[Speedo66]

Do they put extra padding around the package?

Do the shipments go in special trucks?

Do only specially trained personel handle it? Do they get hazardous duty pay?

What do they do to justify a $22.50 fee over and above the regular shipping charge?

I ordered some powder which hasn't arrived yet, just curious.

[fourdollarbill]

USPS, FedEx, UPS, etc... have no clue. They just know to charge more and mark the load hazmat. Some how by marking the bill of lading makes the gun powder unable to ignite.

[ants]

They use their HazMat certification to fill out paperwork.

That's about it. There is no government requirement to charge a fee. The government requires no hazmat fee.

[RandyP]

I would guess that the carrier gets the $$ to help offset the insurance premiums they have to pay to accept the liability of the hazardous cargo?

I dunno, just my guess as I try to digest the 2 tons of Easter ham in my tummy -lol

[Shireman]

Hey, if you can buy Polonium-210 (http://www.unitednuclear.com/isotopes.htm) without a hazmat fee - there's no reason to charge us for primers and powder!!!

[the_right_reverend]

51,000 primers per $22.50:D

[1911user]

They don't ship in special trucks. The packaging is stronger and done by certified packers. There is also some paper work to be filed for the shipment.

As a practical matter though, you pay $22.50 plus shipping to purchase from non-local sources for powder and primers. Only you can decide if it is worth the extra fees.

About 23 years ago and earlier, powder and primers could only be shipped to FFL holders. I think that changed in '86 but I'm not positive. I think the same change also allowed ammo shipments to non-FFL holders. I'm not sure what the powder/primer shipping situation was before GCA'68 passed.

[evan price]

What you get is they will ALLOW you to ship flammable solids via their service. Otherwise, they would say NO and you have to go get your own stuff.

[lgbloader]

Truth be told on why the haz mat surcharge. Not every carrier is allowed to carry haz mat. You must be haz mat certified. Usually, carriers will charge you a haz mat fee for every UN number. This number is dictated by the class of haz mat. for Example, Explosives is Class 1 haz mat. Class 2 is compressed gas, class 3 is flammable liquid, class 4 is flammable solid.... so on and so forth. you have radiactive, oxidizers, poisonous, corrosive, even magnetic can be hazardous in air craft.

This freight must be packaged and labeled correctly and the correct documents must accompany the Truck bill of lading, Ocean bill of lading or if your shipping via air, Air way bill. The truck trailer or container must also be dressed with the correct haz mat placards. There must be a hazardous material declaration which includes, the Class, Un number, Flash point, and 24 hour contact as well as the shipper and consignee info, pc count weight and dims. Since not every carrier or freight agent is DGR Certified (Dangerous Goods/Restricted articles), they can and will charge a Haz mat fee/surcharge. $20.00 is not that bad. Aircraft cargo is it usually around $75.00 - $95.00 per UN number. Heaven forbid you ever want to ship this stuff out of the country because then you will need to have the U.S. State Dept issue you a DSP-73 license / permit. You will need to be licensed yourself and be able to make compliance or believe me, U.S. Customs can and will be a pain when it comes to this. Probably even cease your freight.

LGB

[Cliph]

Is the Hazmat fee per pound or a flat fee?

[evan price]

flat fee up to 50#-ish

[ArchAngelCD]

Is the Hazmat fee per pound or a flat fee?
It's a flat fee for even the smallest order. They charge you $22.50 for 1,000 primers or 40,000 primers.

Here's my guess, Since the Government can't charge you Federal Excise Tax on components like they do with loaded ammo they hit us with a Hazmat fee to make up for it. Here's my proof... There is no Hazmat fee charged when you order loaded ammo online even though loaded ammo is more hazardous than components. Possible, no???

[armoredman]

Haz Mat drivers are certified for HazMat, I had to have it when I drove oxygen. Vehicles are supposed to meet tighter standards of safety, but that can "vary"...

[mgkdrgn]

Since the Government can't charge you Federal Excise Tax on components like they do with loaded ammo they hit us with a Hazmat fee to make up for it.

Nice theory .... but the government doesn't get the FEE .. the carrier does.

[rscalzo]

Haz Mat drivers are certified for HazMat

I understand the hazmat cert. for hauling O2 and gas, etc. But when powder is in the back of the UPS truck, is the driver required to have a hazmat endorsement on his CDL?

I'm thinking no because of the small quantities involved but we never got into DOT regs on our level.

[ants]

mgkdrgn is correct.



And the carrier decides how much to charge. Flat fee, per unit weight, per UN number, or whatever.
The carrier is the one who sets the rate.

There is NO government requirement to charge a fee. It's a way for the carrier to make extra money.


.

[rcmodel]

As one who had to be re-certified every three years in an 8 hour class, and deal with knowing two big books full of conflicting rules & regs. (DOT & EPA)

And be tested on it to maintain my job.

And having to remember all that crap in order to fill out all the paperwork correctly on every shipment, without running afoul of either DOT or EPA regs that often didn't agree with each other.

And having to have all the labels & forms, and make sure the truck driver did too.

Whatever they charge just barely covers the time, training & paperwork costs involved.

In fact, it's a bargain.

rc

[rfwobbly]

Hey, if you can buy Polonium-210 without a hazmat fee - there's no reason to charge us for primers and powder!!!

Gosh I hope Obama doesn't try to put a ban on Plutonium, because the home bomb builders will just go nuts and buy up all the home-loading materials. Prices will skyrocket. Pretty soon all the bomb builder's supply store shelves will be empty. If that happens, I'll never be able to finish my home defense tactical nuke.

:neener:

[Geneseo1911]

At the gun club a couple weeks ago, I overheard one old geezer telling another old geezer that George HW Bush had a brother in law who was CEO of FedEx and he made a law that they can charge the haz-mat fee to screw all the gun owners.:rolleyes:

[ReloaderFred]

Did he tell them about the black helicopters, too? Don't get too close to the guy, because he's full of it.

I was an FFL dealer when the HazMat fees were first introduced. If I remember correctly, it started at about $5.00. As noted, it's a fee charged by the two carriers, UPS and FedEx, (Man, I miss Railway Express!) even though there has never been a documented case of gunpowder or primers causing a HazMat condition with either carrier.

The fee pays for the training and paperwork that goes with carrying hazardous materials. I've been the incident commander on numerous HazMat incidents, but they all involved chemicals, and some of those were really nasty stuff.

And once again, the government doesn't get anything from the HazMat fees, and there is no federal law requiring the fee. There is federal law concerning transport of all hazardous materials, and powder and primers just happen to fall within those transportation laws.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Walkalong]

it started at about $5.00.Yep, and a lot of us said, oh well, $5 isn't too bad, but like all fees/taxes it never stops where it started. :fire:

[SSN Vet]

trick question?

powder and primers delivered to your door..... :neener:

[ilbob]

Its mostly to cover the cost of government regulations regarding transport of hazardous materials. Its a major PITA to abide by the regulations and they have gotten progressively worse. I am guessing the $20 charged probably is not far from the extra cost the carrier actually incurs.

[jmahalek]

Just what Do You Get For The Hazmat Fee?

...screwed. :D

[RustyFN]

AFAIK it's only a UPS and Fed-X charge. If you buy a pallet of primers and powder and have it shipped LTL to a business you won't have to pay any hazmat.
Rusty

[SquirrelNuts]

I worked for UPS part-time for three months a while back. We trained on Haz Mat a little. Everything we ever discussed was procedureal...such as do not load two Haz Mat packages next to each other in the package car. It has a candy striped piece of paperwork with about 10 carbon copies on it. The driver was required to carry one of those copies in the cab in case something happened to the vehicle. The driver could give the slips to the first responders so they knew what was on the truck. Other than a few in-house rules, they were treated like everything else...thrown, smashed, kicked, etc. :)

[TxBaaylea]

Because they can = extra profit.

Vernon

[ArchAngelCD]

Why do they consider primers hazardous but not loaded ammo? I would think a primer alone is much safer than a primer which is in contact with powder topped by a bullet in loaded ammo.

[evan price]

Loaded ammo is ORM-D (like spray cans), not hazmat. Supposedly because the whole thing is contained in metal and therefore, safe. Has to go ground only, though.

[ReloaderFred]

ArchAngelCD,

Primers are an actual explosive, and when there are a lot of them in one place, can cause damage if detonated together. That's why almost all the primer manufacturers put them in individual holes in the packaging.

Gunpowder is a propellant, and doesn't explode, except for black powder. It burns rapidly, but doesn't explode. Once it's loaded into a cartridge, it's fully contained and generally won't go off if dropped, crushed, etc., whereas primers will go off if dropped, crushed, etc.

That's the primary differences between the two under DOT and UN shipping rules.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[ArchAngelCD]

Fred,
Stop bringing logic into my conspiracy theories! :neener:

[rogn]

But who reaps the benefits of the cold clammy hand in my wallet? Is it the gummint or the indiferent shipping cos. $22.50 would indicate the best part of an hour to read or learn to read the extra labels; I think theres a profit margin engineered into this beuracratic event also. Outside of some benefit to first responders, this seems to be another indirect form of taxation.

[ReloaderFred]

ArchAngelCD,

Sorry about that, but I'm from the world of "just the facts, Mam, nothing but the facts". I just can't help myself sometimes......

rogn,

All the money collected for the HazMat fees goes to the transportation company (UPS or Fedex). Nothing goes to the government, neither local, state or federal. It is possible that some companies add a small amount to cover the paperwork and training required to be able to ship Hazardous Materials.

When I had my FFL, I used to buy from Bower Wholesale, when it was in Los Angeles. They would ship everything except powder and primers. When I asked them about it, they said their shipping guy was "too stupid to get through the class required to ship them, and probably couldn't get the paperwork straight". They had the best prices around at that time, so if I was in the area, I would stop by and stock up. Otherwise I would order from the companies that would ship, and pay the exorbitant $5.00 HazMat they were charging at the time......

Hope this helps.

Fred

[lgbloader]

It has a candy striped piece of paperwork with about 10 carbon copies on it

That would be the Hazardous Material declaration that I advised about in post# 9.

LGB.

[qajaq59]

What do they do to justify a $22.50 fee over and above the regular shipping charge? My guess is that you just get more paper, plus an employee to file it. Isn't that what most regulations are for?

[rogn]

Back in the old days when the hazmat fee was born, the only conceivable reason we could discern was that some enterprising young lion at UPS found a new route into the retailers( and consumer's) wallets. Much may I add as a virus in a computer. Now since this has gone on forever, we are "happily" paying this small amout of corporate extortion. Thats my only real point, we're being "taxed" this time by corporate, with no tangible benefits. First responders excepted.

[CPT Kirk]

ReloaderFred has the correct information on this topic. But several others have noted that there is no real difference in how the packages are handled (dropped, kicked, thrown, whatever) by the drivers even after they have the training.

Only thing to add is that the shipper (seller) has to pay for the proper packaging and the extra costs associated with that - not UPS/Fedex.

[langenc]

You get your plastic acct lightened by $20.

[rogn]

$22.50

[mgkdrgn]

yep ... I was the hazmat specialist when I was doing air cargo, and then later as a hazmat shipper (medical testing kits) some 15 - 20 years ago, and can testify that all of what is below is true.

Oh, and the training is ever three years ... but the rules change =constantly=.

Penalty for not following the rules? A felony ... 5 years and $25K per incident, to whom evers name is on the paperwork.

As one who had to be re-certified every three years in an 8 hour class, and deal with knowing two big books full of conflicting rules & regs. (DOT & EPA)

And be tested on it to maintain my job.

And having to remember all that crap in order to fill out all the paperwork correctly on every shipment, without running afoul of either DOT or EPA regs that often didn't agree with each other.

And having to have all the labels & forms, and make sure the truck driver did too.

Whatever they charge just barely covers the time, training & paperwork costs involved.

In fact, it's a bargain.

rc

[SSN Vet]

In fact, it's a bargain.

no it's a bureaucratic pile of paper...

and that, my friend, is never a bargain.

in the end the box of powder goes on the truck with all of the other packages and gets delivered in the same manner.... only with a LOT more paper following it around

[mgkdrgn]

no it's a ...

and that, my friend, is never a bargain.

in the end the box of powder goes on the truck with all of the other packages and gets delivered in the same manner.... only with a LOT more paper following it around

Please feel free to ask the families of the passengers of the ValueJet that did a nose dive into the everglades in 1996 about the "value of that bureaucratic pile of paper".

If the rules in that "pile of paper" had been followed, those folks would still be alive. The lessons learned that are the basis of the HazMat rules have been paid for in blood.