Ammo availability 404 jeffery 416 Rem 416 Rigby


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FITASC666
April 17, 2009, 09:23 PM
I do not reload, however it may end up being the way to go. I'm looking at 3 different calibers for a dangerous game hunt. They are the 404 Jeffery (a .423'' bore) and the .416s in Remington and Rigby. My choice of heart is the Jeffery. The logical choice may be otherwise. In the eyes of a reloader balancing cost, efficiency, availability and performance, which caliber do you recommend? Also which one can be tuned down most easily for North american large game?
Thank you all.

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freakshow10mm
April 17, 2009, 09:39 PM
Powders and primers for each are close enough to be called the same. Your variables are brass and bullets.

.416 is more popular than the .423.

.416 offerings are Hornady, Barnes, Nosler, Swift, Speer, Trophy Bonded (bear claw) range from $35.39 to $67.59 for 50 bullets and sledgehammers being $118.99/25. Brass is $32.59/20 for Hornady 416 Rigby and Remington 416 Remington brass is $81.99/100.


.423 offerings are Hornady, Barnes, and Swift ranging from $47.59 to $64.39 per 50 bullets. Hornady brass is $33.99/50 (68 cents each) and Norma is $52.99/50 ($2.65 each) up to a discount of $2.30ea at 500pcs.


Looks like cheapest is Remington brass and .416 Remington caliber who has lower cost, greater bullet choices.

You will be well served with any of the three. The 404 Jeffrey will be the talk of campfire circles. A good 400gr bullet at 2400fps from any .40 caliber rifle is a great cartridge for hunting and stopping game.

freakshow10mm
April 17, 2009, 09:40 PM
I used Grafs.com for pricing, which includes shipping. I use them for all my reloading needs, with a dealer discount of course.

Strongbad
April 18, 2009, 07:24 PM
The 416 Rem is probably going to be the cheapest way to go in terms of brass, but I believe that the best quality brass is going to be in the Rigby. I reload for the Rigby and use Hornady brass and it's excellent. Knowing the quality of Norma brass, their stuff may be even better. The bullets are going to be equal of course. The Rigby brass is going to be more expensive, but it's unlikely that you're going to go through enough of it to matter. After that it comes down to the rifle you prefer and what calibers it's offerred in.

As for loading them down, any of them can be, but going by the powders they use, the Remington mag is probably the easiest. It's really hairsplitting though to be honest.

redneck2
April 19, 2009, 12:06 AM
Personally, my absolute last consideration would be cost and/or availability of ammo. If I were trying to kill something that was trying to kill me first, I'd be more inclined towards the platform itself and particularly the round's characteristics. Read this and you'll see what I mean.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=443325

Any of the above rounds will most likely be $7-10 per shot in factory fodder. Hand loading should bring that down by 2/3rds or more. You can get all the brass and bullets you want from Midway USA for any of those calibers.

I suspect the availability of factory stuff would depend greatly on where you're going. If it's Alaska, then most likely any of those will be scarce. If it's Africa, then the .404 and ,416 Rigby should be semi common. If you want to consider the .458 Winchester, it should also be available.

FWIW...the .416 Rem has a less than stellar reputation. It is a high pressure round that may develop problems at high ambient temps. Remington's are reputed to have a small and rather weak extractor that may break at a rather inopportune time. I have a couple of 700's that I'll use for groundhogs and prairie dogs. Not much danger of either charging and mauling you.

My local dealer has a Brno (CZ) in .416 Rigby that he special ordered, then the customer backed out. That would be going with me.

YMMV. As a side note, I suspect H & H Hunter will be chiming in soon. He's lived it. I'd take his advice 100%.

BruceB
April 19, 2009, 12:24 PM
The .404 case can be produced easily by re-shaping the .375 Remington Ultra-Mag. I now have reformed about 200 such cases without any losses. All that's required is re-sizing the .375 case (WITHOUT the decapping assembly in the .404 sizer, if I must say it) until it will just barely allow the rifle's bolt to close. The case is then primed, 20 grains of 2400 added, and then filled with cornmeal until there's just room for a loose tissue plug in the neck. NO BULLET!!!!!!

Fire these "loads" vertically....other angles can cause mouth irregularities. They're LOUD! My cases have not even required trimming after fire-forming, but it's a possibility I guess.

NEI (www.neihandtools.com) makes a mould identified as 421-390 which works very well in my .404 rifle.

My .416 Rigby is a Ruger #1H, and it shoots the RCBS 416-350 cast bullet with great success. I've run it as fast as 2600+ fps, but that's an abusive load to the shooter. My cast-bullet hunting load pushes the RCBS bullet (365 grains in my alloy) at just over 2000 fps with 55 grains of Accurate 5744, and consistently groups three rounds in 1.5" from 100 yards.

For practice use, AND some hunting, it's highly practical to use cast loads in these larger cartridges....my .416 Rigby loads cost about 15 CENTS per round!

H&Hhunter
April 21, 2009, 08:18 PM
In the eyes of a reloader balancing cost, efficiency, availability and performance, which caliber do you recommend? Also which one can be tuned down most easily for North american large game?

FITASC666,

Cheapest and most available is without competition the .416 Remington. Nicest feeding and most nostalgic IMHO is the .404 Jeffery. Either he .404 or the Remington will fit in a standard sized action the Rigby needs a Magnum Mauser action. All are equal in their ability in fact I'd say identical.

I own a .404 Jeffery it feeds slicker than owl ****e. It is a cool, old, nostalgic round it also the hardest and most expensive to feed. But it isn't very hard to find components for Hornandy, Hawk, Swift, Woodleigh and Barnes all build .423 bullets for the Jeffery. Brass can be had by Jamison, Norma, and Hornandy.

What it boils down to is what you want and what you are willing to put up with. Once you stock in your components the .404 is a cinch to reload for. If you want cheap brass and better variety of bullets the .416 Remington is the way to go. If you want Tons of old Africa nostalgia the .416 Rigby is your ticket. If you want the oldest and most common African working mans round the .404 is it hands down.

I'll just repeat that all three are identical on capability on DG and all three can be downloaded so you are comparing apples to apples. It simply a question of wanting red, green or Granny smith apples.

I agree with the above comment on cast bullets and the .375 RUM cases are a good option.

FITASC666
April 22, 2009, 04:31 PM
The .458 Lott is the most sensible big bore on the planet. It is cheap to shoot components are easily available and it is becoming more common all the time.

The round is capable of extreme performance but when loaded to a sensible 500gr load @ 2200 it is very manageable to shoot.

H&Hhunter,

I’m quoting your post in a previous thread.
As you know, my heart is in there for the 404. However after reading your commentary, I’m starting to doubt my choice and wonder if the 458 Lott isn't a better one on all accounts except recoil. We all know people react differently to recoil, and I, for one, don’t see it as a necessary ingredient for pleasure. The ladies may like the 470 NE but, after all and like the 458 Lott, it packs a punch. My pleasure comes from accuracy and well placed shots. I do well and kill cleanly. I got very comfortable with my 375 H&H (300grns at 2725 fps) and shot it often and very accurately; 0.5 MOA from the bench and at milk cartons spread out in the pit from 15 to 50yds open sights, 5 fast shots, one at each carton and against the clock.

The 404 will push 450grns at 2200 fps at a recoil level comparable to the 375 in a rifle about 1lb heavier. The 458, in the same rifle weight, will push 500grns at 2300 fps with 60% more recoil than the 404 and 7% more kinetic energy or around 300 ft/lbs. I have never shot the 404 or the 458 Lott. The math comes from comparing loads and entering the data in an online recoil calculator.

Will the Buff know the difference between both rounds? I will. I anticipate not becoming as proficient with this level of recoil because I won’t enjoy practicing and getting a beating in the process. Maybe I have it all wrong? Maybe the difference is only 20%? After searching for PH caliber recommendations the 375 came in a strong 1st followed by the 416s and then the 458s, 470s and 500s. There is a mounting popularity with the 458 win and Lott for African DG. In Australia, the land of Woodleigh bullets, the 404 is said to be more popular than the 458s.

In my part of Canada it is prohibited to practice shooting anywhere but at the range; that means at the bench. A 458 Lott at the bench is not my idea of fun. Neither is getting trampled by a Buff. In your opinion, given the above, is the 404 still a reasonable choice/semi stopper?

H&Hhunter
April 22, 2009, 08:56 PM
H&Hhunter,

I’m quoting your post in a previous thread.
As you know, my heart is in there for the 404. However after reading your commentary, I’m starting to doubt my choice and wonder if the 458 Lott isn't a better one on all accounts except recoil. We all know people react differently to recoil, and I, for one, don’t see it as a necessary ingredient for pleasure. The ladies may like the 470 NE but, after all and like the 458 Lott, it packs a punch. My pleasure comes from accuracy and well placed shots. I do well and kill cleanly. I got very comfortable with my 375 H&H (300grns at 2725 fps) and shot it often and very accurately; 0.5 MOA from the bench and at milk cartons spread out in the pit from 15 to 50yds open sights, 5 fast shots, one at each carton and against the clock.

The 404 will push 450grns at 2200 fps at a recoil level comparable to the 375 in a rifle about 1lb heavier. The 458, in the same rifle weight, will push 500grns at 2300 fps with 60% more recoil than the 404 and 7% more kinetic energy or around 300 ft/lbs. I have never shot the 404 or the 458 Lott. The math comes from comparing loads and entering the data in an online recoil calculator.

Will the Buff know the difference between both rounds? I will. I anticipate not becoming as proficient with this level of recoil because I won’t enjoy practicing and getting a beating in the process. Maybe I have it all wrong? Maybe the difference is only 20%? After searching for PH caliber recommendations the 375 came in a strong 1st followed by the 416s and then the 458s, 470s and 500s. There is a mounting popularity with the 458 win and Lott for African DG. In Australia, the land of Woodleigh bullets, the 404 is said to be more popular than the 458s.

In my part of Canada it is prohibited to practice shooting anywhere but at the range; that means at the bench. A 458 Lott at the bench is not my idea of fun. Neither is getting trampled by a Buff. In your opinion, given the above, is the 404 still a reasonable choice/semi stopper?

FITASC666,

Alrighty then......

The question was about .40 cal rifles but now we have gone full circle and we're back to the Lott. :evil:

So here it is in a nut shell. The .458 Lott is a great round I have no issues shooting a .458 Lott off the bench HOWEVER, that doesn't make it a good choice for you. The Lott is whole different level of recoil from the big 40's.

If you were going to be doing quite a bit of elephant hunting or hunting in thick cover in elephant country IE the Zambezi Valley I'd say go for the Lott. The Lott is the easiest of the big bores to feed no two ways about it.

To answer your question however if a buffalo will know the difference? Here is the simple answer any of the big .40's are plenty of gun for buffalo. Will a buffalo notice the difference? Yes a .458 Lott hits noticeably harder than any of the .40's due to increased bullet weight, diameter and energy. The .458 Lott knocks the cr@p out of anything you hit with it up to and including elephant.

A .404 doesn't have as much punch but it still has plenty enough. The question is what are you willing to endure to become proficient with your rifle? You can simply slide over to a big .40 from a .375 H&H the difference isn't that great. Moving up to the Lott is going to take some dedication on your part. With that being said the transition from a medium to heavy can be done and it isn't that big of a deal but it is a noticeable step up.

PS

Did you get to look at those hunting deals I PMed you?

Reid73
April 23, 2009, 10:45 AM
May be of interest: .416 Rigby vs. .416 Remington Magnum (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177025); "Your First 'Big Game' Cartridge" (http://www.huntinglegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/375-hh.pdf).

the .416 Rem has a less than stellar reputation. It is a high pressure round that may develop problems at high ambient temps.FWIW, here is what Safari Action Shooting (http://www.safariactionshooting.com/?page_id=99) says: "Shortly after the Remington Magnum’s introduction a number of reports began filtering down from the Zambezi Valley that the .416 Remington Magnum displayed pressure and extraction related problems with specific commercial ammunition in the heat of that low-lying area. Bruce Watson of Swanepoel & Scandrol’s apprentice Jason is a .416 Remington Magnum user and he confirm also having had that problem to me personally. This must have been addressed, as no such reports have been heard for quite a while."

Remington's are reputed to have a small and rather weak extractor that may break at a rather inopportune time.To the extent that this is a problem (and personally, I haven't heard any firsthand accounts), it could easily be avoided by choosing one of the Sako 85 rifles, which are available in .416 Rem.

In my part of Canada it is prohibited to practice shooting anywhere but at the range; that means at the bench.Really? I was under the impression that hunting (most of which does not take place at official ranges, and does not involve benches) remained legal in Quebec.

What is the legislation that prohibits casual practice shooting on rural properties? :confused:

H&Hhunter
April 23, 2009, 12:44 PM
Reid73,

Not only have I personally seen extractor failures with a Rem 700. I've personally witnessed two of the and often reported infamous AD's with safety release on a 700. I strongly advise against a M-700 for a DG rifle. The 85 is a better choice yet not one I'd be happy with. I like a positive feed action on DG rifles.

Reid73
April 23, 2009, 01:07 PM
Not only have I personally seen extractor failures with a Rem 700. I've personally witnessed two of the and often reported infamous AD's with safety release on a 700. I strongly advise against a M-700 for a DG rifle. Other people are certainly entitled to their opinions, but personally I am not a fan of any Remington firearms.

The 85 is a better choice yet not one I'd be happy with. I like a positive feed action on DG rifles.There are advantages and disadvantages to both 'push feed' and 'controlled feed' actions, and ultimately it is a personal decision.

Both will work fine if cycled properly. Problems can arise in moments of high stress. I believe most knowledgeable people accept that a non-rotating claw extractor is more tolerant of operator error, although it is not 100% fool-proof.

FITASC666
April 23, 2009, 10:40 PM
Really? I was under the impression that hunting (most of which does not take place at official ranges, and does not involve benches) remained legal in Quebec.

J'ai pris le temps de relire plusieurs de vos interventions depuis que vous participez à ce blogue et je questionne votre motivation d'y participer. Vous êtes tantôt en appui tantôt en critique mais rarement en plus value. Vous revenez souvent sur le droit d'exprimer des opinions différentes et certains de vos propos sont condescendants.

Votre énoncé cité ci haut n'aurait pas eut lieu si vous aviez pris le temps de lire attentivement le texte. Il ne s'agissait pas de chasse mais plutôt d'exercer le tir. J'ai le sentiment que vous le savez et je crois que vous aimez semer la confusion.

What is the legislation that prohibits casual practice shooting on rural properties?

Vous, qui êtes du domaine juridique, ce domaine d'éternelle interprétation, devriez comprendre que la SQ fait tout en son pouvoir pour mettre fin à la pratique de tir sur les terres, mêmes celles reculées. Elle se donne le droit d'intervention sur la base d'une ''pratique sécuritaire''. Si des mesures concrêtes et analogues à celles imposées aux champs de tir ne sont pas présentes la SQ vous demandera de débarasser...Lui offrir résistance dans de telles occasions c'est ''ouvrir le feu''.

Je remarque davantage que vous aimez l'anonymat. Vous n'identifier pas votre lieu d'appartenance sous votre nom d'utilisateur?

freakshow10mm
April 24, 2009, 12:26 AM
*** is that garbage?

coloradokevin
April 24, 2009, 05:43 AM
*** is that garbage?

Well, ya got me. It looks French to me, and I don't speak French. But, I ran it through an online translator thingy, and here's what it gave me:

Part 1:


"I took the time to reread some of your interventions since you participate in it blog and I question your motivation to participate in it. You are sometimes in support sometimes in critic but seldom there worth. You often come back on right to express different opinions and some of your purposes are condescending.

Your named swording ci high would not have took place if you had taken the time to read the text attentively. It was not about hunt but rather to exercise shooting. I have the feeling that you know it and I think that you want to seed confusion."

Part 2:

"You, who are legal domain, this domain of eternal interpretation, should understand that SQ makes everything in its power to put an end to the practice of shooting on lands, the same those were postponed. She gives the right of intervention on the basis of "security practice". If measures concrêtes and similar to those imposed on rifle ranges are not present SQ will ask you to débarasser... To give him resistance in such occasions it is "to open the fire".

I point out more that you like anonymity. Not to identify with you not your place of membership under your user's name?"



So, yeah, make what you will out of that. The translation it gave me didn't make a whole lot more sense than the original!

Reid73
April 24, 2009, 02:15 PM
Apparently I have offended the O/P. I certainly didn't mean to.

I appreciate that hunting and target practice are not identical. My point was simply that hunting typically involves shooting, and since that form of shooting is not restricted to authorized ranges, I assume that other forms of shooting (i.e, casual target practice) are similarly unregulated.

It appears (?) that he is simply saying that many police officers don't like firearms and are liable to object to anyone firing a rifle at a place other than an authorized rifle ranges duly equipped with elaborate backstops, side berms, etc. While there is (presumably?) no specific law prohibiting 'plinking' on rural properties, he doesn't want to run the risk of a confrontation with a police officer.

If the above is correct, the O/P is perfectly welcome to voluntarily restrict his shooting to a bench at a formal range. But other people might not be so inclined, and it would be misleading to suggest that it is legally prohibited to practice shooting anywhere but at a bench.

But then, my assumption could well be wrong. Quebec has many unique laws that strike non-residents as bizarre, and perhaps it does indeed have a law that restricts all rifle shooting to bench rests. If so, perhaps the O/P would provide a citation, so that we may all learn something.

H&Hhunter
April 24, 2009, 07:26 PM
Gentlemen,

A simple misunderstanding has taken place and I am sure that nobody meant any harm.

I've found the OP to be a perfect gentlemen during this and other communications. And I am sure that Reid's comment were taken out of context.

The tough thing about the net is that without body language it is difficult to get meaning from the written word at times as there is no body language. So these little guys here are about as good as we can do.:);):cool:

FITASC666,

Let us know when you and where you decide to hunt. I look forward to your hunt report with lots and lots of pictures.:D

Reid73
April 24, 2009, 08:26 PM
Thanks H&H. You are quite correct that it is all too easy to inadvertantly give offence on these threads; much more so than in face-to-face discussions.

I wish FITASC666 well, and hope that he will find a rifle/calibre that he likes.

Glennster
April 25, 2009, 02:22 PM
I've got a Ruger #1 in .416 Rem Mag, shoots GREAT!!!

Reid73
May 11, 2009, 07:14 PM
FITASC666 has been kind enough to share with me a communication from the Sûreté du Québec, in answer to his enquiry regarding target shooting on private land.

Essentially, the SQ has pointed out that:


only shooting clubs and shooting ranges operated with the approval of a provincial minister are allowed (ref: Firearms Act, S.C. 1995, c. 39, s.29(1));

"shooting range" is defined by the Shooting Clubs and Shooting Ranges Regulations, SOR/98-212, s.1, as "a place that is designed or intended for the safe discharge, on a regular and structured basis, of firearms for the purpose of target practice or target shooting competitions".
The SQ then takes the position that to be able to legally and safely use a rifle on private property, FITASC666 must ensure that the property meets the normal requirements for a "shooting range" and is duly approved as such.

I don't know exactly what kind of shooting FITASC666 proposed to conduct on his private property, but the SQ's interpretation of the legislation appears overly broad. The key words in the definition section are "on a regular and structured basis". IMO, the use of private land for casual target practice, on an irregular and infrequent basis by one person, is not caught by the definition, and is accordingly not regulated by the Firearms Act.

Of course, it is not surprising that the SQ takes an expansive view. They probably would like nothing better than to simply prohibit all private ownership of firearms.

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