.38 super for concealed carry?

[Mak92fs]

I have wanted a .38 super for a long time and know that i know taurus is brining out a 24/7 in this caliber i definetly want one i was just wondering how .38 super stacked up to the big three (9mm 40 S&W and .45 acp) for self defense?

[jonc]

well I have no first hand knowledge - but here is a excert from wikipedia. Looks like a good round. I think its probably more expensive than a 9mm however, not a bad thing if you reload

"The .38 Super offers higher bullet velocities than the 9x19mm Parabellum in factory cartridges. The greater case capacity allows for more powder and results in higher muzzle velocities at approximately similar pressure levels. The .38 Super is generally regarded as a well-balanced cartridge with a flat trajectory, good accuracy and capable of delivering plenty of energy, in fact some loadings will deliver more foot-pounds of kinetic energy than most factory-loaded .45 ACP rounds.[8"

It looks like it compares with the newer .357 sig really well too. I think some downsides would be that it might be a harder caliber to find at big box stores and there wont be as many self defense loadings for it either.

[bradvanhorn]

The key factor in defensive ammunition these days is the construction. Regardless of caliber or company, most of the newest defensive loads for the 'big three' produce consistent 12-15" penetration through a variety of materials, expand to .6" to .7", and retain 100% weight and structure. Despite the never ending debate over which caliber is most effective, most modern JHPs produce nearly identical results. For some reason this offends everyone equally...

I think your main problem will be finding ammo at a reasonable price, though if you reload this is much less an issue. Also, the number of defensive loads for .38 Super is pretty limited. I think Cor Bon is probably the best bet, but there are a few other options such as Winchester Silvertips. If you handload your own defensive ammo (there are varying schools of thought on the legal implications of doing this) then you could obviously create whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy.

I have a Colt in .38 Super, and also I had a 9mm barrel fitted so I could have broader options. In the 1911, and using factory FMJ ammo, I think the .38 Super feels much like 9mm. Both have quite soft recoil, especially in an all steel gun like mine. I found some 'hot' .38 Super ammo, and it felt much like 9mm +P ammo. Even though I enjoy shooting .38 Super, I usually just shoot 9mm because I can buy it for a lot less (and I don't reload).

[SaxonPig]

I like the Super and currently own two 1911s in this caliber (1 Colt and 1 RIA). The problem with the Super is that factory ammo (at least the "mainstream" ammo) is so underpowered that if restricted to those loads you may as well have a 9mm.

The Super is the same physical size as the older 38 ACP and full-power Super loads are dangerous in these old guns. For safety, the ammo makers now load the Super to the same power level as the 38 ACP. No lawsuits, but also no "Super" loads, either.

The 38 ACP was loaded to around 1050 FPS. The Super pushed a 130 grain bullet to 1300 FPS.For many decades all Super ammo was loaded in nickel cases while 38 ACP was in brass so shooters could tell at a glance which they had and wouldn't load the Supers into an old gun by mistake. I guess that wasn't enough for the lawyers because I noticed a few years ago that the Super ammo was coming in brass cases. I clocked some factory ammo and sure enough, 1050 just like the old 38 ACP. Technically, there is no more 38 Super from the major ammo makers, it's all 38 ACP.

Perhaps the specialty ammo companies offer true Super loads but if they do I am unaware of it.

I load my own Super loads and this cartridge can be loaded to impressive levels. My favorite load uses a 115 JHP at a measured 1450 FPS. This is getting into power levels associated with the 357 Magnum. My guns seem fine with this. I have gone faster, pushing 1600 with this bullet but I got pressure signs at that point and backed off. I think the 1450 load will do the job and seems OK in my guns.

Unless you load your own, or can find somebody like Cor-Bon making full-power ammo, the Super will not live up to its full potential. With proper loads I think it's extremely effective, leaving the 9mm in the dust and rivaling factory 357 Magnum power.

http://www.fototime.com/A5FEE7C0F084410/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/EF24D99B480169F/standard.jpg

[Deanimator]

Before I got laid off, I was shopping around for a deal on a nickeled Rock Island .38 Super as an additional CCW gun. When I get back to work, that'll probably be my first purchase.

[PO2Hammer]

I don't think it's a good choice unless you are a dedicated 1911 crank and a handloader.

.38 Supers use a reduced power recoil spring, that can lead to jams, especially in the less expensive guns.

Factory ammo is either too whimpy (Silvertips) or borders on too hot (Corbon) and is expensive. Practice ammo is expensive, and you would need to put a lot of it through your gun before you could trust it.

I have a real nice Les Baer .38 Super, but I would grab my Glock 30 for CCW.

For CCW I would recomend something in black plastic. I'm thinking of a 4" XD w/manual safety in .40s&w.

[PO2Hammer]

P.S. that is one sweet looking Colt SaxonPig.

[SaxonPig]

Thanks.

Recoil spring for Super and 45 have the same part number and look the same to me. Neither of my mine have ever jammed.

[Walkalong]

.38 Super was carried by law enforcement years ago. It is a great round.

[Gunfighter123]

For almost 10/15 years , 38 Super was THE #1 choice for IPSC/combat shooting games.

To make a Major Power Factor , I run a 124gr. FMC bullet at 1350 FPS. ---- this comes out to a 167.4 Power Factor --- Major PF is 165.0.

This is with a FULL RAMPED barrel in both my custom Colts and Para-Ordnances --- DO NOT TRY this load with a unsupported/unramped barrel.

.38 Supers use a reduced power recoil spring, that can lead to jams, especially in the less expensive guns.




Not from what I have seen --- the recoil springs are the same length from MOST major gun makers.

As others said --- unless you reload the 38Super --- it is really not a very good choice.


A great link for 38Super loads;
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=72

[bradvanhorn]

.38 Supers use a reduced power recoil spring, that can lead to jams, especially in the less expensive guns.
Assuming we are talking 5" 1911 (which we might not be), the standard recoil spring for .45 ACP is 16 lbs.; for .38 Super and 9mm it is 14 lbs. A 14 lbs. spring for .45 ACP would be reduced power, and might lead to malfunctions. The same 14 lbs. spring would be fine in .38 Super or 9mm.

[rcmodel]

i know taurus is brining out a 24/7 in this caliberKeep in mind that for CCW, the .38 Super is a longer round then the 9mm, .357 SIG / .40 S&W.

As a result, the magazine & grip & frame is going to be .45 ACP cartridge length, rather then the smaller slimmer 9mm / .40 size.

If size does matter?

rc

[ak-kev]

I love the super 38. I have 2. Both are 2006's, one stainless, one blued. I have always wanted one but wouldnt accept it if I couldnt get near .357 power levels. So, after many months of research, I have re-sprung my stainless Colt, and started reloading some SUPER defense loads. I worked my way up with virgin Starline +p brass, and the end result was a 124gr. Speer Gold Dot @1450fps. The brass shows no signs of excessive pressure, and they land about 4 feet to my right when shooting. I think its one of the best gun/caliber combinations available, but thats just me :) Kevin.



PS Having said this, I still wouldnt carry it concealed. Its just too big for me, plus I would feel better using my home-brewed defense loads inside my castle (so to speak).

[rswartsell]

I read somewhere that the .38 Super was developed for the FBI during the John Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde days due to the fact that their .45 1911's were not penetrating car glass and sheet metal effectively. With this new breed of criminal using autos extensively for the commission of their crimes and for escape, the round proved effective in penetrating the cars of that day. Is increased penetration what you are looking for?

[SharpsDressedMan]

These are my weekly concealed carry weapons, and the Colt Super (1952 vintage, with Barsto barrel) gets carried the most, in an Alessi Bodyguard shoulder rig. My load is a Rem Golden Saber @ 1350fps, over VV N105. If I don't have too much coffee, and the wind isn't blowing too hard, I can hit a plum everytime at 25 yards. It nails critters dead on the spot, and a human target would probably not be able to tell this load from a .357 Magnum. http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05236.jpg

[jaholder1971]

The only thing that takes away from the Super is lack of decent ammo for the cartridge. Most factory stuff is loaded down, almost to the point of being in standard pressure 9mm range.

Other than that, it's everything the .357 Sig is, just older.

[SharpsDressedMan]

As jaholder1971 stated, ballistics are about equal with the .357 SIG. I have found, regrettably, that the .357 SIG is a bit more difficult to reload. The bottleneck case doesn't have much of a neck, and if things are not just perfect, tension on the bullet may not be optimal, and it may get "bumped" in during feeding. The Super is regarded to be easier to load. Factory ammo is STILL a bit lacking for the Super, and the CorBon loads offer the best ballistics. The Win Silvertip is anemic by comparison. Come on, Winchester! Kick it up!

[Eric F]

Well I have seen some good stuff here the general truth is the lack of decent defense ammo. I carry agulia fmj 130 gr. Why? Speed, they bust 1450 fps. I have tried georgia arms hollow points winchester, and I forget the other brand of hollow points, but none of them were doing better 1150 fps, 9mm speeds.

All in all I like the 38 super. I have reloaded some 125 gr hollow points to 1380 fps but question their performance and until I can test them I wont carry them.

[tipoc]

On ammo for the Super. You can poke around here for an idea of some, not all, of the commercial loads available...

http://www.midwayusa.com/BROWSE/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=7512&categoryString=653***691***

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemListing.aspx?catid=645

By clicking on one or another item you can see the published velocity figures. You'll notice that most of it gets around 1200 fps. Except for Cor-Bon which comes closer to what the Super is capable of.

You may also want to drop by here for more info.

http://www.38super.net/

The .38 Super is one of my favorite rounds. Very useful for self defense and hunting small game up to small deer at the proper ranges. In handloads I've had 148 gr. rounds up to 1400 fps without signs of overpressure.

tipoc

[Deanimator]

Practice ammo is expensive, and you would need to put a lot of it through your gun before you could trust it.
I don't BUY practice ammunition in ANY caliber.

That's why I have a Dillon 550 and several tool heads.

[DoubleAction]

Sig Sauer P-220 / 38 Super
American Magazine Release

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc177/DoubleAction77/D%20A%20Autos/22038superWood.jpg

[tipoc]

The Super is one of those rounds that many folks don't "need" but a good many want. The 9mm+P and +P+ can about match the Super (and as already been said most commercial ammo manufacturers load the Super to 9mm velocities) and the 40S&W beats it as does the .357 Sig in some bullet weights.

But the Super sticks around because many know it works well and they like it. Colt first chambered it in the 1911 in 1929. It was introduced in response to police demands for a round that could penetrate the body armor and steel bodies of the new-fangled automobiles that the gangbangers of the day were using. The Super worked well at this. So well that Smith and Wesson had to come up with something to compete with it. S&W first developed the 38/44 heavy duty N frame handgun and a souped up load of the .38 Spl. to fight off the Super. They followed this a few years later with the .357 Magnum. Police Depts which overwhelmingly favored wheelguns left the Super behind. Except for the Border Patrol and a few FBI agents the Super was never widely used in law enforcement except maybe in the west where a flat shooting, hard hitting round that penetrated better than the .45 was appreciated along with the 9+1 capacity of the 1911 and quicker reloads than the .357 Magnum.

When in the 1930s Mexico banned civilian ownership of "military" rounds the Super caught on there. Colt has sold many guns directed to that market.

The Super caught on again in the 80s and 90s with the rise of combat shooting matches. Browning imported the Sig P220 chambered in the Super and called it the Browning BDA in the late 80s. Years later Kimber, Springfield, etc. chambered it in their guns.

The S&W Performance Center has chambered it in a revolver.

It's a round that sticks around. Not because folks "need" it, or because it does things no other round does, but because it's a good round and people want it. Like the .44 Spl it don't fade away.

tipoc

[JShirley]

GA Arms 124 Gold Dot @ 1350 fps (http://georgia-arms.com/new38super124grgolddothollowpoint50pk.aspx): about $.50/round, delivered, in smaller quantities*. :) That's 150 fps faster than comparable 9x19mm, with a quality JHP.

Some folks (including at least one famous gun writer) have also suggested that 9x23mm Winchester can also be fired in .38 Super. That would give you the utmost power you could expect in an autoloader that size. I would do your research first, though.

John


*Drops a bit if you want to order a lot (http://georgia-arms.com/new38super124grgolddothollowpoint1000pk.aspx).

[DoubleAction]

Georgia Arms has servicing my ammo needs for almost twenty years.

[SharpsDressedMan]

With Georgia Arms, Cor-Bon, and stout handloads in mind, how does the .40 S&W deliver superior ballistics? The 10mm can edge out the .357 Magnum, but the .40 operates pretty close to its maximum pressure range, and doesn't have a +P capability. All of the loads I can think of have lessre power factors. Can anyone cite .40 loads that are superior to the mentioned .38 Super loadings?

[James T Thomas]

www.38super.net

[WC145]

Just the other day (Monday 4/6) I bought a NIB AMT Backup in .38 Super. The same day I found 5 old 50rd boxes of Winchester Silvertips (white box w/red X) in a local shop for $24.95 each and I ordered 7 50rd boxes of Aguila FMJ from ammunitiontogo.com for $13.95 each plus shipping. Probably more than I'll ever shoot through the gun but I wanted to let you guys know that some stuff is still out there if you look. ammunitiontogo.com also has 115gr CorBon HP's for $20.95/20 and Fiocchi FMJ for $17.49/50. I'm going to order a few more boxes of Aguila right now before you guys get it all!:eek:

[JShirley]

Hey, I like the .38 Super and 9x23mm, but it's not that hard to find a 155-grain .40 JHP @ 1275 fps (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_26&products_id=106). That does beat 124 @ 1350 fps.

Now, if you talk 9x23mm and .40, the 9x23 has a slight advantage.

J

[tipoc]

From 1929 till the development of the 10mm the Super was considered by many to be the most powerful round that could be fired out of a semi. It's velocity and ft. pds. of energy produced at the muzzle were the primary factors which folks looked at when figuring it as more powerful than the .45 acp. Not to mention more powerful than the 9mm.

For the last 25 or so years there have been 3 rounds which have received unprecedented attention from ammo manufacturers and have improved their ballistic performance greatly. These are the 9mm, the 40S&W and the .45 acp. The .38 Super has not received as much attention, unfortunately.

The 9mm is a much better round than it was 20 years ago. But even in it's best loadings, where it is operating at it's peak pressures, the Super can still beat it by 100 fps or so and can do this without reaching peak pressures. For some shooters though the extra punch may not be worth it.


The 9x23 uses a case which has the same external dimensions as the Super. It can operate at higher pressures than the Super though because internally the bottom of the case is stronger and thicker than that of the Super. It actually holds less powder than the case for the Super can but because the case is stronger can produce higher pressures and thus velocities. For example Winchester produces a load with a 125 gr. Silvertip that gets 1450 fps and 583 ft.pds of energy at the muzzle. This is more than any load for the Super that they produce and the 9x23 handloaded can get more.

Yes you can shoot the 9x23 from a 38 Super barrel. A heavier recoil spring will be called for and, if you plan on shooting a lot, maybe a heavier mainspring as well. Barrels for the 9x23 tend to have a shorter life than barrels for the Super though. So I'd shoot it through a dedicated barrel myself.

Now on the 40 S&W lets look at two loads from CorBon:

CorBon offer a 40 S&W load with a 135 gr. bullet at 1325 fps for 526 ft.pds. of energy.

CorBon offers also a good load for the Super of a 125 gr. bullet at 1325 fps and 487 ft pds of energy.

With a heavier and slightly larger bullet the 40 generates as much velocity and more energy. With a 165 gr. bullet CorBon, Remington and Winchester offer loads for the 40 that generate around 480 ft. pds. of energy at about1150 fps.

So if a fella has a 40 S&W he or she may not see the "need" for the Super as it don't give them anything they all ready can't get ballistically.

The 45acp has received alot of development the last few years I'll use CorBon loads as an example again just to keep things even. They offer a 165 gr. load for the 45acp at 1250 fps and 573 ft pds of energy which beats both the above mentioned loads.

Now we could play around with various weight bullets and loads, velocities and energy figures, look at the 357 Sig vs. the Super or the 9x23, argue if 50 ft. per second makes a big difference or 20 grs. makes a big difference but the point is that you don't really ballistically get something from the Super that a person can't get elsewhere. Choices are good.

So what do you get?

You get a round with an interesting history. A round that has been chambered in some of the best handguns ever made. A round that gives you more than the 9mm does. A round that can give you a gun as effective as the .357 Mag in many of it's defensive loadings with more rounds on tap and faster reloads. A round that is easier to reload than a bottlenecked case. A round that can use most any 9mm or 38 caliber bullet giving you many choices if you reload. And a round that has a growing number of good commercial loads available for it. A very good round one I prefer over the 40 S&W, over the 9mm and certainly over the .357 Sig.

A friend and I worked up a load for it a few years back with a 148 gr. semi jacketed lhp bullet at 1300 fps which was a very good deer load.

I like the Super cuz I like it. To me it is one of the best rounds available. Comfortable to shoot.

tipoc

[PO2Hammer]

The 9x23 uses a case which has the same external dimensions as the Super.

That's not correct. The 9x23 Winchester is a tapered, rimless case. The Super is straight and semi-rimmed.

http://www.saami.org/Unsafe_Combinations.cfm

[tipoc]

Yep, I meant same oal. My comments on the powder charge stand though. I don't think shooting them out of a barrel intended for the Super is good practice though as split cases can result. Better off with a barrel intended for the 9x23.

tipoc

[Deltaboy]

Great round if that what you want then carry it.

[Chuck@AC]

I,too,prefer the super and 9x23. I carry them exclusivily and have had no trouble getting ammo. you can shoot the factory super loads in the 9x23 and carry the factory 9x23 for carry.
I have shot no less than 20,000 rnds a year for classes and matches and I find the Newer Nonte chamber (super) to be inherently very accurate. My personal 9x23 will keep ten in a picnic plate at 100 yds and I could ask for no more, especially with me shooting. with factory Mag-Tech ball ammo in .38 super fired in the 9X23 I average about 5" at 50 yds for ten shots. reloads cut that to about 3".... all of 'em kill coyotes well:)

[Chuck@AC]

.....and I will say you can NOT shoot a 9x23 in a properly chambered .38 super barrel. one of the original design goals was to avoid exactly that. I was not real close with John Ricco, but I did build the first gun ever with the final case design and was fortunate enough to spend a great deal of time working with him, albeit over the phone, to understand the long term merits of the design. :D

[SaxonPig]

I have never owned a 9x23, (And neither did many others, eh? One of the great cartridge marketing failures of all time.) but as I recall the case was rimless, being the 9x19 (9mm Luger) stretched to the same length as the semi-rimmed Super case. I would not think one could be fired in the others chamber.

[tipoc]

I'm including some info here from well known pistolsmith R.D. Burns. On his website he says...

Chambers:
There is a problem with the chambers that are out there! Colt uses a very loose chamber. Only Colt knows what reamer they are using. Neither the CP or the Nowlin reamer is perfect. Both need more free bore than they should have for best reliability and accuracy. Cylmer is cutting me a new reamer just for the 9x23 to address this issue. A couple of nationally noted pistolsmiths have suggested 9x23 is just fine in a 38 Super chamber. It works but it ain't "just fine". Chamber the gun to the CORRECT cartridge if you're gonna use it.

Note that he indicates that there is confusion about what to fire out of what. It's also the case that over the years various stretched 9mm rounds have been tried (9mm Largo, 9x23 STW, 9x21, etc) and folks sometimes confuse info or rumors on one with the other. I agree with Burns. If you want the best performance from your gun and the round, and minimize the potential for problems, use the proper barrel for the round.

A link to Burns site on the 9x23 is below and is good reading.

http://www.burnscustom.com/showarticle.php3?article=9x23/9x23WhereAreWe.php3

http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23/reload.html

tipoc

[PO2Hammer]

Yep, I meant same oal.

I figured you did, I just wanted the readers to know there is a difference.

[tipoc]

I figured you did, I just wanted the readers to know there is a difference.

And you're correct to do so. Sometimes I type faster than I remember.

Layne Simpson has a useful book out on custom 1911s which has some useful info on both the Super and the 9x23 (as well as a batch more rounds that have been crammed into Browning's design) and is worth the price for a handy reference.

tipoc

[Chuck@AC]

TIPOC,
While I dont know Mr Burns, I will say that if you read the cartridge prints In the book by Mr Simpson that you mentioned, you will see that in proper chambers,a 9x23 will not seat in a super chamber.

I dont claim any great intimate knowledge of the current load status, but if you read the information on the gun on the cover of that book, you will see that it is the first gun ever in the official 9x23.
That gun was built by yours truly and a 9x23 and .38 super have been at my side since. I have built them from officer size on up and getting back to the origins of the thread,I highly recommend the super and its derivatives as a carry cartridge:)

[tipoc]

Chuck,

I went back to Simpson's book and also took a look at Barnes "Cartridges..." and Forker's "Ammo...". The latter two give slightly different dimensions for the 9x23. Forker gives the OAL of the case as .910 while Barnes has it as .9. Same as the OAL of the Super.

The case of the Super, as we know is a straight one .384 or so all the way. While the 9x23 tapers from about .379 or so to .390.

In a properly built barrel with a proper chamber one should not seat properly in the other. Nor feed reliably. But as you point out "proper" is the key. If the chamber is a bit off? Simpson has a few cautions in this regard which seem to make sense to me.

I've been some interested in the 9x23 for awhile in time I may get a gun, or at least another barrel, for some experimentation.

I see you've moved from Robuck. Still working I hope. Nice gun for Simpson.

tipoc

[Chuck@AC]

TIPOC,
you are correct and thanks for the compliment. And yes I am still building