[Moparmike]

I am buying a 10mm Witness in 2 days. I havent shot a pistol since I was 12, and that was 1rd out of a .380PPK.

I have read several threads out there about "You should get a .22 pistol and etc etc etc", and am starting to worry that when I shoot it, it will scare me away from shooting it.

So, how far up that creek am I?:(

[sm]

From the Sages in archives...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63571&highlight=buying+first+gun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=143638&highlight=buying+first+gun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=143009&highlight=buying+first+gun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=143047&highlight=buying+first+gun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=138903&highlight=buying+first+gun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=136745&highlight=buying+first+gun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134645&highlight=buying+first+gun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=129833&highlight=buying+first+gun

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=133091&highlight=buying+first+gun


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=124157&highlight=buying+first+gun

[DMK]

The Witness is a big gun and the 10mm comes in many loads. Unless you are exceptionally recoil sensitive, you'll probably be fine. It's not like you're a brand newbie shooter.

Use light loads at first and double up on hearing protection. I think that the noise is usually the part that makes folks flinchy.

For your next gun I would suggest a decent sized .22 or 9mm for more range practice though.

[Standing Wolf]

I've known plenty of shooters who've done far sillier things and turned out just fine. Personally, I'm glad I started shooting seriously with a .22 caliber revolver, but I'll admit my first gun was a Smith & Wesson Chief's Special in .38 special.

[Moparmike]

The reason I am getting such a large caliber handgun is because opprotunity rarely knocks a second time. This one is going for a good price and well equipped (read mags and BLACK TALONs:D). I have been looking into getting a handgun, and snapped up the opprotunity when it came. Ehh, everything has consequences.

[Scarface]

Dear Mopar,

You've probably made a good buy in the Witness 10mm.

Learning to shoot well with it could be expensive, however. You might want to give thought to a .22 for practice. I bought a Walther P22 6 months ago to unlearn some bad habits I've picked up. I warm up with it evry time I go to the range, until I'm comfortable with my sight picture and trigger squeeze, then I bring out the expensive calibers.

The .22 has been fun to shoot and popular with my family, as well. It's now my wife's pistol.

Shoot well,

Scarface

[P95Carry]

Follow standard practice and i doubt this'll worry you much at all .... just do not be intimidated .... and if the deal is good ... snap it up!! Plenty of time to familiarize and practice........

I concur tho also ... try to find a good .22 perhaps for ''bulk'' ammo consumption ....... the better to refine your handgun skills.:)

[10-Ring]

Take your time, be patient get some quality instruction & you should be okay w/ that 10 mm...it'll be expensive, but it can be done. I'll bet you still get a 22lr for the cheap practice tho ;)

[444]

Don't worry about it.

You are gonna have fun.

[Mike Irwin]

I've seen other people a lot farther up the creek.

You're still within shouting distance of the dock.

Luckily there are a lot of people here who can through you the ropes of sage advice. :)

[GSB]

I usually do start people on .22s, but each person is a little different. One woman insisted on starting with a .40 S&W and got so recoil sensitive so fast she started shooting the ground. I politely but firmly convinced her to work with the .22 awhile and she started doing better when she moved back to the .40. On the other hand, another lady I was introducing to firearms go bored witht the .22 after one magazine and took to the Kimber Ultra Carry .45 like a duck to water. There's never any telling how people will react to recoil.

I'd recommend that if you find yourself getting recoil shy, just stop and dry fire for a while. Try again. If you're still having problems, think seriously about getting a .22 (they aren't expensive) and working on technique with it for a little bit. Proper technique will give you recoil management, and with recoil management comes a sense of control, which yields confidence.

Approach the firearm confidently and you will not flinch from it. (That sounded too much like Musashi or Brian Enos, I think).

[Byron Quick]

Check out the case prices here http://www.georgia-arms.com/

Good ammo. I've been carrying their Gold Dots in .45 and 10mm for years.

[PCRCCW]

Shoot a 454 Casull with hotter loads before you get your 10mm. If you do this...you wont have a problem with the 10mm.. :rolleyes: :D

Shoot well

[Tropical Z]

Youll be fine!
Actually i think its better to start someone out on 9mm or the like as they then expect everything to feel like it and can REALLY learn to shoot a .22lr which you should get by the way.

[Jim Watson]

Best of both worlds.
There is a .22 conversion for the Witness.
Check with EAA
www.EAAcorp.com

A friend has one bought as a complete set, rimfire-centerfire.

I have the equivalent Kadet for my CZ 75 and it is great for cheap comfortable practice.

You will save the price of the conversion in a few thousand rounds, which will go past very quickly.

[Grey54956]

You shouldn't be screwed at all.

This should be a fin gun for you, but I would recommend that you purchase a .22 as well. Ammo is cheap (cheaper than fireworks, actually - when younger, I used to blow up plastic army-men with firecrackers; .22s do a much, much better job). Recoil is practically non-existent. Plenty of ammo choices on the market. The guns are fairly inexpensive as well.

I got a P22 with both the short and long barrel kit. The long barrel is fine, but doesn't seem to be any better than the short, really. Also, the funky barrel weight is kind of crappy. The short barrel is an awful lot of fun. The gun is pretty inexpensive and feels nice in the hand.

Practicing with a .22 is great. Usually I go to the range and shoot the P22 to start, then run the bigger stuff, then some back to the P22.

[Keith]

There ya go - get the 10mm and a .22 conversion kit!

Keith

[longeyes]

There are different schools of thought as to how well skills learned with a .22 translate to shooting bigger calibers. For me, a .22 pistol came rather late in my arsenal-building process. Everyone said I should have a .22 so I finally got one, a Beretta Neos. Yes, it's certainly a lot cheaper shooting the .22. Now if someone could tell me why I shoot my Kimber and Sistema so much better than the Neos...?

[Intune]

Can't he use some mild .40 S&W loads in his 10mm and work up to full-house 10mm loads? White box Win .40sw should be a breeze in your pistol, it's pretty mild in my little G27. Try it, I think you'll like it!

[Keith]

There are at least a dozen different actions involved in shooting a handgun, many of which you aren't even aware of.

While you're concentrating on things like trigger squeeze and grip, you are also subconsciously sending signals to your arms and hands to make minute adjustments to bring the sights to bear, or steady them on the aiming point. Your focal plane is jumping back and forth between front and rear sights, and the target beyond, to keep them aligned. Your breathing pattern is changed to coordinate with the shot. Even your heartbeat is subconsciously noted and put into the "pattern" so that when the shot actually occurs it won't interfere at that moment.

You aren't aware that most of that stuff is going on, it just happens. We lump all of that activity into something called "muscle memory" and when it all comes together, the bullets lands exactly where the gun is pointed.

so... what does this have to do with the subject? Well, since much of this is beyond our control (it should be, or it's a distraction) the only way to truly master a handgun is to shoot lots and lots of bullets until the whole thing enters the realm of Zen. And by "master", I mean place all of your bullets into a tiny little group, quickly, perhaps in poor light, while surprised or injured, etc...

The easiest way to reach that level is with a .22. Even if your wallet is deep enough to afford to put 500 .45's down range at each session, the recoil fatique will probably make it counter-productive.

And again, it isn't about calmly putting a magazine of .40's into a silhouette target at ten yards at the range, in good light, after various preparations, with ear and eye protection, etc, etc.
It's how you shoot under the worst conditions, when if it isn't "automatic" it isn't going to happen.

We all sneer when these cop shootings are posted where they pour dozens of rounds at some individual and miss. But those guys are US! They are the same guys we see at the range, proudly holding up their palm-sized group on the target and discussing it with their friends. They shoot 25 or 50 rounds and go home. Those same guys go out and discover that when TSHTF, they aren't as proficient as they thought.

For $20 dollars you can put a 1000 .22's downrange - and do so without becoming fatigued or getting a headache. It's relaxing, it's fun, it's... Zen. And when TSHTF the guy who shoots ten times as many rounds as anyone else is going to be the winner. And he shoots a .22.

Keith

[Soap]

After you get your giggles by blasting some downrange, try this training technique: Fire 10 rounds live fire, then do 10 dryfire shots. Or you can do 5 and 5. It will help you out a lot in case you develop a flinch.

[Moparmike]

Cool. Thanks for all the advice. I will look into the conversion price, but if I looked in the right place, a used .22lr would be cheaper.

Again, thanks!

[Keith]

A .22 pays for itself, no matter the cost. Every box of .22 you put downrange saves you $10 or so (considering the price of 10mm ammo). Or at least, that's best way to think about it...

These conversion units are a really, really good idea! Particularly, for a DA/SA handgun. The standard .22 is a SA, and the training is not as applicable when you change gun styles with your full sized gun. Remember, training isn't just about the shot itself, you also have to commit all of your particular gun's "drill" to muscle memory. You really should train with a .22 that has the same "heft", the same trigger, the same levers and buttons (in the same places) as your "real" gun.

You will not regret buying that conversion unit! In a year, you'll look back on it as the best gun buy you ever made.

And I don't mean to suggest that you ONLY shoot the .22! Put a brick (500 rounds - $10) of .22 downrange, then pick up your 10 and shoot it as well. Every time.

Keith

[Keith]

Just a thought - or just to beat a dead horse...

500 rounds (a brick) of .22 costs $10. 500 rounds of 10mm will cost something like $100. How many bricks would you have to shoot to cover the cost of the conversion unit if each brick saves you $90?

And if a train leaves Chicago at 200 miles per hour carrying a Rabbi, a hooker and a dead horse...

Keith

[kentucky bucky]

A new pistol is a happy event, lighten up and have fun..........how bad could it be????;)

[Sean Smith]

Can't he use some mild .40 S&W loads in his 10mm and work up to full-house 10mm loads? White box Win .40sw should be a breeze in your pistol, it's pretty mild in my little G27. Try it, I think you'll like it!

DO NOT fire .40 S&W out of a 10mm autoloader. That is truly a dumb idea. At best you will have horrible accuracy and prematurely break your extractor. At worst, you will blow your gun up.

Just use light 10mm loads and work your way up.

[Johnny Guest]

Mike, your sig line indicates, "Webmaster, Arkansas Rifle & Pistol Association." This indicates to me that you know a bunch of people in the various segments of the shooting community. How about getting hold of someone who shoots a lot of small bore pistols and just explain the situation?

Anyone who goes to the range regularly would probably be very happy to meet you there some time and let you shoot his/her .22 auto pistol, to let you get the basics down. You can shoot a LOT for a ten dollar bill's worth of rimfire. This would allow you to ease into pistol shooting, cheaply and without any sort of trauma.

If you've been reading on this forum very much at all, you'll know that the 10 mm auto is a rather powerful handgun. Even the best and most experienced shooters are subconsciously influenced by this sort of information. If you can learn about proper handgun gripping and trigger squeeze while shooting the smallbore, you may save development of some bad habits. I think this is much better than trying to UNLEARN improper procedure.

In any case, best of luck to you.
Johnny

[Bruce H]

What I like about the .22 conversions instead of another pistol is the same feel. I did put a heavier recoil spring in my Witness. It was beating pretty hard with a stock spring and good handloads. Installed a 22lb wolf. Runs fine and the slide doesn't slam back as hard. Give serious thought to the .22 conversion. These pistols have a very good grip angle.

[NewShooter78]

I've also hear all the talk about learning with a .22. I plan on getting a conversion unit for my gun so I can save on the cost of ammo. Shooting is fun, and the cheaper it is for me, then its better. Plus your time at the range will certainly last longer, and if you don't pay by the hour then that is a big plus.

But I learned on a .40s&w, and I can't say that it created any bad habbits, but it took a while to get something resemling a group instead of holes all over the place. :D My first bunch of targets could have been 00 buckshot at about 20 yrds with no choke out of an 18" bbl for all anyone knew. But I had fun and got better, so I don't think I am any worse off.

[Intune]

DO NOT fire .40 S&W out of a 10mm autoloader. That is truly a dumb idea.
That's why it was phrased as a question, O wise one. Or did you miss that aspect in your derogatory haste? I forgot that it was not a revolver he was referring to so you can now add inattentive to dumb. Retarded might be right on the tip of your tongue if you read any of my other posts.

[CZ52GUY]

...I have found that with focus and the right frame of mind, recoil can be controlled.

Don't let the 10mm give you any crap. You're the boss. Go into the shooting session with that attitude.

Take your time. Be patient, good results will come with practice.

At the same time, expect good results. Each shot, visualize hitting the target EXACTLY where you want it to go.

Do not be discouraged if you don't clean out the X-ring on your first string, or your tenth...

Consider getting some snap caps (dummy rounds) and doing some dry firing ahead of the first live fire session. Watch your hand placement on the piece. Make sure you are comfortable with the slide action...how you insert and remove the mag', decocker+safety controls if applicable. Practice chambering and removing the SNAP CAP. Get a feel for the trigger, your stance, balance, etc.

Give it a thorough cleaning ahead of that first session so you are familiar with the takedown process and its "innerds".

Don't go to the range with your 10mm as a stranger if you can avoid it. Develop some level of familiarity with it if you can.

Breathe, Breathe, Breathe.

Bottom line, try to get familiar with your 10mm, follow the rules of range safety, expect to do well, and you probably will.


Good luck, and stay safe!

CZ52'

[Sean Smith]

Intune says:

That's why it was phrased as a question, O wise one. Or did you miss that aspect in your derogatory haste? I forgot that it was not a revolver he was referring to so you can now add inattentive to dumb. Retarded might be right on the tip of your tongue if you read any of my other posts.

You are being disingenuous. You advocated doing something that was at best a bad practice, and at worst dangerous. And now you are trying to "spin" it into something else. Quoting you:

Try it, I think you'll like it!

You gave the guy bad advice and got called on it. Boo hoo. :rolleyes:

[Moparmike]

Looking into the .22 conversion is looking like a better idea all the time, and with no need for an FFL or to be 21, absolutely cant be beat. And like everyone said, ammo is quite cheap.

And on top of all of this, I can buy the ammo myself. If I buy a .22lr brick for the purpose of a rifle at the time of purchase and only decide to use 10 for the rifle, well, its not illegal because I intended to use it in a rifle.;)

Gotta love finding the loopholes in law that cant be prosecuted.:cool:

[BamBam]

Mike,
Glad you ended up with the 10mm Witness; I'm sure that you will give it the love it deserves.

Be sure to check out this site for fellow Witness freaks:

http://pub105.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm35

[Soap]

Didja shoot it yet?

[Intune]

You gave the guy bad advice…
Most definitely. I was wrong. Good advice for a revolver, bad in an auto. I was wrong, dumb, boo hoo? Stretch. I'll work on being more precise. ;) You keep me from getting people injured or blowing their guns up! Deal? :D

[Matthew_Q]

I'd get the Witness, and then get the CZ Kadet .22 conversion.

Not only is 10mm pretty strong, thus having considerable kick, it's pretty rare compared to 9mm, .45acp and .40 S&W. (don't be scared of the recoil, it won't hurt you none! ;) )

With the .22 upper, you can shoot LOTS for cheap. The light recoil will help you avoid developing a flinch and let you concentrate on trigger control. Plus you can get the trigger all broken in.

Get in mucho practice with .22 and then throw some 10mm down range.

[Rebel Gunman HK]

It wont bite..... HARD :D
Oh behave! Show it who's boss!!!:evil:

[Moparmike]

Did I shoot it yet? Nope. Did some dry fireing, and I must say that DA pull is stout. To a novice pistol shooter (read only 1 rd 8years ago), the SA pull is sweet. Doesnt move it at all.

Best of all about this pistol is the ability to carry cocked and locked.:cool: