Is it Possible to go Backwards?

First, I am not a gun snob. I like em' all. But I recently bought a Les Baer .45, and things just haven't been the same. Everytime I shoot this gun, I just get better and better. The ease at which I can shoot this pistol well is like nothing else; the accuracy of this pistol is just nuts.

Now I 'm not really interested in buying anything else. I don't expect very many folks to get the jist of this thread, I know if I didn't own Baer, or Wilson, or Nighthawk, I'd be thinking, "Yea, another one of those gun snobs". But nothing tickles my fancy lately. Hopefully, it'll pass:cool:

So how do you go backwards? (Please don't tell me to get another LB).

So how do you go backwards? (Please don't tell me to get another LB).

Wish I had some sage words of advice, but I don't. Since I started buying "quality" guns, I have NOT been able to go back. On the bright side, it takes much longer to save up for your next gun.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3569/3305088230_28858b1026.jpg?v=0

Started with "wondernines". More bullets = better...

Then I started getting training and going to IDPA events, realized that quality beats quantity. Started owning & shooting M1911s.

Never looked back. Plastic? -That's sooooo 1990's!

I've restricted my battery to certain brands. Or to be more precise, I've banned certain brands. I'd sell my own blood before I'd trade down in quality firearms.

Never looked back. Plastic? -That's sooooo 1990's You got right. No plastic in my safe.

I've sold some "cheap" guns in order to get "quality" ones. I am not at Les Baer level yet, but will probalby get there someday. I now preffer metal over plastic and pick top/elite versions of certain lines. Although I still enjoy some of the bargain models I have, my future purchases will be upper end.

So how do you go backwards?
Answer: YOU DON'T. YOU CAN'T.

2nd 41: "Answer: YOU DON'T. YOU CAN'T."

Yeah, guns are sort of like cars that way. I'm a Benz man, and my primary vehicle is getting pretty tired. This past winter was tough on the old girl. She's never been all that practical all-season up here, and there's little dealer or parts support. Nevertheless, my next car will be another Benz --because there's no other car like it in the world. Guns are no different. Especially handguns. They're personal items, like pens or watches. Cheapening your handguns is just not done. It would be like dumping Marissa Tomei for Rosie O'Donnell.

Hey, never owned a "Baer, or Wilson, or Nighthawk" but you can't argue with happiness and results ... mo' accurate = mo' better! :cool:

Why would you want to go back?

You could make it even worse and pick up a *really* nice 1911 from the boys at Heirloom Precision. ;->


-Matt

Answer: YOU DON'T. YOU CAN'T. Sure you can. I made USPSA GM with a Baer PII that had some additional work. I also carried the pistol for several years when I went to another division. I sold the gun to a newcomer in USPSA (IPSC) and started packing a Glock. Lighter weight, no controls, higher capacity. Now I can't imagine going back to a Baer, Wilson, Ed Brown, etc. for anything other than a range gun.

I sold the gun to a newcomer in USPSA (IPSC) and started packing a Glock. Lighter weight, no controls, higher capacity.

So at least you do admit that going to a Glock is going backwards..:neener:

So at least you do admit that going to a Glock is going backwards..

Wish I'd thought of that!

Different priorities.

Some regard guns as "art you can shoot," while others just regard them as tools to get the job done.

There is beauty and progress in function.

Ooh, cocobolo grips. Oh how I love that wood. Quality guns are addictive.

I know the fit and function of Les Baers are great and all, but aren't the frames cast by Caspian? Don't know if I could settle for cast, no matter how great the fit or looks of the gun.....

Not backwaqrd at all, but you ARE close to Clark's.

That'd make a fine pair.

salty

Although this might seem ignorant, the following is probably how a majority of people think. A expert shooter who tacks nails with a high end or customized gun is going to be viewed by others, as the gun not the individual, being the main cause for this fine accuracy ability. Even if it's clearly not the case.

On the other hand, if a expert shooter uses a stock Glock model, and tacks nails with it, then he himself not the gun is praised for his fine accuracy skills.

Just an opinion from a guy who envies all those who can afford high class firearms, and how somehow they always seem to outperform the lower end of the spectrum.

There is no going back. Since picking up my first STI (Eagle 6.0) I was hooked. I now shoot an STI Edge in league competition and wouldn't consider going to a mass production 1911. I've shot Berettas, Kimbers, Colts, Springfields, and Glocks and they are quality weapons, but now I'm spoiled. But what it really comes down to is personal choice and what feels good to you and meets your needs.

So at least you do admit that going to a Glock is going backwards.. Sure, backwards in price, beauty, coolness... Not backwards at all as far as functionality...in fact maybe even a step forward. The question was about going "backwards" and it's pretty easy to do once you determine your priorities. Mine is weight, capacity, etc. If I didn't mind a heavy carry gun (yeah I know guns are supposed to comforting not comfortable) with much lower capacity, I would pack a custom made 1911.

If I wanted a "range gun", work of art, highly shootable, single stack to rock and roll with it would be a Wilson/Baer/Rock River/Ed Brown...

Yeah, guns are sort of like cars that way. I'm a Benz man, and my primary vehicle is getting pretty tired. This past winter was tough on the old girl. She's never been all that practical all-season up here, and there's little dealer or parts support. Nevertheless, my next car will be another Benz --because there's no other car like it in the world. Guns are no different. Especially handguns. They're personal items, like pens or watches. Cheapening your handguns is just not done.

I just don't get it.

We put value on certain cars or guns based upon what? Is it how expensive they are or how accurate they are? Punching holes in targets makes one look good at the gun range, but is that Les Baer something you wear on your side when you stop at the conveinence store late at night?

In this case, what are "the finer things in life" based upon?

Are Mercedes cars really better than a Toyota or a Honda? If so, how? More expensive, more reliable, better resale value? Or is it because their ads say they are? How would you tell someone who drives Hondas that a Mercedes is a better car?

I'm not questioning anybody's values, I'm really at a loss here!

To me, guns are the same way as cars. Once I finally found a reliable handgun I could bet my life upon, I didn't care about anything else. I will carry a Smith & Wesson, Glock, Sig, H&K on my side anyday because I know that it will work, even if it's considered a "blue collar" weapon. As long as I carry and use those guns, I have no need of a gunsmith!

I have no use for high end safe queens. If it's going to be in my safe, I'm going to carry it and bet my life on it. I don't care if it gets dropped in a mud hole or scratched, as long as it works and I can hit what I'm aiming at within 25 yards or so.

Just somebody explain to me how that beautiful Les Baer is a better weapon under real world gunfight conditions than my Glock. I'd really like to know!

I use to think that the hype around high end cars was just that hype. Then I stated working for a German car company and got to drive their products for many years. When I married my wonderful wife she had "the other" German car that we drove for several years.

Yes, high end cars are superior to Honda's and Toyota's. People may not like that idea, but the fit, finish, and overall quality are heads and shoulders above others. Now, when I retired from that German company I could have continued to drive the car, but I did not want to have to pay for that privilege. I prefer to drive my Jeep.

I can afford high-end 1911's but have never really wanted to pay the freight to do so. Did have a Wilson Classic for several years, but found my Colts meet my needs just like the Jeep does. The fact is I feel my Colts are of a very high quality level. And for that I do pay a little more. For pure function my Norinco works as well as my Colts

If someone wants a high-end anything that is their choice, In quite a few cases they are better.

To each his own.

I think it's wonderful that technology in arms manuacturing has progressed to its current state.

Just some 30 years ago (and I say this given all the "wisdom" of my nearly 27 years of life :uhoh:), the top-shelf guns and makers mentioned, or their equivalents, would have been necessary just to ensure procurement of a weapon that could function virtually flawlessly, let alone drive tacks and have the appearance of sculpture.

Regardless of which side of the divide on which we fall, we've all benefitted from steady technological progress. The men like Baer, Wilson, Clark, Vickers, etc. who make these works of art frankly wouldn't be able to in the same way if manufacturing precision hadn't advanced to the point that:

1) they don't have to fritter away skilled man-hours just to get things to an acceptable starting point for real tuning and customization

2) they likewise don't have all of their time occupied simply making customer-supplied guns function properly and shoot with reasonable accuracy - because

3) functional, affordable, reliable, and reasonably accurate are able to be produced en masse, fulfilling the demand for simply servicable (and, again, our use of this term as compared to what it might have meant in years past shows how good we have it, technologically) weapons, which in turn allows the great makers to produce pieces that are every bit as much art as they are science.

As long as you view these guns for the treasures they are rather then redefine their qualities as essential, and are able to appreciate the service of those that aren't, you've got it right.

As to the man who questioned the "must have" mentality regarding Mercedes-Benzes... drive one.

I can appreciate the servicability of an Accord, Camry, Caravan, or Silverado. They literally allow this country to operate, and I don't disparage them as "lesser" cars.

I've owned, in the following order:
GMC Sierra (1998)
Toyota Tundra (2000)
Chevy Avalanche (2004)
Mercedes-Benz C350 sport (2006) that was the unfortunate victim of a total loss, in which it literally gave its life for mine,
BMW 330 ragtop (2006) - I still didn't know Mercedes was special, and thought it was German cars in general
and now I'm in a 1999 Mercedes-Benz G500, with a 2002 E430 on the side.

I've run the whole gambit from foreign to domestic, 4x4 pickups to the sportiest small cars made, but nothing else on this earth is a Mercedes-Benz.

The nicest gun I own is a Smith and Wesson 439. I really can't go backwards unless I wanted to shoot Jennings or Ravens.

I have shot nice guns though, and while they're nice, perhaps I just don't shoot enough to see the value in owning a gun that's worth three of my paychecks.

"blue collar" weapon

LOL, Thats awesome, I'm def gonna start using that term to describe the workin mans gun.

Proletariat gun: any type of farm tool or improvised weapon
Lower blue collar gun: Anything under $200
Upper blue collar gun: Anything under $500
Middle class gun: Anything over $500
Wealthy class gun: Anything over a $1000

Hows that?

Note all these apply to handguns not rifles

So at least you do admit that going to a Glock is going backwards..


My comment was in jest. I started with 1911's tried Glock's and went back to 1911's. It is all about what we like. One is not better than the other, just different.

If you get seriously into a hobby or pursuit you can, well, get really into it. I used to collect high end watches. I am now down to 3 Rolexes and a few lesser brands.

It's akin to having 30 squirrel tattoos. It's complicated.

I've gone through every faze; but I have settled back into function over form. My budget & my marriage will not handle $3k for a Les Bear or Ed Brown Custom, but it will allow for guns that WORK & don't break the bank. I respect & enjoy my plastic guns (Glock, Spr. Xdm) because they shoot where I point them, every time I pull the trigger. I scratch my 1911 itch with a stainless enhanced series 80 I picked up 12 years ago. I scratch my hand cannon itch with my Ruger revolvers & large frame Smiths. None of these are break the bank pistols, but I am proud of them & expect them to last several lifetimes. While I would love to have the guns ya'll are bragging about, I would probably just worry about scratching them.

If you get seriously into a hobby or pursuit you can, well, get really into it. I used to collect high end watches. I am now down to 3 Rolexes and a few lesser brands.


Wow....I am so clueless! I got a Casio at Wal-Mart for like $14.95. Keeps perfect time.

To each his own, of course, but I really wish I understood it. I can understand that quality costs money, but what does a Rolex do that a Casio can't? Is there a noticeable difference in performance, or is just a status symbol thing?

I'm sure that Les Baer could shoot rings around my G21 SF, but I do pretty well with it, or my G30 SF. Both Glocks hold more rounds than the Les Baer, is lighter in weight, is reliable with every hollowpoint I've found so far, is much less expensive, and like I said, if it gets dropped or scratched, no big deal. It goes where I go.

As long as it works and I hit what I'm aiming at, I'm good!

Sorry that I'm the archtypical "Wal-Mart shopper," but in all honesty, even if I owned a Les Baer, I doubt my shooting skills would improve that much. And I'd guard it way too much to carry it anyway! If I had a ton of money, I'd just buy more ammo (if I can find it) and just practice with my Glock.

I do wish I could understand it all.

Then you wouldn't understand my splurging of $35.00 last week at Wally World for my genuine Timex Expedition quartz that stays in sync with National Bureau of Standards in Colorado to the second would you??!!.......:)

And when I push the button, it glows in the dark and can be used as a low powered flashlight to assist in finding gun parts dropped on the carpet from my lowly PT1911SS!!! Ahhhhh, you need to "step up" in the world" and enjoy the finer things of life!! By the way, it also touts a genuine rubber band to hold it in place on my wrist........just doesn't get any better than that!

I'll challenge you to a match, your Baer vs. my Taurus.............provided that you spot me 5 "X"s.......:evil: You'd better be careful buying all that high dollar stuff........you'll be trying to trade me out of my J C Higgins single shot .22 rifle!!

Some of us never really went forward. *sticks tongue out*

I have only owned one 1911 that was not bone stock, as JMB designed it. A Kimber Series I Target.

I have one plastic gun. The only reason I have this one, is I was asked to test and evaluate this gun for some body guards, private security, and other folks, and kept the guns I tested. Now, I have only one of these.

I hear they have indoor plumbing now...and something called eleck-trick-sit-a-tee.

*grin*

Good looking gun, enjoy, and become one with the gun.

"Who wants nothing, has everything," says the sage.

I love my Timex Expedition, my 1993 Toyota Camry wagon, my SOG Blink, my 3-cell Maglite, and my CZ75B. Yup, there's better stuff out there, but I don't need to know the time in Bang-cock, go from zero to fifty in under 7 seconds (or more), gut and skin a grizzly bear, hold the sun in my hands, or own a pistol that can shoot better than my tired old eyes can see.

But I'm one helluva happy camper.

(I write somewhat tongue-in-cheek, of course, and congratulate you on your fine pistol.)

You must stop and smell the rose's in life.The most expensive ones are not always the best.Like buying guns the best might not be for everyone.I must be BLUE COLLAR .;) They all go bang.

Yeah, I like blue collar, workingman's guns. Y'know why? Because they are the 1911s that landed at Normandy and Okinawa, they are the S&W revolvers that cops carried fighting criminals for 80 years and they are the Glocks found in most cops' holsters today. They are the real deal.

The $2,500 customized Ed Brown or Les Baer etc. guns are just exaggerated and ugly characterizations of the original gun. Seems to me that the original did just fine without front serrations, extended slide releases, ambidextrous oversized safeties, and absurd beaver tail grip extensions. It was also accurate enough to put down a lot of our country's enemies and affordable enough to equip armies.

Bill

Then you wouldn't understand my splurging of $35.00 last week at Wally World for my genuine Timex Expedition quartz that stays in sync with National Bureau of Standards in Colorado to the second would you??!!.......

And when I push the button, it glows in the dark and can be used as a low powered flashlight to assist in finding gun parts dropped on the carpet from my lowly PT1911SS!!! Ahhhhh, you need to "step up" in the world" and enjoy the finer things of life!! By the way, it also touts a genuine rubber band to hold it in place on my wrist........just doesn't get any better than that!

Dude, you're awesome!

My comment was in jest. Yeah, I know the comment was in jest, but realistically going from a custom 1911 to a plastic fantastic is a huge step backwards in quality, aesthetics, workmanship, and so forth. That I can not deny.

The power of SA compels you.

MTS-I wish I could understand it all too. We don't always buy based on pure utility.

Sure a Casio will keep just as good time, if not better than a Rolex.

if you carry a gun for SD, anything that will fire reliably and reasonably accurately will suffice.

Why do some people have many guns, or watches, or cars, or knives?

Why do some people enjoy fine dining out? Expensive steaks, sushi, etc.

I think everyone has their excesses and derive enjoyment from them.

If we all bought just for utility, we would each have no more than maybe three handguns.

The $2,500 customized Ed Brown or Les Baer etc. guns are just exaggerated and ugly characterizations of the original gun. Seems to me that the original did just fine without front serrations, extended slide releases, ambidextrous oversized safeties, and absurd beaver tail grip extensions. It was also accurate enough to put down a lot of our country's enemies and affordable enough to equip armies.
First, Ed Browns don't have front cocking serrations. Baer and others which do have them do so because some people like the additional functionality they give. They are not decorations (I personally prefer not to have them). Same thing with the beavertail grips -- it allows for a higher grip than the Colt duckbill which aids in controllability. The extended slide release makes for a faster reload. Larger safeties means a cleaner and faster safety release. Ambi safeties are great for left handers (I'm not too crazy about them for myself). Seems to me that perhaps it is you who are putting the looks of a gun over function of a gun.

Yes, the 1911 was a great service pistol. But that doesn't mean features can't be added or changed to fit the different needs of civilians or police. For example, the military couldn't or wouldn't use hollow points. Civilians can. Therefore, it makes sense for a civilian or police gun to have a polished ramp. Civilians generally don't have to worry about crawling through mud filled trenches. Thus, you can lower the ejection port.

I would bet money that if JMB were here today, he would heartily approve of most of the changes made for the targeted market.

And let's be clear, many of these features have made their way into some of the mid and low priced 1911s. Just take a look at the Rock Island Tactical Model as an example. It's okay if you think spending money on a high end pistol is a waste of money, but to call a Brown ugly? That's like calling my sister ugly. :D

My first upper end autoloader did everything so well, it actually drove a stake through my desire to buy more that were similar. I was accumulating stuff looking for the "holy grail" and when something came close enough all the starch went out of the "wanting to buy more" part.

So I wound up discovering revolvers - great fun and I now spend more time in that other forum and most of my range time trying to come to terms with the double action trigger.

This no doubt explains why I still get a little prickly when the revolver "love" or "versus" threads get started. After all, if it wasn't for a bottom feeder that ran right and couldn't be limp-wristed, I wouldn't be there in the first place so I tend to take a dim view of some of the mis-guided characterizations of autoloaders which abound in such threads.

Hence, I deftly sidestep the whole "backward" issue - I went off on a whole different tangent. Instead of "get a Glock" being dropped unbidden in totally unrelated threads, we drop references to S&W's lock into totally unrelated discussions.

Same ... unh ... stuff, different bun.

Proletariat gun: any type of farm tool or improvised weapon
Lower blue collar gun: Anything under $200
Upper blue collar gun: Anything under $500
Middle class gun: Anything over $500
Wealthy class gun: Anything over a $1000

OK, is it cummulative? Meaning, can you own enough "blue collar" guns to bump yourself into the middle or wealthy class? ;)

I certainly hope so or I'm just barely a lowly "Middle Class". If it's cumulative, then I'm easily one of those "Wealthy Snobs".:D

When I take inventory in my safe, I realize that I must believe that "more" is better than "status". But one thing I do know for sure.......it sure has been and is fun!:rolleyes: In this hobby, you can't buy "just one"...............

Yes, high end cars are superior to Honda's and Toyota'

Interesting that we don't even consider American-made cars as comparisons anymore.

I don't know that I'd call it backward, but . . .

I recently sold my Les Baer PM II with the 1.5" 50 yard guarantee. The sale had nothing to do with the poor economy or needing money.

I actually realized I preferred shooting my STI Trojan and the LB wasn't getting enough range time to justify keeping it.

I guess it could be said that I went backwards, as the STI cost exactly half of what the LB cost (I bought them both used), but I'm still happy with the decision.