A question...


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wellregul8dmilitiamember
April 7, 2009, 12:51 AM
Something I've been wondering about. Opinions appreciated....

I have this friend. Probably one of my best friends that's close to my area. Through and through he's a good guy, but like all of us all, far from perfect. In relation to this topic/forum, he's the guy that introduced me to firearms.

Recently, he has asked me to sign up for some CCW classes with him. And at that time, in the most respectful manner I said no. My reasoning? I don't think he's the type of person that should get one. I didn't say it as such, but I think he caught my drift.

Some background. In approx 4 years as a handgun owner, he's had 2 (known) accidental discharges in his house. I was not present during either, but he admitted he was drunk both times. (maybe all the more reasoning he should take a class?)

About a year ago, I was going over to his house and he comes running around the bushes, and unholsters a 380 to my face. He wanted to show off his new holster. Safety was on, not sure if a round was chambered, but besides messing my pants I was seriously p.o.'d. And yes, he was drunk. :banghead:

About 2 years ago, he got into a fight a local bar. Manager calls me up, I pick him up and drop him off at his house. Long story short, I find out later that week he went out again that night (yes, drunk) in search of the guy he got into a fight with. And yes, he brought his gun along. :banghead: :banghead:

So here's my question. Should I go ahead and take the classes with him? I figure it's his right regardless of my opinion, and that he may very well do so either way. Perhaps it'll make him 'more safe'?

Just wondering what your thoughts on this would be. Thanks.

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Mike Honcho
April 7, 2009, 01:06 AM
Unfortunately, common sense can't be taught. I think you should take these classes on your own and enjoy this freedom yourself. Like seat belt laws and firework regulation, reckless people threaten all our rights in the eyes of legislators.

kingpin008
April 7, 2009, 01:17 AM
If everything you've said is true, I can't see why anyone would want to still hang around the guy, let alone take a class with him that required the handling and firing of firearms.

I mean, I understand friendship, but he sounds like a serious risk to one's health.

Rockwell1
April 7, 2009, 01:17 AM
I don't see any reason why YOU shouldn't take the class.

rogerjames
April 7, 2009, 01:20 AM
Classes and education are good for all. But I would not want to associate myself with someone as careless as your friend. I would avoid further contact as much as possible. I am not willing to risk my freedoms for him.

2RCO
April 7, 2009, 01:25 AM
Troll??? If not then this is my answer. It sounds like your buddy has an Drinking problem and this needs to be solved before anything else. I have seen AA work for people sounds like to sit in on a meeting pronto. Man up and tell him of your fears if you are really a good friend but do it in a tactful manner.

mnrivrat
April 7, 2009, 02:45 AM
So here's my question. Should I go ahead and take the classes with him? I figure it's his right regardless of my opinion, and that he may very well do so either way. Perhaps it'll make him 'more safe'?

I think you ask ,and answer, your question pretty well. If you want to take the class, by all means take the class . Let your friend be responsible for his own actions.

wyocarp
April 7, 2009, 03:15 AM
Certainly he won't be doing this stuff in the class. And the class might benefit both of you. It certainly wouldn't hurt him. Why not?

TAB
April 7, 2009, 03:42 AM
Don't worry about him and getting a CCW permit, it sounds like its just a matter of time before he can no longer own firearms.

TRGRHPY
April 7, 2009, 04:09 AM
I would agree to take the class with him if he attends an AA meeting (or more) with you and stays sober, if he is a friend. If he asks why, then tell him the truth. If he isn't worth the time to you to take to a meeting, then I would suggest that he's not a friend worth having at all. None of us really know the extent of your relationship and how far you're willing to go for this person. Good luck with it.

TAB
April 7, 2009, 04:53 AM
AA meatings don't work. its been proven that there is no diffrence in the numbers that quit between those that go to AA meatings and those that don't.

TRGRHPY
April 7, 2009, 05:17 AM
AA meatings don't work. its been proven that there is no diffrence in the numbers that quit between those that go to AA meatings and those that don't.

Well that sucks. What the hell is going on in this world anyway? Ya know, why do they call it "falling off the wagon" when there are 12 steps? nevermind....

Well, I guess he should have to agree to some sort of sober plan with you. Maybe a religious organization or something? I dunno...

Macgille
April 7, 2009, 05:39 AM
I have a "friend" like that too. In the past 3 years he has gotten caught stealing a camera from a store while armed. He has shot himself in the foot with a .44 Mag. He has attacked his sister with a sword (she escaped injury). He has shot his TV. He has shot a hole in his bedroom wall and punctured a water pipe. He has had his guns siezed by the cops(245 guns), and only got them back with legal help from the NRA. He has been arrested twice for gun related charges. All of the above while drunk.

After some deliberation, I have concluded that he is no longer my friend. I will not have anything to do with him until he gets sober. That will probably never happen. He is a tragedy waiting to happen and I don't want him to happen to anybody close to me.

My advice is to cut your friend loose. You have everything to lose if he happens to you.:uhoh:

heron
April 7, 2009, 09:57 AM
This guy sounds like he's trolling for a Darwin award. Save yourself the aggravation, heartache, and possible legal involvement, and limit your contact with him to phone calls only. If he wants you to go somewhere with him, refuse flatly, and tell him why.
Take the CCW class on your own.

neverjeg
April 7, 2009, 10:26 AM
It is a sad lesson that regardless of how much we care about someone, we can’t help them unless they are willing to help themselves. :( If your friendship means as much to him as it does to you, then try some tough love – draw a line in the sand so to speak. Offer the option of a safety class first rather than a cc class. You might also encourage him to get involved in THR – reading the clear and deliberate convictions expressed here might help adjust his attitude.

In the end, you must look out for yourself and family. Careful with what you are willing to sacrifice.

rbernie
April 7, 2009, 10:36 AM
I have no friends that point firearms at me. If I had ever had such a friend in the past, they would not be a friend now.

Lots of people shouldn't have firearms, especially when drunk. I cannot, and will not, stop them from having them. I just won't be around them.

Ever.

ghoster
April 7, 2009, 11:16 AM
tabsoulety take the class. we need more armed citizens out there.
you sound like a good one and he sounds like he could use the training and will do it any way.

tell your friend that he has a problem and you are willing to help if he wants.
it only works if he decieds he wants it. also ask him to will all firearms to you because it will be a short matter of time before he is dead the way he is going.

tab -- either you are a earth person ( some one who does not have alcholism ) and thus dont have a clue or you are a drunk and havent hit your bottom yet.

im a drunk, always will be a drunk, havent had a drink in over 16 years thanks to aa.

i have 30+ friends that i shoot with that also are non-drinking drunks of 1-45 years due to aa.

actually the first few years ( the hardest ) were due largely to being in the woods shooting instead of at bar drinking.

2 out of 5 make it out the rest die of it.

pbearperry
April 7, 2009, 11:24 AM
You should notify the police that he's having booze and gun problems before he kills someone.If everyone did this,maybe we wouldn't be having so many mass murders.

Just One Shot
April 7, 2009, 11:24 AM
You need new friends!

jackstinson
April 7, 2009, 11:26 AM
I think you ask ,and answer, your question pretty well. If you want to take the class, by all means take the class . Let your friend be responsible for his own actions.
My thoughts exactly.
You get a CCW it for yourself and your family. Your friend is an adult who has to answer for his own actions.
However....if he were my friend, I would have tried long ago to get him some help.

wyocarp
April 7, 2009, 11:30 AM
I knew a guy that had a drinking problem about eight years ago. Of course that wasn't his only problem. He called me one night and asked if I would come over and talk with him. He wasn't an extreemly close friend, but I went over to his place. He and his wife were having some problems. He didn't have a job. And he had some health issues. He was sitting in his truck at the back of his yard right next to the alley.

When I got in his truck, it was clear that he was drunk. What was also clear was that he had a Ruger Blackhawk .44 in his lap. He was talking about using the gun and I wasn't liking the situation. He was very drunk, and after talking with him for a little while, he set the gun down on the seat between us. I figured this was my chance. While I kept him talking, I used my left hand to unload the revolver. It was dark enough that he didn't notice. I hadn't had the revolver unloaded very long when he picked up the gun and pointed it at his head and started talking about shooting himself. It got bad when he asked me if I was scared and pointed the gun at my head and said he could solve both of our problems.

He started talking about the damage the bullets would do and if I knew those hollowpoints would do. He drew the gun back while talking about the bullets and began looking at the cylinder. Yep, he noticed there were no bullets in the gun. He proceeded to get really mad at his wife as he figured that she had taken them out earlier in the evening.

I left that evening, but I went back two days later with a mutual friend. I told him that I had removed the bullets that night, he was surprised that I was able to do that and had still been thinking that his wife had removed them even though she denied it. I told him that he would never point a gun at me again without something vastly different happening. I also told him I would not be talking with ever again.

He committed suicide a couple years ago. I never talked with him after that day. I never understood what his wife saw in him, but I didn't miss having his problems in my life. My wife and I ran into his wife about a year ago and she seemed better, more stable, and seemed to be enjoying her better quality of life.

Mohawk
April 7, 2009, 11:37 AM
I wouldn't give a drunk friend of mine the keys to his truck. If I did I would be enabling him. I wouldn't have any part in enabling a known drunk to carry concealed either. Sooner or later he and the local LEOs will have to sort things out and the results won't be much to his liking.

woad_yurt
April 7, 2009, 12:17 PM
OP:

You had to ask? All any of us needs is a CCWer going homicidal while drunk. If you help this guy get a permit and it hits the fan, you'll have a dead person on your conscience and you'll have given ammo to any anti that wants to screw us over.

He pointed a gun at you? And you're his friend? If he points at his friends, what do you think he'll do to someone who irritates him?

As a 6 3/4 years sober alcoholic, I will say that you're playing with fire. If you're a normal person (non-alcoholic,) I can't see why you'd even debate this. If you're an actively drinking alcoholic, maybe that would explain why this guy doesn't make you run in the opposite direction. This is not a time to go with emotional concepts such as friendship, loyalty, etc. Use the rational part of your brain on this.

Troll Alert: I noticed that it's your first post. Could you just be trying to stir things up here with such an obviously crazy question?

And, for TAB:

AA meatings don't work.

They worked for me and quite a few people I know. That sort of simple, blanket, negative generalization is unsupportable. It took me decades to admit I had a problem. What researcher can say that they have an accurate accounting of stuff that by it's very nature is kept secret or is denied? Do you include the masses who are reluctantly going to meetings because of a judge or is it limited to those who voluntarily walk in the door? Generalizations like yours can be also be harmful. Statements like that may turn off someone who may be on the fence regarding seeking help. Please name the source of your proof.

AA is the only place I know to go when I want to talk to someone who knows what it's like, not someone who's read about it, heard about, studied it, etc. AA meetings do work if you let them. They do not work if one has decided beforehand that they won't work.

Your saying what you did reminds me of a guy in another forum who was telling me that one of the firearms I owned did not function as I said it did. He knew better than I did even though I had owned and shot and maintained the thing for years. Meetings do work; I'm sober due to them as are many people I know.

To everyone reading this:

I apologize about my AA screed. It gets to me when someone completely dismisses the thing that saved my life. Thank you for your tolerance.

mossberg
April 7, 2009, 02:21 PM
Troll???

I don't think so but we'll know for sure if it ends up as one of those threads where the O.P. never returns.

That or maybe he went to his friends house.:o

mcdonl
April 7, 2009, 02:25 PM
He will have to lie on the form where it asks if you have a drug or alchohol problem.

Leroy

Noebb
April 7, 2009, 03:11 PM
.

So here's my question. Should I go ahead and take the classes with him? I figure it's his right regardless of my opinion, and that he may very well do so either way. Perhaps it'll make him 'more safe'?

Just wondering what your thoughts on this would be. Thanks.

That is a very nice leading question... Maybe you are analyzing the culture on this form? Assignment?

Regardless I'll give my opinion(s):

1. You can probably find your answers in your question.

2. Taking the CCW class is up to you. If your "friend" taught your anything about firearms you probably need to seek education on firearm safety from a qualified instructor. But in all likely hood you already know that. Start with the NRA Basic Pistol course. Also take a hunter safety course (DOW).

3. Do you really think a class will make your friend 'more safe'. Maybe he will learn something, maybe he will learn something about safty. But it will do nothing to fix the recklessness or drinking problems you have described.

4. If you do not think he is qualified, responsible enough for a CCW permit. Talk to the local sheriff that handles/issues CCW about your "question". I bet $$ the sheriff will have some good advice.

5. Your choice in friends is a refection on you. Your post implies that you don't like his behavior, and that you feel unsafe.
Tell your friend he has drinking problems and is unsafe.
Tell him where he can get help for himself.
Find a new friend.



.

Noebb
April 7, 2009, 03:14 PM
he will have to lie on the form where it asks if you have a drug or alchohol problem.

Leroy


. +1 .

Brian Dale
April 7, 2009, 06:55 PM
Welcome to THR. I'd get some distance from the guy. He's not being a friend; he's endangering you.

One principle that people mention here is, "don't be there when the fight starts." It's a catch phrase to remind people of a lot of ways to avoid trouble. It seems likely that his life is going to come crashing down around him. That might very well happen sooner rather than later.

It would not be good to end up negligently shot, or in jail as a suspected accomplice, as a result of his problems.

Sorry to bear bad news.

CoRoMo
April 7, 2009, 07:00 PM
Your friend definitely could use an education. Whether it would make a difference or not depends on him.

If the CCW instructor is worth his salt, and smells this attitude on your friend, he won't get out of there with a permit. That could be the 'sobering' confrontation that he needs.

Macmac
April 7, 2009, 07:07 PM
I don't pander to drunks very well, so my advice is that if he is really a friend go take the course with him, which might save his life, and teach him what a fool he has been.

OR drop him like a hot rock and never again give him so much as the time of day.

If he was my friend the day he stuffed a gun in my face would have ended in one of two ways too. I would have kicked his a$$, or I would have shot him. Either way he would no longer be a friend or any issue.

My opinion on that is you enabled him to pull the stunt while you didn't have any controll. He knew you would beat him down.

I don't know what it is these days, but back in my day, once i watch a fool fool with a biker. The biker was a vet from NAM, and you just don't twitter and wrasel with bikers from NAM. When you do, they put you in the dirt face first and then they hurt you.

Supposed grown men these days are like little boys playing a game, and waiting for a women to come and stop it. Your friend is one of that type I fear.

2ndAmFan
April 7, 2009, 07:12 PM
Your friend is a danger to himself and others. He shouldn't have access to firearms at all right now. Whether you feel talking to him about this would be a good idea or not is a judgment call for you to make. If not I'd seriously consider finding a way to get him some help with the drinking problem, whether he wants it or not. From there it's up to him, but if he keeps drinking and keeps his guns you may have to examine your conscience to see how you'd feel if he gets drunk and shoots himself or someone else, and you stood by and did nothing when you might have prevented it by taking action now. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but intoxication and guns is always bad news.

wellregul8dmilitiamember
April 8, 2009, 12:18 AM
Everyone, thanks for your opinions. It's a no win situation, and I think Noebb' #5 says a lot about this situation and myself. In short, I'm not playing it safe (as he is) and it's a just a matter of time before I get corrected. Real bummer....

Thanks again everyone.

Mr. Bojangles
April 8, 2009, 04:49 AM
Ditching this "friend" would not be a sign of cowardice or that you are disloyal. Sometimes people do things that leave them deserving to be abandoned by those around them. If you choose to sever your connection with him, it will be him that has pushed you away, not the other way around.

Best of luck dealing with a very difficult situation.

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