[Sven]

During rifle clean up today, the darn cleaning rod got stuck about 2" into the barrel with a wet patch... being the idiot I am, I gently tried to force it down the barrel. No luck. Finally, I pulled out, trimmed my patches down 1/4" and they worked just fine.

Upon final inspection, imagine my horror to see that there were tiny marks left on the lands, about 2" in from the muzzle. Looks like I pushed the jag into the lands, and marred them. Man, what a painful lesson.

The problem looks like it might appear worse than it might be in actuality, because what is happening is cleaning patches are leaving little furries on this spot, and I am seeing the fuzzies when I inspect the bore.

I'm guessing that next time I fire the rifle (holding it away from my face) these marks will wear down... anyone have this happen before? Fortunately, the crown wasn't damaged, but is this as bad for accuracy as I think it might be?

I'm switching to an Otis cleaning kit, pronto. I'm glad this wasn't on my Krieger M1A barrel - now THAT would have been a truly expensive lesson. The rifle I was cleaning already struggles to get 3" groups at 50 yards (M1 Carbine), but this is the original barrel from 1944... I feel like I just destroyed a little bit of history. Well, HURT a little bit of history.

-s, with a sinking feeling

[Jaywalker]

Can't speak to the possible damage, but I use linen as patches - at least the last one through the bore. Linen doesn't leave fuzzies. Old worn out dishtowels (not the terrycloth kind) tend to be a good source. Good if you check with the SO, that is. Some of them have a sentimental attachment to old, full of holes towels. Go figure.

Jaywalker

[sm]

Sven, sorry to hear about that, really sorry.

Otis kits are good, some have troubles, but a little paractice makes making the "cone "easy. You will have to order extral patches, the kits don't come with many. Recommend the Tactical Kit. ( I can't believe I used the "T" word) You can use regular patches, make a slit,you'll get the size figured. Cheat, use a bronze bush, either cut a slit in center of patch and fit over brush and pull through, or slit the patch about 1/2 in and just "lightly wrap". ( like the old Rusty Duck bore cleaner pull through for shotguns...that dates me huh?)

That said , I don't clean bores until accuracy falls, been quite awhile since I cleaned any of my bores. I subscribe to Schueman's /McMillians's advice. I do keep chamber dry and clean extraction. FWIW I have seen bbl cut lengthwise that had to be replaced. High and low spots as Shuemann /McMillian said would occur.

Yeah, bet the accuracy is way off. Shoot , don't clean bbl for a bit, see if smooths, and damage decreases.

I've never done this myself, still can feel the anguish.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=124412#post124412

http://www.schuemann.com/



HTH

[jrhead75]

A brass jag shouldn't have dinged up your bore. Are you sure that's what caused it?

[Kharn]

My Oly AR15 upper was having extraction issues the last range trip (the little rubber insert was missing from the extractor spring, I replaced the spring, the insert and added a D-ring to make it even stronger), so when one empty got stuck in the chamber, I pulled out the cleaning rod, assembled it and stuck it down the bore to push the case out.

Well, my aluminum cleaning road had some flex in it, and when I gave it the final blow to free the case, the rod also flexed so it was in contact with the crown of the barrel. It put a big scrap mark on the cleaning rod, about 1" long, and I can plainly see where the land and two grooves were that rubbed on the rod, I forgot to look at the crown when cleaning the gun that evening (I'm back at college now, so I cant just pull it out and look), but I'm sort of afraid of what I will find on my next range trip. :(

Kharn

[45R]

Sven-

Mannnn I'm sorry to hear about your M1 Carbine. I've thought about picking up a otis kit now and then but I have a "patchworm" from 20/20 Concepts (http://20-20.8m.com/) that works really well and it only runs about 10 bucks shipped. I've gotten really good results with it out of all my rifles, shotguns and pistols. Give it a try.


Take care

45R

[Sven]

Will do, 45R. One other detail that might shed light on what happened today: I was using a new muzzle guide and failed to realize that the patch would feed differently than it did previously, without the guide. Over-eager to try out the new guide (which did protect the muzzle), I got the jag jammed half in the bore, half in the guide.

Instead of backing out, I tried to push forward. Rod is a Dewey Coated, Parker Hale-type jag used.

Doh!

One thing though - the patches were going in and coming out wet, and the following patches were bright blue! Hoppe's #9 never did this for me before - might be the surplus CMP ammo leaving gilding (?). I feel better about cleaning, because there was some serious crud in there.

With the M1A I will probably follow the advise of the sages and clean as little as possible, except my chamber.

[Houndawg]

A brass jag won't damage a bore. If anything you might have gotten some brass on the lands and they look like scratches.

[Sven]

OK, that's good news. I'm hoping for the best - will shoot and report what I see after.

[Jmurman]

One thing though - the patches were going in and coming out wet, and the following patches were bright blue!

Bright Blue/green is the indication of copper fouling interacting with your bore cleaner.

The thing that I dont like about my Otis is I am not able to really get a good barrel scrub like I can with my Deweys.

[VG]

I use an Otis kit but use standard patches for all but the last pass.

I find it faster than a rod.

[bogie]

Could be you already had a rough spot on the bore.

If you use/own an aluminum cleaning rod, give it to the guy at your range who always gets on your nerves. Buy a one-piece rod, coated/uncoated as per your philosophy (I use both uncoated Pro-Shot and coated Dewey rods).

Use a bore guide.

[Andrew Wyatt]

I should get a dewey rod, or spring for real patches and whatnot.

[sm]

Yeah I have uncoated steel rods with bore and muzzle guards, I use these or Otis,I just don't get all worked up about cleaning bores.

bogie since you have coated rod, have you ever had a problem with the coating. Not picking on you, just noticed you have one. I used to make a sort of lapping tool by using heat shrink on rods and then impregnanting with compunds, these resembled the coated rods, hence I've stayed away. Ever had a problem with coating getting cut, or coming undone?

I just stayed with uncoated steel and wiped b/t passes. Curious how strong these new graphite might be...thinking is strong, but flex, not good.

sorry OT kinda, figured we all might learn tho'

[ocabj]

I use a Dewey cleaning rod and a Stoney Point bore guide for my bolt action. I use 1-3/4" patches I bought from Sinclair Intl. These work good on a Pierce Style jag in my .308. I had to order online because I couldn't find good patches locally. I did find some from a local dealer, but i had to cut them in fourths to get them to fit because they were so thick. I got tired of this and just ordered the ones from Sinclair.

They have a chart in the print catalog on which of their patches to get for what calibers:

3/4" square: 17 to 22 cal
1-1/8" square: 22 cal centerfire
1-3/8" square: oversize 22 cal to 6mm
1-3/4" square: 6mm to .30 cal
2" round: 30 to 38 cal
2-1/4" square: 38 to 45 cal
3" square: shotgun & misc

Try to get brass for any bore cleaning: brass jags, brass brushes with brass cores, bore mops with brass core. Used properly, you won't damage the bore.

What do you guys like for solvents? It seems everyone has their own taste. Right now I've been using Shooter's Choice to clean out the fouling, then follow it up with Butch's Bore Shine.

[Sven]

UPDATE

Good news - I thoroughly cleaned again with my new Otis kit... tons and tons of gunk came out of the barrel using nylon brush and Hoppes, followed by tight dry patches.

What I thought was a mar on the barrel was just built up fouling that had caught and snagged patches in previous cleaning attempts... HUGE relief.

Thanks for all the help!

[Houndawg]

Glad it worked out for you.

[bogie]

Keep your cleaning rods clean.

Not a problem.

[Steve Smith]

I use a Dewey coated rod and I have never had a problem with the coating. I imagine over time it could be an issue, but I do wipe mine every pass.

[P95Carry]

Good result in the end then Sven .. some relief!!

I am with re1973 for most part .. I do not clean the bores every time at all .... at least, not ''scrubbing'' cleaning. I might from time to time, put a lightly fitting patch down on a jag with a hint of G96 or something ..... and then a clean one to follow. ''Minimalist'' approach!

I have found tho one thing that can be ''hairy'' ..... no two actually.

1] . If I put corrosive thru my MkIV Enfield and then have to do the appropriate cleaning sequence ...... I find that a ''water wet'' patch can stick ...... and I mean STICK!! Have had some hairy moments with those at times. Al rods too - they suck . I am converting to Dewey now.

2] . The muzzle brake on my L1A1 is a b*tch ..... if I am cleaning from the muzzle end .... it is sometimes more than tricky getting patch back out thru the brake .. it can jam big time.

[BKP99]

Try Hunter's Extreme Coppermelt (there's a website)

This stuff is made in Canada and uses a bit of ammonia and enzymes to really clean bores quick. You use an undersized plastic brush, wrap patch around it, wet patch with the stuff and just pull back and forth 8-20X until patch is really dirty. It pulls off copper and eats fouling like nothing else and you NEVER have to scrub barrel with metal brush.

I tried in on my P99 barrel I had scrubbed with MPRO 7 and the patch came out blue (copper) then nothing.

I recently broke in my new Swissarms (civilian copy of Sig 550 available in canada for about $2000 US:neener: ) with about 100 rounds. When I went home the first 3 patches with Coppermelt were blue, then the next 4 grey then nothing. Afterwards I use a patch and flush the bore with MPRO 7 to flush out the coppermelt. The maker states it doesn't hurt the bore but I'm extra careful.

YOu can't use bronze jags or brushes as it will attack the copper in it.

It's great stuff and I will never have to scrub/scratch bores again!!!

[P95Carry]

BKP99 .... sounds very useful .... I am ever on lookout for better cleaning stuff and have tried most but .... may have to try this.

Downside is ... cost!! hellish expensive but ... as mentioned on the site where I found it available ..

http://www.neconos.com/shop/index.php?shop=1&cat=9&cart=6948 COPPERMELT will revolutionize the way that the bores of firearms are cleaned and maintained. COPPERMELT will quickly and easily remove copper, lead, and all other forms of fouling, including the plastic left by shot cups, from the bores of rifles, pistols and shotguns. It removes deposits thought to be associated with moly coated bullets. COPPERMELT is not an abrasive and will not remove moly treatment form the bore. COPPERMELT is being used by the U.S. Army to clean large bore weapons and cannon tubes. COPPERMELT may seem pricey at first glance but, when properly used, is economical and extremely efficient. COPPERMELT will not harm barrel steel (stainless or Chrome-moly)or bluing. It is water soluble. The following information should help you decide the size bottle of COPPERMELT fits your needs. 2.3 oz bottle 140+ cleanings/bottle @ $.17/cleaning 3.5 oz bottle 218 cleanings/bottle @ $.14/cleaning 8.0 oz bottle 500 cleanings/bottle @ $.10/cleaning 16 oz bottle 1000 cleanings/bottle @ $.09/cleaning 2 x 2.3 oz bottles will set you back $47.95 + S7H ... pretty hefty.

May yet look into that.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh hang on more options ....

3.5oz @ $29.95, 8oz @ $49.95

[BKP99]

You don't need much. Each bottle comes with a tiny little dropper. A few drops to moisten the patch is all that's needed. Plus since it's so powerful you end up using much fewer patches and other cleaners. My rifle bore was absolutely clean after about 15 minutes or so and about 8 patches of coppermelt.

[P95Carry]

Will be trying it out after all! Have ordered a 3.5oz from that site ... needed some bore paste too ... so we'll see.:)

[Starpower]

That may be expensive, but Painful? My son-in-law last trip to the range, wanted to shoot the Mini-14 in the Bullpup. He's left handed. Put it up the left shoulder, lay your cheeck down on the butt stock to look through the red dot scope sight it in, and pull the trigger! The bolt thumb handle should have a sign on it that says "Danger! Object may travel further than the point of your chin!" According to him, that's painful.

[RustyHammer]

Great news Sven .. glad it worked out.

BoreSnakes work well too and let you clean from the breach end, which is better. Nice to have a few around in various calibers ...

/Rusty

[BevrFevr]

A note on using hoppes #9 it is great stuff but it does'nt stop working when you think the barrel is clean. Often times on older barrels like yours especially, you will clean it super clean with hoppes and then the next day if you run a patch you will find it "pushed out" more gunk. Day 3 often is the same story.

I use bore-snakes and a pro shot stainless rods and have great results.

Good Luck -bevr

[Sven]

Star: That Mini14 story was painful to read... I was 'hurt' thinking that the WWII carbine I inherited (original Winchester) may have been effectively farked up after 60 years by my negligence... but, agreed: that's not real PAIN.

Otis kit cleans from the breech, just like the boresnake.

I usually do a dry patch the next day and see more copper or fouling when using Hoppes #9. I'm going to switch to Shooter's Choice / Sweets (being very careful esp. with the latter) as a lot of shooters I respect use this combo. Note that these solvents CANNOT be used at the same time as bad things might happen.