Edmund, OK, bans toy guns made to look real.


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April 14, 2009, 01:07 PM
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0409/613082.html

Edmond - The Edmond City Council has voted to ban toy guns and airsoft guns that are altered to look like a real gun.

Police asked for the new law after a number of incidents in which people with altered toy guns were almost shot by officers
answering calls about suspects with guns.

Airsoft guns and other toy guns come with an orange tip so officers can tell them apart from the real thing.

But Officer Matt Hardin says people are using markers or spray paint to cover up the orange tips and make it nearly impossible for
an officer to know if the gun is real.

The new law goes into effect in 30 days and calls for a $244 fine for possessing an altered gun and a $544 fine for threatening
another person with an altered toy gun.

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Baneblade
April 14, 2009, 01:28 PM
My agency deployed our TOT (our version of SWAT) to a rooftop sniper. He had an airsoft rifle that was indenticle to the real thing... right up until you picked it up.

I don't know that passing a law will change it though. I will be interested to see if it helps.

I have arrested a kid for shooting people with an "UZI." He had painted it black and the victims thought he was shooting them with a real gun. His attitude did not allow me to turn it into an educational experience instead of an enforcement issue.

Some of our High School students were performing "drive by shootings" with an airsoft pistol. With the cooperation of their parents and the school I was able to turn that into an educational experience without arresting anyone.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 14, 2009, 02:35 PM
What about unaltered airsoft guns that already look like a real gun? :rolleyes:

The town's name is "Edmond".

Hungry Seagull
April 14, 2009, 02:48 PM
I tell you this. I think Arkansas tried to ban toy guns that look real but not sure where it went now that the Session is over.

I cannot take that extra half a second to verify if a gun is real or not, particularly if the person holding it has body language of one who intends to use it.

Toy guns that look real will get people dead. Just hope I never run into one.

And to think I played with a Uzi toy that was very close to full size back in the day with water guns. Man was I stupid.

mljdeckard
April 14, 2009, 02:57 PM
I don't know how I feel about a law, but this is the reason my kids don't have any toy guns. They know that guns aren't toys. I don't want them to develop the mentality that "it's ok to break the four rules as long as it's just a toy."

When I was a kid, my grandparents had a pair of pistols that shot suction cup darts with a little cardboard target. My grandfather caught me pointing one at one of the other kids, and he took it away, telling me; "You NEVER point a gun at another person. I don't care if it's just a toy."

In this state, if you used an airsoft pistol to commit a crime, there is no distinction in the law that says it is different than if you used a real gun to rob someone. The grandparents know not to buy my kids any toy guns. If they buy a water gun, it has to be made in a way that it doesn't resemble any kind of real gun.

Phatty
April 14, 2009, 03:15 PM
If they buy a water gun, it has to be made in a way that it doesn't resemble any kind of real gun.
I can't even remember the last time I saw a water gun that remotely resembled a real gun.

Hungry Seagull
April 14, 2009, 03:18 PM
About 15 years ago they started painted water guns with gallon tanks in puke green and glow pink colors.

The sales pretty much dropped off the cliff for a time. We got out of water gun chasing and got into paintball which was just getting started.

Pistol Toter
April 14, 2009, 03:20 PM
And to think I played with a Uzi toy that was very close to full size back in the day with water guns. Man was I stupid.

Not Stupid, maybe just unwise or unthoughtful. I don't know how old you are, friend. I do believe that mind set and behaviour of youth and teenagers has radically changed. The grandparent that chasitzed the child pointing the dart gun was most inorder. It obviously made the correct impression. That's where rub is; parents aren't teaching children right form wrong to start with. Even parents who bring up children in the way they should go, seem to depart from their up-bringings today. I guess it's a sign of the times and it surely is frightening. Let me atest, I'm seeing that in my own family. Those of you who may have read a thread that I had the other day realize that I am very disappointed in my off spring. It is greiving my wife and I in an unmeasurable way. I wish there were many opportunities for LEO to scare the bejebbers out of some kids, but alas that is not their job or responsibility, just an opportunity to make a difference where some of us have failed. To the man who turned the incident into an educational event; I thank you. I'm not so sure that the law is not a good idea. Boy! That cuts across grain, myself included. Just my thoughts, fellows. P.T.

Hungry Seagull
April 14, 2009, 03:29 PM
Im past 40.

Some of the very favorite toy guns were those with a bolt, spring and a mechanism for firing disk shaped disks (Ugh...) similar to Tron Movie disks.

Those things made for some GOOD gunfights. Wonder why no one lost an eye. I can recall the "KLING!" of the thing firing to this day.

There were a tremendous amount of... loss of... how do I say it... things to get into and not get into trouble between the 70's and today.

The internet of the 70's started at dinner time. Momma stood on back porch and screamed each kid's name. Other mommas picked up the call and added thier kids names.

Eventually we all got the word despite living in a very large subdivision where no door was locked in those days.

Today? Ugh. It's a armed city eyeballing your every move.

Lou McGopher
April 14, 2009, 03:33 PM
Do they think toy gun control will be anymore effective than real gun control?

ArmedBear
April 14, 2009, 03:34 PM
Some of our High School students were performing "drive by shootings" with an airsoft pistol.

They were lucky.

There are many of us who would react to someone who drove by pointing a gun at us by shooting him. I'd sure hate to shoot a dumb teenager, even if it WAS his fault.

When I was a kid, someone gave me a book to read about how a kid was blinded by his friends throwing a firecracker. Put the fear of God in me. Aren't there books like that now?

Dark Skies
April 14, 2009, 03:39 PM
When I was a kid pretty much all toy guns were made of metal and looked very convincing. They also had caps, went bang and smoked. Some even shot plastic bullets by spring power - I used to stick one of my mum's knitting needles down the muzzle and turned it into a speargun. :) All kids did that. In the street, and didn't get so much as a second glance by a cop. Somewhere society has lost the plot.

jnyork
April 14, 2009, 03:42 PM
don't know how I feel about a law, but this is the reason my kids don't have any toy guns. They know that guns aren't toys. I don't want them to develop the mentality that "it's ok to break the four rules as long as it's just a toy."

This is the same reason my Dad would not allow me to have a bb gun. He taught me to respect the damage that "real" guns could cause, and how to handle them. I had a .22 rifle at age 8 or 9, but never had a bb gun.

runrabbitrun
April 14, 2009, 03:47 PM
We've taken AirSoft M4s (2/3 scale) and painted the orange tips.
The suckers look real.

Of course we are NOT stupid enough to take them
on the streets and/or point them at LE or anyone else.

I can see where LE or someone could mistake these toys as real
and kill a kid. Man that would suck and I know it's already happened.

Education is the key and the moment our AirSofts arrived the first rule was.
Treat it like it's a real gun and you will be ok.

ArmedBear
April 14, 2009, 03:51 PM
Education is the key and the moment our AirSofts arrived the first rule was.
Treat it like it's a real gun and you will be ok.

That's what I was taught about cap guns when I was a kid. Worked for me.

I hate to see laws against things. If you want an Airsoft AR that looks real, then fine. But if you get shot by a cop, then that's your problem.

The thing is, cops are human beings. I can't imagine what it would feel like to kill someone's 13 year old son in front of their house, when he has a plastic toy in his hands. Even though we all know, rationally, that the kid was 100% at fault, the human conscience doesn't work quite like that.

I don't like laws like this. Actions should be illegal, not objects. Period.

But I do understand why these laws are made.

Nugilum
April 14, 2009, 03:52 PM
Since our (USA) "culture" went to the point of hiding guns and not talking about them, the current generation of parents have either refused to or don't know how to teach gun safety to their children.

I believe the fault lies in the parents (or lack of parenting). Most kids don't know they're doing bad things because they've haven't been told that that behavior is unacceptable.

Hungry Seagull
April 14, 2009, 04:50 PM
I remember a time when Daddys were Daddies and Mommys Mommies.

Somewhere along the years, niether parent could administer a spanking to a disobdient child without a dozen others generating 911 calls ranging from child abuse to neglect.

qwert65
April 14, 2009, 04:52 PM
Well, my brother and I our cousins and freinds played with realistic looking guns from the 1950s(our parents) all the time this was 80s early 90s we always pointed them at each other(kinda hard to play cowboys and Indians/cops and robbers without pointing at ppl)

I remember in the late 80s a kid in my cousins devolpment was killed by a PO mistaking his toy for a real one but what happened was
1 Parents left kid alone didn't tell neighbor
2 neighbor sees lights going on and off calls Police
3 police enter and for some reason kid pops from behind couch with toy pistol

To me though it's a common sense thing for example we would run around outside pretending to shoot each other all the time(like every day in the summer) but we never walked up to a stranger or one of our folks who wasnt "in the game" and shot at them.
Now a bunch of us had real guns which we only used with our parents supervison. I don't think as a group we were any smarter then any other random group of kids but somehow we could tell the difference btw REAL guns and FAKE guns.

Banning toys is the same as blaming murders on guns. it's how you use them.

Cannonball888
April 14, 2009, 05:28 PM
My agency deployed our TOT (our version of SWAT) to a rooftop sniper. He had an airsoft rifle that was indenticle to the real thing... right up until you picked it up.
Toys for TOT?

Hungry Seagull
April 14, 2009, 05:39 PM
I think he meant Time on Target.

Gamera
April 14, 2009, 06:06 PM
I'm with Armed Bear on this one. Make the actions illegal, not the objects.

SpecialKalltheway
April 14, 2009, 06:18 PM
+ a million for

actions illegal, not objects.

Hammerhead6814
April 14, 2009, 06:26 PM
Got to agree with this one. There isn't a whole lot that would be worse than being a cop and then shooting someone who looked like a real threat, only to find out he was holding a toy.

Justin
April 14, 2009, 06:31 PM
So, do they really intend to fine a ten year old kid over $200 just because he took a can of Krylon to a toy gun?

That seems a bit ridiculous.

JT1JT1
April 14, 2009, 06:38 PM
I dunno, if I were a bad guy in Edmond, I'd consider painting the tip of my real gun orange so the police and politicians would leave me alone while OCing and going about my business... ;)

Hungry Seagull
April 14, 2009, 06:39 PM
In a hobby shop you cannot buy a paint can without :Scrutiny: in some areas now. Particularly certain paints that minors would use to huff with.

ArmedBear
April 14, 2009, 06:41 PM
Well, some kids might get drain bamaged and end up wards of the state or something, Hungry Seagull.

I do have the solution:

1. Freedom to do whatever you want, as long as you don't do it to anyone but yourself or other consenting parties.

2. Tax-funded health care for those who damage themselves beyond repair through their own actions. It would consist of the best, most painless euthanasia that science knows about.

I honestly don't think that all the laws in the world, that often end up unintentionally ensnaring those of us who don't need to be saved from ourselves, can stop those hell-bent on removing themselves from the gene pool. Natural selection is important; why try to stop it?

WRT this law, this does mean that someone who takes a pink water gun and spray paints it black for a school play is now a criminal even if he destroys it after the production is over. That's what I mean by "unintentionally ensnaring."

Hungry Seagull
April 14, 2009, 06:43 PM
Arkansas ban is now law. No real looking toy guns.

http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0409/613153.html

Baneblade
April 14, 2009, 06:53 PM
Cannonball, TOT stands for Tactical Operations Team. Same thing as SWAT, just a different name. However, I got a good laugh at Toys for TOT.

I would be okay with a City ordinance banning realistic toy guns. Not for the purpose of enforcement, just education. We have several laws that are written for education purposes without any legal basis for enforcement.

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