[desert gator]

I recently took an interest in guns, I have taken several classes on them and even got my cccw. I just purchased my first gun, a walther PPS. I am hot now to buy my second gun, so far I have only studied the world of handguns. I have decided to make the step out into shotguns. I figured that I already have a hand gun, so maybe I should venture out instead of buying a second handgun. I have learned that it seems that the remington 870 is the way to go. I want to put one together for home defense. I think it would be more enjoyable to build it piece by piece vs just going into a gun shop and buying it. My question is A) If I did build it piece by piece can you guys point me in the right direction. B) Is it going to come out to be significantly more expensive to build it vs buy it?

[cliffy]

Before it's totally unavailable to American Citizens. Something bad is going on; I'm out of primers - powder - bullets, and I call myself a reloader. At least I still have fishing hooks. cliffy

[Fred Fuller]

Chances are, if you don't have a loooong time to accumulate bargain parts, you'll come out money ahead just buying a good used 870 to start with. Chances are you won't find one on the rack with the barrel you want- I'd advise buying the first good used gun at a good price you come across, then looking for a suitable extra barrel. I prefer versatility in shotguns and would rather keep whatever 'field' barrel (26-30") comes with the gun intact, and then shop for a shorter (18- 20") factory barrel more suited to defensive use.

As soon as you get the gun and make sure the stock length is a good fit for you, START SHOOTING IT. Don't make the mistake of thinking you have to get it "just so" before it will work for defensive use. Your ability to run the gun is what's important, not what accessories it has bolted on or what it looks like. A plain jane 870 in riot or police configuration, or with a smoothbore slug barrel, is all you need for defense, and you can start learning to use the gun with whatever barrel it comes with, even before you locate a shorter barrel.

Of course, you might find one with a short (18-20") barrel to start with- but those are increasingly hard to stumble across these days. Everyone seems to want short shotguns right now.

Happy shopping,

lpl

[Hungry Seagull]

Ammuntion for the 12 and 20 gauges are plentiful.

Find a range to shoot the gun at. Start off with a light load.. say managed recoil or 1400 fps speed. Dont worry about the range, ballistics or weight etc.

You would want a shotgun with a IC Choke (Improved Cylinder) built into the barrel for easy maintaince until you cut your teeth and get into other guns that have removable and different chokes for different shoots.

Whatever shotgun you pick up, make sure it fits your arms like a baby. No need to excessively reach, lean or wrap yourself trying to throw that too long pump or stagger about carrying something too heavy to hold up.

Ignore the marketing splash. Stay away from autos and fancy guns.

Keep it simple for your first shotgun. You will be fine.

And if you like it? Your family might too. One gun might become, two or even three or more. Turn the whole day into a family shoot at the range if so be.

If you fire ammuntion and it ejects ok stick with that ammuntion. Some rounds are not so good with some guns and sometimes one needs to hemlich a weapon to hawk and cought up a stuck shell.

Shotguns are fun.

Remember one rule.

12 gauge do NOT take 20 gauge shells. You can create what is called a 12/20 burst and it will be a tragic day.

Finally but not last, get a recoil pad for your shoulder. It will help. Also ignore the tatically loaded shotguns with all kinds of accessories. Get a simple gun and worry about custom fits later and the doo dads etc... all of that can wait.

Try to get a factory fresh gun for you. Used guns are ok too. Just like a Smith to give em a little TLC and certify them for service again.

[hometheaterman]

If I wanted a pump I'd look at the Benelli Nova and the Browning BPS. I would stay away from the 870 Express. If I had to have the 870 it would be the Wingmaster only and I think I'd look at the other two choices I listed before a Wingmaster.

Have you looked into semi auto's though? I much prefer them. I know some others who like them better and some who like pumps better.

[Rshooter]

Building an 870 can be a fun but formidable task depending on whether you want to go to component or unit (such as trigger unit) level. I do not see any value gained on building an 870 though. I believe from what I have seen that it would be more expensive also. Much different than building an AR. I agree with Lee and would suggest a used WingMaster. I also agree that recently there seems to be a sudden lack of short barreled WingMasters around. Recently you can get some 20" police trade-ins on GunBroker but nothing like even several months ago.

Learn to shoot the bugger too.

[Howaido]

870 IMO. Express, Police, Wingmaster, whatever.

[desert gator]

Thanks for input guys. Why would you not recomend the 870 hometheaterman?

[kb2zya]

get a mossberg 500 and don't worry about jams:neener:

[Leaky Waders]

I'd wait a week or two if you could - another poster is in the process of getting an 870 police version and I'm all excited about seeing his/her review.

As for the express dilemma, I interpret King's polls a little differently. You can check them out. Basically 60% of the guns worked like they should...

If you dead set on getting an express, then just make sure you know how the dealer will fix any jamming issues that you may have to prevent frustration/questions of relaibility in the long run.

Older models shouldn't have this issue - the express used to be an extremely reliable gun right out of the box straight to the duck blind. So, buying an older 870 regardless of suffix shouldn't really matter.

The good thing about 870's are all the after market parts.

If you're open minded about other pumps then a nova isn't a bad way to go. I've had one and it was nice - but I gave it to a brother in law. The BPS is nice too, but has a different loading style that some people shy away from.

I liked my two winchesters when i had them (12 and 20) but there's not as many after market parts as the 870.

Mossbergs are nice too, I have another brother in law who swears by them, but have never owned one.

I've shot ithicas but never owned one either.

Of course all of my experiences are based upon hunting/sports. When I was in Iraq I carried a benelli sbe looking tactical specced out shotgun. The SSgt said, "Do you know how to use this," as he handed it too me. I was like, "I've been slaying ducks with nearly this same gun for 2 years."

[hometheaterman]

Yea it's the 870 Express I would not recommend at all. I can't say I would or wouldn't recommend the Wingmaster as I haven't had one but I've not heard bad things about them. I just think when you step up to that price range there are better guns out their.

The 870 express I had had nothing but jamming issues. The chamber polishing fixed the issue with the pump sticking with 2.75" shells however it still had the issue where it jammed quite often with 3" or 3.5" shells. Even would do it sometimes with 2.75" shells too. It would do random stuff like not catch the old shell to pull it out, try to send 2 shells into the chamber at once(not sure how this happened but it did several times), it would also sometimes stove pipe.

It just had a cheap feel to it, crappy finish, and you were lucky if you got 25 shots off without having it jam at least once if not 2 or 3 times. To me that's no where near good enough for home defense.

I never had rusting issues with mine but it wasn't that old and I could easily see it having issues as the finish is just crap. It wore off easily on the stock and even the finish on the metal had worn off easily in spots.

IMO this is not a quality gun at all and if you read about them they had all kinds of guys complaining about them. For skeet shooting or something it would be fine as if it jammed oh well. However, I don't think I'd trust it for HD.

The Wingmaster is a different story. I haven't owned one but have never heard of these issues happening with a Wingmaster. I just think once you get into that price range there are better guns out there.

In the 870 Express price range you also have the Winchester 1300 which I'd pick over the 870 Express easily as they seem to be pretty nice guns. As well as the Mossberg which while not the best gun out there seems to have a lot less issues than the 870 Expresses.

[Leaky Waders]

I'm not going to get into a big debate about the merits of the express model again...this site is very bias towards anything with 870 on it.

The chuckhawks column is dated 2006, king's poll is recent...60% of the expresses functioned correctly - 40% had some kind of problem. The whole reason to get a pump for home defense is reliability. Not to have to deal with 'certain ammo, or minor jams' in a defensive situation.

I'm not saying to not get an express...I'm just recommending if you do, then you may want to talk to your dealer and work out some arrangement in advance as to what to do should your gun jam up.

[Fred Fuller]

Right at ten million 870s have been produced so far, of all labels and sizes, since they were introduced in 1950.

That's 10,000,000.

How many out of that 10,000,000 have had problems?

Perspective, folks. Please try and maintain your perspective. In spite of the fact that this is the Internet...

lpl

[Leaky Waders]

Lee,

Are you lumping all of the 870's together? There is a vast difference between a wingmaster and an express - I've owned both and still own a wingmaster.

Nevertheless, comparing an new express gun from and earlier era to current production I'd doubt people would choose the current production model.

Like I said...these boards are very bias for anything with 870 stamped on it. "Perspective, folks. Please try and maintain your perspective. In spite of the fact that this is the Internet..."

[Fred Fuller]

It happens that I have more 870 Express guns than other types of 870s put together, and I have Expresses in 28, 20 and 12 gauge- by far more 12 gauges, as there is but one 28 and two 20s here at present. There are Wingmaster- marked Police guns here that date from the 1960s. There are a couple of Wingmasters, a modern Police gun or two. I've been shooting 870s for going on 40 years now and buying my own since the mid-1970s. And I have yet to buy one new in the box.

How many 12 gauge Express guns do I have? Hell, I don't know. A good number, ten or a dozen in various configurations. I have 'em loaned out all over the place to friends and family members, they get package deals- shotgun lessons, and a shotgun. I'm getting another one ready to go out to a brother-in-law right now who has just seen the light and wants a scattergun. It needs its stock shortened, a good recoil pad installed, sling swivels, a Sidesaddle and a screw replaced in the rear sight on its 20" RS barrel. And i need to run it enough to make sure it behaves itself.

I dislike being outright contradictory in general, but I feel obligated to say there IS NOT a "vast difference" between an Express gun and a Wingmaster, or Police gun, or any other 870. This is Internet mythology at its finest, writ large by constant repetition, backed up by anecdote here and there. There are SOME differences, yes, but none of any major consequence. Look- I frankly don't care what you or anyone else believes about much of anything. Your religious beliefs are your own business. Whether you believe in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny is your own business. Whether or not you think Barack Obama is the savior of the western world is your business.

And if you want to insist that 870 Express guns are inferior, I really am not going to worry overly much about it. It's fine with me if you believe that in your heart of hearts. Just please dont try to tell someone who knows better, who has the guns (multiple), the years of experience and the trigger time to back up their opinion.

I've had problems with ONE 870 BARREL hanging up when it got hot, with one load- Fiocchi target loads. Yes, that barrel was on an Express receiver when it started showing its butt. But guess what? That barrel is an 18.5" Parkerized rifle sighted 870 POLICE barrel- NOT an Express barrel. And yes, it happened in the middle of the Rolling Thunder drill in Louis Awerbuck's shotgun class a couple of years ago. Go find my AAR on the class, posted here on THR, if you want to see details.

I started that class with one Express gun, complete with MIM extractor and all the other "inferior" Express parts, and finished it with my backup gun- also an Express. The Internet "experts" will tell you that's not possible, that no mere Express gun could possibly stand up to shooting hundreds of rounds in three days in the hot sun.

Just goes to show what the Internet "experts" know.

By the way, care to guess where that second Express gun came from? I bought it used, in a friend's gun shop in Fayetteville, NC, from a member of a certain classified military organization whose popular nickname starts with Delta. This particular individual was shifting to a semiauto due to on the job injuries that precluded his effective use of a pumpgun any more. It was his personal weapon, and trust me- those boys can afford anything they want. I was willing to give him his asking price for it, which was more than my friend behind the counter could afford to do, so it came home with me. He didn't mind trusting his life to an Express gun, and it doesn't bother me either.

If you want to let the Express mythology bother you like some kind of bogieman, that's your perogative. It isn't any of my business. If you want to insist that Mossbergs are the best thing since sliced bread, that's fine by me. It happens that I'm playing around with a Mossberg 930 right now, and guess what? It locks up like a bank vault on those same Fiocchi loads that gave that 870 Police gun barrel fits a couple years ago. And it doesn't even have to be hot to do it, it seizes up on a cold barrel, every shot, with those Fiocchis.

Please don't get me wrong- you are entitled to your opinions. You are entitled to express your opinions as vociferously as you like, within the rules of the board- you're paying for your own electrons.

Just grant me the same privilege, please...

lpl

[sm]

Then read them again.

[Leaky Waders]

"I dislike being outright contradictory in general, but I feel obligated to say there IS NOT a "vast difference" between an Express gun and a Wingmaster, or Police gun, or any other 870. This is Internet mythology at its finest, writ large by constant repetition, backed up by anecdote here and there."

You're right...I guess Remington just marks up the prices on those non-express models because they put them in a more colorful box.

Again, I never said don't buy an express, just if you do then make sure you've spoken to the dealer about what kind of ramifications will be made if there's a jamming problem. There's been over 40 people so far according to king's poll who had jamming issues. It's very frustrating to deal with the problem after the fact without some prior arrangment. I know this from first hand experience.

But, a chaplain of the 870 cult...a moderator at that has weighed in. He has never purchased a new 870...someone else has already broken it in and worked out any problems long before he's touched them.

I just replied to the posters response with an honest opinion. I tried to give balanced feedback if you reread my threads. But instead, people would rather attack my and my verbage and ignore any personal experiences but their own.

That's ok.

Anyways, I'll be gone this Sunday to help fight pirates. So you won't have to deal with a non 870 cultist for at least 7 months.

- good day.

[Fred Fuller]

Let's see.

If I bought a gun, and it gave me problems, would I keep it, or sell it? Seems to me as if used guns would run a greater chance of offering problems, not a lesser one.

870 cult? Oooookay.

I don't care what shotgun any given person shoots. There are lots of good solid American made pumpguns available, new and used, in production and out. Many are not well known and not resoundingly popular. Some, like the Winchester Model 12, really do have a cult-like following. Why? Because they earned it.

It is a discouraging experience to have problems with what should be a basic simple thing like a pump shotgun. It shouldn't happen. Obviously, it does sometimes. Statistics are interesting things- you want to go by statistics, 100% of the Mossberg 930s I have seen have had problems functioning with at least one load. So that makes Mossberg 930s unreliable, if statistics are to be believed.

New guns come with warranties. Factories stand behind them, to one degree or another. Buying new does at least give you access to that factory backup. There shouldn't be problems with anything brand new, cars, appliances or shotguns- but sometimes there is.

There's nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree, without being disagreeable. I guess we have to leave it at that. LW, be safe on your deployment.

lpl

[hometheaterman]

King I don't remember ever saying the older Expresses were better than the new ones. If I did it was a typo as I wouldn't buy a old or new Express.

You also admit you have jamming issues with your 870 but say that they are only minor. What happens if you have a "minor" jamming issue as someone is breaking into your house who is also armed? Not a chance I want to take at all.

That poll is proof that statistics can be twisted anyway you want them to. Less than 8% said they had major jamming issues they couldn't fit sure. What about the 28.16% that said they had jamming issues with certain ammo. Those are still ones that have jamming issues.

Then the ones that have fixed it. How often do you hear of someone buying a Browning BPS or a Benelli Nova and having it fix it right out of the box to get it not to jam? I don't hear about it very often. The only two guns I hear of it with often are the 870 express's and the 10/22's that sometimes stove pipe and do better with a aftermarket extractor. they don't seem to even be as bad plus no one is buying a 10/22 for home defense. So if it stovepipes when shooting a can or target oh well. Not the same as if it jams when you have your life on the line.

Maybe it was because it was the Super Magnum but it's still a 870 express. Remington should be able to produce a gun that can shoot 3 1/2" shells as other companies seem to have 0 issues making a gun to shoot them. It still had the same crappy finish on the stock and on the wood as the regular 3" express models do and from the reports of others saying theirs are picky about ammo it doesn't seem like the 3" version is all that better when it comes to jamming.

You should NOT have to buy high dollar ammo to shoot in a pump gun. Pump guns are known for shooting anything you feed them and that's why most people like them. You should be able to go to Wal-Mart and buy the cheapest stuff they have and any pump gun should be able to feed it. If it can't I don't really want it. Especially when most semi auto's feed the same stuff fine.

As for the rust like I said I've not had issues however, I could see it happening as I did have the finish wear off in a few spots and I could easily see it rusting. I kept that thing well oiled.

It's kind of like with your Pardner pump gun. You tell us that brand new out of the box it had a problem. Yet after the place you bought it fixed that it's a great gun. So if it was bad when brand new what's to say that same part wont break 2 years from now again? Then you will be out of the money to fix it this time. Sure it may never break again but what if it does and does it often? I just don't see how you can say something that is broken or has needed work right out of the box is a great gun.

If I had a gun broken right out of the box I would not be happy and would not be able to say it was a good gun much less a great one.


As for the moderator as already pointed out he clearly states he has never had a new one. So for all we know it may have already had a ton of work done to it before he got it to fix the issues. I've never owned a used one the one I had was brand new when I got. Or he may have just gotten lucky as it seems like it's about a 50/50 chance you will get a good one.

[hometheaterman]

As for Lee talking about the Mossbergs to be honest I probably wouldn't buy one of them either although I do see a lot lot less complaints about issues with them. I do realize there are less out there too though.

I still say I'd go with a quality Benelli or Nova. Not often that you hear of them having issues.

As I said the Wingmaster is the only 870 I'd even consider especially if it was for HD. I just think once you get into the WM price range you can get something else better like the Browning or Benelli.

If all I wanted to do was shoot cans or maybe even skeets in your yard the 870 express would probably be fine as if it jams oh well. However, if it was for home defense I would NOT trust them. I also wouldn't trust them with hunting as it could lead to a lot of wounded animals if you wound them but don't get to fire off a second shot. Along with a lot of frustration.

[Hungry Seagull]

I feel alone with my Marine Magnum. I suppose we dont have too many issues with that particular model of weapon.

It's all good. Something comes up, Gunsmith takes a look and renders a verdict and how much to make problem go away. End of story.

[meytind]

You're right...I guess Remington just marks up the prices on those non-express models because they put them in a more colorful box.

Pretty much according to the Remington website. The LE and WM models just seem to have better quality control because they are inspected more than Express models are before leaving the factory. You're basically paying for a better finish when you buy the LE model.

http://remington.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/remington.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=26&p_created=954759371&p_sid=PsusVzvj&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9NDUsNDUmcF9wcm9kcz0wJnBfY2F0cz0mcF9wdj0mcF9jdj0mcF9wYWdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1yZWNlaXZlcg**&p_li=&p_topview=1

[hometheaterman]

lol @ mall ninjas not giving Wingmasters their due


a Wingmaster anally RAPES any other pump, especially an OLD Wingmaster. Chances are some of the ones you've "had experience with" were being used and abused before you were born and will theoretically be doing it when you're gone. They're FAR and AWAY the nicest, most reliable pump shotguns

I've never said anything bad about a Wingmaster other than that there are other guns I think are better in that price range. I can't say the Wingmasters are bad as I've never owned one. However, what I've read is all positive which can't be said for the Express models.

[AcceptableUserName]

A Benelli Nova couldn't hold a CANDLE to a Wingmaster...the closest would be a Browning BPS. And even then I think the Wingmaster has it beat.

[AcceptableUserName]

I suspect a lot of the Express's problems are issues solved by ACTUALLY shooting your gun and knowing how to operate it, I.E. fieldstrip and mag tube polishing. You can't give a true verdict on a gun unless you've put at least 500 rounds through it, learned how to disassemble and diagnose "problems" youre having. A lot of these Express issues are probably guns with every tactical accessory in the booik but not a bit of knowledge on how to break in, operate and care for a pump shotgun. Go to walmart and get some 7.5-8 shot in MASS quantities and make that gun WORK. Currently I am a Mossberg guy but I can't really decide. Both guns are fantastic and each have their pros and cons. A well used/maintained Express is a bad ass gun by any means, that's all there is to it.

[AKElroy]

Still I'd say a chamber polishing would solve the problem.

A requirement on any 870, and the reason I don't want one. I borrowed a wingmaster for a dove hunt a few years back, and after clearing FTEjects on every 8th round with a screwdriver I gave up. If you want new, buy the mossberg. If you can find a clean Win 1300 defender, I would take that in a heartbeat. 6 x 3"; 7 x 2 3/4", action is slicker than snot on a glass doorknob. My choice. Does not feel or look as robust as the 870, but it WORKS.

[sm]

Original Post:

First shotgun, need advice.
I recently took an interest in guns, I have taken several classes on them and even got my cccw. I just purchased my first gun, a walther PPS. I am hot now to buy my second gun, so far I have only studied the world of handguns. I have decided to make the step out into shotguns. I figured that I already have a hand gun, so maybe I should venture out instead of buying a second handgun.



Twenty-one feet down the hall is twenty-one feet down the hall, no matter what type of firearm one has, be it handgun, shotgun or rifle. -Clint Smith.

Learn to use the gun you have -Clint Smith.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzXR24J1wgE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw

[BENELLIMONTE]

I would pay the extra money & buy the Browning BPS in 3 1/2". Better gun, better design in my opinion.

[Davionmaximus]

I have second the Benelli Nova. Much cleaner action than the 870.

[rbernie]

Back to the OP's topic - what shotgun for a motivated first timer, for home defense?

I'd probably avoid semiautos for HD unless you're willing to spend a fair bit of time at the range wringing it out with your chosen HD loads (buck and slugs), making sure that it's going to cycle them properly. Manual repeaters (e.g. pumps) are not sensitive to load variations, and so they tend to be recommended for HD use moreso than semis. On the flip side - pumpguns also need you to spend some range time with them, to ingrain the muscle memory needed to pump the action fully under stress. Many new shooters short-stroke the pump action when put under stress.... It's a readily solved issue, learning to run a pump gun - you just have to be willing to put in the practice.

(In the interest of full disclosure - I run a semiauto Browning Auto5 with a 19" barrel as my HD/barricade gun. But I run it just about every freakin' weekend, so I have a pretty good idea of what makes it tick and keeps it tickin'..)

Of the pump actions available, the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500/590 are very commonly sold for HD use. I have standardized my pumps on 870s (I have a handful of Express models and a couple of Wingmasters) because they seem to be durable and well supported in the repair and aftermarket bits departments. Other like the 500/590 and will speak well of them. If building and customizing the shotgun is the primary goal - it's hard to beat the 870....

The Browning BPS is less-used in HD than the Remington and Mossberg - not because it's any less capable but because they're generally shiny and pretty and marketed more towards field/sporting use. Browning does have a matte/synthetic stocked BPS with an extended mag tube that some folks seem to like; it's about $100 more than a plain-jane Express or 500 but less than the 870P. I've been looking at one for my southpaw middle son to grown into; the bottom-eject feature is reported to be very southpaw friendly.

Some folk like the 500/590 and BPS for the safety location (tang vs. trigger guard), and others do not. I throw that detail out as an example of the little things that looking at a catalog will not tell you, but that will make a real difference in how you use it/like it.

In the end, you simply have to find the candidate shotguns and put your mitts on 'em, to see what you like/don't like about each of them.

Oh, and IMO only - 3" or 3 1/2 chambers are worthless for HD use. I have shot a bit of 3" buck and 2 3/4" buck, and for HD use I will not run the 3" stuff. Too much blast, too much flash, slower recovery by FAR, and for no demonstrated need. A good shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber is all you need for HD purposes.

[hometheaterman]

Manual repeaters (e.g. pumps) are not sensitive to load variations, and so they tend to be recommended for HD use moreso than semis. I agree this is how pumps should be but is not how the 870 is. Even the guys that love them and tell everyone how great they are say this. This is to me a problem as pump guns should feed any ammo you through at them not just some of it. This is why I don't think the 870 express is a good HD gun.

[thesolidus]

870 is good.
I bought a Mossburg 500 Grand Slam Turkey and like it.
Paid just over $300.
Not too fancy, solid stock. Screw in choke which is important for my purpose and 20" barrel.
So... I screw in a cylinder choke at home or in the woods and I load turkey, then buckshot. (small critter then big critter)
I can even throw non-rifled slugs if I want.
Screw in a modified and go to the skeet range and dust em. Tough to do doubles with a pump but good training.
Change back to the original 'Ultra Full' and it keeps a tight and deadly pattern with turkey loads to 50 yards.
The short barrel has some limitations but i've taken it Sporting Clays shooting and not done poorly.

Even rigged a detachable sidesaddle and flashlight.

So i can go from a hunt anything shotgun to a ranch gun to a home defense/ tactical gun in a few minutes.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=6&section=products

[mbt2001]

Buy and 870 or mossberg 500.

There are a lot of after market parts for both (Barrels, stocks, so on) so that no matter what configuration you get, you can change it to something different if your needs change in the future.

I would recommend 20 gauge. The 12, while macho, kicks like a mule and since you need time to get set up to learn to deal with the recoil. Make sure the stock is your size, or sized correctly for you or that will just create problems.

[Snarlingiron]

I started that class with one Express gun, complete with MIM extractor and all the other "inferior" Express parts, and finished it with my backup gun- also an Express. The Internet "experts" will tell you that's not possible, that no mere Express gun could possibly stand up to shooting hundreds of rounds in three days in the hot sun.

Mine has. A couple of times. Never had the chamber polished, never had a part replaced. I didn't even have a backup at the time. Lives by my headboard.

As echoed by others, get what YOU are comfortable with. Then, and much more important than which platform you choose, LEARN TO RUN THE GUN.

There is only one way to do that, and it involves buying ammo and range time (preferably professional training)

A good shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber is all you need for HD purposes.

Exactly right.

As usual, you have received some very good advice, some irrelevant advice and some bad advice.

It's usually not too hard to figure out which is which. Good luck on picking your new shotgun.

[hometheaterman]

BTW I never said a 870 wont hold up to shooting hundreds of rounds. Mine would it just would usually jam several times during that. As long as you unjammed it you could keep on shooting.

[jdub102003]

I have a winchester 1300 defender 8 shot 12ga with an 18inch barrel and never had any problems with it there easy to take down and clean and there are alot of tacticool aftermarket parts you can throw on them.

I also have and 870 express and have never had any problems with it either but just because my gun hasn't jammed or had problems doesn't mean yours won't...

[hometheaterman]

How many negative posts have you posted about the Express? I went through 125 of your posts and 37 of them were about bashing the Express. Isn't that just a bit extreme? About a third of your posts are about bashing one gun. You can post 100% of your posts against the Express if you want but I think potential Express customers should know that you hold a grudge against Remington because of your bad luck with the Super Magnum. I think if you look around you won't find anyone else that is that dedicated to any one issue.

Again information about problems with the Super Magnum has been common knowledge for a long time. I knew about it when I bought my Express. You won't find other models of the Express having similar problems. Most people report very good experiences with them.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience but you shouldn't deny others a good experience because you had a bad one.I post a lot about it as new threads about the 870's are started very often and I think the person should know what they may or may not be getting into. You post how great they are just about as often as I post how bad they are.

It's not just me that had a bad experience. Look at the huge % of people that said theirs had problems with certain ammo in your poll. Since you like you use the poll numbers explain that? I will say I didn't vote in that poll so I didn't really hurt the numbers there. A pump gun should feed anything reliably. The 870 Express does not do that no matter if it's a 3" version or a 3 1/2" version. They all have issues feeding various kinds of ammo. A semi auto that was picky I could understand but there is no reason at all a pump should ever have a problem shooting cheaper ammo.

You can argue how great they are all you want and how they work fine if you don't buy cheap ammo.

I think that's horrible. I'm not going to spend a ton to buy premium shells for a pump shotgun just so I can shoot skeet. If it can't shoot the cheap stuff from Wally World I don't want it.

Not to mention most guns I've shot don't have a issue with the cheap Wally World stuff. To be honest 870 Expresses are the only ones I've seen first hand that have had a issue with it.

They are picky about ammo. You can say they are great all you want a but a gun that requires work right out of the box and is picky about ammo is not a great gun imo.

[AcceptableUserName]

Just out of curiosity, how many rounds did you shoot out of your express before you threw in the towel on it?

[ShooterMcGavin]

To be honest 870 Expresses are the only ones I've seen first hand that have had a issue with it.
How many 870 Expresses have you shot?

[mfcmb]

o If you're considering 12 ga, I'd strongly consider you borrow or rent one and shoot it first. I find the recoil to be far too strong, and bought a 20 ga instead.

o Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 series pump-action shotguns are both good.

o I'd suggest you look for one with an approx 18" barrel so that it's easier to maneuver inside.

[rbernie]

If you're considering 12 ga, I'd strongly consider you borrow or rent one and shoot it first. I find the recoil to be far too strong, and bought a 20 ga instead.
The other consideration is the availability of good HD loads. There is not the breadth of buck-n-slug loads in 20ga as there is in 12ga, so it pays to make sure that you can find what you want before you settle on chambering.

I find that the 12ga 'LE' reduced-recoil 00 buck loads are very soft shooting and by all appearances seem to provide excellent performance.

[ChCx2744]

Shotguns are one of, if not THE, best types of self defense firearms IMHO. You should just go to a gun store, gun show or online dealer and buy a nice cheap shotgun like a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870. You could get either a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 NEW AND GOOD QUALITY for about $300-$400 dollars. I think every gun owner should own a shotgun. They are very cheap and reliable.

[TEC]

20 ga. Remington Express Magnum, 20 in. barrel, 39 inches overall length, just over 6 pounds loaded. Tucks away nicely. Easy to load, point and shoot. With proper instruction for the wife and kids, a perfect family-oriented home defense SG, IMO. Me? Let's say I have a couple of other options at hand, too.

PS: For me, the Remington pumps are easier to break down, clean, and work on than the Browning BPS's. Both are fine firearms, though.