[kdw75]

I was reading a piece on the internet about how the FN 5.7 round was so deadly for people wearing body armor because of its velocity which was around 2200 FPS. They satated that because of this high velocity the rounds were only available to LEO and military. This struck me as odd because my Smith and Wesson .460 revolver fires a much, much heavier round at over 2300 FPS yet I have never heard that it is an evil round, dangerous or restricted to LEO or military. So my question is what's the real reason why the 5.7 is so much more dangerous to body armor when it is the same speed or slightly slower and has much less mass in the round.

Keith

[TexasRifleman]

So my question is what's the real reason why the 5.7 is so much more dangerous to body armor when it is the same speed or slightly slower and has much less mass in the round.

Because a few politicians and the Brady Bunch said so.

The 5.7 round that got everyone so upset does not meet the legal definition of "armor piercing" nor is it illegal to own or sell.

FN voluntarily (caved in) pulled it from the market simply to try to avoid more trouble.


There is an actual full blown armor piercing round sold to LE as well but the perfectly legal SS192 round is what got all the attention.

Simply the politics of gun control, nothing else.

[Ruggles]

TexasRifleman is right in his reason he gave. Of course he is from Tejas so I would expect that, but he looks to be a Cowboy fan and that ain't good at all! Just wait till my beloved Oilers come back to Houston......Game on Cowboys!

I am a pretty big believer in the 5.7 as a SD round. I have the PS90 & an AR57, I had the FiveseveN handgun but sold it as I prefer 1911s in handguns. I have around 4000 rds of the SS197 & SS195 stuffed away so all in all with optics, mags and such I would guess I have around $5500 t0 $5800 invested in the little round. It is not magical at all what it is is a good little no recoil shooting round that allows someone like me to get alot of rounds on target pretty quick.

You bring up a good point about the .460, heck I rather take a 5.7 to the chest w/o body armor than a .460 to the chest with body armor I think! Well maybe not but it would be a tough choice!

[eitrheim31]

the 5.7 i think is an over rated round. the only reason it's so popular is the anti's don't like it. the round is expensive because of the monopoly fn has on it and it's ballistics aren't that spectacular.

[Ruggles]

"round is expensive"

$20 $21 all day long from a huge number of places online for 50 rds (top notch factory rounds no less) is not expensive. That is the price range of everything from 9mm, 45ACP to .223 for the same 50 rounds. The expensive ammo talk comes from folks who have done little to no research about the round.

Ballistics are on par with the .22 magnum out of the handgun and even better out of the carbine. The reason that it is popular is that he guns that fire the round are very advanced and very easy to handle. A PS90 carries 50 rounds onboard on a carbine with a 26" over length sporting a 16" barrel, talk about handy. The handgun weighs less fully loaded with 21 rounds than a Commander sized 1911 empty. Pretty impressive stuff.

I really do not care if you don't like the round or the guns but don't spread the same old tired internet lies about it to someone who is asking for facts.

[Revolver Ocelot]

So my question is what's the real reason why the 5.7 is so much more dangerous to body armor when it is the same speed or slightly slower and has much less mass in the round

the SS192 was tested and proven to pierce a iia vest due to its steel penetrator and aluminum core, even with the ability to pierece vests they evidently didn't restrict civilian sales because the round evidently still loacked serious stoping power, or atleast thats the way I'm understanding it.

you can read it all here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.7x28mm

[eitrheim31]

so your paying $20 a box of 50 for a 22 mag when that goes for $60 for 250 in a box....expensive

[jbkebert]

The round is banned at the indoor range I shoot at. They say it is capable of pentatrating the backstop.

[jackpinesavages]

It's different. It is a .224 that you can run out of a pistol with a 20 rd mag, less recoil than a 9mm, and lots of guys are pushin steel wheels @ 100yds with the pistols, no problem. What's the ft/lb differentiation between the 5.7 and a .22 mag @ 100yds?

[Kind of Blued]

The PS-90 is special, and it happens to chamber said cartridge.

You could chamber that gun to fire Twinkies and I'd still want one. In fact... :scrutiny:

[Gelgoog]

the 5.7 is popular for the same reasons that the .50 DE or .500 S&W are popular. Its a neat round that is fired in unique platforms. nuff said.

[cane]

A $100 CZ-52 will also penetrate a level IIA vest.

[Mike OTDP]

I'd like it more in a better platform. The FN pistol is clumsy.

[Walkalong]

Special? I don't know about special, but it a cool little round that has low recoil, is accurate, uses 50 round mags in the carbines, and comes in a couple of cool platforms. I have an AR 57 upper mounted on a RRA lower assembly. Loads of fun. :D

[Ruggles]

"You could chamber that gun to fire Twinkies and I'd still want one. In fact... "

Now that is funny!

"so your paying $20 a box of 50 for a 22 mag when that goes for $60 for 250 in a box....expensive"

You seem to have missed the point, that might be my fault for not breaking it down more. It is a centerfire round that matches .22 magnum rifle performance out of a handgun. Out of the 16" carbine barrel it is vastly better than the .22 magnum.

$20 for 50 rounds of anything centerfire ammo is not expensive these days. It is even a better deal IMO as it is the same ammo one would use in any real world situation where as most of us have "range" ammo and "serious" ammo for most other guns.

Those who understand the round and what it was designed for appreciate it for those reasons. It is not a round that is going to replace the 5.56 or 7.62, it was never designed to. It is a heck of a little compromise round that serves it purpose very well IMO.

The platforms are very capable of putting 2-3 rounds into a target very quickly and accurately. Much more so for me than the 5.56 or 7.62, for that reason alone I choose it to replace those 2 calibers. Regardless of the internet myths 2-3 rounds of 5.7 will take care of most issue pretty well.

[Ruggles]

"I'd like it more in a better platform. The FN pistol is clumsy."

I agree it is a little odd to get use to it but it does shoot extremely well. I vastly prefer the 1911 platform so I sold mine.

[BhmBill]

Ninjas use the F.N 5.7.

[Ruggles]

Even better:

http://www.eliteammunition.com/productDisplay.php?id=EA197

http://www.eliteammunition.com/productDisplay.php?id=EA194

Now this stuff is a little pricey but brings the 5.7 in the same ballpark as the 5.56. They also produce a number of other nice rounds for the 5.7.

[Ruggles]

"Ninjas use the F.N 5.7."

Cool that way when they try and attack the White House they very well will face the same caliber when the Secret Service smashes them with their issued P90s! That is cosmic justice at it's finest!

[Shear_stress]

A $100 CZ-52 will also penetrate a level IIA vest.

Yup, and, according to Brassfetcher's website, the 7.62x25 out of a handgun penetrates more ballistic gel+ level II armor than the 5.7 out of a rifle will penetrate gel alone. I would never argue that the 5.7 is a useless round. Obviously it will get the job done. But about the only things that are really impressive about the 5.7 are the guns chambered for it.

[JImbothefiveth]

I would not want to use the 5.7 as a defensive round. From all of the gelatin tests I've seen the round will not preform to the FBi specifications and leaves a small wound. Probably a smaller wound than 9mm FMJ, which already has a reputation as a poor stopper. And the frangible stuff from elite ammunition would probably be even worse.

I rather take a 5.7 to the chest w/o body armor than a .460 to the chest with body armor I think! I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. The .460 is bigger and has a lot more energy.


Cool that way when they try and attack the White House they very well will face the same caliber when the Secret Service smashes them with their issued P90s! The secret service has the law enforcement-only stuff.

Would I turn down a ps90 if offered one? Of course not. However, it's just not what I would want for self-defense.

[Ruggles]

"I would not want to use the 5.7 as a defensive round. From all of the gelatin tests I've seen the round will not preform to the FBi specifications and leaves a small wound. Probably a smaller wound than 9mm FMJ, which already has a reputation as a poor stopper. And the frangible stuff from elite ammunition would probably be even worse."

I disagree with you on these point. The 5.7 has been and is still in use by many many folks who bet their life on it. Real world performance has been very positive from what I have read. The Secret Service seems to disagree with the FBI test on this as well as they use the P90. I would assume that they kinda know what they are doing when picking weapons to use. The Elite ammo would be very destructive on flesh regardless if penetration test IMO. I use either SS195 or SS197 as I have faith in them.


"I think this is a bit of an exaggeration. The .460 is bigger and has a lot more energy."

Yeah I think I kinda pointed that out by saying I would rather take a 5.7 w/o armor than a .460 with body armor.

"The secret service has the law enforcement-only stuff."

What are you referring too? The SS192? The stuff on the market is just as hot as the ammo the Govt uses. They use the P90 for the platform not the ammo. It's one of the premier PDW in the world.

"Would I turn down a ps90 if offered one? Of course not. However, it's just not what I would want for self-defense."

Great that's what makes the world go round. I have faith in it, would I rather have a 7.62? Sure but they do not make a platform that comes anywhere close to the PS90 for my needs. Although Kel~Tec seems to be trying with the RFB.

[JImbothefiveth]

The 5.7 has been and is still in use by many many folks who bet their life on it. Real world performance has been very positive from what I have read. The Secret Service seems to disagree with the FBI test on this as well as they use the P90. I would assume that they kinda know what they are doing when picking weapons to use. They have access to the law enforecemnt ammoThe Elite ammo would be very destructive on flesh . The problem is it won't reach important stuff. The FBI lost some agents in a firefight where a round went through someone's arm and almost hit his lung. It stopped just short, this was either a 9mm or .38, and so they finally required that a round be able to go through at least 1 foot of ballistics gelatin. The frangible ammo would probably not stop reliably.

If you have legally obtained some of the law enforcement stuff, that's probably a better defensive round.

[Ruggles]

I am still at a loss as to what the heck "law enforcement" stuff means.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/ammo.asp

This is the 5.7 ammo range outside of the SS192 which is the round (no longer in production) which has never been banned by anyone for civilian purchase. The SS195 has replaced it and in very available for anyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERxZrzigoK4

And this from the FiveseveN handgun.....the carbine would be that much more effective. The 9mm has a pretty solid track record and it looks like the little 5.7 can easily stand it's ground against it.

[TexasRifleman]

I am still at a loss as to what the heck "law enforcement" stuff means.


SS190 is the "law enforcement stuff". It meets the legal definition of armor piercing ammo and the sale is controlled.

The Secret Service is using the P90 with the SS190 for some agents in case there is a need to penetrate armor of some kind.

[Ruggles]

"SS190 is the "law enforcement stuff". It meets the legal definition of armor piercing ammo and the sale is controlled.

The Secret Service is using the P90 with the SS190 for some agents in case there is a need to penetrate armor of some kind."

I disagree the Secret Service is using the P90 for the platform it provides not he round it fires. It very capable of being carried and used in tight spaces where other carbines would be more difficult to carry and use and offers a huge advantage over a handgun.

As for the SS190 it has the almost the same piercing capacity of the SS192 which can be purchased here by anyone:

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/index.php/cName/pistol-ammo-fn-57

If fact the SS192 and SS190 are the rounds that started the whole internet / law enforcement myth about the magical powers of the 5.7 years ago. The SS192 is no longer in production by FN.

The ammo being used by law enforcement today is nothing out of the realm of which you or I could buy.

SS195: (A replacement for the SS192)
Bullet Type: JHP Lead Free
Weight of Round: 6.15 g (95 gr.)
Weight of Projectile: 1.8 g (28 gr.)
Muzzle Velocity: P90 (2132 fps)
Muzzle Energy: P90 (282 ft-lbs)

SS190:
Specifications:
Function: service ball round
Bullet Type: FMJ
Tip Color: none
Weight of Projectile: 31 gr.
Muzzle Velocity: 2133 fps
Muzzle Energy: 313 ft-lbs

I can not see how the difference in the performance of these 2 rounds would make the SS190 a very capable SD round and the SS195 less than capable of being a good SD round.

There simply is no major important difference between what you or I could buy and what the Secret Service uses when talking about the effectiveness of the 5.7 as a SD round IMO.