[C.R.Sam]

Current thread in Stratagies n Tactics.

Cut case of shot load nearly through just below the shot charge.
Idea being that shot charge will stay cased and act as a slug.

I think a very bad idea.
Likely the front portion of the hull will lodge in the early part of the barrel while the load strips out and goes forth.

Setting the shooter up for firing subsequent shot with obstruction in bore.

Or seperation while still in chamber and causing next round to not chamber.

Thoughts ?

Sam

[Kharn]

:what: :scrutiny: :uhoh:
For anyone thats thinking about this:
Dont ask to use one of my shotguns to test that out, and please let me know if you're gonna try it at the range when I'm there.

Kharn

[mnrivrat]

I'm thinking Sam has it 100% correct . DANGEROUS !

Don't try it at home, don't try it on the range, don't try it during the day and don't try it at night ! Don't try it near me - Buy some slugs ! I can't think of any emergency requiring a slug that would be more dangerous than the risk of doing this . YIKES !

:what: :what: :what: :scrutiny: :scrutiny:

[Sam]

Gentlemen,
What you are referring to is commonly called a "Cut Shell".
They were very popular among deer poachers in Michigan. Kept you from being found in posession of a slug or buckshot out of season, and are specifically proscribed in that state.

They work, and to my knowledge have been fired sucessfully from a whole lot of guns. Everything from an IJ Champion to a browning Auto 5.

No I do not consider them very safe but the ones I have seen do clear the bore and stay together till impact. I'd like to measure the effect it might have on a full choke barrel.

Effect on deer is much like a giant Glaser Safety Slug

[SDC]

Also been called a "New Zealand Slug" (why, I don't know); these have also been used in Northern Canada by Indians who ran up across something that needed a bigger punch than the birdshot they were carrying. I think most modern shotguns would probably hang together if you absolutely HAD to try this, but I still wouldn't call it "safe", especially for the little trouble that carrying an extra slug or two is.

[TrapperReady]

"Would you use them here or there?"

I would not use them here or there.
I would not use them anywhere.

I do not like them C.R. Sam.
I do not like cut shells or Spam.

--------------------

Sorry for the above, but I just finished reading some books to the kids before bedtime.

[sm]

Agree- Bad Idea. IME, NOT 100%

Done some T&E . I have a wooden tool with a razor blade, Shell Saver is one name I recall it refrerred to. If reloader goofs ( forgets lets say to punch primer) but finishes shell, shell can be cut to retrieve pwdr, wad etc.
I used to see and measure factory components from paper to plastic shells.

My test guns were old single shots in the .410, 28, 20 and 12.

Well I was sucessful for the first 5 ,"emergency slugs"... # 6 bulged and split bbl. Don't wanna think what could have happened. if a repeater. Guns were mounted and tripped by cord from a safe viewpoint. Shortened bbl and gun ok.

I tried to come up with a slug for 28 ga...Toppers are tough...to a point :)

[mete]

When they first came out with steel shot they found that with the larger sizes of shot the shot would rust into a solid mass and burst the barrel. This could happen with ammo right out of the box ( not just the ones that had gotten wet during hunting). Federal dealt with this by copper plating all the larger steel shot.

[C.R.Sam]

these have also been used in Northern Canada by Indians who ran up across something that needed a bigger punch than the birdshot they were carrying. I have a problem with this one.
If they were carryin pre-cut shot shells, why weren't they carryin slugs ?

If they weren't carryin em precut and Paul the Polar bear gets unfriendly, hardly think Paul gonna take time out while shooter cuts his load.

Sam I am, grn grits in a can.

[SDC]

Sorry Sam, I don't think I made myself clear. Usually, these were used against moose and deer, when said Indian was out hunting grouse. It wouldn't surprise me if they were used occasionally against bears, but most of them at least have the sense not to deliberately rile a bear.

[Horsesense]

"# 6 bulged and split bbl." I don't doubt it, but that’s the first time I have hared if it happening. What gage gun was it and what was the choke?

"Ringing shells" is what it's called in the south and it was common back in the old days for squirrel ant rabbit hunters to take a dear with this method. The practice came about as a result of game laws and hungry kids.

This is a link to the original post.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44189

[JohnBT]

Thanks for the memories, I haven't heard anybody mention this topic in 40 years. I've never seen anybody actually kill something with an altered shell, but I have a few relatives who claimed they did.

I think the answer to the question of why bother is that money was scarce back then and the main state road(current Rt. 29) to Charlottesville was still dirt in the '30s and shopping was time-consuming project. Everybody pretty much shot hi-brass number 6 for everything and there weren't any deer back then to eat the apples. This partially explains how it ended up that my father, uncle and grandfather killed a bear with birdshot. Guess they didn't have time to ring a shell or two after the bear ran up on them. :)

John

[mnrivrat]

What it seems to boil down to is not wether it is possible, but rather is it safe, and is it an emergency option.

At the least it will significantly increase the pressure behond good common sense (and what the guns are designed to withstand on any regular basis). That makes it unsafe .

Then there is the "emergency" factor which I haven't heard one story yet of them being used in an emergency - and realy see no place for there use for any legitimate purpose.


:scrutiny:

[sm]

Horsesense, my SIXTH experimental slug , bulged and split the bbl.

Born,raised, and still live in the south. I had heard of ringing shells. I heard stories of sucess and tragedy. I was testing using Single shot 12 bore, IIRC a Topper. (H&R with full choke). FWIW In using a cyl bore, in another Topper ( cyl I know because we cut it) Same thing happened. We tested paper and plastic hulls.

MY conclusion then, the persons whom were sucessful, and or lucky had a combination of using paper shells, guns had longer Forcing cones, and the shot was softer ( less antimony) allowing for deformation of shot somewhat though in lump form. Just My Theory from testing for myself.

Pretty sure a buffered load of XXmag in # 6 ( number six) copper plated shot will bulge, split a bbl. Because I tried it in a cyl bore 20 ga, and it happened, in both bbls.

Had time, money and some donations to the sake of my curious testing mind once upon a time.

[dport]

I saw this for the first time two weeks ago. The man who was doing this was also the first man I've seen who could keep up a sustained (ie full magazine) rate of fire out of a pump that was faster than I could out of a semi-auto. He was an older experienced shotgunner type who accomplished the "cut shell' feat with no ill effects in 6-7 trys.