[UKJ]

Can I ask why some shooters insist on a DAO (or variant thereof) for their full sized auto pistols?

For LEO's, I can kind of understand - a nervous cop with a hair trigger might accidentally waste a shoplifter or their tactical gloves might set off an AD hitting their buddy in front, but why do some US civilians insist on a DAO trigger on an auto?

I always get my best results at the range with a single action trigger and if I'm using a wheelgun, I always cock the hammer first to ensure a smooth trigger pull.

If I were to carry, then a DA/SA with an exposed hammer and a decocker would probably be my preferred option.

Again, I'm talking about full sized autos and not pocket carry CCWs. I'd like to know your thoughts please.

[ScareyH22A]

I realized that I shoot much better with my tiny DAO because of it's smooth trigger than my SA fullsize. But most importantly, my controlled rapid fires are much tighter.

[Pizzagunner]

DAO is a firm favorite of the poorly trained and the "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" crowd. Some good shots tolerate DAO for a desired small gun platform, but they are in the minority.

Lots of overlap and lots of badges in those first two groups. Face it, most cops shoot way fewer rounds per year than most gun enthusiasts. It is best that their manual of arms is dumbed down.

[REAPER4206969]

Are we talking traditional DAO, or GLOCK, M&P, Etc. DAO?

[jfh]

The mechanical differences for firearm triggers really don't have to be phrased in value judgements about skills or political assessments of groups. However, those concerns did play a part in the development of semi DAO triggers.

DAO triggers on SAs became more popular about twenty years ago, when the latest round of "gun control" activism geared up. That is, according to the (pro-)gun SD theories of the time, having a DAO trigger would effectively eliminate any charges based on canards about ADs or 'hair triggers.' IOW, there was an emerging notion of SD use requiring a deliberate action.

That deliberative action helps make a good shoot, period.

As for skill with DA-SA triggers, DAO triggers, or similar strokes on revolvers--it really comes down to enough drills to develop the muscle memory.

My first handgun for recreational shooting was a 1911--and eventually, it had a trigger job resulting in a crisp letoff at 2&3/4 lbs. However, my HD gun was a (S&W) 4043, which has a DAO trigger. The 4043, with an action-smoothing job, had a nominal 8-lb smooth stroke. With sufficient practice I was proficient with either pistol, and could readily switch between the two. (The different ergonomics are another story, however.)

I started revolver shooting last year--virtually exclusively DAO with j-frame revolvers. These revolvers have a nominal 9-10 lb. stroke.

Enough repetitions have brought my skills up here, too. It's really just a matter of practice and training. Personally, I now prefer DAO shooting, unless it's bulleye-type shooting, with anything but the 1911.

Jim H.

[kyo]

It can be preference ya know. Not all of us are all about the 1911 locked and cocked. I can just as easily pull a DA trigger without a safety on instead of taking the safety off a cocked 1911 and pulling the trigger. Idk what the OP is talking about, I am talking about Traditional Double Action.

[UKJ]

Both traditional DAO and variants thereof - so all the DAK, QA, LEO, etc. trigger jobs.

I've fired the Walther P99 with the QA trigger, which is kind of like a two stage rifle affair. I thought it was a neat gimmick but I wondered about it's real word applications.

Surely, in a situation where you have your finger on the trigger, you're going to pull it (or at least be prepared to).

Unfortunately, I think Pizzagunner might be correct and the DAOs are only in existence (along with the 58 safeties that most guns have these days) to stop the uneducated from shooting themselves or other people.

If you can shoot more accurately with a DAO trigger, then I take my hat off to you. It's a skill I have never mastered properly.

Quick Edit: I stated that if I had to carry it would be a DA/SA with an exposed hammer and decocker. That way I could carry in Condition 2 and pull back the hammer manually if time allowed for a SA first shot.

[MrBorland]

Unfortunately, I think Pizzagunner might be correct and the DAOs are only in existence (along with the 58 safeties that most guns have these days) to stop the uneducated from shooting themselves or other people

Really? Actually, I was just thinking you and Pizzagunner ought to post a target on the posted link below before making such bold statements.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=439939

I shot the centerfire portion with a DAO revolver, and I didn't shoot myself nor the ceiling tiles. "Education" aside, if either of you can do better (with your gun of choice), I'll publicly acknowledge the fact. (and pssst...I've shot similarly with a borrowed Kahr DAO pistol).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5509068&postcount=15

if I'm using a wheelgun, I always cock the hammer first to ensure a smooth trigger pull.

Obviously.

That doesn't mean there isn't merit to a DAO trigger. Some may simply shoot better with them. I've never found one trigger type or gun platform to be inherently better than another.

If you can shoot more accurately with a DAO trigger, then I take my hat off to you. It's a skill I have never mastered properly.

Shootin's shootin'. The fundamentals never change. Spend more time shootin'. Pizzagunner too.

[REAPER4206969]

Unfortunately, I think Pizzagunner might be correct and the DAOs are only in existence (along with the 58 safeties that most guns have these days) to stop the uneducated from shooting themselves or other people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnCnqOQSQ8E
It does not seem to be working out too well for them. Double action Beretta 92FS.
:uhoh:

[David E]

DAO's were created because of bureaucrats trying to make guns less dangerous, but it actually had a positive side.

There have been cases where depts removed the single action capability from revolvers to remove that tempation for the cops or prevent the accusation from lawyers claiming the cop created a "hair trigger" situation where the gun fired accidentally.

Many, if not most, people that say they can "shoot a revolver alright" really mean they cock the hammer for each shot.

Few take the time to learn how to fire DA accurately, slow or fast.

The TDA (Traditional Double Action) guns where the first shot is DA followed by SA shots thereafter addressed part of the concern: initial threat management.

For example, if you are holding a 1911, do you manage your threat with the safety on or off?

Also, the immediate change-up in trigger length, pull and feel between the first and second shot was difficult for many to overcome.

Another issue that came up was, if shots are fired, but there is still ammo in the gun, you'd need to remember to decock the gun (often a two-step process) or to reapply the safety.

DAO addresses these issues.

[The Wiry Irishman]

I've heard some revolver people voice a preference for DAO semis because they like a DA revolver pull better.

[UKJ]

MrBorland,

I'm sure you are an excellent shot with your DAO pistol, but that still hasn't answered my question as to why civilians would deliberately choose a DAO pistol over a SA, especially for range work.

Telling me go back to the range and practice is meaningless. Education with firearm safety bears little relation to how many holes you can put in a target.

I suspect that DAO (and it's variations), plus the vast number of safeties have been created to protect firearms manufacturers from legal issues by the 'uneducated' shooting themselves and others. The number of self inflicted accidental handgun injuries in the US is astronomical.

Similarly, I suspect that there are a lot of new shooters who are nervous or have little confidence with firearms. If this is the case, I can understand why they would want a DAO pistol, but I don't believe they should own one (or any firearm) within 5 miles of me.

With all of us being human and therefore fallible, I'd like to think that every shooter has had one of those 'Jesus!'* moments when they've ND / AD on a range with no real ill effects and that experience has taught them to handle weapons safely in the future. But some people never learn or are never taught properly in the first place.

*If you are very religious, please excuse my blasphemy, I had no intention to denegrate your beliefs

Though this may be a very unpopular suggestion, perhaps it's time we thought about a mandatory safety course for all first time firearm owners.

[AK103K]

If you can shoot more accurately with a DAO trigger, then I take my hat off to you. It's a skill I have never mastered properly.
I have to ask, just how hard did you try?

DAO (and DA) type triggers are not at all difficult to learn to shoot, and your most apt to find, your groups will shrink once you learn to shoot with them.

At the very least, you will be a more rounded shooter, and can pick up just about anything and shoot it reasonably well.

On the other hand, those who can only shoot a SA gun are usually limited in their skills, and more often than not, for some reason seem to require an even lighter trigger than is prudently safe, especially on a gun thats to be used instead of played with.

If your to lazy to at least try and learn to shoot DA, you should at least just admit thats the reason why, since it takes no real effort other than a little practice to learn, and so much more is gained by dong so.

[bigmike45]

UKJ,

I love the way I am able to shoot my DAO guns, but the main reason I like them is for concealment and being able to draw them from concealment without fear of the hammer spur snagging on a shirt or pocket seam.
Here are my two Rugers that are factory DAO and perfect for concealed carry.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/mike_seale/Ruger357magsR.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/mike_seale/Ruger357magsL.jpg

and accuracy is certainly not an issue with them.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/mike_seale/W145ST15.jpg

[jfh]

"...Telling me go back to the range and practice is meaningless. Education with firearm safety (my emphasis) bears little relation to how many holes you can put in a target."


A couple of comments here, before this discussion seques off....

I don't see where Mr. Borland suggested range work for continued safety education. Insofar as his side comment about shooting the ceiling--it is a comment strictly about himself. So, let's not get undies in a bundle about possibly-implied derision.

There's nothing wrong with your suppositions about the reasons for various DA triggers and decocking mechanisms. You may well be right that newbie shooters are attracted to DAO triggers. But, learning to shoot--including fundamental skills and safety--has nothing to do with the trigger per se. It has to do with learning the requisite concepts and rules and learning the handling skills that demonstrate them.

As for mandatory training--well, that topic is mostly a political discussion, so I won't pursue it.

Now, restate for me your question about DAO triggers--I am confused about what your topic is.

Jim H.

[UKJ]

Hi AK103K,

I have indeed fired pistols in a double action capacity, though mainly revolvers and the intial groupings were no where near as good as with SA auto pistols.

True, I might have given up a bit too easily and thought to myself 'to hell with this, why am I shooting this antiquated weapon system, it's not as good' or words to that effect. It seemed pointless (in my opinion) to actually make a conscious decision to go 'backwards' in terms of weapon technology, capacity and ease of use.

Again, I'd like to point out that my question about DAO only refers to full sized, civilian owned, auto pistols - not LE weapons or CCWs - where a strong case for DAO is perfectly viable.

Quick Edit: Apologies jfh, the real question is why buy a set up with an awkward, heavy trigger system when you can get a lighter, smoother system instead?

[Erik]

Why? There are a variety of reasons; which one doesn't really matter. Folks who have decided on the various trigger configurations which fall under the OP's broad definition of "DAO" in post #7 aren't wrong. They merely have different preferences than the those who prefer SAO and D/SA actions.

And some of those folks can flat out shoot. Many better than any argument to the contrary; and likely the critic behind the argument.

[AK103K]

but that still hasn't answered my question as to why civilians would deliberately choose a DAO pistol over a SA, especially for range work.
Believe it or dont, but DA shooting forces you to shoot tighter groups, mainly because it forces you to concentrate on your sights and pay less attention to the trigger. If your concentrating on your sights, you tend to get that "surprise break" and dont anticipate the shot.

The trigger really isnt as critical as some seem to think. As long as its clean, heavy isnt a bad thing, nor will it hinder you from shooting well.

Those of us who do shoot DA/DAO know its not hard to learn, and I know I personally dont believe those who tell me they "cant" shoot a DA trigger. What I hear is they never bothered to put any effort out to try, and are just making excuses.

[chris in va]

I just bought my first DAO gun, a Kahr K9. I was simply blown away how easy it is to shoot this gun accurately, compared to the long, hard DA pulls on my Ruger, CZ, S&W and Sig. Night and day difference.

Shorter, lighter pull. None of the mush from the other striker fired guns I've tried, Glock and XD.

[UKJ]

Thank you all for your answers. I apologise if I've taken my own post off topic by linking it with the firearm safety aspects. I'd also like to apologise to MrBorland, I may have interpreted his post in an aggressive way and responded inappropriately.

So the simple answer is...personal preference. Some shooters not only like but excel with DAO pistols. Who'd have thunk it?

In the meantime, I'll try giving DA revolvers another chance at the range, but I'll stick with SA for the autos, it just seems right to me.

All the best,

'Lazy' UKJ

[Pizzagunner]

Somehow double posted

[kyo]

To keep inciting that only newbs would go for DA's or DA/SA's is kinda ignorant.
Why do I want a heavy trigger pull? Because I don't want to accidentally fire when I don't mean to if I have to pull out. Does that make me a newb? Not really. It just means that I have a consideration for things. And please, spare me the part where more "experienced" gun owners don't have those negligent discharges you speak of.
http://www.thegunzone.com/nd.html
http://www.negligentdischarge.com/
Another thing I disagree with, when you say that you don't want those people within 5 miles of you, you should realize that even you were not born with gun knowledge and experience. What I mean to say is that everyone learns somewhere.
And I am pretty sure Single action came before Double action. So, technically, all those single actions you are talking about are the older technology. ;)

[AK103K]

Pizzagunner,

How much actual experience do you have to qualify your statements?

I'm going with little or none, but please, do enlighten us. :rolleyes:

[UKJ]

Hi kyo,

My 5 mile exclusion zone still stands for nervous shooters lacking in confidence and ill at ease with firearms, especially if they've just bought their first pistol from a gun store and have had no form of safety training.

I certainly don't want to infringe the rights of others when it comes to firearms ownship, but then again, I don't want to die either. Thanks to You Tube, I've witnessed some truly ignorant people handling and shooting firearms and it has put the fear of God into me.

I never said that experienced gun owners have never had a negligent discharge, I've said the exact opposite. At one time or another, just about every shooter has had an AD / ND. Thankfully, most of these happen at a range and no one is hurt. On the plus side, after the AD / ND, most shooters usually treat their weapons with a more safety conscious focus from then on.

Single Action Auto Pistols came before Double Action Revolvers? Can I borrow your time machine please?:neener:

[Mastiff]

FWIW, I have very small hands, and I can not reach the trigger on most Double Action handguns. I have a CZ-82 that I have to shoot single action, I can not reach the trigger when it is on Double Action. The only two DAO pistols I have found that I can reach the trigger on are the Kahr PM-9 and the Keltec P3AT. I had a S&W 686 that I shot by cocking with my thumb, but I couldn't shoot it worth a darn.
Since I like the higher powered rounds and don't have a lot of money, I pretty much only shoot single action pistols. I can shoot the Colt 1911 with the short trigger, the Star Super is a better reach, and the various Tokarevs even better. My present carry pistol is a Tokarev chambered in 9x23 Winchester, the ballistic duplicate of the 357 Magnum. I think that DA/DAO/SA is pretty much a personal choice, which depends on what works best for the individual.

Kyo. he didn't say Single Action Auto, he said just Single Action. He is correct.

[GRIZ22]

For LEO's, I can kind of understand - a nervous cop with a hair trigger might accidentally waste a shoplifter or their tactical gloves might set off an AD hitting their buddy in front, but why do some US civilians insist on a DAO trigger on an auto?


Don't you think a civilian can be nervous and have an AD? I personally have no use for a DAO auto. I've not talking a Glock type action which is classified as a DA by ATF because there was noithing like it when Glock came to the US in the 80s. One of the reasons DAO came about is not only LEOs but others wanted a consistent trigger pull and high capacity. A traditional DA/SA auto is not hard to master but leaving out the SA did away with one more task to train. DAO is not a crutch for the poorly trained just another system designed to meet a demand.

[warnerwh]

I'd certainly like to see people shoot as accurately at the range shooting double action as well or better than single action. Personally I'd say this is very unusual due to the fact of the long trigger pull. Whoever said you concentrate better shooting DA has no idea what they're talking about. I've been punching paper for 35 years. My apologies for being blunt but I am being honest also.

There's a good reason DA is only used in competition when it's required. I can just see someone trying to hit the turkeys at 150 meters shooting double action or for that matter the chickens at 50 meters on a silhouette range. Trigger control is extremely important even when you barely have to pull it. Who would shoot at a deer at 75 yards double action when they can shoot single action. If you can shoot better double action than single action I hope your gun is DAO.

DAO came in just as stated above about 20 years ago. I see no advantage in any situation for DA shooting from targets to SD. However with a revolver, I only use revolvers, you're stuck with double action in SD. If self defense is the only reason you shoot then DA is a viable choice but only if you use a revolver due to the fact you can get SA/DA autos. At least I would personally feel better off

[Pizzagunner]

I have plenty enough experience to determine that most of the DAO shooters I have encountered are A) mandated to have it and forced to live with it like it or not, or B) mouth breathers afraid of leaving a safety on, or C) Revolver shooters, where DA is standard and DAO appears mainly in the form of the Centennial, which is actually a cool piece of hardware.

[LaBulldog]

DAO is the same trigger pull every shot, much like a revolver.

[David E]

UKJ: I always get my best results at the range with a single action trigger and if I'm using a wheelgun, I always cock the hammer first to ensure a smooth trigger pull.

Yes, it's easier for the casual shooter to be more accurate with a single action gun. The smart shooter masters DA mechanisms.

If I were to carry, then a DA/SA with an exposed hammer and a decocker would probably be my preferred option.

And you might very well find out that your preferred single action handgun of choice for the RANGE won't cut it for CCW on the street.

Again, I'd like to point out that my question about DAO only refers to full sized, civilian owned, auto pistols - not LE weapons or CCWs - where a strong case for DAO is perfectly viable.

Then didn't you answer your own question?

For strictly shooting guns at the range for fun and pure recreation, it matters very little what the action type is. For CCW or home defense, it matters quite a bit.

The number of self inflicted accidental handgun injuries in the US is astronomical.

No, it's not. In fact, accidental shootings have decreased significantly.

Similarly, I suspect that there are a lot of new shooters who are nervous or have little confidence with firearms. If this is the case, I can understand why they would want a DAO pistol, but I don't believe they should own one (or any firearm) within 5 miles of me.

Ah, but no one cares what you believe! :D

From your posts, you seem to think that your skill with a single action auto is pretty good. I'm curious what gun(s) you're using and calling single action autos and what you think "pretty good" is with a handgun.

.

[David E]

Pizzagunner: I have plenty enough experience to determine that most of the DAO shooters I have encountered are... mouth breathers afraid of leaving a safety on....

I've only had 35 years experience, but I've not noticed this.

Perhaps you could share your experience with us.

For example, is your wife a mouth breather because she's not as excited about guns as you are so isn't comfortable with a cocked and locked 1911?

Is she a mouth breather if she's afraid of forgetting to take the safety off (or missing it under stress) when a 300# knife-wielding rapist is kicking down the bedroom door? And because of this concern, she wants something SIMPLER, but with capacity, that means she's a mouth breather?

.

[GLOOB]

One theory is that most SD scenarios involve 0-1 shots fired... at moving people, not stationary targets.

In this were true, a DA/SA seems to be the exact opposite of ideal. Especially if all you do is practice SA shooting.

If you take your Glock and your Beretta 92 to the range and practice with 50 rounds each, you've practiced the most important shot 50 times with the Glock and maybe 4 times with the Beretta.

[MrBorland]

I apologise if I've taken my own post off topic by linking it with the firearm safety aspects. I'd also like to apologise to MrBorland, I may have interpreted his post in an aggressive way and responded inappropriately.

UKJ - Nothing aggressive or inappropriate in your reply. I got my knickers in a knot a bit myself, so my apologies, too.

I didn't answer the "why DAO" question because I found if you apply the fundamentals, all trigger types and handgun platforms shoot fine. Yes, then, I think it comes down to shooter preference, so the more choices, the better.

[UKJ]

Hi DavidE,

In answer to your many questions / assumptions / opinions -

I agree, a smart shooter should be able to master DA mechanisms. And if I needed to, then I would. But it does seem pointless when I have a much simpler, more accurate option that I've already trained with and mastered.

My preferred pistols at the range have been used for decades by military and police both overtly and covertly - so they would cut it on the street.

I answered my own question with regards to small CCW pistols that you might want to stick in your pocket. Not full sized autos in a holster. For home defense, I'll stick with what I know.

Accidental shootings may have decreased, but not to a level I'm comfortable with. If I infer by your comment that accidental shootings have decreased due to the number of safeties and DAO triggers, then it just proves my point that there are a lot of careless people out there with loaded guns.

And obviously, people may or may not care what I believe. From first hand experience, I have seen people do some idiotic and potentially life threatening things at gun ranges through ignorance or lack of training. I don't consider this a belief but fact. Luckily I have You Tube as evidence to back up my worst fears about ill trained shooters.:neener:

It's hard to answer your last assumption about my skills at the range, I'd like to think that I'm a competent and fairly accurate shooter (but then again, doesn't everone else on this forum think that about themselves?).

Finally, my weapons of choice on the range and in no particular order - Browning Hi-Power, Sig P226, Browning Buck Mark, Colt Government and Commander, CZ 75 and what I can borrow from friends - the occassional Beretta or HK. Not the widest or most exotic choices in handguns, but I supplement this with rifle and shotgun shooting.

Apologies to other board members who've had to sit and read through this lengthy post.

[logical]

Pizza quote:DAO is a firm favorite of the poorly trained and the "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" crowd.

Lots of overlap and lots of badges in those two groups. Face it, most cops shoot way fewer rounds per year than most gun enthusiasts. It is best that their manual of arms is dumbed down.

You can continue to post this every 3 or 4 hours but it will still be drivel. A DAO type weapon like a Sig DAK is a good choice for most any CCW situation. I think you are getting too caught up in the gun magazine mystique of the magical 1911.

[CDW4ME]

I've got 1911 Colts and revolvers that can be cocked, if they hold a small accuracy advantage at the range that's irrelevant to concealed carry; a Ruger 22 with a bull barrel has great accuracy, but lacks stopping power.

I strongly prefer Glocks or Kahr as a carry pistol, Kel-Tec 380 as a back-up (sometimes due to circumstances the 380 may serve as only weapon). If I carry a revolver, it's a S&W 442 that cannot be cocked or a 638 with the shrouded hammer (I would not cock it for self defense, nor do I in practice).

I've carried 1911 variants cocked & locked before and I always felt compelled to lower the hammer when I got home, not real safe; I didn't like leaving the gun fully cocked all the time either.

DAO pistols like the Glock and Kahr offer plenty of accuracy, safety, and piece of mind.

[David E]

I agree, a smart shooter should be able to master DA mechanisms. And if I needed to, then I would.

Since you don't carry a gun, it's possible that you'd have to do a "battlefield pickup" and use the gun on scene, whatever it is, quickly and efficiently.

My preferred pistols at the range have been used for decades by military and police both overtly and covertly - so they would cut it on the street.

But would they cut it.........for you ?

I answered my own question with regards to small CCW pistols that you might want to stick in your pocket. Not full sized autos in a holster.

That's not what you said in post # 16, unless you're referring to backup guns cops carry in their pocket and think that all CCW holders only carry compact pocket guns.

For home defense, I'll stick with what I know.

Always a good idea !

If I infer by your comment that accidental shootings have decreased due to the number of safeties and DAO triggers, then it just proves my point that there are a lot of careless people out there with loaded guns.

And you said _I_ made assumptions?? Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent. Note that from 1975 to 1985+, DAO autos didn't exist to any significant degree in America.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvacci.html

It's hard to answer your last assumption about my skills at the range, I'd like to think that I'm a competent and fairly accurate shooter

I made no such assumption. I merely asked you what you thought your skill level is, as your posts imply that you think you're pretty good. Have you had any formal training ? To establish a minimum skill level do this: using a shot timer, (not a stopwatch!) starting with hands at sides, how fast can you draw (unconcealed) and put 6 rounds on a paper plate at 5 yds?

Finally, my weapons of choice on the range and in no particular order - Browning Hi-Power, Sig P226, Browning Buck Mark, Colt Government and Commander, CZ 75

For CCW or home defense, the gun choices, caliber and mode of carry/readiness become important factors.

Which one of those would you grab first?

In what state of readiness do you keep your Colt? Would you remember to decock your 226 after you shot someone? Would you remember to reapply the safety on your Hi-Power?

For range shooting, any gun of adequate quality will suffice. From your posts, it seems that range shooting is your sole focus here, and that's fine. Have fun.

[AK103K]

Whoever said you concentrate better shooting DA has no idea what they're talking about. I've been punching paper for 35 years. My apologies for being blunt but I am being honest also.
I've got about 10 years on you, and I have a good bit of time with both SA and DA guns. I'm not doubting your experiences, but I also have to ask, how much of it is based on shooting DAO?

SA has its place, and for precision, bullseye type target shooting using light loads, its pretty hard to beat, but for pretty much anything else, DA is the only way to go, but especially if speed is needed (speed being both getting the gun into action and shooting quickly) .

Even for slow fire, precision shooting, DA has a very important place, especially when heavy recoiling guns are involved. What turned me on to DA shooting was a Model 29 .44 mag with a light SA trigger shooting heavy loads. I was having troubles making hits and keeping what I considered reasonable groups at longer ranges until an older friend, who was an ex cop and long time revolver shooter, recommended shooting DA, and for the reasons I previously stated. I was doubtful at first, but with a little practice, my groups soon shrank by close to half and I was hooked. I havent shot a DA revolver (or automatic with the capability) in SA since, and thats been a good 30+ years now.

I've shot quite a few groundhogs at 75-100 yards using a Model 28 and 29 S&W using only the DA trigger. These days, most of my revolvers arent even capable of SA shooting, as I've removed the SA notch and hammer spur on them, as well as smoothed and narrowed the triggers, especially on the guns that came with target triggers.

The biggest advantage here is, you stop being a trigger worrier and become a better overall shooter. You can pick up pretty much anything and have little difficulty shooting well with it. Those who shoot only light, SA triggers usually tend to be very limited in their skills. They may shoot very well with guns and triggers they are accustomed to, but if they have to use anything else, the excuses and complaints usually quickly arise.


If your still in doubt, just watch Jerry Miculek. Hes fast AND accurate and I've yet to see his thumb ever touch the hammer. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qovg0xA4Ao&feature=related

[usp9]

Why DAO only triggers?

I don't insist on a DAO, but I fully understand it's purpose. As one who has both drawn my pistol, had rounds come my way and been drawn on three seperate times by LEOs, I can comfirm that pucker factor has a good bit to do with many agencies adopting a safer, non-single action trigger. Many people are alive today (perhaps me among them), because the number of accidental shootings is lower due to certain trigger qualities. Unfortunately poor discipline and fear override any safety factors occationally.

Consistent excellent accuracy is not hard to accomplish with any of the modern DAO pistols available today. Some folks here have confused sports target shooting with defensive or LE use of a weapon. They are different and require different tools.

Personally I have carried mostly DA/SA pistols in the 34 years I've carried, and have done so primarily as a safety feature to avoid a premature shot in a tense situation. I've tried many of the DAO triggers and I've found them to be just as easy to shoot well as any other carry weapon trigger. Some of them are excellent, such as the Walther QA, the HK LEM, Sphinx, even Kahr makes a good trigger. I can shoot the Walther QA just as well as my HK on SA.

Fear not the DAO.

[Deanimator]

The reason is mostly split between police safety and liability issues.

A LOT of cops shoot as little as possible. That creates an instant conflict between the capacity of a modern semi-auto and the simplicity of a revolver.

While you CAN cock the hammer of the typical revolver, once it's down, it STAYS down, until you cock it again or pull the trigger. A marginally competent cop who shoots an SA or DA/SA auto, ends up with a cocked hammer and a light trigger pull every time he fires. That gives him a lot of opportunity to display poor trigger discipline, either pointing his firearm at a suspect (and YOU could be a suspect without doing ANYTHING) or reholstering. With the DAO, he doesn't have to remember anything but keeping his finger off the trigger and his firearm pointed in a safe direction until it needs to be fired. And some people can't master those concepts either.

The DAO trigger throws additional stumbling blocks between an indifferent shooter and an accident. Of course only rendering the firearm INCAPABLE of firing will prevent a negligent person from having a negligent discharge.

I like the Glock "Safe Action" trigger. I utterly DESPISE every DAO type trigger I've ever tried, and most DA/SAs in DA mode. For the price of a box of Q-Tips and some Flitz, I can get a VERY smooth trigger in a Glock (or S&W M&P). I can do the same in a DAO Beretta or S&W... for a substantial portion of the cost of the gun itself in gunsmithing fees. But I wouldn't waste the money anyway because the reach to the trigger is far too long to be comfortable. I passed on a CZ75B because the reach was way too long, and it's a much better pistol to me than the Beretta OR the S&W.

A more obscure reason, pointed out by writer Massad Ayoob, is the negation of spurious arguments by malicious prosecutors or civil attorneys that someone "accidentally" shot someone that they INTENTIONALLY shot, because their hammer COULD have been cocked. DAO, blows that one out of the water on its face.

Shoot what you like. I like Glocks, SA autos, and conventional SA/SA revolvers.

[UKJ]

My goodness, I've inadvertantly opened a big can of worms with regards to my dislike of DAO triggers.

The original post which contained the words - civilian, full size and auto pistol seems to have been lost somewhat in this thread, but the DA shooters have certainly given me food for thought.

The truth of the matter is that I don't carry, I live in a nice area, don't buy drugs, don't have to carry cash / diamonds / nuclear materials as part of my job and I'm pretty switched on.

My shooting is exclusively recreational, particularly when I can get on my friend's farm and can practice some drills or 'blow stuff up'.

I haven't been in a fist fight for years never mind a gun fight, so I don't spend my time living in fear worrying that I'll be attacked by muggers / crack heads / zombies / etc. - which might be my eventual downfall, but I'll be enjoying life in the meantime.

If I were to find myself going into a situation where a firearm would be required, then I'll take my BHP or P226 with me (depending on clothing factors). For home defense I'll grab my Mossy 590.

I have yet to find myself in a situation where someone throws me a DA pistol and says 'Cover me!' as we're being shot at. If I did, I think trigger pull would be the last thing on my mind - with running away being the first.:)

We could play 'What if...' games all day, but it won't change my dislike of DAO auto pistols.

[AK103K]

The truth of the matter is that I don't carry, I live in a nice area, don't buy drugs, don't have to carry cash / diamonds / nuclear materials as part of my job and I'm pretty switched on.
Other than the "dont carry" part, same here. I do carry every day though, and have for about 30+ years now.

Where you live and when you will need a gun is pretty much an anytime, anywhere thing, and has little to do with anything other than you will need it when you do, no matter where you are, and for any reason you might need it.

I have yet to find myself in a situation where someone throws me a DA pistol and says 'Cover me!' as we're being shot at. If I did, I think trigger pull would be the last thing on my mind - with running away being the first.
Since you dont always have a gun on you, your actually in more of a position of needing the skills involved with shooting DA or DAO, since you may well have to put something to work that your not familiar with, especially if you cant run away.

While we could play "what if" all day, those of use who shoot ALL the different platforms without issue simply say, "whats it matter" or "who cares". Its a non issue for us, anywhere, anytime, any scenario.

Hey, I drive things that use a clutch too, but thats a whole other "what if". Know what I mean Vern? :D

[Deanimator]

The truth of the matter is that I don't carry, I live in a nice area, don't buy drugs, don't have to carry cash / diamonds / nuclear materials as part of my job and I'm pretty switched on.
Tinley Park, Illinois seemed like a "nice area" the times I've been there. That didn't stop a guy from shooting six women in the head, execution style, killing five of them.

I haven't been in a fist fight for years never mind a gun fight, so I don't spend my time living in fear worrying that I'll be attacked by muggers / crack heads / zombies / etc. - which might be my eventual downfall, but I'll be enjoying life in the meantime.
Pretending that somebody won't rob you is as foolish as spending every waking hour obsessing on somebody doing it.

If I were to find myself going into a situation where a firearm would be required, then I'll take my BHP or P226 with me (depending on clothing factors). For home defense I'll grab my Mossy 590.
I'll bet those six women didn't think a firearm would be required when they were in that Lane Bryant store either...

[Guillermo]

DAO pistols were created so as to make all of the trigger pulls the same. After all, a SA (as opposed to a stiker fire) pistol has a long first trigger pull. The rest are short, light and precise.

A gun designer was challenged by a lawyer while doing tequila shooters to make all of the trigger pulls the same. In his drunken haze the designer came up with the only solution..."Let's mess them all up like that crappy 1st one....sure they will suck but they will be freakin indentical!!!" A new catagory of pistols was born...along with a couple of hangovers.

SAO revolvers are a way to remove a potentially clothes snagging appendage. It is not an elegant solution, analagous to removing your little toe to make your pointy toe cowboy boots more comfy.

[chris in va]

We could play 'What if...' games all day, but it won't change my dislike of DAO auto pistols.

That's fine, you have your opinions and the right to say them. However when you post crap like this...

Single Action Auto Pistols came before Double Action Revolvers? Can I borrow your time machine please? :neener:

...we lose all respect for whatever is said. The poster said single action, no mention of auto pistol.

As I pointed out my Kahr has what I like to call a 'light double action'. Same pull every time, reset is quite short compared to a revolver.

[Guillermo]

Chris,

What Kahr do you have?

The polymer Kahrs are the only ones that I am familiar with and they are striker fire, which is not DAO. Sure some people call them such but they are not. Double action is when the trigger "cocks" the action. Striker fire actions are already cocked. This is why many hate Glocks, XD's and Kahr's PM line.

[UKJ]

chris in va,

I think kyo's comment about single action being before double action was meant as a bit of a joke and I responded in kind. It was just a bit of fun IMO, hence the little emoticon sticking his tongue out.

As my initial post was all about Single Action Auto Pistols and not Single Action Revolvers, I thought it was a fair comment to make.

I'm sorry if you saw it as me being disrespectful.

As for the other 'What if...' posts, again anything is possible - from being shot by a psycho to being hit by a stray meteorite. I think something really drastic would have to happen in the neighbourhood before I would consider carrying every day.

[Knightrider03m]

I only got my DAO gun because I don't want the hammer to catch on any part of my shirt, holster, or pants if I have to pull it out on someone.

[David E]

UKJ originally posted this: Why DAO only triggers?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can I ask why some shooters insist on a DAO (or variant thereof) for their full sized auto pistols?

He has since been given a slew of reasons "why." Not one of them tried to convince HIM to not dislike them. No one cares what UKJ likes or dislikes.

UKJ: I always get my best results at the range with a single action trigger and if I'm using a wheelgun, I always cock the hammer first to ensure a smooth trigger pull.

That's because UKJ is merely a casual shooter with minimal skill, which is fine. But many of us have decided to master the various actions out there for fun and other reasons.

Yet, I've found that a great many of "casual/recreational shooters" seem to think that their minimal skill makes them "pretty damn good" with their gun and will have ample skill to draw upon should they ever have to shoot for blood. I hope that turns out to be the case.....

I'd still like to know in what state of readiness UKJ keeps his BHP in, should he have to reach for it FIRST at home, or if he could foretell the future and knew what day he'd need to carry it. I know he won't address the "draw and fire 6 shots on a paper plate" question.

UKJ seems to think that the only reason for carrying a gun is if you buy drugs, carry cash/diamonds/nuclear material.....:rolleyes: And he thinks that folks using DAO's are too nervous and ignorant to own any gun within 5 miles of him and that a safety course should be required before a first gun can be purchased. Then he says he doesn't want to infringe on anyones's right to own one, but he "doesn't want to die, either," placing his aberrant fear ahead of anyone's right to own a gun.

This guy is on OUR side ? :what:

[MCgunner]

DAO is a firm favorite of the poorly trained and the "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" crowd.

Ever been to a PPC match? Wanna try taking on Jerry Miculek with your 1911? Jerry would likely clean your clock with a Smith 686. That's where my money would be, anyway.

Personally, I like DA guns because I so often carry a revolver. I won't own ANYthing, but true DAO (not Glock safe action) in a pocket gun, but I do prefer a decocker DA for a service size gun. I have a KP90DC Ruger I love and the Sig decockers are fantastic. That's my preference in bigger guns. I don't consider Glocks to be DAO, that's "safe action", an oxymoron IMHO, but there you go, JMHO.

I really prefer my guns to fire DA at least on the first round out of the gun, though. Makes swapping the revolver for the auto much easier. A 1911 needs to be your only carry 24/7 and you need to own only 1911s for serious duty and practice only with them if you're going to carry a single action, again, JMHO. I love my revolvers too much to restrict my gun collection and DA shooting is quite natural for me and I'm quite accurate at up to 25 or 30 yards DA so long as it's a smooth DA trigger. I've beaten a lot of the "good shooters" with their 1911s using my lowly Kel Tec P11 in a couple of IDPA shoots just for the grins of it. When I shot my Rugers in IDPA, I was shooting expert level and beat up on a lot of lesser shooters with their 1911s. So, I think this statement is a bit off the mark. I don't actually like gum, but I can shoot a handgun pretty well.

As to why I carry 24/7 in a small town with little crime? I just don't wanna have to say "if I'd only had my gun", someday. I have used a gun once for defense, didn't have to shoot, ran the guy off. Hey, it happens. What good is knowing how to shoot anything if you don't have it with you when you need it?

[David E]

The polymer Kahrs are the only ones that I am familiar with and they are striker fire, which is not DAO. Sure some people call them such but they are not. Double action is when the trigger "cocks" the action. Striker fire actions are already cocked.

Not true.

A DA cocks AND releases the hammer/striker.

Kahr's and Glock have a partially cocked striker. Pulling the trigger completes the striker's rearward travel before releasing it.

This is why many hate Glocks, XD's and Kahr's PM line.

People hate these guns for many other reasons besides the striker action.

[UKJ]

Oh David E, you won't let this lie will you?

The fact that I'm not overly keen on shooting people dead at the first opportunity seems to somehow disgust you.

You also seem offended that I value my life so highly, that I don't want ignorant or dangerous people firing guns near me.

And then you infer that I'm not on the side of legal, sane gun owners by daring to suggest that first time gun owners attend a mandatory safety course.

Unlike in the police or military, where they give 'em a rifle, let them drink a fifth of JD and tell 'em to just shoot up some cans in the backyard. No wait, they make everybody take a mandatory safety course - what a bunch of anti-gun Nazi Commies.

We obviously differ in our opinions and that's cool, the world would be boring if we agreed on everything. Anyway, this 'casual' shooter is going to head out and have a bit of 'casual' fun.

Have a good weekend.

[MCgunner]

Quote:
This is why many hate Glocks, XD's and Kahr's PM line.



People hate these guns for many other reasons besides the striker action.

Hate is a strong word. The "safe action" has a short, light trigger. I find it totally undesirable to carry such a gun. The Springfield XDs have a good idea, adding a grip safety. If I carried such a gun, I'd look at an XD.

[David E]

UKJ:

And then you infer that I'm not on the side of legal, sane gun owners by daring to suggest that first time gun owners attend a mandatory safety course.

I did not mean to infer anything.

If you are for mandatory safety courses for first time gun owners, then you are NOT on the side of lawful gunowners.

I hope that clears it up for you.

.

[Guillermo]

Pulling the trigger completes the striker's rearward travel before releasing it.

The bottom line is that a striker fire is not DAO. A DAO is a gun that pulling the trigger works the action. With a Kahr, Glock, etc that is not what is happening. To call a striker fire gun a DAO is like calling a cocked and locked 1911 DAO. A true DAO would be like a Smith Model 59. The hammer is pulled back by pulling the trigger.

Come on...this is The High Road...we are supposed to be more informed than the average person.

[Mike J]

UKJ- There are so many things that have come up in this thread I'm not gonna adress all of them. As far as someone prefering DAO, SA/DA, DA/SA, Single Action, Safe Action, or USA(Universal Safe Action) triggers it doesn't matter they all work. Everyone has different preferences and different reasons for those preferences. I recently bought a compact DAO semiauto. Today was the first time I got to shoot it. The trigger was very looong & hard but after putting about 70 rounds through it my Ruger P-944 & XD-40(DA/SA & USA action) pistols felt like they had target triggers. My groups were smaller. I believe the more I shoot that little P-11 the better I will shoot my full size pistols. My goal is to become a more proficient shooter-partly because I want to be able to protect my family & myself-partly because I enjoy the challenge of improving my marksmanship. Shooting DAO improves marksmanship skills with any platform you choose to shoot.
As far as the mandantory safety training for first time firearm owners there is a reason many here do not like the concept. The thing is sensible & intelligent as this idea sounds it could be used to prevent firearm ownership. Who would decide what level of training is necessary? Who would decide how much said training should cost? I would think these decisions would be made by the government (politicians). This would be a way an unscrupulous politician with an anti gun agenda could deter future gun owners by making the training so time consuming & expensive that the average working stiff just wouldn't have the time or funds to pursue it. Sometimes when I think I have really good ideas or opinions it pays to bounce them off others & listen with an open mind to their feedback. There are often things I don't know or other aspects I may not have thought of.

[REAPER4206969]

The bottom line is that a striker fire is not DAO. A DAO is a gun that pulling the trigger works the action. With a Kahr, Glock, etc that is not what is happening. To call a striker fire gun a DAO is like calling a cocked and locked 1911 DAO. A true DAO would be like a Smith Model 59. The hammer is pulled back by pulling the trigger.

Come on...this is The High Road...we are supposed to be more informed than the average person.

The Glock is a true double action. When you press the trigger to the rear the striker is being drawn to the full cock position and released. That is double action.


From Glock's website:
TRIGGER SYSTEM
The “Safe Action” system is a partly tensioned firing pin lock, which is moved further back by the trigger bar when the trigger is pulled.
When the trigger is pulled, 3 safety features are automatically deactivated one after another. When doing so, the trigger bar is deflected downward by the connector and the firing pin is released under full load. When the trigger is released, all three safety features re-engage and the GLOCK pistol is automatically secured again.

[Deanimator]

The Glock is a true double action. When you press the trigger to the rear the striker is being drawn to the full cock position and released. That is double action.
No, it's not. When you cycle the slide, the striker is "pre-cocked". Pulling the trigger retracts the striker the rest of the way and releases it. If the gun fails to fire, you CANNOT pull the trigger again without cycling the slide. In a real DA gun like a Beretta 92 or 92D, you can just pull the trigger again to cause the hammer to restrike the firing pin and in turn, the primer.

[Glockman17366]

My carry gun, a Taurus 851, has a shrouded hammer. Theoretically, this gun can be cocked for SA, but it's a bitch to do so.
The reason I bought this gun was for the easier draw from a pocket holster. No chance of the hammer spur snagging. Easier on the clothing too, BTW.
My other CCW(s) are Glocks. I like these mostly due to the toughness of the gun and ease of take down for cleaning.

I don't care for safties on a carry gun, so SA, such as a 1911, aren't on my list for carry. I like the caliber, and I do own a 1911 (Colt series 80 parkerized)...just don't care to carry one.

[David E]

As I previously stated, the Glock and Kahr have a partially cocked striker. Pulling the trigger completes the rearward travel before releasing it.

Does this make it a true double action? No. This is why Gaston Glock came up with the "Safe Action" moniker to describe a unique action type.

To say the Glock is a DAO just just as much as a 1911 is a DAO flaunts one's ignorance about how a Glock actually works.

Evenso, these are mere nits that are being picked.

There are advantages to DAO/Safe Action/TDA that are not shared with SA autos like the 1911 and vice versa. As long as you pick one you can shoot well at speed and have confidence in, then it's a good fit for you.

[jad0110]

True, I might have given up a bit too easily and thought to myself 'to hell with this, why am I shooting this antiquated weapon system, it's not as good' or words to that effect. It seemed pointless (in my opinion) to actually make a conscious decision to go 'backwards' in terms of weapon technology, capacity and ease of use.


You would not be the only one who has given up early on DA shooting, so don't sweat it. Many, upon firing a few DA shots with a revolver throw up their hands and say "it can't be done!" and go back to SA shooting.

I used to be one of those types, but when I heard the "it can't be done" line, I got kinda irked and took it as a challenge! :neener:

Actually, as others have indicated it really wasn't all that difficult. After only about 300-500 rounds fired DA, I could shoot DA about as well as SA. Building up finger strength was definitely part of it. After 1000 more, I could shoot DA better than SA. What I have found is that DA shooting acts as a sort of counterbalance, if that is the right way of saying, giving greater control/precision. Assuming the DA pull is decent.

That's the other thing, just because a SA trigger pull is light doesn't automatically make it smooth. What a light SA trigger does do is mask problems like roughness better to the inexperienced shooter. If you want to experience a velvety smooth trigger, try out a pre-war Colt, or long-action S&W revolver. The actions on those guns are slick enough to bring tears to a grown man's eyes.

As for the 2nd half of your statement, well, I do better shooting DA S&Ws than any other handgun platform (1911s, oddly, come a very close 2nd), so for me they are most certainly not antiquated. As they say: software, not hardware.

In the end, we all have our preferences. If your's is SA, there is nothing wrong with that. Though it would be wise to at a minimum build your skills with DA weapons to round out your skills.

[REAPER4206969]

No, it's not. When you cycle the slide, the striker is "pre-cocked". Pulling the trigger retracts the striker the rest of the way and releases it. If the gun fails to fire, you CANNOT pull the trigger again without cycling the slide. In a real DA gun like a Beretta 92 or 92D, you can just pull the trigger again to cause the hammer to restrike the firing pin and in turn, the primer.

Second strike capability has nothing to with determining the action of a pistol. Double action means that when the trigger is pulled fully to the rear TWO (2) actions are taking place, drawing the hammer/striker back, and releasing it firing the weapon. Do you not consider a Kel-Tec PF-9, P3AT, Ruger LCP and PARA Ordanance LDA (Light Double Action.) Etc. double action?

[UKJ]

To Mike J,

Thank you very much for your thoughtful and considered reply. In between all the hulabaloo, I did conceed that trigger types were down to personal preference but it was lost in the other debates and trying to defend my own personal point of view.

Again, I totally understand that by bringing in a mandatory saftey course, it could be hi-jacked by politicians who would use it to limit access to firearms. I'm hoping that would not be the case and that it would be similar to the procedure you go through to attain a CCW License.

It wouldn't have to be a lengthy or expensive course, maybe a couple of hours at a range with a qualified instructor. Afterwards, you get a certificate and a few perks like with a CCW - no waiting period on handguns, etc. It could also look good court-wise if you did have to defend yourself with a firearm.

Anyway, back to the DAO debate - the overriding consensus on the forum when it comes to grip size, recoil, caliber, etc. is always 'use what works best for you' - so for the present, I'll stick with that good advice.

Quick Edit: jad0110, I will follow your advice and give it another try. I think the only way I'm going to overcome this 'block' I have is to save up and buy myself a revolver. At least then, I'll have a new toy which I've invested money into, so that should be enough to make me want to shoot it. So, if all goes to plan, I should have a DA gun in six months time. I will let you know how I get on.

[Deanimator]

Second strike capability has nothing to with determining the action of a pistol.
In this case, it has EVERYTHING to do with it.

A DA mechanism COCKS AND FIRES the gun. There's no "pre-cocking". When you pull the trigger, the hammer or striker is retracted and released to fire a chambered round, PERIOD. If intermediate steps are required to fire a chambered round, it's NOT DA, much less DAO.

[WC145]

Wow, kind of an ugly thread considering the subject. I am a LEO, and while the original post excluded me based on that, since I choose to carry DAO/long smooth trigger pull (for the picky out there) guns both on and off duty I thought I'd chime in. My choice is simple, the guns that I carry all function basically the same way with similar feeling triggers and no safeties. So, whether I'm working and draw my Beretta 8000D or I'm not and I'm wearing my Kahr CW9 or I need my j frame BUG or grab my AMT Backup out of the console or I borrow my wife's Taurus 905, they all function the same way. I don't have to think about one operating differently than another, one having a very light trigger pull or needing to be decocked before reholstering, etc, etc.
IMO, simple is better, faster, safer, and nothing is simpler than than just having to pull the trigger.

BTW, I can walk and chew gum, have my own backyard range, and shoot several times a month in addition to required training and qualifying. Perhaps some of you shouldn't make such broad assumptions based on preferred actions or whether or not someone wears a badge.

[Guillermo]

This is a nice explanation of the difference between single action, double action and "safe action".

http://members.cox.net/guntraining/glocks.htm

[REAPER4206969]

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/images/big/pf9firingmotion.gif
Kel-Tec PF-9


A DA mechanism COCKS AND FIRES the gun.
That is what Glock’s “Safe-Action.” does!


There's no "pre-cocking". When you pull the trigger, the hammer or striker is retracted and released to fire a chambered round, PERIOD. If intermediate steps are required to fire a chambered round, it's NOT DA, much less DAO.
So ALL of those pre-set double action only pistols are not double action to you?
:scrutiny:

[Deanimator]

So ALL of those pre-set double action only pistols are not double action to you?
If you can't just pull the trigger as many times as you want to hit the same primer as many times as you want, without cycling the action, it's not DA.

[7mmSTW]

There are so many different trigger mechanisms labeled under "DAO" it's impossible to try and classify them as one. Traditional DAO on a semi auto pistol is outdated to me. New "DAO's" such as HK's LEM etc... are much more controllable and can be made as light with as short of reset as many SA's with the added benefeit of no external safeties to jockey with. As far as DAO revolvers I feel once you learn to properly manipulate the trigger and build strenth in your fingers they can be put to use very effectively. Learning this trigger discipline will only help a shooter, including the die hard SA guy. I got away with alot of bad habits for a long time using good triggers. I would probably have lived in bliss for years had I not learned DA triggers and their manipulation. Learning good trigger discipline has taken me to another level altogether.

[REAPER4206969]

So I and all the manufactures of Pre-set double action only pistols as well as the worthless BATFE are wrong?

[rscalzo]

Lots of overlap and lots of badges in those first two groups

Maybe you would like to describe your experiences on the street and the incidents you have been involved with to all of us. I'm always amazed that those never there always are first to comment.

[MCgunner]

My P11 has a true DAO with "second strike" capability. The PF9 and P3AT are more Glock like, though they use a hammer and have a longer trigger throw. I don't think of Glocks as DAO because they're so light and have such short travel, they're more like a creepy single action with no safety. That's why I call 'em "safe action" to delineate them from a decent DAO trigger that you're less likely to Plaxeco yourself with.

[Erik]

"So I and all the manufactures of Pre-set double action only pistols as well as the worthless BATFE are wrong?"

Yes. The topic has been relatively well covered over the years.

However, since the OP is using the layman's definitions (used by the marketers which have found themselves into the law in places) that's what we have been discussing.

Note: Double Action Only only allow... double action. It is as simple as that, actually. Glock's SA, HK's LEM and SIg's DAK allow for more than that; Glock's SA have two trigger pulls, HK and Sig three. I'm sure others can cite other actions designed along similar lines.

But... That seems certainly beyond this particular thread given some of the responses.

[REAPER4206969]

It does not matter what the trigger “Feels” like. All that matters is the mechanical actions taking place. In the Glock and other pistols I listed when the trigger is pulled to the rear the hammer/striker is being cocked and released. That is two (2) actions. That is Double Action.

[REAPER4206969]

I don't think of Glocks as DAO because they're so light and have such short travel, they're more like a creepy single action with no safety.

Try a Glock without the help of the coil trigger spring and you will feel that there is no appreciable difference between it and a double action only revolver.
http://glockparts.com/store/image/ghaj/Trigger_Springs_NY2_Trigger_Spring.jpg

That's why I call 'em "safe action" to delineate them from a decent DAO trigger that you're less likely to Plaxeco yourself with.
Keep your finger off the trigger and you will not have that problem with any firearm.

[JohnBT]

"when the trigger is pulled to the rear the hammer/striker is being cocked and released. That is two (2) actions. That is Double Action."

But it only does that if the slide has been cycled or partially cycled to pre-cock the striker. A small difference, but a significant one under certain circumstances.

If the primer doesn't go off you CAN'T simply pull the trigger again to cock and release the striker/firing pin. You pull the trigger the second time you get nothing.

OTOH, my Rohrbaugh will cock and release the hammer every time I pull the trigger. Doesn't matter if it's empty, a dud hard primer, whatever. The trigger does ALL OF the work on every trigger stroke.

John

[Deanimator]

So I and all the manufactures of Pre-set double action only pistols as well as the worthless BATFE are wrong?
Technical accuracy and bureaucratic intellectual laziness are not the same thing, not as though the BATFE knows it, or even cares. The Glock was labeled "double action" because somebody didn't feel like coming up with a new category.

[REAPER4206969]

What about the manufactures? Why does Kel-Tec call their PF-9, P3AT and P32 “Double action only”? What about Para ordnance with their “Light Double Action.”? Ruger with their LCP?
:scrutiny:

[Deanimator]

What about the manufactures? Why does Kel-Tec call their PF-9, P3AT and P32 “Double action only”? What about Para ordnance with their “Light Double Action.”? Ruger with their LCP?
Tyson can call a chicken a pterodactyl. It doesn't make it so.

[Erik]

"What about the manufactures?"

Their marketing departments are more concerned about earned revenue than the accuracy of terminology.

[Guillermo]

Tyson can call a chicken a pterodactyl. It doesn't make it so

That is true but it sure would be a cool name.

[Deanimator]

Tyson can call a chicken a pterodactyl. It doesn't make it so
That is true but it sure would be a cool name.
And it really WOULD taste like chicken!

[AK103K]

...I have is to save up and buy myself a revolver.
Buy yourself a nice S&W 617 in .22. It feels like the full size K frame it is, is accurate, and you can shoot it all day long for pennies. Just never touch the hammer with your thumb. :)

[jad0110]

I am with Deaminator on the naming issue, relying on the strict technical definition of SA and DA. If the hammer or firing pin does not cock/retract and release with each pull of the trigger, then it is not a true DA. If we want to get really technical, a DA revolver is really a triple action, as squeezing the trigger cocks the hammer, turns the cylinder, then releases the hammer.

Technical accuracy and bureaucratic intellectual laziness are not the same thing, not as though the BATFE knows it, or even cares. The Glock was labeled "double action" because somebody didn't feel like coming up with a new category.

True. Glock calls it "Safe Action", but that gives no clue as to the actual mechanical operation. I guess calling it "Partial DA" doesn't have much of a ring to it. Maybe someone can come up with something better.

Buy yourself a nice S&W 617 in .22. It feels like the full size K frame it is, is accurate, and you can shoot it all day long for pennies. Just never touch the hammer with your thumb.

Either that or an older S&W Model 17 or 18 in 22 LR. They are pricey though ($500 and up these days). Then again, used H&R DA revolvers can be found for $150 or less, and though not as sweet as a S&W they are an excellent value.

[REAPER4206969]

If the hammer or firing pin does not cock/retract and release with each pull of the trigger, then it is not a true DA.
What do you think a Glock does?:banghead:

[David E]

Their point is, if the gun is EMPTY or the round doesn't fire, pulling the trigger again won't do anything. (regardless of the constant 'clicking' noises you hear wiht an empty Glock in the movies)

This nit has been picked to death, I think.

[pps]

I have indeed fired pistols in a double action capacity, though mainly revolvers and the intial groupings were no where near as good as with SA auto pistols.

True, I might have given up a bit too easily and thought to myself 'to hell with this, why am I shooting this antiquated weapon system, it's not as good' or words to that effect. It seemed pointless (in my opinion) to actually make a conscious decision to go 'backwards' in terms of weapon technology, capacity and ease of use.


I don't consider classic to equate to antiquated in terms of accuracy. I do all my revolver shooting in double action...granted, for longer shots (greater than 25 yards) I stage the trigger.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l96/pps_2006/target.jpg

off hand at 15 yards, I pushed that eighth shot, but that wasn't the guns fault.

Give the double action revolver another chance, be patient, obtain and maintain sight alignment and FOCUS on the front sight while maintaining alignment. Don't just acknowledge the front sight is there, don't just glance at it in passing, but FOCUS hard on that front sight all the way through breaking the shot.

I miss my old 1911 I sold in the late 1980's for it's sweet SA pull, but I won't trade my revolvers for anything.

[Deanimator]

If the hammer or firing pin does not cock/retract and release with each pull of the trigger, then it is not a true DA.
What do you think a Glock does?
IF the striker has been "pre-cocked", it retracts it the rest of the way, then releases it.

What do you think a Glock does if the striker ISN'T "pre-cocked"? It's really easy to find out. Clear one, close the slide and pull the trigger. What happens when you try to pull the trigger AGAIN...?

[REAPER4206969]

Their point is, if the gun is EMPTY or the round doesn't fire, pulling the trigger again won't do anything. (regardless of the constant 'clicking' noises you hear wiht an empty Glock in the movies)


That does NOT matter. Second strike capability has nothing to do with determining whether or not a pistols firing mechanism is double action. Double action is defined as when the trigger is pulled to the rear two (2) firing actions are taking place, cocking the hammer/striker and releasing it firing the weapon. It does not matter if it is a “Traditional” double action only like a Beretta 92D or a “Pre-set” double action only like a Glock. Double action is double action. There is a reason why when the Military wrote procurement contracts they specified that they want second strike capability even when they already specified double action. That is because not all pistols featuring double action firing mechanisms possess
a second strike feature.

[Deanimator]

That does NOT matter. Second strike capability has nothing to do with determining whether or not a pistols firing mechanism is double action.
That's like saying, "The number of feet has nothing to do with determining whether an animal is a quadruped."

"Second strike" capability is INHERENT in a double action firearm.

[usp9]

"Second strike" capability is INHERENT in a double action firearm.


I concur. DAO by definition means the trigger is the only way to cock the hammer and fire the pistol and will do so over and over again, and that the cycling action in no way suppliments cocking the hammer.


One problem we have is that we have more exotic action types than we have universally accepted names. Add to that the striker Versus hammer systems and we are a few terms short of being able to communicate with each other. It will come in time. Where's Mr Webster when we need him?

[JohnBT]

"That does NOT matter. Second strike capability has nothing to do with determining whether or not a pistols firing mechanism is double action. Double action is defined as when the trigger is pulled to the rear two (2) firing actions are taking place, cocking the hammer/striker and releasing it firing the weapon."

"cocking the hammer/striker "

That's what we keep saying. It's the essence of the DA definition. Pulling the trigger on a Glock does not cock the striker unless it has been pre-cocked by cycling or partially cycling the slide.

It's not a deal breaker and it's not worth getting worked up over. This is just a discussion of facts about guns, not an attack on your manhood. :)

If we can't split hairs sitting around talking about guns, well, there wouldn't be much need for a gun forum.

John

[Guillermo]

Second strike" capability is INHERENT in a double action firearm.

That is the very definition thereof

[REAPER4206969]

That is the very definition thereof


The definition of double action is “When the trigger is pressed fully to the rear two (2) primary firing actions are taking place, cocking of the hammer/striker and releasing it.“ it does not matter HOW the firing mechanism achieves this task, all that matters is that it does.


I believe the problem you Gentlemen are having is that you refuse to accept that there are varies categories of double action only. There is the “Traditional” double action only such as the Beretta 92D, SIG DAK, HK LEM, revolvers, Etc. that you Gentlemen are arguing for, and Pre-set double action only like the Glock, S&W M&P, Kel-Tec PF-9, P3AT, P32, Para LDA, Etc. while they may have functional differences they share the fundamental principals of double action. It is much akin to rifles and shotguns. While they are very different, they are both categorized under the category of “Long arm.” because they share fundamental characteristics such as two hand operation, fired from the shoulder, Etc. So in closing, we must accept that no matter how different they may seem to the casual user, if they share the defining principals of function they fall under the wide reaching category of “Double Action.” I am sure that both of these types of double action only pistols and revolvers do, or will live side by side in peace in the comfort of all our safes.

:)

[JohnBT]

"There is the “Traditional” double action"

There you go. You got it. :) Double action. Period.

If it's pre-set it's not double action, something else took care of part of the double action. Even wikipedia says so, as much as I dislike wikipedia. Call it pre-set DA, modified DA, safe action DA, whatever, it's not as simple as saying it's DA.

"So in closing, we must accept"

No, we don't. Sorry. The devil is in the details. Words have meaning, etc.

John

[pps]

I'm amazed to see people so caught up in esoteric semantics.

[Deanimator]

I'm amazed to see people so caught up in esoteric semantics.
As a famous oxycodone addict once said, "Words mean things."

If people are going to say things, they should say factually accurate, meaningful things. If you don't care if what you're saying is true, join the BATFE or get elected to Congress.

[REAPER4206969]

"Words mean things."


Yes they do. When you press a Glock’s trigger from its center fully to the rear, how many Primary firing actions are taking place?

[David E]

This is a far less important debate than calling chambers "cylinders"

Going back to the OP's intent, DAO solves a good many problems that SA creates.

[JohnBT]

"As a famous oxycodone addict once said, "Words mean things.""

You know, I vaguely remember taking a vast horde of hydrocodone for 3 months before and after a back surgery I had in 2003. As best I remember, after working my way up to 16 pills a day words had all sorts of meanings and they shifted around constantly. Even 2.5 days in the hospital on a morphine drip didn't mess me up as badly. How much did I hate the pills? I quit cold turkey 4 weeks after surgery. Five years later and I've never taken another one; and I still have most of a bottle of 70. I suppose I should flush them.


"When you press a Glock’s trigger from its center fully to the rear, how many Primary firing actions are taking place?"

If the striker isn't pre-loaded, nothing will happen. Zip. Nada.

John

[golden]

I have DOUBLE ACTION ONLY triggers on a number of guns.

I started using it on revolvers as a safety and legal defense issue.

When my agency adopted its first semi-auto pistol, it was the BERETTA 96D. It suprised me with how well it shot. I could actually hit a target at 100 yards. For me that was enough proof that the complaints about DAO were unjustified. I have shot high scores with DAO pistols, just as I did with the GLOCK and SIG. It is the quality of the trigger that matters, not the type.

As for the need, just go through an academy with some non shooters. It can be terrifying! We need all the protection from our fellow employees we can get at times.
Arguments that this is a training issue are not realistic in my opinion.

Jim

[David E]

Arguments that this is a training issue are not realistic in my opinion.

I see it as a training issue from both sides.

The OP 'tried' DA shooting then after maybe 10's of rounds, he declared it an unviable platform.

Training here is the key.

On the other hand, the OP and others stated that only the UNTRAINED benefit from DA guns, overlooking the fact that SA (for serious purposes) requires a high level of dedication and training, to be safe.

For pure recreational shooting, none of this matters very much at all, because if you miss the soda can, no one cares.

[REAPER4206969]

then after maybe 10's of rounds, he declared it an unviable platform.
LOL!:D

[7mmSTW]

my brain hurts...

[TestPilot]

Second strike capability has nothing to do with DAO.
If you're confused about Glock, then think about S&W 3rd Generation DAO. Para Ordnance's LDA also do not have scond strike capability.

[TestPilot]

To answer the original question, it's quite complex. Keep in mind that there are many different type of DAO trigger.

My preference is a P226R with DAK. The reson is that I wanted a SIG with a DA first shot that does not require 10~12 pound pressure to pull. If there was only the old SIG DAO with 10~12 pound trigger with all trigger pull, I would not have gone DAO. I would have just stuck with DA/SA.

I don't want manual firing inhibitor on my pistols, so I have to use some sort of DA pistol. But, I don't want the 12 pound trigger pull. So, my only viable option is to go with modern DAO with medium pressure triggers. SIG DAK, Glock Safe Action Trigger, HK LEM just happens to be just that.

[tekarra]

Yes, there are a numb er of different types of DAO trigger mechanisms. One can argue semantics forever, but to me a semi-auto DAO trigger is like a DA revolver trigger; one can pull the trigger consecutive times to have the firing pin strike the primer. Perhaps this type of DAO should be termed a revolver action.

[Deanimator]

Second strike capability has nothing to do with DAO.
You can't have DA, much less DAO WITHOUT second strike capability. If it takes ANY action beyond pulling the trigger to fire a chambered round, it's NOT DA.

[REAPER4206969]

You can't have DA, much less DAO WITHOUT second strike capability


Incorrect.

[Deanimator]

You can't have DA, much less DAO WITHOUT second strike capability

Incorrect.
Saying it doesn't make it so. You clearly don't understand the meaning of the term.

[REAPER4206969]

It is YOU that does not grasp the concept of double action.

[geronimo509]

My DAO Kahr MK9 does NOT have second strike capability!

[Deanimator]

It is YOU that does not grasp the concept of double action.
Saying it doesn't make it so.

[Deanimator]

My DAO Kahr MK9 does NOT have second strike capability!
Then it's not DA, nevermind DAO.