[kennjen]

Hello all,

New member..old lurker...first post...Again...hello !

I'm a future pistol owner, as I'm currently in process for a permit. So, naturally, I've been trying to chose my first gun. It's complicated by the fact I live in a "communist state" (LOL), NY. Wanted to know what you guys thought about it.....

Here are my criteria, in order of importance:

- Must be reliable and accurate out-of-the-box
- Accommodate my not so large sized hands.
- Accommodate multi use (Home defense + fun + IDPA)
- Ownership pride / Fun to own : Fusion 1911, looks nice for the price.
- Cost : 600$ for just a gun is ideal. I have up to about 1200$, however...
- If high capacity gun -- then a model with pre ban magazine OR one that is not loosing too many rounds
- Being able to run in SSP in IDPA is sort of a plus, I guess....

Because of the 10 round limit, I really don't feel like having a gun, which I can only legally load up to 1/2 capacity. (like SA XDM 9mm with 19 round capacity) Although, if we are losing only 2~3 rounds by going to 10 round limit from full capacity OR if pre ban mags are available, I suppose that's ok.....

I have very little preference for caliber. I have shot few gun rentals and felt that I can handle .45 just fine. (I'm 250#) 9mm maybe preferred only due to cost. I'm willing to go to larger caliber, if I really like the gun. In some cases, larger caliber makes sense, because I'll give up fewer rounds, when I go to 10 round mag, as opposed to doing that in the same model in 9mm.

Here are my list of guns that are currently in the running :

-Sig p220 (10 round of .45)
-Sig p226 (pre ban mag available)
-H&K hk45 (10 round of .45)
-H&K usp (Probably .40 due to availability of pre ban mag)
-Glock various flavors maybe g19 (pre ban mag available, but don't like grip angle...)
-SA XD .45 OR SA XDm .45 (if it ever comes out)
-Some brand name 1911 in .45 or 9mm.

They all have advantages/disadvantages. Some can run in SSP @ IDPA. Some are cheaper. Some have high cap pre ban mag available. Some are prettier than others. Some have high pride of ownership. (Glocks have zero. LOL) But all are dead reliable & bet your life kinda guns.

So, in the end, could you give me your 2 cents in :
- What would YOU get ?
- If I limit myself to 1911s in 9mm or 45 What brand/model would you get. (keep cost and reliability out of box in mind.)

[ScareyH22A]

I'd say go with a 9mm because you can practice more with it. Like someone here recently said, more software than hardware. That being said, probably the HK P30.

[bang_bang]

With your $1,200 limit, you can have 2 nice pistols with that money.

I believe a Rock Island 1911 in .45 is around the $400-450 mark. These are great pistols, many good reviews on here about them. They are interchangeable with Colt parts, if that tells you something (I actually think they are made on old Colt machinery).

9mm will be cheaper to feed. Your state's 10 round capacity law will really throw a lot of options out the window, unless you don't mind getting 10 round magazines or whatever for the gun.

Take a look at the EAA Witness. Base models run around the same as a Rock Island 1911, but their more "match" type pistols are excellent shooters. I own a base model Witness in .45 and love it. Accurate, and I believe they all come with factory 10 round magazines.

[Claude Clay]

sig p239 in 40 and firedragon for a 9mm conversion barrel-ported or not for around $185; sig in the used $600-650 range. same mags and slide spring. try for the DA/SA with the de-cocker. 40 for SD and makes major for IDPA. 9mm for inexpensive practice.
suggest taking the left over $ and buy re-loading [perhaps Lee 4 hole] equipment.

good luck

[SHusky57]

HK45 or Glock 20/21/29/30 (45+10mm). If you are limited to 10 rounds, make those rounds as big as you can.

I really like the feel of the Glock 36 as well, the new single stack .45. It holds 6+1 one rounds, is uber lightweight, and I find it to be extremely comfortable.

If the new polymer guns don't do it for you, get a Sig220 or a 1911.
I don't like the DA/SA of the 220, but I would be interested to try one with a DAK trigger.

I have medium to large hands.

[kennjen]

Thanks much to responses. Some off the cuff replies ...

I've looked at Rock Island. Seems like a nice option. Is it considered dead reliable out of box tho ?

EAA Witness : hmmm.. Gotta look at this. CZ copies ? Witness seems to be 18 rounder...

HK p30 : Love the gun... hate to lose 5 rounds. :mad:

Firedraggon ? : Never heard of it...hmmmmm...off to google.

Thanks again guys. Let me know if there are others to consider.

[WNC Seabee]

If you have smallish hands, I'd stay away from a double stack .45 like the XD. It'll likely be too bulky for you.

An XD in 9mm will have a slimmer grip and is a very fine choice. Very reliable and accurate out of the box. And, as a new gun owner, they are super easy to break down for cleaning.

Personally, I shoot my 1911 a lot more than the XD .45; but the 1911 platform does tend to be finicky. It's an awesome platofrm for somebody that wants to tinker.

So, I shoot the 1911 for fun and carry the XD for self-defense. Before I had the 1911, I shot a lot of IDPA with the XD and was very competitive.

[searcher451]

Lots of good possibilities exist for your consideration. Thing of it is, no one but you can make the decision. So get to a range that rents guns, bring your friends who own guns along, and start running some ammo through some likely prospects. Narrow your choices, run some more ammo, and take your time. A concealed weapon should be perfect in every way; and to figure that out, you have to be patient and give a lot of prospects a trial run before making a final decision.

To paraphrase old Smokey the Bear, only you can decide what gun to carry. You can't get that information from the advice on the internet ... even from a well-meaning board like this one.

[kennjen]

Searcher :
Agreed on me making the decision. I'll do that once I narrow it down some what.

I know that you guys are more experienced (x > zero=me), so I'm asking for help to narrow my selection down and perhaps pointing me to guns I don't know about.

Bang bang : EAA witness looks great. I always liked CZ. Nice price point too... I can't find 10 round cap guns tho.

[22LRFan]

Find something that just fits/fills your hand perfectly (go to stores and hold a lot of pistols)...you definitely do not have to blow your whole budget on just one gun. Save money for ammo and accessories (like a holster or small safe). If the right gun for you happens to be a .45ACP and you've budgeted right then you could always get a .22LR. That's even cheaper to load than a 9MM.

As far as brands or manufacturers, you can get really subjective answers on here. Perhaps you should find what pistol feels good in your hand and just do a search here to see what posters have said about their experience(s) with said pistol.

[bang_bang]

Bang bang : EAA witness looks great. I always liked CZ. Nice price point too... I can't find 10 round cap guns tho.

I'm looking at my EAA Witness manual and it has listed:

9mm-Full Size- 10 rds
9mm- Compact- 10 rds
.38 Super- Full Size- 10 rds
.38 Super- Compact- 10 rds
40SW- Full Size- 10 rds
40SW- Compact- 9 rds
.45 ACP- Full Size- 10 rds <--- I have this one.
.45 ACP- Compact- 8 rds
10mm-Full Size- 10 rds
10mm- Compact- 9 rds

I am under the impression that factory EAA magazines are as listed above.

You can also get a .22 Conversion for the .45 ACP Witness.

[kennjen]

bang bang:

thnx.

[gary vale]

Go to your local range and try em all...

[heron]

Because of the 10 round limit, I really don't feel like having a gun, which I can only legally load up to 1/2 capacity.I don't think you need to worry about that; the magazines packaged with the gun will be capacity-limited for your state, to comply with sales law.

Have you thought of revolvers? I think a nice .357 with 4" barrel would cover a lot of your requirements.

[Leaky Waders]

I agree with Heron's idea...get a 686 and a 617.

Both will be reliable out of the box and have a good trigger.

The 617 will be very affordable to shoot for plinking.

[Cpt. America]

Berreta Px4 storm, Smith M&P, Glock 17, Fnp9, Czp01, Springfeild XD, FN hipower, or Any Sig. 9mm be my choice in all.

[Revolver Ocelot]

someone may call me crazy but...based on your criteria, not so big hands, like the 1911 style, low cap etc, i'd recommend a springfield emp in 9mm.

[cliffy]

Love it. I'm there to teach proper firearm safety. As an NRA Certified Range Safety Officer, I love newbys, especially female shooters. Females have been in the MINORITY of self-protection for far too long. Rather than being silent victims, females are now asserting themselves, especially on the range as they learn. I love it! Cliffy

[Thomas Garrett]

Kennjen, to answer your question or Rock Islands, With my 2 "tacticals", and a couple of friends RIA's (I think 5 more). Not 1 malfunction at all out of the box. Shoot accurate, no feeding problems. We shoot together almost every week. (but) we all shoot the same ammunition, we purchase by the case. 230 gr. FMJ or TMJ. Good luck!:)

PS. Welcome to THR

[kennjen]

Thomas : Thanx again. I've been reading up on Rock Island on another 1911 forum and it seems to have good reputation. It's not pretty'ed up like some others, but seems to be good Bang for the buck and reliable.

I see on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Island_Armory_1911_series they produce 9mm 1911. That actually maybe work for me.

Revolvers : Yes. I love them too. I grew up drooling at colt pythons and .44 revolvers. They have their own beauty. I may go for these as an second gun. I do want an automatic as a first gun, however.

[Thomas Garrett]

KennJen, Sarco is the way to go right now on RIA's. Also on Gunbroker look for Bellshire Hardware, they list them 20-25 at a time. Bought both of my Tacticals from them. (the only one at the time with the FS Bi-tones). Also yes i'm a Colt Revolver Guy. Got 2 Colt OMM's, and a Diamondback. Shoot them all the time. Range night 2 times a week. No Pythons "yet". Good luck on your choice.:D

[rtn]

If you're not used to shooting, you may get into the nasty habit of flinching when you shoot that .45, and "untraining" yourself from that may take a while.

Someone above suggested an inexpensive .45 (Rock Island). I'd maybe get that and a .22 pistol to build muscle memory and train your trigger skills.

[kennjen]

Thomas :

Went to a Sarco site ! This place is a gem. I was always fascinated with hi-power as well and I found a FM hi-power there, which seems to be a good shooter too. (Pre-ban hi-cap magazine to boot)

For these prices I can buy hi-power and a 1911 for a price of a glock !!

P.S. I don't know if you can tell, but I rather have some thing that is a bit different from every one else....

[kennjen]

Up date if any one is interested....As of now, my smaller lists is :

FM hi-power. $300
RIA tactical $400
Glock 19 $500
Hk45 $1000
p30 $900

I really want a hi-power... I wish I could find a cheap charles daly hi-power. Oh well, I hear they take up to 6 month to process permits, so I got a while to think about it.....

[chuckusaret]

Get a Springfield XD 9MM or .40 caliber sub compact, about $500 and spend $100 on Federal Hydra Shok JHP and the rest on WWB FMJ practice ammo.

[CWL]

Welcome kennjen,

My only suggestion is that your first pistol should be one of the better-known brands. That can help take away some misgivings you may have about quality, reliability, etc. It will also be easier to get help and advice from people if the gun is more common. Stay away from clones unless you are really strapped for cash -at least on your first gun.

No problem buying used though.

If you want a M1911, then start with a Springfield Mil-Spec or Loaded. If you want to bump it up another $200, then a Dan Wesson Pointman or Commander Bobtail are excellent pistols for ~$900.

HK45 is an excellent firearm, just make sure that your hands are big enough to operate the controls reliably. You may wish to reconsider a SIG P220, perhaps a police trade-in.

9mm? Just go with a CZ or a Glock. Do you like steel or plastic?

[remingtondude58]

What about a GP 100 from Ruger? It seems like only autos have been listed.

[don95sml]

Right now your shopping list is mighty long, but maybe the replies here will help you narrow the field. My suggestion would be to consider a 1911 design, which should fit your hands well - in particular look at STI, which is a well-regarded brand in the shooting world. One dealer/gunsmith that seems to have good prices is www.brazoscustom.com/ . When on their site, click on "STI Guns", and check out the Trojan 5" for $999.00 (available in 9mm or .45).

[ciwsguy]

kennjen,
I have Glock 17 & Glock 19, then bought a Walther P99AS. Though I really like the P99AS trigger, I shoot my Glocks more accurately than the P99. Don't rule out a Sig Sauer 9mm. I have never shot one and understand they are pricey (about $800), but their performance is supposed to be excellent. If I had to choose from the latest list you provided, I would go with the Glock 19.

[Pack]

Reliability, size, quality, accuracy, no wasted capacity, major caliber, decent price (around or just under your $600 mark):

Find yourself a used, well-kept Beretta Cougar in 45 ACP.

Later, for the benefit of aiding other family members who don't know handguns, or to make things easier for yourself in a home defense scenario, you can pick up the CX4 Storm carbine and have interchangeability of mags/ammo between the carbine and sidearm.

Further fulfills the "different from everyone else" criteria pretty well, too.

[PathinAZ]

Kennjen:
I have rather small hands as well, and have been carrying since about 1990. I have been through MANY handguns, always looking for a better, more comfy carry. If Im gonna be out all day, and of course carrying concealed, I picked the S&W M&P .40 compact. First .40 is a great round, has more FTLBS than the .45 in a smaller cartridge, the gun holds 10+1, it is VERY light, the barrel is 3.5in, 3dot sight and an interchangeable palm cusion on the back of the grip to fit your hand. It is a complete joy to shoot and the .40 cal is affordable. I carry either in a shoulder holster or just stick it in the left inside boot. Amazingly secure there. The price at Cabellas was about $575. Hope that helped. Good luck!

[Deanimator]

I believe a Rock Island 1911 in .45 is around the $400-450 mark. These are great pistols, many good reviews on here about them. They are interchangeable with Colt parts, if that tells you something (I actually think they are made on old Colt machinery).
Actually, I think they're significantly less than that if you order from somebody like Sarco.

From what I understand, they're a good basic M1911 with, unlike Taurus, good customer service. When I get back to work, a nickeled .38 Super will be one of my first purchases.

[Trebor]

I'd skip the FM High Power. While they are the best High Power "clones" out there, they still aren't the same quality as an actual FN or Browning made gun. If you get a High Power, go with FN or Browning. (Same gun, different markings).

Because of the NY state mag restrictions I'd be leaning heavily towards a quality 1911. You can get a .45 with 8 round mags or a 9mm with 10 round mags.

Considering the cost of ammo, I'd lean towards a 9mm 1911. I personally would probably go with STI, Kimber, or Dan Wesson (I think they make a 9mm?) if I went 9mm.

If you go .45 for a 1911 you get some additional quality choices.

I'd skip RIA if you are going to only have one pistol and get a higher quality brand.

You can get a 1911 in 9mm or .45 for less then your max $1200 limit. You will pay more then your $600 floor though.

With the 10 round mag limit all those double stack 9's and 40's are suddenly much less attractive. It's going to be harder to find pre-ban mags for them and with 10 rounds, what's the point?

[glockman19]

With your $1,200 limit, you can have 2 nice pistols with that money.

I agree. Buy two. I'd start with a Glock 19. Why? They are reliable, accurate and practically indestructible. Also 9mm is less expensive and has less recoil. I would get one with night sights.

For the second gun I'd get a revolver...S&W or Ruger. S&W I'd get a 686+ 3" or 4". Ruger I'd get a SP101 or GP 100. You can't go wrong. All will allow you to shoot .38 special or .357mag.

In a 1911 style .45 I'd get a Colt, Springfield, Kimber or other high end gun. you can find entry level Kimbers & Springfields from $600-$800

[starshooter231]

-Sig p226 (pre ban mag available)

You will not be disappointed by this firearm.

[Gardien]

I love my full-sized HK USP 9mm, but its not for small/med hands at all. It will eat +p and +p+ ammo and the standard FMJ are relatively cheap. Fondle 'em first then rent/shoot the finalists to see which you prefer.

[kennjen]

Hmmmmmm.

I appreciate the posts guys ! I really enjoyed hearing your opinions. So an update of my thought process right now.....

--Wheel guns are not dead.
Althought I said I want an automatic, I find my self looking at 327 TRR8 & sp101. Both are sweet looking IMHO AND 8 round capacity in TRR8 is nice. And I like being able to chose. 38spl and 357 mag.

--HK & Sig.
Both brand has fierce followers. I really want these, but cost is jut too excessive. Especially for HK, new magazine for 50 ~ 75$ is just ridiculous.

--1911 in 9mm
I keep coming back to the idea of 1911 in 9mm. Didn't know you can get STI in 9mm. under 1000$. (thanks don95sml )

--XD .45, GLOCK 19
I keep comming back to both of these guns. Because they are just soooo cheap AND perform as good as or better than other 1000$ guns. (For it's intended purpose).

In the end, I'm thinking I'll end up getting XD or glock. Yeah... after all this time comparing, researching, and debating. I wish I can listen to the passionate side of me and buy a custom 1911 in 9mm OR HK that I really lust after, but I don't think I can do it. Call me a cheap ass, but these new tupperware guns perform too well at a good price.

Of course, I may find a HK or sig used in a store and this whole idea may go out the window. OR if my wife has a reverse PMS (AKA : in a good mood) and tells me I can really spend money, I may end up with HK or custom 1911....

I'll definitely let you know in 3 ~ 6 month what I decided....

BYE.

[kludge]

For $600...

XD-40 (you only lose two round to the State) or XD-45.

Glock 23, Glock 38

Smith and Wesson M&P .40S&W/.45ACP

If you only get 10, then why not pick a cartridge with a bigger bullet?

Since you don't like the grip angle of the Glock then I'll narrow it to the XD and the M&P...

I've shot both (in .40S&W), and I thought the M&P was a tad more accurate, I preferred the trigger of the XD. Both have comfortable grips to me. I bought the XD, and it has been flawless

[Hungry Seagull]

Try to avoid the conceal carry version of the M&P. The Grips are really too short for a good two handed weaver hold. You can make it happen but they are going to jump.

Get a good big M&P with the 10 round clips. There will be small, medium and large sides that you can change on those grips to fit your palms better.

But before anything else, try a bunch of handguns and choose from the ones that FIT your HAND the BEST. You will smile when you find one that likes you and wants to be adopted.

[donato]

Kennjen,

What ever you buy, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

Would like to offer one more opinion. While I own a CZ 75 P-01 9mm, which I am totally satisfied with, my son owns a Sig P239 9mm. As some have said, there is nothing wrong with a 9mm and especially with cost of ammo. Somewhere (In this forum, I think) there is a saying attributed to a Navy Seal: With two to the chest and one to the head, I doubt the recipient will notice much difference between a 9mm or .45 acp.

My recommendation (based on my shooting experience with son's P239) is go with a Sig, and I'm not saying the P239 specifically - get one that fits you. They (Sigs) obviously are fine handguns.

The P239 is accurate and it's a lot easier to shoot accurately than some other name brands. For example, I have experience shooting an XDm .40 and I think it's a fine pistol - really do like it and would own one if I had more dollars. But, I think the Sig is easier to shoot with accuracy than the XDm.

There, another opinion.

[kennjen]

M&P are supposedly great guns. But I can't bring myself to consider it. I don't know why. It maybe because I associate S&W with wheel guns.

Hungry : Yup..I'll avoid smaller guns. There is a good possiblity that I may go a bit smaller, however. (i.e. commander size, g19, 4inch XD and etc.)

Donato : Another thumbs up on a Sig ! I only wish they were a bit cheaper...

[ChCx2744]

I think a GREAT first pistol for any gun owner is a Glock chambered in 9mm. Glock offers many models in 9mm.

[donato]

kennjen,

Why don't you just go buy that Hi-Power and worry no more??

[dmazur]

While you didn't mention this as part of your search, you might consider a set of Crimson Trace grips for whatever pistol you get.

I have them for my 1911 and I found they are a great help in dry-firing practice. If you "flinch", you see the dot pull off target. (Batteries are cheaper than ammo, by the way...)

While this is no substitute for range time, I believe it helps. And it is something you can do indoors safely, depending on the temperament of your significant other.

They aren't allowed for IDPA, of course, but they are easy to swap to a style of grip that is allowed.

Some actually use them for CCW, as an alternative to iron sights. (I believe this is how CT is trying to sell them.) While the wisdom of this is debated, many agree that they are OK as an alternative, but not a substitute for skill with iron sights.

These are rugged and reliable. The only downside I've found is the cost. Around $350. You may now pick yourself up off the floor... :)

[christcorp]

As has been already mentioned; if it's your first gun, you should get a revolver. Revolvers are simpler to shoot. Less chance of malfunction. And Easier to learn on. You can get a decent 357 magnum that can also shoot 38 specials and 38 special +P. You'll have a large variety of rounds to determine which one fits best for you.

But the key to having a gun is practicing. You can't buy a gun; especially your 1st gun; shoot a box of ammo through it; and pretend that you're now an experienced gun owner who can protect yourself and your family.

Buy a revolver. Buy also a 22 pistol if you can afford it. Put a couple thousand rounds through the 22. Put 500-1000 rounds through the revolver. (that's only 20 boxes). Then you'll better understand your capabilities; your gun's capabilities; as a tool what it can do for you; and most of all what it can't do for you.

[tprice]

ken, i had an XD for a while and you won't be dissapointed; if you are going to shoot a lot (>1000 rounds/year) then stay away from the subcompact and get the standard 4" version XD. My 9mm SC's recoil rod was getting chewed up by heavy shooting; it's rear support disc is very thin and wears quickly.

Since you are limited to a 10 round mag, then the XD(m) is out of the running.

I would also have suggested the SIG P250 (you can change the caliber from 9 to 357 to 40 to 45 and not have to re-register the gun) but it's not Cali legal (no 10 round mag for it).

If you CAN, really look for a P225/P6 SIG. As a european police gun, it's made for a single-stack 9mm (8 round) mag. The P226 is nice, but they may be asking a bit for it with pre-ban mags in NY. A used P225 is often found under $400.

[10-Ring]

For a new gun owner, I always go simple -- usually a 22lr wheelgun. Not the sexiest thing around but a great way to learn your basics on the cheap.
As for your choices, I would go w/ something that has a DA/SA trigger (once you master a DA trigger, you can probably shoot anything) that has a 22lr conversion kit for the cheap practice w/ the platform of your choice.

[.357MagTaurus]

How about a Taurus .357 mag revolver ( Model 608). It has a 8 shot cylinder. Great fun at the range. Fourteen year old Grandson has shot it See if you can find one at a shop or show to try on for size. Available in 4". 6" or 8 3/8" barrel lenghts. Mine has the 4", the long barrel would be a real cannon. Will shoot 38 spl or +P and .357 mag. 38's are cheaper for target practice. The .357 mag rounds (158 gr.) will give you a Testosterone Rush. LOL

[BCRider]

I'm surprised that no one other than Gary Vale back on page one suggested the obvious option. And that was to get Kennjen around to one of the commercial ranges and try out as many guns as practical.

Kennjen, you owe it to yourself to seek out a couple of such ranges and try out as many options as you can manage. Even if it means a bigger day trip to hit up a bigger town depending on where you live. They all fit your hands differently and have slightly differnt feel to them.

Don't worry about accuracy for the test drive phase. That can come later when you're learning how to best shoot a handgun. Just worry about how the guns feel as far as grip (is the grip area crowded? Do your thumbs end up sitting on stuff that they shouldn't? Can you get enough finger wrap about the grips? etc) and how they shoot (watch for the ones that lift more in recoil and which puts a grin on your face).

Take notes. LOTS of notes. And as you go between ranges don't be afraid to try some of the same gun(s) along with the new ones so your comparative impressions are more immediate.

All the advice given is fine if the shooters telling you to buy a whatever happen to have the same hand size and similar tastes in shooting. But they are not you. The best person to tell you which gun to buy is you. And you'll get a far better idea of which to buy from shooting a bunch of them.

Now I'll toss in my own generalities. You're looking for something unique. You're in good company since a lot of folks want something unique so now nothing is unique unless you want to hunt down an old Automag or shoot a cartridge that is even more hard to find than the regular ammo is these days. I say forget about looking for unique at least as far as your first gun goes. Stick with mainstream and revel in the ability to both find parts and ammo for your new toy. Go unique for your second gun so you've still got ol' reliable to fall back on.

100% reliability? You may as well drop that concept right now. Guns are mechanical devices. There's no 100% reliability to be found. However most of the mainstream brands are not far off that mark. But since anything can fail it's important to know that the company is quick to back up their product. I'd choose one that does so and that has a rep for having parts on hand. 1911's are excellent choices from this aspect since there's so many options for both cloned guns and aftermarket parts. And any smith worth his primer can work on them. No exclusive factory training required.

If you're planning on shooting a lot and shooting boxed factory ammo then I'd suggest stick to 9mm or .40S&W. Other ammo options are far more pricey. But if you're looking at reloading pretty much right away then choose whatever you want. Other than MAYBE 10mm since even brass can be hard to find for that caliber. And if you're shooting semi then you WILL loose brass here and there regardless of how well you clean up and scrounge. Better to stick to more readily available sizes for your first handgun.

I can't say enough good things about using a .22 for training and reducing your shooting costs. They will really help you avoid a lot of the problems and allow you to learn the good lessons which then will "muscle memory" over to the center fire guns. And lets not forget that if you go through a couple of magazines of .22 for each magazine of whichever center fire cartridge you choose that your cost per hour to shoot will be reduced remarkably.

[RDak]

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/XSE.asp

[harmon rabb]

I'd suggest a 9mm simply because 9mm ammo can still be found without too much difficulty and because it's so much cheaper.

Anyway, with $1200, you could get two nice guns. If I were you, I'd get a 9mm (sig, glock, springfield, etc., it doesn't really matter, get what fits your hand and what you can get a good deal on) and a .357 revolver. That would leave you with an autloader that shoots the most common round for autoloaders and a revolver that shoots the most common rounds for revolvers... and for home defense, you can load the revolver with .357 hollow points and have at least as much power as a .45.

Just my $.02

[Norinco982lover]

XD .45 Compact. Mine came with 3 of the 10 round compact mags...of course I bought it used tho. Go for it if you can find one.

~Norinco

[mljdeckard]

All of the guns you have suggested are great, I'm going to nudge you towards a 1911 for a few reasons. They are actually well-sized for people with small hands. Remember that when they were designed and issued, the average American male was significantly shorter than now, therefore the hand size was smaller. I've known several ladies who handle full-size 1911s without a problem. (Including my mother.) There are two different sizes of mainspring housings (the rear of the grip of the pistol) and the trigger can have different sizes as well if it's necessary.

The capacity limits of the Clinton era AWB was one of the major factors in pushing the 1911 back into fashion. Like you say, what fun is 19 rd capacity if you're limited to 10 anyway?

We will argue for days (decades actually) over which is the best round for....everything. Having carried 9s, .40s, and .45s, I'm back to 230 gr .45 HSTs, and I don't see myself changing. There is subtle difference between real-world effectiveness of any of these rounds, but few would argue that the biggest one you can handle is going to be the best. You have already said you shoot and like the .45, so why go down?

For practice, you can use a .22 lr conversion kit. I use a Ciener for my 1911, and it lets me practice until my hands get tired without spending hundreds of dollars in ammo. They run about $250. You can get a good 1911 AND this kit for the budget you are talking about.

For brand, there are many good ones in the price range you are talking about. I would recommend staying away from brands that use non-standard 1911 parts. (The SIG 1911s come to mind.) There is a big world of upgrades for 1911s, but only if your gun can fit them. RIA, Taurus, Springfield Armory, Colt, etc all make great pistols in your price range. FOR ME, I use a Kimber Custom II I bought about 5 years ago for $630 NIB, and I use it for everything. When I say everything, I mean, if my commander would let me, I would carry it to war tomorrow. I conceal it, open carry it when I'm out in the woods, shoot .22s with it at the range, teach new guys to shoot with it. Some guys scream about Kimbers having problems, mine hasn't hiccuped. I don't remember the last malfunction I had with it. Kimber sells several times more 1911s than the competitors, so the lemon rate may appear high, until you compare it to the actual number of units sold. A few of my friends have switched to Kimber after shooting mine, none have regretted it. Also, they are made by your boys there in Yonkers.

[bigtim6656]

i would say to start out a 9mm. I would stay away from the 1911 for a first gun. I am on my third and am still unsure if i am ready for the cost and work. I am getting a glock 21 soon. But it is wide. I would say the g19 would be good but any of your list would be a great gun.

[c919]

how about a S&W M&P? have you looked into those? very versatile and really reliable & accurate.

[Noxx]

I wish I could find a cheap charles daly hi-power

No you don't.

I bought a Daly HP on the cheap, and it seemed fine at first but after a few thousand rounds it revealed itself to be sort of a piece of crap.

Now it's the gun I let people shoot at the range when I don't want them handling the guns I like.

[kennjen]

I was going to leave this alone, until I got my gun. But since I got a nice host of replies, I thought it would be rude to just leave it alone.

Some replies to comments made. I'm not going to answer to specific people, because some opinions were echoed twice or more...

1) "GO try out some guns"
Yup I agree to do this. However, I'm just attempting to narrow down choice while my permit is in process.

2)"GO get a revolver" & "Go get a .22"
I understand your reasoning of why I should. But, since I have a 4 letter reason for this being the only gun I will ever purchase, I have to get a multi use gun.

For a second gun (if possible).....sure...I would love a ruger .22 or sp101. Actually, I'd REALLY like sp101.

3) "there are no 100% reliablity".
Close to it as possible. I hear many Glocks, xd, and sigs with "I have not had any failures what so ever with this gun. Well, one time slide got stuck open, but my finger was on a ....." That's what I want. I'll take Six sigma or close to it.

4) "~~suggest 9mm or .40 sw"
I really should stay with those for cost reasons. Although I keep seeing guns I want in .45......

5) Glocks....(G19??)
I like the size, function, and caliber. I even like how it looks, but I don't like the grip. I also don't like the lack of ext safety. We can argue this point all day, but it is MHO, and it's my gun...so there.

6) "You're looking for something unique."
Yes....I've called it "Pride of ownership" and so forth, but that's what I want. Some thing unique....or at least "Neat". HK, Sig, Hi-power falls in to this for me. (I swear, I don't want it just because it's "Expensive"...) But, these are expensive.

cheers

[IEGPM]

IMO if your looking to spend about$600 I would go with the S&W M&P. You have your choice of 9mm, 40, or 45. Not to mention it comes with three grips.(Small, medium, and large) It is my personal choice, and active carry gun. Brand new the are around 650. Previously I owned a Glock 23. However, out of the box I out shot myself on the M&P. Honestly, Worth looking into. Not to mention I have never had any form of malfunction on mine.

[kennjen]

After getting my permit 2nd qtr 2010, I finally got my gun. So, I thought I report back as promised.

I purchased a :

HK USP compact 9mm !! (used, 500$)

With my money and permit in hand the final considerations were being made to :
-Glock 17, 19, 26
-CZ 75, p-01
-HK p7 (B stock)

I was surfing gunbroker all the time, but was having a hard time finding a gun that I was willing to buy used for the price I wanted (around 500$).

Used guns I was looking for were :
-Hi-power
-HK p2000sk, usp compact

After all this, I FINALLY decided to get a glock and joined GSSF. GSSF allows you to get glocks for around 425$ (g17, 19, 26 and other),when you join the GSSF for 35$. Well, but then, there was a problem. All (3) of the local GSSF affiliated dealer decided that they weren't either going to honor the GSSF program OR claimed ignorance. Basically, refused to sell it to me for that price. So, I called Glock, who manages the GSSF. They promised to fix the issue with these dealers asap. But this left a bad taste in my mouth.

While I waited Glock to fix this issue, I saw this USP compact without a reserve on gunbroker, which I kept an eye on. In the last hour of the auction, the gun was still at 460$. So, I bid and won for 465$. Out the door price was 515$ (shipping, ffl, & every thing).

I have the gun in my hands...but have not shot it yet. But the gun looks to be in good working order. It does have some holster wear, but who cares for the price.

Here is a pic.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/kennjen/Guns/pix683008968.jpg

You can see the holster wear on the pic, but it's really not that bad in real life. It's just how the light is being reflected.

I'm pretty happy with the purchase. I'm REALLY happy I didn't buy a glock.

[JohnBiltz]

If you have a 10 round limit I'd either go .45 or subcompact. I'm not necessarily saying go Glock but if you are looking at a G19 why not just get a Glock 26. I don't see a point in getting something bigger that doesn't hold more rounds and I and others shoot the G26 better than a G19. I don't see the point unless you have shot it decided one shoots better than the other.
I don't see the advantage of a 10 round 9mm. Go for a small 9mm or a .45. I'm not a 1911 fan for your only gun. I've heard it compared to a Ferrari, no one has a Ferrari as their only car. But lots of people make guns chambered in .45.
Test fire your choices before you buy. If you find .45 recoil excessive don't get one no matter what people say.
If I had to carry in NY I'd carry a Glock 26, I know this to be true because its what I carry in Arizona and I have a lot more choices here.

[hardworker]

Stainless 92FS. Reliable out of the box

[kennjen]

I'm the OP. You guys do see that I purchased a gun already....

Please see 2 posts above.

[9mmforMe]

Good purchase Ken...looks nice. H&K have a great reputation and you have yourself a nice first handgun. Enjoy!

[KingMedicine]

I have a RIA tactical in 9mm, got it for 460 shipped out the door. Its a great shooter and has had no issues since day one. 1911's can be a little finnicky. I have a fusion 1911, which is by far my favorite gun. But i would rather carry my Sig or Glock in a situation where i need it to be reliable.

If you want a reliable plinker and IDPA gun, i would go with a Sig P226 or Glock. Then maybe move into the 1911 platform after that.

[kennjen]

I actually considered RIA as well. I forgot about that. 9mm tac does look nice.

Having said that, the lack of night sights bothered me a bit. I wanted night sights without a mod. (although I hear fusion sights fit ?)