Prediction - Please read new reloaders


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kestak
April 15, 2009, 12:44 PM
Greetings,

Did you also notice how many new reloaders are posting questions on THR or firingline?

Did you also notice how many new reloaders are suggesting SCARY stuff?

Did you also notice how many new reloaders are making sloppy mistakes?

Did you notice how many new reloaders reload without a reloading handbook?

Two years ago, I was not reloading. It took me weeks before I was able to reload my first round. I asked litterally more than a hundred questions and I read 4 books.

Just in the last 3 weeks, I mentioned 3 times and sent 5 PMs to those new reloaders guys mentionning their practice is dangerous and they SHOULD read the instructions BEFORE reloading their first cartridge.

They are not even scared that they are handling explosives and they create a small explosion in their hand...

There is one who answered to me saying he does not need to read anything or to have a log book because he just have to check on Internet. Doh!

I see we have here many new reloaders who asked questions. For those who are lurkers and do not ask, please ask and please be careful.

- NO QUESTION IS STUPID (Even if I feel stupid often asking my questions)
- Buy reloading books, read the instructions before doing something. In doubt, ask. You can ask here, call the manufacturer or go to your gun club and ask to the old timers.
- Check and double check. Be concentrated whith your reloading and avoid distractions.
- Slow is good, haste is potential disaster.
- Discipline is the key.
- Cleanliness and order also is the key. Your reloading bench must be clean and ordered.
- A log is important. I log everything and I can't count how many times I went back and look in my log.

I predict a bunch of guns will blow up sooner than later...

I just hope this message will save some trouble to some people.

Thank you

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rcmodel
April 15, 2009, 12:47 PM
Good post!

And yes, I noticed! :banghead:

rc

R.W.Dale
April 15, 2009, 12:53 PM
I noticed too.

Couple a blind panic with a tightness in the supply side of the component market and the result are the dozens of weekly "can I use LR magnum primers in 45acp" threads.

My prediction

Some folks will put their eyes out, the govt will feel compelled to enact tighter regulation "for the public safety" and the rest of us will suffer because of it

kelbro
April 15, 2009, 01:07 PM
And they may be at the range, sitting on the bench next to you...

edelbrock
April 15, 2009, 01:15 PM
I am new on the forums and am relatively new compared to some of the reloaders on this forum. I have noticed a lot of the scary things that people have posted and have tried to give my warning as well. If I know the answer to the question I will give my input, otherwise I will let someone more knowledgeable answer the question.
Reloading is a dangerous hobby. One should never think they know it all and can give up on learning. For as long as I reload I think that reloading will be a learning activity.
New reloaders should never turn down free advice as it is offered on these forums. If you will not accept good advice and practice good safety, then you should not load. Go buy factory ammunition and save your eyesight, being maimed, or maybe even your life.
Remember: Safety First!

kestak
April 15, 2009, 01:16 PM
Greetings,

They are sitting beside us. 4 weeks ago, a guy blew up his Taurus 1911 model. When we asked questions, he said we was loading .5 grains higher than the maximum because he wanted +P rounds... :banghead:

BUT THE WORSE!!! He said it was ok what he was doing and the issue was the gun is too weak. :fire:

Thank you

ReloaderFred
April 15, 2009, 01:17 PM
Those of us referred to as "old timers" all learned to reload before there was an internet, and in some cases, before there was a computer, period. We learned by reading actual books. You know, those things printed on real paper, and written by people who had lots of experience and had ballistics labs to back up their experiences. Believe it or not, they still do print books, and the authors are bold enough to use their real names and in most cases even put their pictures in the introductions of those real books.

To rely solely on the internet, where anyone can claim any kind of experience, is at the very least foolhardy, and at the most, outright dangerous. I've seen many postings by people who made it obvious that they didn't have a clue about what they were presenting as fact, yet they posted it as if it were gospel.

My advice to anyone contemplating starting to reload is to turn the computer off and get some of the well known reloading manuals and spend some quiet time reading the front portions of the manuals. That's the part where they explain all the terms and components, and go into great detail on how to actually put those components together safely. You will have to turn the pages by yourself, though. Books don't come with a mouse..

Then, after having read at least a couple of real manuals, if they need clarification on something, then turn the computer back on and ask the question, but have a little knowledge derived from the manuals before they ask the question so they can sift through the "pelosi" (that's the new term for BS, by the way) and be able to tell fact from fiction.

Just because it's on your computer screen, posted by someone using an alias, doesn't make it fact, or safe. That goes for my own postings as well, which I'm very careful about, since I very strongly believe in helping people not make mistakes. But double check all information presented by anonymous posters, period. It always amazes me when someone posts load data, and the post is full of typographical errors and misspelled words, but people take the data as being safe. It may well be, but for heaven's sake, check with known references before using that data.

This doesn't apply to all posts, by any means. My intention is to get people to check the known and tested data before relying on the internet as their sole means of information.

Boy, I feel much better now........

Hope this helps.

Fred

rcmodel
April 15, 2009, 01:30 PM
Reloading is a dangerous hobby.No, it's not, if you do it right. It is probably one of the safest in fact!

I could name dozens & dozens of hobbies that are more dangerous then reloading.

Even fueling your lawn mower & mowing the yard are much more dangerous then reloading!

Storing the lawn mower gas & BBQ propane tank in the garage is far more dangerous then a basement full of powder & primers.

rc

edelbrock
April 15, 2009, 01:39 PM
I meant that it can be a dangerous hobby if you do not follow safety precautions and try to step outside the bounds of accepted reloading practices that have been developed over many years. There are a lot of steps that are clearly laid out in reloading manuals that must be followed.

jfh
April 15, 2009, 01:44 PM
Like the others, I've noticed the influx of new reloaders who are clueless.

Some of us, I suspect, are really scratching their "older" heads, wondering how some of these newbies made it this far in the world--i.e., have not learned basic principles for learning "physical" skills.

Others here--ReloaderFred--have called out some of the tips one can use to develop (reloading) skills and knowledge--and a lot, I think, has to do with people who have not learned to analyze/build/make stuff. Of any sort.

Hands-on work is less and less needed in our typical society--and we have become more dependent on others for expertise.

Jim H.

bushmasterar15
April 15, 2009, 01:45 PM
I'm also new to reloading but will read the reloading manuals before I atempt to start. Also will be asking questions.

lukepriebe
April 15, 2009, 01:52 PM
I plan to start reloading in the near future and I will take all precautions available. My brother blew up a 30-06 when he was 18 because he decided to try something new.

RoostRider
April 15, 2009, 02:00 PM
Did you also notice how many new reloaders are posting questions on THR or firingline?

Nope- I don't get my reload information from the internet.... sorry, but even the experienced reloader could make a typo that would get me killed, not to mention the blowhards and fools that seem to proliferate on the net. I actually have load manuals *sigh*.

I wouldn't trust a net forum to give me advice about a personal relationship, so why would I trust it for advice on explosives/propellants/ballistics that might cost me a few fingers, an eye, or my life?

Did you also notice how many new reloaders are suggesting SCARY stuff?

Did you also notice how many new reloaders are making sloppy mistakes?

Did you notice how many new reloaders reload without a reloading handbook?

See above about blowhards and fools.... :)

Those of us referred to as "old timers" all learned to reload before there was an internet, and in some cases, before there was a computer, period. We learned by reading actual books............

Fred seems to have covered the bases pretty well. Without the manuals to verify, "advice" on relaoding given on the net is dangerous.

PS- you might consider the same logic for other, "less dangerous" advice you might seek from the net.... just saying

Hesenwine
April 15, 2009, 02:14 PM
Reloading is a dangerous hobby.

I'd put sky diving ahead of reloading on the "dangerous" list. :D

glockman19
April 15, 2009, 02:18 PM
Good post. Thanks.

I too am new to reloading. I have all the equipment, two reloading manuals and plan on taking a course at the reloading store at my local range before actually beginning.

I recieved a strange PM from a poster with no history that thought I was "a well informed source" for reloading. I told him exactly what you suggest. Read at leas two books the ABC's of reloading and Modern Reloading By Richard Lee. I also suggested he read the loads that came with his lee dies and to double check it with the loads recommended by the powder he is using in addition to finding a mentor who can walk you through the process on your own equipment. I bought a lot of my sturr from a friensd father, former reserve sheriff who will spend a day with me reloading my first rounds.

IMHO, reloading is serious business and should not be taken lightly.

doorman
April 15, 2009, 02:27 PM
And they may be at the range, sitting on the bench next to you...

With the possibility of chamber and barrel shrapnel moving in all directions.

I have been reloading for about a year and "I am not an engineer but I play one when I reload".

I have read several manuals as per recommendation along with a single stage press to gain a complete understanding of all steps and processes. The people that worry me have zero loading experience and go out an purchase something on the order of a 550B to start punching out as many rounds as quickly as possible.

RU

Funderb
April 15, 2009, 02:41 PM
Can I put 12.7 gr of blue dot in my .45acp reloads? (this is a joke :))

Har. Har.

I imagine the trend may follow your idea, but may not be as catastrophic as you seem to think. If they are asking these questions, such as the above, they will get gnarly mean responses, and then be less inclined to be stupid.

Landric
April 15, 2009, 02:47 PM
One will also notice that most of these new handloaders think that they absoultely need a progressive press with all the bells and whistles in order to make handloading possible.

Of course, some of the old hands (by no means most, and I see little of it on THR) don't help any by posting responses to the "What kind of press" posts with the single sentence "Buy a Dillon".

I won't argue that the Dillon presses are not nice (they are), but IMO any progressive, especially a 650 or 1050, is the last thing a new handloader needs. One can go an entire handloading career without a progressive and be just fine, but they are not for the newbies, especially those without the first clue about the process.

Walkalong
April 15, 2009, 02:50 PM
Well, be patient my friends. They are our future, as well as our present source of frustration.

Lots of good folks here trying to guide them in the right direction and answer some of their questions, all while trying to get them to buy a reloading manual or two. Cudo's to them.

Mentor comes to mind. :)

kestak
April 15, 2009, 02:52 PM
Greetings,

Funderb, you should edit your post and remove the "load" data. It is not safe...:what:

One of those dumb head that do not read well could try it. :banghead:


And end up in :fire: with :evil:



Walkalong: It is why I wrote that "rant". To save the few who want to be saved.


Thank you

Walkalong
April 15, 2009, 02:59 PM
I understand the motive, and it is well intended and admirable. :)

USSR
April 15, 2009, 04:11 PM
My advice to anyone contemplating starting to reload is to turn the computer off and get some of the well known reloading manuals and spend some quiet time reading the front portions of the manuals.

Ahh, but Fred, that's so LOW tech.:( But very good advise.

Don

jmorris
April 15, 2009, 04:25 PM
I too agree with the op’s feeling. I have responded to, in my belief, far too many “how to reload steel/aluminum cases” as well as others that I feel are just as negligent as posting loads beyond published data.

I think you discredit the source when you allow such threads to continue.

rcmodel
April 15, 2009, 04:29 PM
Well, every time we tell some new guy not to bother trying to reload steel, aluminum, or Berdan:

Six more guys post that they do it before breakfast every day.
And have for the last 17 years without a single problem, to speak of!!

rc

kestak
April 15, 2009, 04:34 PM
Greetings,

Maybe this is "quite" subjective, but when a poster answers me and he has 1000 posts and more, I tend to give him more credits than a poster with 10 posts.

Also, when 3-4 posters qith 1000s of posts and when I see their other posts, and they make sense and they are of quality (proper English, proper syntax, proper paragraphs and puntuation) and I can verify or they give the source of their information, I give more credits to those answers.


Thank you
I am not born English speaking, so my English is no perfect, but I think it is logical and proper. :)

Husker_Fan
April 15, 2009, 04:34 PM
Hey, I resemble these remarks.

Husker_Fan
April 15, 2009, 04:38 PM
I was just going to bump my question thread. My press (a lee single stage) just arrived today.

I'm starting slow. Single stage, single caliber (.38 spl). I have a total of two bullet types (148 DEWC and 158 SWC), and one powder (W231). Heck, I have more manuals now than componets.

I have more experience with things that can go boom than most, but that makes me respect the process, not be cavalier about it.

Randy1911
April 15, 2009, 04:50 PM
I don't care how much you know, you can always learn more. I have been loading for over 26 years and I still learn something every now and then. And I still ask questions. If I don't know, I'm ther first to say so.

damhans
April 15, 2009, 05:09 PM
I'm fortunate enough to have several very experienced reloaders to ask when I have a question. And besides old timers and books (a lot of books), I have also called Speer, Lee, RCBS, and Alliant Powders. These companies have always been more than happy to try and answer my questions.

Walkalong
April 15, 2009, 05:20 PM
I have more experience with things that can go boom than mostSounds like you have a fun job. :)

jtuck
April 15, 2009, 05:46 PM
And they may be at the range, sitting on the bench next to you...

That's why I shoot on my property and not a public range. My sympathies to those of you who do not have that luxury.

MMCSRET
April 15, 2009, 06:50 PM
Book; Idon need no stinking book.

GaryL
April 15, 2009, 07:33 PM
I'd like to emphasize that cross-referencing is very important. Always look up multiple sources when starting a load. Even the best manuals can have typos. And some manuals list starting loads near the max load of another reference with the same components and powder - a clear indication of the myriad variables that determine the pressure a given load will generate.

(Yes it was alluded to in a couple earlier posts - just wanted to point it out more clearly)

Rodentman
April 15, 2009, 07:48 PM
Yeah the books aren't consistent.

Speer #14 lists for .40 S&W 180g FMJ:

Power Pistol start 6.2 max 7.2
Unique start 6.0 max 6.7
Bullseye start 4.9 max 5.5

Lyman 3rd edition lists for 180g JHP:

Power Pistol start 6.0 max 6.7
Unique start 4.9 max 5.6
Bullseye start 4.9 max 5.6

That's a big diff in the Unique loads.

And the question of magnum primers in the .40-I ask 10 people and get 15 answers. I am still thinking of trying it after backing down the loads and making sure the OAL is not less than 1.135.

Or am I gonna become one of those newbie statistics. Well I just found out I have a heart condition so maybe it's time to go....:)

adrenalyn
April 15, 2009, 08:43 PM
I read the "ABC's" book and talked to 3 "old timers" before I bought my first reloading press. I practiced what I thought of as common sense and safety in all my considerations. I think its an awesome hobby and taught my 12 yr old son. I also think some people shouldnt reload because they are careless and accident prone. But I think they shouldnt drive either. I guess all we can do is promote safe practices and hope it sinks in.

lgbloader
April 15, 2009, 09:39 PM
I was just thinking, Wow... When I learned, there wasn't computers...

Wholly sheep Dip!!!! I'm getting old...


LGB

Walkalong
April 15, 2009, 11:08 PM
Wholly sheep Dip!!!! I'm getting old...Sucks, don't it. I'm right there with you. H***, if I had known they were going to invent the personal computer, I would have taken typing in school. :)

NorCalRanches
April 15, 2009, 11:53 PM
I'd like to emphasize that cross-referencing is very important. Always look up multiple sources when starting a load. Even the best manuals can have typos. And some manuals list starting loads near the max load of another reference with the same components and powder - a clear indication of the myriad variables that determine the pressure a given load will generate.


Very true. I don't know the first thing about pistol loads, but there is a big difference in many of the books for rifle. Speer's 11 list a max of H335 in .223 as being 28 grn with a 50 grn bullet.
Hornady says 25.7. That is a big difference in a little .223 case.

I worked up my Varget load in .308 Win for the 168 grain SMK using a number of different sources, including Hodgdon, which gives a Max of 46 gr. Imagine my surprise upon buying the new Hornady manual where it says 44.5 is Max! My load is 45 grain, which has shown to be safe in my rifles, but I don't like being over on any of them, just for safety sake.

I've never figured out why everyone needs to load the max velocity possible.

Doug b
April 16, 2009, 12:15 AM
"I was just thinking, Wow... When I learned, there wasn't computers..."


Sure would have been nice though wouldn't it?

dmazur
April 16, 2009, 12:39 AM
...if I had known they were going to invent the personal computer, I would have taken typing in school.

I did take typing in school. My dad insisted on it. He said I'd be glad to have the skill someday. It was with manual typewriters with blank keys. I think I managed to get to 45 wpm, so I wasn't that good. As I remember, there were two other guys in the class. The rest were young ladies working toward jobs as secretaries. Different times.

Since then, I've had to write more tech manuals than I can count. I'm not sure my dad was right...maybe if I couldn't type, I'd have managed to duck these projects. :)

Back to the thread -

I see that the new to reloading "sticky" has almost 30,000 views, so someone is reading it. Apparently not all, as there are some rather basic questions that are answered in that sticky.

I've weighed the fear of steering someone wrong against the desire to help a new reloader and answered a few questions, even though I'm far from an expert.

I have used the Internet to learn more, even though I'd been reloading "seriously" for around 10 years before there was much info on the Internet. Yes, there is a lot of information...but a lot of it is "iffy", and some is just plain wrong.

So, perhaps if all the experienced reloaders keep reminding the new ones that they have to read the manuals, that there are no short cuts, and that's just part of the game, we won't have too many kabooms...

docsleepy
April 16, 2009, 12:42 AM
I agree with your concerns.
I'm a newbie, but have now reloaded 60 rounds successfully, reduced group size by about 50% from $1.50/round store-bought premium ammunition, and completed a ladder test to hunt for a range of insenstitivity to load.

Thankfully, library had a book; internet had multiple sources; bought the Sierra reloading handbook, read the entire chapter twice. Found a step-by-step with drawings on the RCBS site, printed and read/followed; found a "here's my experience" site where a newbie described using Lee equipment -- which helped dramatically in ordering equipment;

and have several available to me to answer questions.

STarted at the ABSOLUTE low end of the Sierra reload book's recommendations for bolt actions with success and triple-checked everything during the process. Very cautious on that first trigger pull.

Biggest scare so far was when a primer got sideways in the loading part on the Lee challenger press and didn't see it and pressed it in sideways.... Nothing went off, it will go in the squib metal box tomorrow at the range, but I had eye and ear protection ON just in case of such errors....

I am ONLY loading one cartridge (.223 Rem) so no possibility of mixing powders, and the load nearly fills the cartridge so double-filling is minimized risk.

I've survived 1,000 of private pilot flying and I intend to surive this hobby as well. Thanks for all the warnings! And ESPECIALLY thanks to the guy who posted a very detailed explanation of exactly why a ladder test for an individual rifle was such a good idea. The data I got demonstrated a distrinct region that would be much better for me, and still well below the max. My ladder test resutls suggest that Rem Preimum Match 223 is loaded way hotter than what I am loading.

gordon

qajaq59
April 16, 2009, 05:08 AM
Unfortunately yes, I have noticed that trait on the forums. And is it dangerous. None of us even has a clue who we're talking to, much less what their credentials are for giving out loads. And you can get free manuals from some of the powder companies, so even if you don't want to buy a manual, it isn't necessary to ask for loads.
My advice for Noobies is get a manual and work up your own loads. It may eat time, but it doesn't eat fingers and eyes!!!

Husker_Fan
April 16, 2009, 09:03 AM
I have asked for loads here, but I will always cross reference to make sure they are safe, and work up to them. It is helpful to have an idea of what works well for others in similar firearms.

kestak
April 16, 2009, 09:08 AM
Greetings,

It is a very safe procedure to cross-reference loads. In fact, each time I try a new load, I check in many books, on handloads.com and ask in a few boards to see if someone else sees an issue.

I was lucky, each time people could confirm it was a good load.

Thank you

greyling22
April 16, 2009, 09:21 AM
and don't be afraid to dispose of an iffy round. no reseating high primers on a loaded round!

Rancho Relaxo
April 16, 2009, 09:29 AM
The good news is that if new reloaders can't find primers anywhere then they can't get into trouble!

jmorris
April 16, 2009, 09:53 AM
The good news is that if new reloaders can't find primers anywhere then they can't get into trouble!

Don't tell me you haven't seen the "Will a large magnum rifle primer work instead of a standard small pistol primer" threads.

Husker_Fan
April 16, 2009, 09:59 AM
The cup is a bit higher, so I use my dremel tool to grind them down.


ETA: I want to be clear this is a joke. Some may be stupid enough to try, and others might think I am stupid enought to mean it.

moooose102
April 16, 2009, 10:00 AM
i think that in a year or so, when ammo supplies return to normal, there will be a lot of reloading stuff for sale cheap. i think that a lot of people bought reloading equipment so they had SOME ammo to shoot. even if they have no idea what they are doing. to some people (who have no idea) it is just dump in some powder, add a bullet and primer, and away they go. i just hope that in the mean time, they do not get themselves or others hurt!

kestak
April 16, 2009, 10:19 AM
Greetings,

Seriously, I use my Dremel tool to put a very small mark on the rim of my 357mag, 44mag and 500mag each time I shot it. So I know EXACTLY how many times the brass has been shot.

I do not trust to put the brass in a container marked with the number of times I shot the brass.

Thank you

jcwit
April 16, 2009, 10:33 AM
If I ground a mark on my brass for everytime I reloaded it I would reach the point with no case to put the powder in.

Sorta like the old west outlaw carving his grips away for everybody he shot.

kestak
April 16, 2009, 10:36 AM
Greetings,

It is a little bit out of subject, but you may have not noticed, but I do that mark only on my magnum cases. Those are loaded very hot (but not at he maximum!!!) and stress more the brass than low pressure rounds.

Thank you

WarHall
April 16, 2009, 11:12 AM
I'd like to thank the various responders to the posts I DID make...And, let you know that without the help of some 'loaned' components, I wouldn't be reloading anything at all! I was one of those who bought a Hornady LNL AP back in December, I wanted to get in on the 'free' bullet offer, which as of yet I still haven't got (1000 .308), But I have more than enough primers for. I also wanted to load for 5.56, which I got only 1 pound of IMR 4895, and it's more than half gone and I haven't been able to get anymore. I shouldn't even have to bring up the subject of small rifle primers! I also wanted to load for .40, and I was able to get an 8 pounder of Unique, small pistol primers and some bullets,but my die set has been on backorder since December 14th!!! I haven't been able to 'successfully' reload anything in any quantity, but I have managed to make in the neighborhood of about 100+ rounds, some .308, and some .223. I was so nervous about safety, I've probably pulled about the same amount, just to check, and being new to reloading I wasn't aware of all the 'stuff' and knowledge necessary to even make a single one.I've had plenty of time to study everything I can about reloading, I bet I have over 50 reloading bookmarks alone, and have posted questions to you 'senior' members several times! So, for all you 'older' reloaders, not to worry, by the time I get tooled up to make my own, like someone said, there should be a lot of reloading equipment on the market, with no components to reload!

AirplaneDoc
April 16, 2009, 11:31 AM
More and More I read a post and think
"You'll shoot your eye out kid"

But on the bright side At least some of them are smart enough to ask questions.

jcwit
April 16, 2009, 11:32 AM
So how many reloads do you normally get kestak?

I have cases where you can hardly read the head stamp because of so many reloads.

kestak
April 16, 2009, 11:39 AM
Greetings,

It depends:

With 44 magnums, after 12 I stop using the case. Sometimes, I get some sign of fatigue after only 7-8 loads. So I discard the case.

With 357 magnums, strangely, with the nickel plated, I can get only 6-7 loads. With the brass, I discard after I have no more room to put a mark on the rim...hehehehe

With 500 S&W, I just began to reload that caliber because my wife just bought a BFR 10 1/2. So, that caliber I do not know.

Thank you

jcwit
April 16, 2009, 03:06 PM
Why would you ditch 357 brass just because you can't put a mark on it. Just keep on reloading it, its still good as long as the primer pockets are tight and there is no splits.

bedwards1
April 16, 2009, 03:31 PM
I reloaded in the late 80s and 90s then quit for 10 years. I recently started again and I got out every book I had and every load sheet and started over just as I had never done it before. It's really something what you forget or loose track of over the years. I wish anyone that starts would get a good book on it and read it all to get an understanding of what's involved. My son wants to start. He is 24. I couldn't keep his attention long enough to teach him so I told him he needed to forget it.

be

Gryffydd
April 16, 2009, 03:34 PM
Why would you ditch 357 brass just because you can't put a mark on it. Just keep on reloading it, its still good as long as the primer pockets are tight and there is no splits.
Or at the very least dedicate those cases to .38 level loads.

Walkalong
April 16, 2009, 03:58 PM
At least.

.357 brass is hard to come by, reasonable, these days.

bunnielab
April 16, 2009, 06:17 PM
As a new reloader I sometimes ask a lot of stupid question.

There are a lot of things that manuals don't cover and I would rather learn from someone else's mistakes.

If people tell me NOT to do something I tend to listen to what the majority says. Now if I am told TO do something then I am much more careful about who I listen too.

SSN Vet
April 16, 2009, 06:50 PM
it's easy as ABC...

I HIGHLY recommend reading the ABCs of Reloading! Great book!

Then STUDY your re-loading manuals and build upon that foundation.

coloradokevin
April 16, 2009, 08:25 PM
Kestak,

I completely agree with you. I also started reloading in the past couple of years, and I've certainly proceeded with caution along the way:

-Read three books cover to cover before I started.
-Read everything I could find on the internet.
-Asked lots of questions, and looked for answers that were common and supported by multiple people (not one Yahoo with a "great" idea).


But, many people seem to just blindly charge ahead! Some of their techniques may be fine, some may be dangerous or deadly!


(As an aside, it is just too bad I can't reload much at all right now... No primers)

philbo
April 16, 2009, 09:44 PM
My favorite are the people who post the same question on every forum, get a dozen responses on each forum that their practices are unsafe, and then one person will chime in and say it's ok whereupon the original poster pops up, thanks them for their advice, and off they go to put their eye out. Rant off.

Alchymist
April 16, 2009, 10:29 PM
Started shooting a long time ago, before Eisenhower was president, and loaned out my reloading gear back in the early '90's. (It's coming back real soon). As to this topic, I find that even after all those years, I must still be diligent in any action I take involving firearms and ammo. I have not yet achieved the fool proof stage......thus I find it necessary to check and recheck.
As the old carpenter said, measure twice, cut once. Double check everything. The life you save could be your own. Just saying .....

jim147
April 16, 2009, 11:19 PM
I had to take a step back for a few days myself from some of the posts.
I couldn't take another mag primer, heavy bullet really fast powder or light bullet slow powder post.
I thought my head was going to blow up.

What a lot of people don't think about is while they may be hurt someone around them may get killed or hurt from flying peices.

Keep asking your questions. Someone will answer them for safety's sake. (rc you have been doing a great job-but I'll still keep loading those steel cases.)

In reading this post I realized that I give out load info that I use that I shouldn't. Most of my pistol powder is 20-30 years old. Things do change. I hope people cross checked and started low and worked up.

I am sure there are a few Darwin Award Winners in making here but please load safe and have fun.

jim

kestak
April 17, 2009, 07:07 AM
Greetings,

I did not see only less safe practice coming up here, but also at the range. Now, we are going to shoot only on Saturday nights because it is quieter. And even before walking inside the shooting range, I ask to the guy at the counter if it is safe. Most times than not, he said to me to wait until that particular shooter goes away... :what:

There is a lot of new shooters with nooooooo idea of the basic safety rules like there is a lot of new reloaders with nooooooo idea of the basic safety rules. I think also with the current level of non-education dispensed in our high schools since 20 years, a lot of people no longer have a grasp on work of quality.

Here at the job, I get many (read MOST OF THEM) E-mails where the writer can't make the difference between your and you're and they think it is ok to write in a business E-mail the "words U and 2 instead of you and too or to. This is not people with no education, they have a high school diploma and many of them are nurses. :what:

Thank you

Bailey Boat
April 17, 2009, 07:25 AM
The "ethic" is missing in most of the new shooters and reloaders. It seems they are just looking for the shortest and quickest way to the end, to hell with what lies in between. I love to teach new shooters AND reloaders but I will beg off from a lot of the newbies that I feel aren't serious about learning how to do it "right". If all you want to do is throw as much lead downrange in as short a period as possible I'll let you slide to the side and be gone. And as for shooting, it only takes ONE slight slip of the safety rules and the party is over and so is our relationship.

kestak
April 17, 2009, 07:31 AM
Greetings,

One thing I should have added: Almost each week now, On Saturday night, I spend 20-30 minutes giving pointers to the new shooters on the line. My wife who comes with me says I am now like those old guys that go to the range more to talk than to shoot...hehehehe :neener:

About 2 months ago, there was that young guy (aroudn 21) who just bought a XD 9mm and he knew NOTHING. Another guy and I spent 2 hours to teach him to shoot and then after that I cleaned the gun with him. I can say frankly, it was a nice feeling to teach him.

On the other hand...there was that fat woman who was a recent graduate of the Police Academy here.... She was not even able to extract a magazine form her Glock...:banghead: (I put the word fat because I don't even know how she passed the PT at the academy....:what:)

My goal is simply to save one life at a time...:)

Thank you

Fat_46
April 17, 2009, 08:27 AM
The OP has a great point, but I don't believe its limited to reloading. I'm neither young nor old, but what I am noticing among nearly all age groups is what I like to call "the Mulligan mentality".
Make a mistake? Take a Mulligan.

Your car reminds you to wear your seatbelt.
Your lawn tractor won't start unless you physically sit in the seat.
Your PC tells you when your grammar or spelling is incorrect.

Notice how almost nothing these days requires any personal responsibility?

Make a mistake? Take a Mulligan

dmazur
April 17, 2009, 05:48 PM
I try to teach "be responsible for your own safety" to new shooters at our range, when there is an opportunity. Not everyone wants to learn, and it can't be forced on them. For the few who seem serious about shooting, I mention that, someday, they may have an opportunity to teach safety to a newer shooter. This usually gets a smile.

This is encouraged at our range, as we have no full-time RO's. Safety is taught as a requirement for membership, and we are "self-policed".

351 WINCHESTER
April 17, 2009, 10:18 PM
I have had 2 people tell me that for loading their .303's they break down 7.62.54r and dump the powder and seat the bullet. I thought the .303 was loaded lighter than the russian round. Apparentely they have been doing this for some time w/o incident, although I'm sure it's taking it's toll on their enfields.

mv_myrx
April 17, 2009, 10:54 PM
YOU JUST CAN"T FIX STUPID! and at my age I am done trying
Earlier this week I replied to a post (as well as someone other than myself who has years of experience ,(who agreed with me). My response was with page and paragraph out of a current reloading manual. The original poster had loads that were outside range limits and wanted some "ADVICE". When given, it was looked upon as merely opinion and wanted to hear what others might think. I am weary of "theoretically" intelligent persons, who, when ask for direction, refuse it because that direction is either inconvenient or just is not what they want to hear.

mark9765
April 18, 2009, 12:08 AM
I am new to reloading. I have asked a lot of "stupid" questions, and I use the internet to find answers to my questions. However, I check several sites including the powder manufacturers site to make sure I am loading a safe round. I don't go past mid range on my loads because I don't have a chronograph yet. I have also set a routine to help keep me out of trouble.
One more "stupid" question: I have only used Hodgdon brand powder so far. Does a reloading manual give better/more information than the reloading data given on the Hodgdon web site?

dmazur
April 18, 2009, 01:45 AM
My information is that reloading manuals typically give you more complete data for their product. For example, the Sierra manual covers almost every bullet they manufacture, but doesn't have anything on cast bullets.

Barnes has data for their bullets, but the powder data is awfully thin (by this I mean they only show a few powders, as that's all they have tested so far.)

Similarly, I've found the Hodgdon site covers most of their powders, but not necessarily every bullet/powder combination.

Nosler showcases their bullets, etc.

I'm reasonably certain this is a lot of the cause for reloaders owning multiple manuals. It's not just verifying loads between manuals...

qajaq59
April 18, 2009, 06:06 AM
If people tell me NOT to do something I tend to listen to what the majority says. Now if I am told TO do something then I am much more careful about who I listen too. Now that's an intelligent way to use the forums.

EMC45
April 18, 2009, 10:12 AM
Reloading IS NOT dangerous!! It is if you're impatient, reckless, and don't take necessary precautions. If you can read and have common sense this hobby is perfectly safe. I have never had a blow-up or squib and I pulled the handle on a press for the first time in 1998. I too have seen a large influx of new reloaders recently. They will do reckless things that are dangerous too. Not all of them, but some will. When ammo prices start coming back down and new reckless reloaders start blowing up guns I think we will see a good bit of used gear on the market. I can't wait!

Redneck with a 40
April 18, 2009, 10:24 AM
I taught myself how to reload, back in 2005. I read Richard Lee's "Modern Reloading 2nd Edition", awesome book. I learned what the process was and studied the load data carefully. I paid particular attention to my charge weights and bullet seating depth's. After I loaded my first 100 rounds, I had it down pat and was churning out rounds. I've now loaded about 7500 rounds of 40 S&W, 1000 rounds of 357 mag, 500 rounds of 38 special, I've had no problems whatsoever. You just have to pay attention to what you're doing, no distactions, such as a T.V.

Now the guys who look at a max charge in the book and say, 'If 8 grains behind a 150 grain .40 bullet is good, then 8.5 must be better". These guys are the true idiots.

evan price
April 18, 2009, 10:44 AM
AN ABJECT LESSON which is apt to this post:

Yesterday I just bought a Sig P6 pistol from a guy at the range. He said he bought it and started reloading 9mm. It shot fine for several months. Then he had a jam (FTE). Now it won't cycle and jams after every shot- you have to bang the back of the slide to get it back in battery.

He sold it to me for no more than what the magazines are going for on Gunbroker calling it a POS of the worst degree. Seems he read the INternet where they don't like to feed certain kinds of ammo and thought that was the problem.

Turns out what he'd done is rapid-fired a squib followed by a good round and bulged the barrel to the point the bulge hangs up inside the slide on the feed ramp.

To put it mildly, I strongly advised him to check his reloading practices- to which he told me huffily, he's been reloading for TWO YEARS NOW and doesn't make mistakes, his Glock has had no problem with his reloads.

I paid the man and bid him good day.

qajaq59
April 18, 2009, 12:43 PM
I learned how to load from a friend in the sixties and I've never had a problem. Someone already has worked everything out for us, so simply follow the :cuss: rules.

It is sooooo easy that I can't figure out why people can't handle it? :banghead:

Maybe the comedian is right, "There ain't no cure for stupid."

Hungry Seagull
April 18, 2009, 01:28 PM
After careful consideration, I thought about reloading.

I determined to stick with factory loads because no amount of books, data and learning plus all the equiptment will compenstate for how well my weapons are shooting factory loads.

I dont have a problem with Colonial Flintlocks or Percussions of the Civil War era.

My position is I will leave the reloading to those who know better and know how to do it right.

Maybe one day I will learn. Just a little for the modern stuff. But only just enough if there is no more factory availible.

ADKWOODSMAN
April 18, 2009, 01:53 PM
Having just read ALL the posts in this thread I can only add, check, check, and check again.

I like the Lyman Manual because it lists different bullets for the same calibre.

The powders are also from different manufactures, another plus.

I've been loading rifle, pistol and shotgun since he 60's and still learning.
RDH

EMC45
April 19, 2009, 03:22 PM
Read, read and read some more. I have about 8 reloading manuals and I re-read them all the time.

CSA 357
April 19, 2009, 04:10 PM
When i started reloading i had a buddy that had been loading for years, he helped me get started, showed me all i needed to know, you have to know what you are doing, you have to have a reloading book, read all you can, take your time, i now enjoy reloading as much as shooting, and i cast my own bullets, i try to help anyone who wants to learn, i once thought it was about saving $ but now i know its a past time of its own, if someone hadnt taken the time to help me i would have never got started on my own, its not rocket science, but you have to do it right, i cant wait to get my grandson started, csa

kestak
April 2, 2010, 07:38 AM
Greetings,

Remember this thread I started a little while ago? Am I alone to have noticed in the last 2-3 months our "newbies" sound better and more informed wih their few first posts? In fact, I am VERY surprised not to have seen "I just blew up my gun (or face)" messages... hehehehe

Thank you

smokey262
April 2, 2010, 07:53 AM
They are not even scared that they are handling explosives and they create a small explosion in their hand...


Technically speaking this is not true. It is not an explosive, and is not exploding, it is burning really really really fast

mongoose33
April 2, 2010, 08:02 AM
In fact, I am VERY surprised not to have seen "I just blew up my gun (or face)" messages... hehehehe

I know it's a jest, but there's truth in the old adage, "Dead men tell no tales."

I suspect there are a lot of kabooms that never are chronicled here out of embarrassment.

I believe the only people likely to post about mistakes are those interested in helping others learn from them. There's a...sincerity, I suppose, in those who would expose themselves to potential ridicule solely to hopefully help someone else avoid the mistake.

I *always* read those threads.

kestak
April 2, 2010, 08:06 AM
:DGreetings,

I exposed myself to ridicule with my blunder of lubing my rifle cases only just under the shoulder...:what:

I still can't believe I decaped/resized more than 8000 cases like that. I had 3 decapping dies running because I was getting "scratches" after 150-200 cases. One week later, 500 cases: no scratches at all!! :banghead:

If I ever blow a gun, I'll post the pictures, how I did it, I'll try to make it a sticky and I'll try to change my ID from Kestak to Kestak_who_blew_a_gun so everyone knows and will avoid to make my mistake. :D

Thank you

mongoose33
April 2, 2010, 08:48 AM
The internet has greatly accelerated my learning about reloading. I've only been doing it for about 19 months. One thing's for sure: I'll never know enough that I can't learn more about it.

I believe I am far along in that learning process, and I credit the internet for that. However, I also believe there is a way to use the internet effectively for learning, and many newbies (as evidenced by some of the horror stories of arrogant, self-confident rookies) don't have a clue how to do that.

I'm a scientist by training; everything I read I take as a hypothesis to be either supported or refuted by further information. If someone posts a load, I check it against other sources (including those in print) to confirm that it's reasonable before I start working up my own loads. If someone posts a fix, I'll try to confirm it against other sources and/or experimentally evaluate it myself.

It amazes me (though perhaps it shouldn't) that some people don't operate the same way. Especially newbies, for whom mistakes are sometimes not clearly mistakes (until kaboom).

[Post interlude: I learned as is generally suggested: ABCs of reloading, read reloading manuals, and so on. Some of the willingness to read books is, I think, generational; older people who didn't grow up on the internet do that as a matter of course. Younger reloaders, not so much (yes, there are exceptions).}

So the internet is taken by some as gospel, but as others pointed out in this thread, it's the internet, and nothing prevents anyone from posting anything they like, right or wrong. (An example: Pi = 3.41)

The internet *has* accelerated my learning greatly; youtube videos can be excellent at times. And the ability for us to have knowledgeable others post potential answers to problems and questions we post online is priceless.

But it is just the internet, not the infallible-net.

Since I began my learning w/o anyone to show me how, I was doubly blessed--not only by the ability of the internet to show me things I otherwise wouldn't have been able to see, but also in providing a source of help.

But in the end, I believe many newbie reloaders miss the fundamental goal in their haste: It's not about what they can do today or tomorrow that matters; it's what they'll know--and can do--six months from now that matters.

And if they focus on a longer time horizon, they'll double- and triple-check everything; when something doesn't feel right they'll find out why and won't proceed until they do; and their focus will be just as much on the process as it is the outcome.

ranger335v
April 2, 2010, 09:01 AM
"Did you notice how many new reloaders reload without a reloading handbook? ... There is one who answered to me saying he does not need to read anything or to have a log book because he just have to check on Internet. Doh!"


What you are seeing is a logtical effect of "modern education"; every one is brilliant, everyone makes his own "truth." Many of them will eventually be Darwin Award contenders, one way or another when they remove themselves from the gene pool.

It's not wise to discount or accord respect to any poster based on his post count. I've seen some really intelligent suggestions from web newbies and some really dumb suggestions from several with thousands of posts. Better to appraise each suggestion by the rational content of what's said, not how often the poster may have said it; some of the most vocally confident amoung us are also the most wrong.

vlady
April 2, 2010, 09:38 AM
Thank you for posting this. I receive multiple calls every day asking for load data from new reloaders. We plainly show on our website that we do not provide that information. However, that doesn't stop them from calling and asking. When I do receive one of those calls, I direct them to their powder manufacturer's data and to this forum.

Thank you to the THR forum members for generously sharing what you have learned over the years.

speedreed
April 2, 2010, 09:44 AM
Reloading CAN be a dangerous hobby. Just yesterday I was repairing my reloading station, casually brushed off the sawdust, and got a deep splinter in my thumb. It is now infected.

Seriously, Ranger335v just beat me to a post about modern education. My wife is a teacher, and she said there is a push to use "discovery" instead of traditional pedagogy. Hence the "everyone makes his own truth". The really sharp students can benefit from this, but not-so-sharps don't learn a thing.
They wait for someone else to do the work, and then they copy the answer. It's the quickest and easiest means to an end. She is working on a doctorate, so hopefully she can get in a position to turn some this around.

Now to see if my resident Doctor can remove a splinter!

helg
April 2, 2010, 09:59 AM
Did you also notice how many new reloaders are suggesting SCARY stuff?
I would like to see links to support the statement. At the forum it is easy to refer exact posts. 4 pages at this thread do not show any of these yet.
Buy reloading books
What data in a book is not available online, on bullet/powder manufacturer web site? Error in a book is uncorrectable, that is why you have to collect many editions. At the other side, typos in online data, once detected, can be easily corrected.

bds
April 2, 2010, 10:54 AM
Remember this thread I started a little while ago? Am I alone to have noticed in the last 2-3 months our "newbies" sound better and more informed wih their few first posts? In fact, I am VERY surprised not to have seen "I just blew up my gun (or face)" messages... hehehehe

Thanks for the great thread and yes I have noticed too ...

USSR
April 2, 2010, 12:08 PM
...I am VERY surprised not to have seen "I just blew up my gun (or face)" messages...

For the most part, it is pretty tough to blow up a gun. There is a pretty large margin from SAAMI maximum pressure spec's to metallurgical destruction pressures. Of course, there is the occasional "perfect idiot" that keeps us all in amazement.

Don

kestak
April 2, 2010, 12:15 PM
Greetings,

USSR, I disagree... :rolleyes:

We have an idiot at the club who is at his 5th gun blow. I am aware of 3 1911, 1 7mm and 1 HK. When he goes behind the glass to shoot, we all get out.

Thank you
P.S.: For those of you who doubt me, I swear on the grave of my ancestors this it true.

mcdonl
April 2, 2010, 12:38 PM
As a new reloader I find this thread a little offense, although I am easily offended.

I come here for advice, and I take the advice. Problem is people have various opinions. Even the experienced re-loaders.

So, when I load 9mm loads with magnum primers some of you (Who I respect a lot) tell me it is dangerous and do not do it, and others of you (Who I also respect a lot) tell me that starting with the minimum loads and work my way up is completely safe. It was, by the way.

So, even though some new loader does not follow **YOUR** advice to the letter, does not mean they are not well informed and safe.

bds
April 2, 2010, 12:40 PM
I have seen several guns blow up the past 15 years, but not necessarily by idiots. On two occasions, it was by experienced reloaders who accidentally double-charged their loads.

This is the reason why the guy who taught me to reload recommended I start out on a progressive for match shooting. The auto index feature on the progressive press helps with this because to double charge, you have to intentionally turn back the shell plate and re-charge the case.

I still have all of my fingers and have not had to change my underwear. :D

mcdonl
April 2, 2010, 12:42 PM
Ranger Said: "Did you notice how many new reloaders reload without a reloading handbook? ... There is one who answered to me saying he does not need to read anything or to have a log book because he just have to check on Internet. Doh!"

I have three books, and have NEVER found a load that applies to the supplies and materials I am using. I am not saying that it is wrong to buy books, the ABC's and Lyman 49th are the BEST reloading things I own, but they have been a vauge guide at best when it comes to finding loads to match my own materials. (And I am not just referring to Magnum primers in non magnum loads... I load 9mm, 38/357, 7.63x39, 7.62x54r and have not found a single load that uses my powder, projectile combo in any of them.

kestak
April 2, 2010, 12:48 PM
Greetings,

I have 4 books and EVERY one of them was useful for my reloading recipee. Of course, some components may change, but the recipees in the books are to be used as a "guide". It is why they have a range of powder load.

On the 22 calibers I load, I have about 200 different loads, I can say near 30are exactly what is in the books. For the remaining, near 100 have a different primer brand. Foer the remaining, it is just that I use hard cast bullets and 230 grains RN from stonewall is about the same than 230 grains from missouri pressure wise if I am NOT loading max powder.

And BTW, in the reloader magazine there was a test a few years ago about magnum primers vs normal primers and they showed pressure variances up to dangerous levels. Conclusion: they said use what the manufacturer says. It is your gun and your fingers...

Thank you

bullseye308
April 2, 2010, 12:48 PM
speedreed, I'm very sorry to hear of your reloading related injury and wish you a complete and speedy recovery.

Best wishes,
bullseye308


The biggest problem for most new reloaders is that they just don't get enough info when they get started. They don't know just how much they don't know that they need to know. They don't know that there are forums like this one that can help them. They don't know to check the mfr's website to get load data. Think of all the stuff a newbie doesn't know and it is amazing there aren't more horror stories around. Some folks just will not allow themselves to be helped, but thr largest % will welcome any help given.

Your job, should you choose to accept it: Find those newbies and provide them quality instruction, safety guidelines, point them to whatever resources that will help them, make them read and ask questions, then shoot in the lane next to them with no fear. This message will self destruct in 10, 9, 8....

mcdonl
April 2, 2010, 12:57 PM
And BTW, in the reloader magazine there was a test a few years ago about magnum primers vs normal primers and they showed pressure variances up to dangerous levels. Conclusion: they said use what the manufacturer says. It is your gun and your fingers...

OK, here is a prefect example of what I was talking about. Some very well respected people on this board, in my opinion THE reloading authority said that starting with the minimum load and working my way up would be safe.

I studied Pressures (I even delved into the PSI vs CUP discussions....) looked in all of my books, and all of the resources. Determined that my guns (All of which are rated for +P loads) would safely handle the magnum primer. Not even close on the 38/357

So, you wouldn't do this but to infer that I do not care about my fingers and that I am taking a risk is like saying... you shouldn't ride a motorcycle because you could get hurt.

All of the loads that I run through my 9mm's are well under the maximum pressures that my guns will handle, and to be perfectly honest I have one load that I cannot match the accuracy on and it is with magnum primers. I may be a new reloader but I am not going to do something that will put myself at risk. But, I am willing to think outside the box a little and experiment in a safe way. I did, it was successful and I would recommend it to anyone who asked.

bds
April 2, 2010, 01:01 PM
I have three books, and have NEVER found a load that applies to the supplies and materials I am using

When I started reloading, this was the case for me too. I asked my reloading mentor who taught me to reload about this and he politely told me, "If you are not a chef, just follow the recipes - Once you become a great chef, you can make your own recipes." After 15+ years, I am nowhere close to making my own reloading recipes.

The published load datas exist because of extensive testing done by manufacturers they deemed to be safe at the advisement of their technical engineers/legal counselors. Other bullet/OAL/powder/primer combinations may work out ok, but then YOU become the tester risking YOUR equipment and body parts.

Over the years, I have made many mistakes and still do (I am human). I had too many, "Boy, that was close" moments so I do not push my loads past the published max data (powder charge and OAL). I have seen many others who try to do the superhuman feats only to see their guns in pieces and hands/arms injured (some permanently).

Shooting and reloading is a fun enjoyable hobby. Stay within the published data and it will continue to be fun and enjoyable. YMMV

What data in a book is not available online, on bullet/powder manufacturer web site? Error in a book is uncorrectable, that is why you have to collect many editions. At the other side, typos in online data, once detected, can be easily corrected.
I keep my own master load data table of "pet load" recipes for components I use regularly. I update this table based on several references in print and online manufacturers' websites. When I come across new load data that is different than old data, I consider the option that the powder manufacturer may have modified their powder recipe and reflect the updates in my own table (better to error on the side of safety).

mcdonl
April 2, 2010, 01:17 PM
Great post BDS...

I am not a great chef, but I am smart enough to understand when you can add a slice of ham to a grilled cheese :)

Tilos
April 2, 2010, 01:42 PM
A local guy gives classes once a month and is booked way ahead.
He charges about what 2 boxes of ammo costs and you load a box of ammo for yourself during the class!
His hand-out info is worth the price of the class.
He now has broken it into two classes, one for rifle, one for pistol.

ATTENTION FELLOW RELOADING GEEZERS:

Think about starting your own business and doing this;)
Get out of the rat race and do something you enjoy.

Sorry, I didn't read the 5 pages of post in this thread so apoligize if it has been said before.

Tilos

mcdonl
April 2, 2010, 01:50 PM
Tilos, thats awesome!

A guy around here (Southern Maine) gives a class, but he charges $250 and you get to take away one box of 50 rounds. I would have done it if it were much cheaper.

I am a good self learner, well versed in the search button and like to ready charts and graphs but taking a class would have been cool.

There are also many good video's on Youtube... I mean there is a video of a guy sticking 16 quarters in his nose on youtube too, so it is not always a good source of ideas but some of the stuff on there is good :)

helg
April 2, 2010, 02:07 PM
What data in a book is not available online, on bullet/powder manufacturer web site? Error in a book is uncorrectable, that is why you have to collect many editions. At the other side, typos in online data, once detected, can be easily corrected. I keep my own master load data table of "pet load" recipes for components I use regularly. I update this table based on several references in print and online manufacturers' websites. When I come across new load data that is different than old data, I consider the option that the powder manufacturer may have modified their powder recipe and reflect the updates in my own table (better to error on the side of safety). I use QuickLoad as a master source of data, and check that the data are adequate against online data when starting new powder or new caliber. According to the OP, I am doing wrong, as I do not have reloading manuals. What danger should I be worried?

DRYHUMOR
April 2, 2010, 02:42 PM
I was shooting next to a guy years ago in a match, that had a minor "expolsion" within his M1a. He was a reloader, prob a primer out just a pinch too far.

He ended up with a patch on his eye and did not finish the match. He was lucky in that he was wearing his safety glasses at the time. He could have been blinded.

He was an experienced reloader, and he was careful, and still he got hurt.

Something to think about.

bds
April 2, 2010, 04:42 PM
helg - I use QuickLoad as a master source of data ... According to the OP, I am doing wrong, as I do not have reloading manuals. What danger should I be worried?

helg, I think as long as most current load data is used, that's fine. My own pet loads were based on older "paper" references long before the online factory references were available. They are now updated with information from factory online websites. You gotta love the computer and internet - all the reloading load data at your finger tips. :D

ranger335v
April 2, 2010, 07:45 PM
"He was an experienced reloader, and he was careful, and still he got hurt."

Experience is a vague thing. I know some guys who have ten years of experience, some others who have six months of experience they've repeated twenty times; meaning experience only helps if we are thinking and still learning.

Many of those who've cranked out thousands of rounds of the same load on a progressive for years may have no more understanding of what they're doing than some curious newbies who've only reloaded for a year. No "careful" reloader is going to need a patch for his eye from a slam fire.

bds
April 2, 2010, 07:50 PM
Knowledge is gained from experience.

Experience is gained from making many mistakes and lived to tell about it.

Mistakes are made when you don't have enough knowledge.

It's the circle of reloading life. :D:D:D Life is too short for me to reinvent it - it's much safer and faster to adapt knowledge and experience of others so I don't have to make the same mistakes ... isn't that one of reasons why THR exists?


Darn, my dog just gave me that "Huhhh???" look. :uhoh:

USSR
April 2, 2010, 08:16 PM
Experience without common sense and intelligence is meaningless. I know a guy with more than 20 years experience that lacks both and is a constant danger to himself IMHO.

Don

Ateam-3
April 2, 2010, 08:30 PM
I think this is a great thread that has spurred a lot of thought and many replies. There has been a wealth of good information brought here. I have been reloading for 30+ years so I am not 'fresh off the turnip truck'. Even so, I do not think I know everything and I still learn new things daily. I like to think that there are safety considerations made for the likelihood that people may substitute components as they choose. While I do not advocate deviating from the recipes that are published, careful substituting and load development does occur at many reloading benches. This contributes to our 'pet loads' that we lay claim to.

Whether new to the game or experienced, I think it is crucial that we maintain our diligence in checking and rechecking throughout the handloading process. Knowledge and experience both contribute to our many successes with handloading, but they are not the only parts of the equation. I think we must maintain our attention to detail and minimize our distractions. After all, someday we might be introducing others to this element.

DIM
April 2, 2010, 08:42 PM
Anyone wants to make quick money, then publish Handloading for Dummy's, hey look you might be next millionaire ;-) and I will sue you since idea was all mine :-D

BeerSleeper
April 2, 2010, 09:19 PM
Anyone wants to make quick money, then publish Handloading for Dummy's, hey look you might be next millionaire ;-) and I will sue you since idea was all mine :-D

Can I write the Prologue?

"How to write your will, and who should get your guns..."

oneounceload
April 2, 2010, 09:51 PM
As an older curmudgeon who started reloading about 30 years ago, before internet experts, I learned by buying the manual (typically Speer, Sierra or Hornady) and following the recipes. Since we weren't interested in reloading 6 bazillion rounds for an hour at the "spray and pray range", we reloaded on single stage presses, inspecting everything we did as we went along...........and wow, no one I have ever shot with who learned like that has EVER had a problem. We didn't have the internet to rely on, we had published data to work with. We didn't load to shoot 1,000's of rounds per day - we reloaded for accuracy first, velocity second, and quantity wasn't even in the calculation.

We also didn't look at the data and start to think, "how can I make this go twice as fast with twice the pressure"; we accepted the limitations of the cartridge in question, and if we wanted a lot more, we went to a larger cartridge.

I guess, to summarize, for all you new shooters - don't be in a rush to crank out thousands of rounds in an hour, do follow recipes, do pay attention to every aspect of what is happening, don't assume because you read it on the net that it is true - use common sense, stay safe, and you'll have fun.

I have loaded pistol, rifle and shotgun ammo for decades - luckily, in all of the hundreds of thousands of rounds, I can count my "oops" on one hand with NO dangerous issues.

Patience and being methodical pays dividends

stay safe

DIM
April 2, 2010, 10:06 PM
Can I write the Prologue?

"How to write your will, and who should get your guns..."

I know that one ;) my wife will sell them for scrap to the local pawn shop :scrutiny:

shootinxd
April 2, 2010, 10:58 PM
I was lucky enough to have a freind that had reloaded for years,2 books,and this forum to walk me thru my first loads.I will never know all.I stick well within SAFE loads!

jim147
April 2, 2010, 11:35 PM
Experience without common sense and intelligence is meaningless. I know a guy with more than 20 years experience that lacks both and is a constant danger to himself IMHO.

Don

If we could only sell common sense we would be rich.:)

jim

sig220mw
April 3, 2010, 02:33 AM
I know a guy who brags about the fact that he has never read a book.

That's just plum scary and I sure wouldn't ever admit it much less brag about it.

Having said that, as many of you have said, just looking at the internet alone will not suffice. That's why it's best to own 2 or 3 or more reloading manuals so as to have a frame of reference.

I guess I'm lucky because I read about reloading all of the time and I started reloading 18 or 19 years ago. I say I'm lucky because I still find it interesting enough to still want to read about.

If any guys new to reloading aren't interested enough in it to be safe then they should not even try.

I guess they are in too much of a hurry. As some one said in an earlier post, you don't need to worry about volume so much as quality. Heck I never have more than about 20 or so rounds of any of the calibers I load loaded and ready. The fact that I can load more if needed is good enough for me. I'm much more interested in having a sufficient amount of components on hand.

bds
April 3, 2010, 02:47 AM
Buy several books and put one in each bathroom. In a few weeks, you'll be well read. :D

helg
April 3, 2010, 08:02 AM
I know a guy who brags about the fact that he has never read a book.

That's just plum scary and I sure wouldn't ever admit it much less brag about it.

Having said that, as many of you have said, just looking at the internet alone will not suffice. That's why it's best to own 2 or 3 or more reloading manuals so as to have a frame of reference.

I guess I'm lucky because I read about reloading all of the time and I started reloading 18 or 19 years ago. I say I'm lucky because I still find it interesting enough to still want to read about.

If any guys new to reloading aren't interested enough in it to be safe then they should not even try.

I stated above in the thread that I do not have a paper reloading book. It is perfectly clear that 18-19 years ago with no online reloading information, this might be a problem. Though, load data that come with every set of Lee dies even that time, and a technique to work up a load still made the process safe.

Please, tell me, what I am missing with the paper books? What should I be afraid of without the books?

mcdonl
April 3, 2010, 09:07 AM
Please, tell me, what I am missing with the paper books? What should I be afraid of without the books?

Helg, I am a new reloader. Also, like I said before I never never found a perfect match for my materials in any of the books but I stay very close.

I like the books because a) I like to read and b) I like to read in the bathroom.

But I agree, I have never found anything in the books I couldn't find on line, I just like books. :)

we reloaded on single stage presses, inspecting everything we did as we went along...........and wow, no one I have ever shot with who learned like that has EVER had a problem.

Thats what I do. I like to inspect every round. I load more then I shoot, so my output is plenty.

Duckdog
April 3, 2010, 09:23 AM
Now throw in reduced loads for cast bullets and chances are you'll never find enough data, or will you have the exact bullet that is used in the published data. Guys like Richard Lee have been a god-send for calculating reduced loads. Like was said abouth a zillion times before, pay attention and over time you'll learn what you can and can't get away with.

mongoose33
April 3, 2010, 09:31 AM
Please, tell me, what I am missing with the paper books? What should I be afraid of without the books?

Well, let's see: Blown up gun, bulged barrel, damaged fingers and hands, loss of eyesight....those are the things you're trying to avoid.

It's called the internet, not the infallible-net. The thing about printed sources from bullet or powder companies is that they have a clear and vested interest in making sure their information is valid and reliable. When someone puts something into print, the quality-control process can be presumed to be better.

Some random source on the internet? Not so much.

That doesn't mean the internet is useless, but it's better used once one has the experience to tell what's garbage and what's not.

Here's an example. You're aware of Pi, correct? It's the ratio of circumference of a circle to its diameter. And Pi, as everybody knows from school, is 3.41.

Right? Pi = 3.41. Everybody knows this.

That has to be correct, right? It's on the internet, and *I* wrote it there.

Pi = 3.41.

Ever make a typo online? Ever misstate something because you were distracted in composing it? Do you want to place your eyes, ears, digits, guns, and life at the mercy of how focused someone writing something on the internet was when they composed it?

Not me.

The internet is the greatest source of information of all time. It's also potentially the most suspect. Anybody can write anything. Experienced reloaders can tell when something looks out of whack; new reloaders not so much.

So, it's up to every newbie reloader to decide just how much risk they want to take in the reloading process.

Me, I'd rather get it right, even if it takes a bit more money and a bit more time.


BTW: The number I posted above for Pi is obviously wrong. The correct value for Pi, as everyone knows, is 5.347.

I think.

BeerSleeper
April 3, 2010, 09:55 AM
Depends on what pi you're using. 3.41 is cherry pi, 5.347 is apple pi.

3.14 is the average of all pi's. In the absence of an correct figure for your particular pi, averag pi may be used.

Beware the coconut pi. It wrecks all calculations.

sig220mw
April 3, 2010, 01:08 PM
What mongoose said is right on. When I said get several manuals to use as a frame of reference I was alluding to the fact that all of this data is not arrived at in the same location by the same people. Atmosphere, relation to sea level, time of year (winter/spring/summer etc) all come into play with how a set of components will behave when put into motion. Just like all guns aren't the same either. What works in one may cause another to lock up or worse.

I use the internet also for reloading info but not without checking it with my manuals. If it's not close to what's published, I likely won't use it.

Any person can put anything on the internet. That doesn't necessarily make it so. Remember the net is not regulated. Hell look at wikipedia, it has a lot of good info on it but I have also read things on it that I KNEW were incorrect. So how much did I read that was incorrect and I didn't know it.

sig220mw
April 3, 2010, 01:12 PM
Another thing to consider also is that reloading manuals don't go down or crash. They sit there on the shelf ready all of the time.

TexasShooter59
April 4, 2010, 12:03 AM
Well, the value of pi is equal to how many slices of pie I get out of a full circumference. Unless it is peanut butter pie, then the value of pi increases to a value greater than 4.

:)

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