33 cents per round. (less the reloading equipment, which has more than paid for itself years ago).

Factory ammo is a compromise, one size fits all proposition. Nothing wrong with this approach. But for precision shooting, either rifle or pistols, reloading is the only way to go. Go to a long range rifle course, go to a Bullseye pistol shooting match, and tell me what kind of ammo you see. You may be focusing only on the cost aspect, not the overall picture.

I go through about 12,000 cast bullets a year and have no leading problems whatsover, can "typically" shoot more accurately than someone using factory loads, (ain't this worth something?), and by my calculations, save money. So for me I realize:

Better accuracy
Reduced ammo cost
Customized ammo
Enjoyable for me

[Badlander]

I am the OP. I did not expect this thread to go this direction. But since it did.
I am also A scrounger I have beel reloading for many years> I have yet to spend A penny for A piece of brass. I may have to for the 45-70. About $75 per tho. For .45 acp bullits less for others. I recently bought 3000 primers for $15 at A garage sale.I get by as frugaly as I can.
I am still shocked by the prices on common factory ammo.

[atbarr]

If, and I mean IF you can find manufatured ammo, good for you.

A.T.

[Badlander]

Gander mountain in Palm Beach Gardens Fl. has A ton of it. Just real pricey.
.223 7.62x39 .308 9mm .45 most anything you need.

[GaryL]

Dear Ann,

Today I went online to my favorite reloading board.....

[SquirrelNuts]

I had never thought of my reloading as being "green" before. That is an interesting (and certainly true) way to look at it. Perhaps I will tell my boss that I am helping to offset my carbon footprint by reloading next time he has an anti-gun comment to make.

[FNAUTO5]

"...Sure,, you can use lead bullets, but that makes for inferior ammo.."



:eek:

[divemedic]

Sorry, I was at work and didn't get a chance to come back.

A lot to answer as to why my decision was made the way it was. Let me restate that I am not saying that reloading is a poor choice. I am saying that reloading is a poor choice FOR ME, and furthermore, if the only reason you want to reload is to save money, you are mistaken.

Yes, I will admit that you can reload and get better accuracy, but that comes at a cost of more time, which increases expense. After all, to get the sort of accuracy you are looking for requires much more QA and better components, right? So comparing costs using the cheapest supplies you can get, and claiming production rates of over 200 rounds per hour AND claiming that you are getting more accurate is disingenuous.

At the same time, reloading for bulk to save money does not allow you to take the time to reload for more accuracy. There is a curve, where your cost of production versus quality meets your production efficiency. Before I worked as a medic, I worked in a factory where we made steel pipe. Every time we manufactured a product, we had to analyze the production cost, to include QA, materials, and labor. Sometimes it just was not worth it to produce a given product.

My time is worth money. Every minute that I spend doing labor to save money costs me a minute that I am not earning money. That is also why I pay someone to cut my grass, and why I use a drive through car wash. If I spend 4 hours a month mowing grass to avoid paying the lawn guy $80 a month, and that costs me 8 hours of production at my money earning job where I earn $30 an hour (or even $15 an hour), what have I really saved? Depending on the class, I make anywhere from $18 an hour to over $300 an hour teaching classes to medical facilities, 1 to 3 days a week. (I only wish I could do that full time- $300 an hour?) I average $35 an hour while teaching. If I gave that up to save $10 an hour reloading that would not make any sense.

Military and the more common civilian calibers benefit from the economy of scale, in that bulk production saves money. Comparing a reload to these rounds does not result in a savings large enough to compensate me for my time. More exotic rounds might, and should I begin shooting these, I may take another look at reloading.

Look at the examples of the deals I have gotten in the last year, and tell me that reloading can beat that:

.357Sig Speer Lawman RHT Lead free ammo: $163 per 1,000
.45ACP FMJ $240 per 1,000
5.56mm milsurp $275 for 1,000 rounds
7.62 Nato $225 for 500 rounds

Another point I wanted to touch on was the statement I made concerning lead bullets being inferior to metal jacketed bullets. I had always understood that lead bullets increase leading. However, if that fouling has to be cleaned from your barrel, or increases barrel wear, this must be factored into the overall cost of using reloads. The fact that professional competition shooters use lead means nothing to me, as they have a MUCH larger budget for replacing firearms (as well as the free firearms they get- I wish) than I do.

If Julie G is using lead, so what? Her monthly ammo budget is more than my mortgage, plus shooting is her full time job- and I am willing to bet that she doesn't spend her firearm time at a reloading bench. The same for Jarret, or any other shooter who makes a living at it.

The last thing I want to address is availability. There are those who claim that ammo is unavailable, and use their stock of reloading components to say something like, "Wal mart is out of ammo, but I have enough components on hand to make 1,000 rounds, therefore it makes sense to reload."

Hogwash. I can just as easily say, "Midway is out of primers, but I have over 20,000 rounds of factory ammo in the house, sucks to be a reloader." Availability is even, as far as I am concerned.

The low availability and higher cost of both ammo and reloading supplies are temporary in nature, and are related to a combination of Obama panic buyers, people buying in speculation of a ban so they can resell at a profit, economic factors, and the large amounts of ammo being used by the military overseas. As these conditions ease, so will ammo supply and cost.

[Landric]

divemedic said:

Sorry, I was at work and didn't get a chance to come back.

A lot to answer as to why my decision was made the way it was. Let me restate that I am not saying that reloading is a poor choice. I am saying that reloading is a poor choice FOR ME, and furthermore, if the only reason you want to reload is to save money, you are mistaken.

Its your choice to make in that regard. If I made it sound like I thought you should handload in any of my posts, that wasn't my intention.

I enjoy handloading as a hobby, but even if I just did it to save money, it would still be worth it based on my figuring of the costs. Whether I could actually do it just to save money is another matter entirely.

Yes, I will admit that you can reload and get better accuracy, but that comes at a cost of more time, which increases expense. After all, to get the sort of accuracy you are looking for requires much more QA and better components, right? So comparing costs using the cheapest supplies you can get, and claiming production rates of over 200 rounds per hour AND claiming that you are getting more accurate is disingenuous.

That depends. I have found the accuracy of my high volume production handloads to be better in general than cheaper factory options like Blazer Brass, UMC, and WWB. I can also tune them to shoot point of aim in my guns (which can especially be a problem with fixed sight guns and factory ammo). Yes, it does take some time to find the right load combination, but after that I can mass produce that load for less than factory with better results than factory.

At the same time, reloading for bulk to save money does not allow you to take the time to reload for more accuracy. There is a curve, where your cost of production versus quality meets your production efficiency. Before I worked as a medic, I worked in a factory where we made steel pipe. Every time we manufactured a product, we had to analyze the production cost, to include QA, materials, and labor. Sometimes it just was not worth it to produce a given product.

See above. Making ammunition for my own use is not the same as making steel pipe (or anything else) to sell. Its set up specifically for my needs, and it might not meet others needs.

My time is worth money. Every minute that I spend doing labor to save money costs me a minute that I am not earning money. That is also why I pay someone to cut my grass, and why I use a drive through car wash. If I spend 4 hours a month mowing grass to avoid paying the lawn guy $80 a month, and that costs me 8 hours of production at my money earning job where I earn $30 an hour (or even $15 an hour), what have I really saved? Depending on the class, I make anywhere from $18 an hour to over $300 an hour teaching classes to medical facilities, 1 to 3 days a week. (I only wish I could do that full time- $300 an hour?) I average $35 an hour while teaching. If I gave that up to save $10 an hour reloading that would not make any sense.

Your time is only worth money if you would actually be working during the time you spend handloading (or doing anything else). I don't get paid to sit on my butt and watch TV, and I enjoy handloading at least as much as that. I also mow my own lawn. I don't enjoy it, but I have the time to do it. If I paid someone $80 a month to mow it, I'd be out $80 because I have the time to do it myself. Now, it might be worth it to you to pay someone $80 to mow your lawn, but the only way that it saves you money to do that is if you work during all the time that you could have spent mowing the lawn and make more than the $80.

Military and the more common civilian calibers benefit from the economy of scale, in that bulk production saves money. Comparing a reload to these rounds does not result in a savings large enough to compensate me for my time. More exotic rounds might, and should I begin shooting these, I may take another look at reloading.

And for you that is a fine decision. I still take issue with the idea that leisure time is worth money, but you can figure it anyway you want to. It is, after all, your time.

Look at the examples of the deals I have gotten in the last year, and tell me that reloading can beat that:

.357Sig Speer Lawman RHT Lead free ammo: $163 per 1,000

I don't shoot or load 357 SIG, but in that instance, probably not. That is a fantastic deal, but its probably one that cannot often be repeated.

.45ACP FMJ $240 per 1,000

Easily with lead bullets, see comments on lead bullets below. About $100-$150/k, depending on whether I have the brass already or not. Less actually since I buy components in bulk and I was figuring prices on the 1000 at a time purchase and including shipping in the amount. One saves on components and hazmat/shipping fees by buying in larger amounts.

5.56mm milsurp $275 for 1,000 rounds

Perhaps not by as much, but about $150/k for 55 grain FMJ if I already have the brass. Even if I have to buy the brass (once fired of course), I'd still be saving $50 or $75 over that cost, and you got a great deal at today's prices. I'll be honest here, I didn't bother loading either .223 or 9x19 when it was $99/1000 for factory. I've always done .45ACP, .38 Special, and other various more expensive factory rounds.

7.62 Nato $225 for 500 rounds

Can't comment on this one, I don't load or shoot .308/7.62x51mm.

Another point I wanted to touch on was the statement I made concerning lead bullets being inferior to metal jacketed bullets. I had always understood that lead bullets increase leading. However, if that fouling has to be cleaned from your barrel, or increases barrel wear, this must be factored into the overall cost of using reloads. The fact that professional competition shooters use lead means nothing to me, as they have a MUCH larger budget for replacing firearms (as well as the free firearms they get- I wish) than I do.

Leading is a result of using the wrong bullet for the job. I load lead in all my handgun chamberings (with the exception of the ammo I shoot in my P7) and I get almost no leading what so ever. My 681 is easier to clean after shooting my lead handloads than it is to clean after shooting factory jacketed ammo. Lead bullets that are too hard for the velocity they are loaded to don't expand at the base when fired and bite into the rifling. When that happens the hot gasses pass the bullet as it travels down the bore. Those gases melt the lead and it sticks to the bore. That tends to be the primary cause of leading at handgun velocities. Of course the opposite also happens, too soft lead at high velocities also tends to lead the bore, and that is cured by harder lead bullets. Its all about using the right bullet for the job.

When I clean my guns after shooting lead I generally need one or two passes with a brush and a couple of patches. After that, the bore is pristine. I can't say the same is true shooting jacketed bullets. It takes a lot more effort to clean the bore after shooting those.

If Julie G is using lead, so what? Her monthly ammo budget is more than my mortgage, plus shooting is her full time job- and I am willing to bet that she doesn't spend her firearm time at a reloading bench. The same for Jarret, or any other shooter who makes a living at it.

Some professional shooters probably do handload. Those that don't are also not shooting WWB, UMC, Blazer Brass, or military surplus ammo. They have sponsors, and the sponsors provide the ammo. That ammo, while factory, is much higher end than anything regular factory ammo buyers get for range time.

Its also a fact that a lot of non-professional competition shooters use lead. The huge majority of people shooting bullseye, IDPA, USPSA, etc., are not professionals. Some of them are fantastic shooters, but they have real jobs to support the habit.

One also has to consider this: None of the factory loads commonly available as target ammo make IDPA power factor in .38 Special. You have to have a +P load with a fairly heavy bullet to get there. Folks shoot the Remington 125 grain +P SJHP available at ChiComMart in SSR all the time. It makes a pretty impressive bang and flash, so no one will ever question it, but it doesn't make power factor. A 125 grain bullet has to make 1000fps to make power factor. A .38 Special +P 125 grain from the factory is lucky to make 950fps. All the standard pressure stuff is no where near making it, especially those 130 grain FMJs that a lot of people buy. I'd have to buy $20+ a box (for 50 rounds) 158 grain +P loads to make power factor. However, my mass produced handload makes it easily and costs me about 1/4 of what 50 rounds of factory would. Sure, I could buy cheaper ammo (and cheat), but I'd rather loose honestly than win dishonestly.


The last thing I want to address is availability. There are those who claim that ammo is unavailable, and use their stock of reloading components to say something like, "Wal mart is out of ammo, but I have enough components on hand to make 1,000 rounds, therefore it makes sense to reload."

Hogwash. I can just as easily say, "Midway is out of primers, but I have over 20,000 rounds of factory ammo in the house, sucks to be a reloader." Availability is even, as far as I am concerned.

The low availability and higher cost of both ammo and reloading supplies are temporary in nature, and are related to a combination of Obama panic buyers, people buying in speculation of a ban so they can resell at a profit, economic factors, and the large amounts of ammo being used by the military overseas. As these conditions ease, so will ammo supply and cost.

I don't disagree with you here. Supply will eventually get better and prices on everything will go down. The advantage for handloaders right now is only there if they have the components and the factory ammo buyer doesn't have the ammo already. The reverse is also true of course.

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Plain and simple, I can RELOAD 45acp for my Bullseye matches and practice for about $.11 each in bulk. -And that's not cutting corners. Ammo that's capable of holding the 10 ring at 50yds! 9mm could be less than $.09 each.

So comparing costs using the cheapest supplies you can get, and claiming production rates of over 200 rounds per hour AND claiming that you are getting more accurate is disingenuous.
Cheapest supplies? More than 200 rounds per hour? You Bet! Match grade LSWC bullets from a local manufacture for $65/1000, Or I pour my own for half that price! Primers for $26/1000, Powder ~30/1000, I already own more than 5,000 rounds of brass that I reload. I won't factor the original purchase price of that brass, it's probably about $.03each but you haven't factored that you can reload certain brass nearly countless times. So, That's $121/1000 for just one very popular cartridge. Find me a bulk order online anywhere for target/match grade ammo for that price. Uh, yes, LEAD. A lead fouled barrel or not, lead will not promote more barrel wear than using jacketed bullets.

You miss the value of reloading as a relaxing opportunity to create exactly what is not available on the store shelves. (even during good times)

You said that you don't mow your own lawn, you don't wash your own car. You pay for those services. I'm guessing you pay for a gym membership too, when all you need is your own living room floor and the outdoors for a cardio work-out.

OK, this is not a slam, but I think you put too much price on your 'off time'. Hey, the rest of us don't get paid when we're 'not working', why should you? You made reference to the professional shooters... Um, I beg to differ that they don't reload ammo. Along with practice hours on the range, if they're not writing an article, giving instruction, or working on their own guns, they're reloading ammo.

I won't quote you, but you said something to the affect that 'Reloading is not for you', in so many terms, 'not cost effective for you'. While it may not be for you, it is quite cost effective for thousands of other shooters that have never made $300/hr ever in their life. -Crimony, I'll bet there's a lot of members on THR that don't make $30/hr!

-Steve

[jmahalek]

.45ACP FMJ $240 per 1,000

I would like to know where that deal is in stock.

You mentioned 'over the last year'. I bet you can't get that over the last few months.

I can make large amounts of money per hour in my profession. The problem is, there is not always work to do.

Again, this is a hobby. I like the savings, but primarily a hobby.

[divemedic]

You said that you don't mow your own lawn, you don't wash your own car. You pay for those services. I'm guessing you pay for a gym membership too, when all you need is your own living room floor and the outdoors for a cardio work-out.

Uh, no. I work out at home. Again, we are talking cost effective. It is more cost effective to work out at home than it is to pay for a gym membership- the two are not even close to comparable. (Unless I could find a way for someone to work out in my place- that would be awesome- all the benefits, someone else does the work)

I literally CAN work as many hours as I want to. I turned down three seminars for this week alone because I am already booked. They were ACLS recertification classes, for which I am compensated by the student, a four hour class, $75 per student, 4 student minimum per class. Consulting and training is where the money is.

However,money is not everything. I could work myself to the bone, but sometimes it is good to just lie down and read a book. If I want to work, there are far more lucrative things you can do with your time than mow a lawn, wash a car, or laod ammo, unless for you that is relaxation. (Again, remember I said that if you load for money alone, you are misguided. If you do it as a hobby because you enjoy it, that is a horse of a different color)

As far as not being able to make that kind of money, it is not that hard. Anyone can do it, you just have to spot a need, and then fill that need. For me, it was finding a way to teach classes that are required by government regulation, and then offering those classes.

Fire extinguishers, forkllifts, CPR, ACLS, blood borne pathogens, etc.

A buddy of mine who is an ex military corpsman travels the country and teaches "tactical medic" to SWAT teams and security firms. He makes much more than I do- I believe he charges $700 plus expenses per day, 5 day minimum.


.45ACP FMJ $240 per 1,000

I would like to know where that deal is in stock.


Of course that deal is not in stock right now. See my comments about availability above. The way I do this, is I wait for a deal and I jump on it, buying as much as I can afford. I still have 2,350 rounds of that .45ACP FMJ in stock. I won't need any for a few months. If I can't find a deal in that caliber, I will switch to .357SIG or 9mm until I can.

Actually, I am low on 9mm now(950 rounds of FMJ), so I have switched to .45. A couple of months from now I will switch to .357. Then, I am in a pickle as supplies will have run out. For that reason, I have cut back to shooting 500rds once a month.

More than 200 rounds per hour? You Bet! Match grade LSWC bullets from a local manufacture for $65/1000, Or I pour my own for half that price!

I want to see someone collect and prep brass, pour and make the bullets, and then load the completed cartridge at a sustained rate of more than 200 rounds per hour on a Dillon 550B*, all the while saving money AND producing ammo that is superior to factory.

Good, fast, AND cheap? Are you telling me that you can have it all? I am throwing the BS flag on that claim.




* With the factory spec for a 550B being 400 rds/hr- this means that you have only 30 minutes 0f each hour to carry out all of the other tasks of ammo manufacture- including collecting and prepping brass, pouring the bullets, and al the rest of the support work needed.

[jmahalek]

Really enjoy the discussion. I also like that you stand your ground, Divemedic.

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

The way I do this, is I wait for a deal and I jump on it, buying as much as I can afford.

You think reloaders don't do this? Not all of us make six figures. We pounce on deals on bullets or brass or powder or primers any chance we get. We stock up for future batch operations.

I want to see someone collect and prep brass, pour and make the bullets, and then load the completed cartridge at a sustained rate of more than 200 rounds per hour on a Dillon 550B*, all the while saving money AND producing ammo that is superior to factory.

Good, fast, AND cheap? Are you telling me that you can have it all? I am throwing the BS flag on that claim.

The only thing about reloading, is that you do end up spending about the same amount of money, because you get to shoot a bunch more for the same prices you would have if purchasing bulk loaded ammo. :D

To challenge your 550B BS flag. I have a Dillon450 and am familiar with the 550. I will admit that pouring/lubing my own bullets is a bit more time consuming and a hobby within itself. Still, I have justified the price of bulk lead bullets at $65/1000 already.

Do ya think that reloaders come home from the range and start prepping brass to reload so we can quantify every minute spent reloading to make sure the process is costworthy? No. Well, kinda sorta... We do things in batches. -Oh, and Uh... Brass pickup is part of shooting. Not reloading. :D

Tipical scenario:

Come home from the range and dump bag of same cal brass in the vibrator. Turn it on. (couple minutes) Walk away and have lunch/dinner.

There's a batch of brass I'd have already taken out of the vibrator in a small bucket on the reloading bench.

After dinner:

I may or may not have poured/lubed some bullets or I have some in a box from the local vendor. Hmm... ? The Dillon is all set up for 45acp. Fill the powder dispensor, fill the primer tube. I can do 300+ rounds/hr on my old 450. I know you can easily run 400 rounds/hr through a 550. More than 500 rounds/hr on a Dillon 650. That's inside the hour from when I walk in the gun room. Sure, there is a little extra time put into boxing and labeling. There is certainly more prep time put into rifle cases, but for standard pistol cartridges, I do challenge your BS flag and expect others in this forum to back me up no matter what progressive press they have.

Go out to garage and recover vibrated brass. Inspect and clean primer pockets if necessary. -Another 15 minutes. I have never ever trimmed a .45acp, or 9mm case in 25 years of reloading.

2 days later, pour some lead or Prep some rifle brass.

1 day later, switch caliber on the press, -15 minutes. Reload different caliber from bulk packed bullets that cost say... $.12ea. Take 9mm for instance. Brass, for the most part is free after the first couple reloadings. Some 1,500 rounds of loads from one pound of powder ($30). Primers, $26/1000. So we're up to somewhere between $150 to $170/1,000 for 9mm. Show me where you can buy custom 9mm for less than $8.50/box of 50 now'a days.

Even for 45acp with bullets that are $.15ea, I can reload them for well under $200/1000. Show me were you can buy 45acp 230gn ball ammo in bulk $250/1000.

Reloading to save 20% is the norm. For certain calibers you can cut costs by near 50%. 30-30, not really cost effective. .223, might also be questionable. No, you don't save as much for military rifle calibers. -if you're happy with bulk corrosive ammo, knock your self out. :banghead:

Yes, I enjoy it as a hobby. But I substantiate that the process is cost effective. Think of all the time you're searching store shelves for ammo that will make power factor or be legal for the type of shooting you do. That time, is time I think you would quantify as wasted time. While reloaders do spend time looking for a deal on a set of components, we tend to get more bang for our buck per minute spent.:D

-Steve

[Eb1]

divemedic, my 30-30 would never had put 3 shots in one hole at 100 yards with factory ammo.

My Lee Enfiled would not shoot MOA with factory ammunition.

My AR-15 would never have shot 69 grain SMKs into .5 inches consistently, nor would it do it with 75 grain Hornady Match HPBT.

I would never have been able to shoot 110 grain HP out of my 30-30, and if I could I doubt very seriously it would shoot very good.

Shooting my guns to just hear them isn't an option. I like to get what I can from my guns. After all they should be precision tools. Yes?

Good luck to you. I love reloading, and I think you should get yourself a press and start. You might like it. You might be surprised how good your guns could really shoot.

divemedic, The way you talk about time and such reminds me of this joke. Mods, please don't ban me if this is against the rules...

Will I Live to see 80?

Here's something to think about.

I recently picked a new primary care doctor. After two visits and exhaustive Lab tests, he said I was doing 'fairly well' for my age. (I just turned 60.)
A little concerned about that comment, I couldn't resist asking him, 'Do you think I'll live to be 80?' He asked, 'Do you smoke tobacco, or drink beer or wine?'
'Oh no,' I replied..
Then he asked, 'Do you eat rib-eye steaks and barbecued ribs?
'I said, 'Not much... my former doctor said that all red meat is very unhealthy!'
'Do you spend a lot of time in the sun, like playing golf, sailing, hiking, or bicycling, dancing?'
'No, I don't,' I said.
He asked, 'Do you gamble, drive fast cars, or have a lot of sex?'
'No,' I said.
He looked at me and said,... 'Then, why do you even give a ****?

[Afy]

Divemedic... what powder are you using?
Also $200 for a 1K of brass? That is very strange.
I dont think your numbers add up... but that is me.
I am reloading a little bit of handgun ammo... and my prices are no where near yours. Then again I am in France and stuff here is really expensive.

[divemedic]

I was using the prices from Midway. I m sure if you shop around, you can beat them.

The way you talk about time and such reminds me of this joke. Mods, please don't ban me if this is against the rules...

Will I Live to see 80?

Here's something to think about.

EXACTLY. I work two jobs (my medic job and my instruction/consulting gig) and it pays well. I shoot, SCUBA dive, and went on three cruises in the last year. Living in Florida, I also have theme parks, camping, beaches, and lots of other activities. There are things to do, ad since I did not enjoy loading the last time I tried it, I look at it as work. (I didn't hate it, just though t that there were more fun things I could be doing) If I am going to work, I am going to make sure it is worth it. Again, don't hate mowing the lawn, I would just rather be in the house watching TV and drinking beer while I watch someone else mow the lawn. Reloading is the same thing.

I am enjoying this, and I do enjoy when discussions can be civil and without flames. Thank you all. I mean that.

The .357 deal I got from KYimports.com. The .45ACP deal was one I swung at several gun shows with the friendly guy from Georgia Arms. The .223 I got at CTD.

[FiremanBob]

Thanks to all for this very interesting thread. To me, the ultimate reason: in the event of an ammo ban or other SHTF scenario, ammo could become the new gold standard. Making it yourself could be a huge advantage if commercial supply channels are disrupted.

[divemedic]

and you don't think the government will think of that and simply regulate or outlaw primers?

[Stew4570]

I love my 550B. My 1911 also loves it. Its paid for its self with 6k rounds and still going.

230 FMJ, 4.8 grains of TiteGroup. For Brass I just go to the range and sweep it up. I really like Berry's Preferred Plated Bullets. I like CCI primers over Winchester. They seem to run smoother in the press.

We are always looking for primer/powder/bullet deals.

[apachejack]

I went to a gun show in Abilene a couple of weeks ago and all the vendors were asking $49.95 for Long Colt 45s. I left there and went to Academy and bought a box of 50 for 28.00. Things have surely gotten crazy lately. I'm like you,,, thank god for my dillons

[rockhound758]

An interesting thread, and like most of them here on THR, pretty mature and non-flame oriented.

It certainly seems to me that the basic issue is whether or not one sees value in reloading for whatever reason (and there ARE legitimate reasons, including accuracy, cost savings, a sense of satisfaction, etc.). If those are important to you, you're open to reloading. If they're not important to you, you don't bother with it.

I'm personally lucky enough (well, not the case since I've worked damn hard to get here) that I don't have to worry about the money side of it. And while I COULD spend time consulting, training, etc. and making MUCH more than I save via reloading, I reload anyway since I enjoy it. Above all the cost savings or more shooting for the same, etc., a sense of satisfaction is worth a lot to me.

[Dravur]

wow... lots of bullwhacky here.

I reload my .223 cases with components I bought way before the current crapfest. I am making 1k rounds for about $130 in my costs for components. My time is worth whatever I put on it. I have the brass and the press etc and that is a sunk cost.

Compare that with $400+ for factory 223.

[divemedic]

So comparing the cost of .223 today (with the temporary price surge) to the cost of ammo that you bought (some assembly required) a year ago means that my position is 'bullwhacky'? :D

To do a fair comparison, I think that you should compare those component costs to what I paid a year ago. I got .223 for $275 a year ago. Much less than the $400 today. That means that 5 hours of labor is saving you $140, or $7 bucks an hour. and we have already discussed how excluding the cost of brass is disingenuous.

[HK G3]

I've been scouring the internet for deals on .451 FMJ bullets. I haven't really been able to find anything yet. I've found excellent deals on 30 cal ammunition (I reload .308, and have been doing so for awhile, but just got into .45 ACP), and have been able to find deals at around $70/1000 30 cal bullets.

With .451, it's more like $130/1000 bullets, with a 5 week backorder. At least, that's the best I've been able to find as far as .451 is concerned. I should probably note I can't shoot cast lead because I have an HK with a polygonal barrel.

Does anyone have any suggestions or deals I should look into? I like to buy bullets in bulk - 1-2k+

[Landric]

By my math, saving $140 over the course of 5 hours is $28/hour, not $7. Since I make less than that at my job, it would be worth it if I only did it for cost savings.

[Dravur]

Honestly, the cost per hour of my time is irrelevant as no one is paying me for that time anyway. And yes, I do understand the opportunity costs, etc, etc. But, since this is my free time anyway and no one is paying me for it, I won't account for it.

Even so, I get better ammunition, at lower prices.

But, you are more than welcome to spend more money on new ammo. The last 9k rounds of .223 I bought was Lake City and cost me all of $200 per thousand. I have enough brass to last me the rest of my life.

[Clarence]

45 ACP factory loads = $16.00 / 50 rds (If you can find them)

My 45 ACP reloads = $5.50 / 50 rds

No brainer - that's why I reload.

[Gewehr98]

I reload 24 different chamberings. The only factory ammo I buy is rimfire.

I have many obscure, obsolete, and wildcat chamberings.

Lead bullets are inferior? Oh, please! You're talking to folks who have decades of reloading experience, and you're telling them they're doing it wrong?

Done right, you'll never have a leading problem. That's not conjecture, that's fact. If you do get leading in your barrel, you're doing it wrong - period.

I shoot swaged and cast lead bullets in 9mm Luger, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 ACP, .30-30 Winchester, .30-40 Krag, .303 British, 8mm Mauser, and .45-70 Government. Many of those are bullets I cast from scrap lead pipe and wheelweights which I got for free. My ammo prices aren't too different than what Clarence quoted above, honestly.

Likewise, were I to buy even 20 of my normal 535gr cast Postell .45-70 rounds at retail prices, I'd probably have to give up shooting my Sharps for a while.

I shoot competitively, and a lot, be it IPSC, USPSA, IDPA, IHMSA, High Power, F-Class, or BPCR Silhouette. I have two Dillon progressives, one Hornady single-stage, one C-H single stage, and a Huntington hand press. I make ammo that's more accurate than factory, at a pace that's just fine for my purposes, and it's tailored to the guns that fire the stuff. Even my AKs and SKS rifles get my handloads - no Wolf or other surplus steel-cased garbage graces their chambers.

As a handloader since about 1976, I've been accumulating and horse-trading components and tools ever since, and add small amounts here and there. I'm still working on my primer/bullet/powder stash from the Y2K scare, honestly.

Instead of telling all of us reloaders how wrong they are, why don't you spend some time with one and see it from a different viewpoint? I'd be more than happy to invite you up here to Wisconsin and let you sit in on a reloading session in my garage, or even the reloading clinic I'm teaching at our local range.

It's one thing if you're too busy to bother with the process, or have extra ammo money burning a hole in your pocket. If that's the case, just say so. Otherwise, there's probably several hundred or more combined years of reloading experience at just THR.ORG alone, never mind THR.US and TFL.

Ammo prices aren't dropping, and that's assuming you can even find some. Walking through the aisles at both of my local Gander Mountain stores, as well as the local Cabelas, I don't get a real warm fuzzy...

[rogn]

Pointless to argue w/DM, his mind is fixed in place. But we all know of flexibility, accuracy, not having to wait for sales, cleaner burns(cleaner gun), purpose dedicated bullets, etc. ,etc. What does one do if 5K of frangible is only good to hit inside of closet w/door shut? I just change load and try again.

[Master Blaster]

Sure,, you can use lead bullets, but that makes for inferior ammo.
Sure, you can make ammo more accurate than factory, but then again, that means more QC, more care in weighing charges, checking case and cartridge length, etc. All of which hurts efficiency.


You know in my 25 years of working in both industry and Government, I have come accross a considerable number of experts and consultants who have no clue in their proported area of expertise. One thing they all share is the ability to blather on endlessly to a room full of folks who are experts.

I have been shooting bullseye pistol for about 20 years, I have met many ranked competitors and been at many matches, almost everyone shoots cast bullets, because they are more acurate than jacketed, and cause much less wear on your gun, important when you have a $2000 + pistol you shoot 100-200 rounds every week. The only factory load I have come across that is as good as my handloads is federal Gold Medal Match.

$750 per thousand if you can find any, thats $7500 plus shipping per 10,000.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=266229

It currently would cost me:

$240 10,000 primers,
$130 8 lbs Solo 1000 (4.5 grains per round = 45,000 grains, and 8 lbs =56,000grains)
$0 Brass I have 10,000 range pickups/ brass given to me.
$150 starline 1,000 pieces
$745 for 10,000 bullets with shipping from Bob P.
$20 hazmat
$1285 with brass, as compared to $7500 for the federal match.

Seems like a big savings to me.

[divemedic]

Let me say that I WAS enjoying the conversation, until we started with the attacks. (BTW- As far a my feeling that lead is inferior, you will note that I said (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5500070&postcount=42) "If I am wrong, educate me." I am not pig headed about it.

You will also note that I said the if the situation changed, I would reexamine the issue. That doesn't sound like a mind that is fixed.

My response was: If you are reloading to save money, and that is your only reason for reloading, you are incorrect in that you aren't saving what you think you are. The only reason many of you think you are saving money is because you are not factoring in hidden costs. Brass, your time, etc. I stand by that. That does not mean it will never be cost effective, or that reloading is never cost effective. Just that reloading is not cost effective NOW, with ammo that is easily available. The fact that some of you are GIVEN things like reloading equipment, supplies, etc., obviously changes things, because the costs are being paid by someone else.

Master Blaster: I don't do bullseye. I do IDPA. Nearly all factory ammo will meet that requirement. Again: my .45 cost $240 per thousand.

But, thanks to those of you who wanted to converse, and good luck to those fan boys who just want to snipe. Speaking of closed minds:

What does one do if 5K of frangible is only good to hit inside of closet w/door shut?

My frangible .357Sig does cloverleaf patterns at 25 yards. Good enough for me, as accurate as my pistols need to be.

[rdhood]

No attack here, divemedic.

I have some .40S&W ammo that I bought for $7 a box just two years ago. There is a big "$6.99" sticker plastered on the box. Reloading was only bringing marginal savings. Still, I reloaded enough to "pay back" my turret press. Now, though, I am making rounds for the same price that I was then, but retail is double... about $14 a box. Now, the savings are huge and significant.

For me, what you wrote was true two years ago but is not today. It might be true, again, two years from now. Only time will tell.

[lgbloader]

I am surprised that Johnny has let this thread run this long.

LGB