[Mags]

You ever notice that online gun ads such as gunbroker and gunsamerica always say the price displayed is a cash discount and you should add 3-6 percent for credit cards. Not to mention some of my local gun stores also charge a credit card fee. Why is this? I do notice that during this shortage several gun stores/dealers are being incredibly greedy but what is with the credit card fee no other buisness charges credit card fees.

[coloradokevin]

Yes, I have noticed this, and I find it a bit agitating.

Many of the gun stores around here will upcharge you a few percentage points if you use a credit card. No other business that I'm aware of has such a practice. Someone once told me that this is blatantly against the terms of the agreement that a business signs with the credit card providers, but I have no way of knowing whether or not that rumor is true.

Still, I hate getting the sour looks when I pull out a debit card a gun store. Give me a break, it is the way society is these days... If I can use a debit card at Mcdonalds I ought to be able to use it at the local gun store (when they are setup to take cards)!

[Hungry Seagull]

All Credit Card Transactions such as VISA etc are a percentage of the total purchase price.

Some businesses pass the cost onto the customer, baking it into thier sticker price.

Other businesses ignore it and write it off as part of taxes each year. An expense.

Some businesses dont allow credit cards because these fees eat em up.

Even more businesses will ask you to stack everything onto the counter and swipe that VISA or MASTERCARD One time so that the fee is paid once.

If you buy the stuff with a credit card on the net without taxes (Excepting NY state and some others) what do you care about a few percent in fees?

That is how VISA and similar electronic transaction processors make thier living. Collecting these small fees millions of times per day.

[Mags]

Yes Hungy Seagull your post makes sense but why are gun stores and dealers the only ones that actually charge you the customer the fee?

[SpecialKalltheway]

Some businesses pass the cost onto the customer, baking it into thier sticker price.

yeah the title of this thread should be "Why are gun stores/dealers the only buisness up front about charge credit card fees"

I prefer stores that will give you the option to save a lil by using cash instead of marking everything up to cover the cost they incur for the convenience of taking credit cards.

[Hungry Seagull]

I never noticed.

Ive spent 3000 some dollars so far this year cold hard cash and a few hundred of that went to charges, taxes etc.

To be honest the numbers were not high enough to matter or be noticed.

[General Geoff]

Because they apparently like to disregard their legal contract with the credit card companies. It is against the terms of said contract to charge extra for processing a credit card transaction as opposed to check or cash.


It is also against the terms of the contract to have a minimum charge for credit transactions (as many convenience stores and other small-ticket items stores do, such as a $10 minimum order). If you call VISA and report them, VISA can and will revoke their merchant account.

[Art Eatman]

Was in a discussion with a club owner just a week ago. VISA, e.g., charges 3% of the transaction $$$. And, just to swipe a card is a $0.25 fee. A buddy of mine watched a liquor-store customer have five cards swiped through the reader before the sixth card had enough remaining credit for a bottle of whiskey. Profit?

I know one major gunshop which makes roughly 15% gross profit on firearms sales. The VISA fee is thus 20% of his profit, right off the top.

Many of the online sellers work on high-volume, low-margin. The VISA fee is thus too much of a hickey for them to not do a two-tier pricing structure.

[spyder1911]

Yes Hungy Seagull your post makes sense but why are gun stores and dealers the only ones that actually charge you the customer the fee?

I was told that some credit card companies charge an extra fee for firearm purchases.

It has to do with who owns the gun (i.e. you bought in on a credit card but haven't paid off the card yet) if a crime were to occur.

May be complete BS but that's what I herd

[SpecialKalltheway]

why are gun stores and dealers the only ones that actually charge you the customer the fee?

I know plenty of gas stations around here in Colorado that will give you so much off per gallon if you pay with cash not credit. It is not common practice for all gun shops either though. I buy my guns with a credit card at one shop cause I like getting hte points for big purchases. At that shop you don't save by paying cash either, so I might as well get the reward points.

[KarenTOC]

I've heard that credit card companies may not allow their merchants to offer a "cash discount" as part of their terms. If a store wants to give a cash discount, they have to do it backwards - by charging a credit fee instead. Stores have a choice: charge credit card customers an extra 3% or charge everybody the extra 3%. Obviously your gun store wants to charge the credit card fees to the credit card user only.

Few other stores do that. So maybe you should really be asking "why are gun stores the only stores to allow cash customers to pay less instead of charging everyone the credit card fee?"

Besides, it's not *ONLY* gun stores. My gas station charges a different price for cash vs credit. And I"m sure there are other stores that do the same. Probably just not places you shop :)

[daniel1113]

Two things should be noted here.

First, while retailers are not allowed to charge customers extra for the use a credit card, there are no provisions against cash discounts. Ultimately, they accomplish the same thing, but they are different. This is why many gun shop owners offer a 5% discount to customers who pay using cash.

Second, like any cost, the retailers always pass the extra cost associated with using a credit card to customers. Of course most stores don't charge an explicit fee when a customer pays by credit card, but you better believe that cost has been passed to the customer through a similar increase in prices.

[ScareyH22A]

At least they give us an option of a cash discount! What the heck is wrong with that?! :p

[Jeff White]

Art's got it right. In normal times the profit margin on guns is barely enough to keep the doors open.

It affects other businesses too. I have a friend who owns and operates a full service gas station. A two man operation, just a mechanic and my friend. Often he has to sell gas at 3 or 4 cents a gallon profit to compete with the other station in the small town. When someone buys gas on a credit card he often makes less then a penny on the gallon after the fees.

[Hungry Seagull]

Hopefully that 8000 gallons of gasoline at 2.00 a gallon for the next two days makes him able to sell all of it when the price holds steady or rises.

If prices fall, he's gonna be stuck with what is left of the 8,000 gallons of gas he paid 2.00 for and forced to sell at 1.95 because everyone else is asking that price on that day.

Guns are issued a price a MSRP and some guns are more in demand and will rise in pricing as much as the market will bear.

[TexasRifleman]

I run into this with many Ham Radio places I do business with.

It's more common than you'd think.

[Nautilus]

"All prices include a 2% cash/check discount"

I'm not charging 2% for credit card use... I'm discounting prices 2% for cash.;) I don't own a gun shop, but I do own a business. If you would rather pay by cash, you get the 2% discount. If my customer pays by credit card, I get charged extra so I'm passing on the extra cost to the customer.

I think thats fair...

[johncantiusgarand]

The first time I encountered that, I didn't like having haggled the price down to what I was willing to pay, only to be told at the point of sale, "Oh, you're using a credit card? I have to charge you 3% more for doing that." BUT, my disappointment over that was unreasonable though. Gun stores are one of the few places where haggling over the price is still commonplace. Bargaining isn't completely fair to the seller if, after he's agreed to the lowest profit he can accept, the buyer opts to pay with something that will cost the seller a surcharge. It is much easier for the seller, who knows how much he has invested in the firearm, to calculate his possible profit margin during haggling without trying to figure how much the surcharge percentage will be for each proposed amount. In a lot of small gun stores like the ones I frequent, the profit margins are pretty small. So I am more than willing to incur a 3% fee for using a credit card if that allows gun stores to continue to dicker a little over the prices.

[TIMC]

Yes Hungy Seagull your post makes sense but why are gun stores and dealers the only ones that actually charge you the customer the fee?

You really want to know?

I was in the buisness for several years and I offered a cash discount for customers that wanted to save a little money. You act like they are just trying to make more off of you but they are not.

The gun buisness is about the only retail buisness that only has a 10-15% mark up. Jewelry,clothes, furniture, ect all sport up to 200% mark up so a 3% credit card fee means nothing to them. When you are only making $100 on a $1,000 gun the $30 credit card fee takes a bigh chunk of your profit. This is the true reason so next time you whine about a convenience fee think about the profit margin. How would you feel about a gun shop that doubled it's prices so you didn't have to pay a credit card fee?

[rbernie]

Look to other low-margin vertical market consumer goods markets (photography equipment, to example) and you'll see a similar approach.

Bottom line is that the fees need to be paid, and bundling the fee into the advertised price simply gives a marketing advantage to the guy who doesn't.

[trickyasafox]

its phrasing. ever go to a gas station that gives a couple cents discount when you pay cash? it is usually referred to as a 2% cash discount and not a 2% processing fee for credit- sounds better that way.

[Working Man]

Car dealers do as well.

Salesman kept calling it cash, I said no I'm putting it on my cc. He said it is the
same thing as I was not financing it. We agreed on a price and I went back to
sit down with the guy that does the financials. He looked at the paperwork
and said I see you are paying cash I handed him my cc and he stated there
will be a 3% (IIRC) additional charge.

My response was less than High Road and I did not pay the 3%.

[Hungry Seagull]

We went into a dealer for a car with a check, same as cash.

Whatever number we hammered out, we filled those numbers in and that is that.

Oh the warrantry? We declined it.

I think the entire transaction took 30 minutes flat including test drive.

[22-rimfire]

Most gun shops are small buisinesses. Cash price on purchases such as guns is frequently a few percenage points less due to the fee that credit card company charges them for the service. If I accepted credit cards, I would offer a cash price and credit card price.

[daniel1113]

This is the true reason so next time you whine about a convenience fee think about the profit margin. How would you feel about a gun shop that doubled it's prices so you didn't have to pay a credit card fee?

Or, gun shop owners could increase their prices by a meager 3% or so and not worry about it anymore. Hell, I bet most gun shops could get away charging 10-15% more if they provided better service and a warmer atmosphere than the big box retailers. For some reason, most of the gun shops I visit think they need to compete with these retailers in terms of price, when that simply is not the case (at least not as often as they seem to think). I routinely pay more for purchases simply because I prefer one shop over another.

[WardenWolf]

There's 2 charges associated with using credit cards: the credit card provider (Visa, etc.), and the credit card processor. Many credit card processors refuse to serve firearms-related businesses, so finding a processor that will serve them often means going with a slightly more expensive one.

[Kenneth Lew]

You ever notice that online gun ads such as gunbroker and gunsamerica always say the price displayed is a cash discount and you should add 3-6 percent for credit cards. Not to mention some of my local gun stores also charge a credit card fee. Why is this? I do notice that during this shortage several gun stores/dealers are being incredibly greedy but what is with the credit card fee no other buisness charges credit card fees.

It is not greed. Try running a business with a significant liability, overhead, cost of good sold, and competition. Then come back and call them greedy.

Yes, I have noticed this, and I find it a bit agitating.

Many of the gun stores around here will upcharge you a few percentage points if you use a credit card. No other business that I'm aware of has such a practice. Someone once told me that this is blatantly against the terms of the agreement that a business signs with the credit card providers, but I have no way of knowing whether or not that rumor is true.

Government agencies around here charge a 3-5% convenience fee for use of a debit card/credit card. Several different retailers (liquor stores, service industries) give a discount for cash.

Still, I hate getting the sour looks when I pull out a debit card a gun store. Give me a break, it is the way society is these days... If I can use a debit card at Mcdonalds I ought to be able to use it at the local gun store (when they are setup to take cards)!

McDonald's margin is a hell of a lot higher than a typical gun store. The average markup of fast food is about 300%, which of course, I think McDonald's is not complaining about someone using their debit card when the cost of a dollar burger is $0.30 including labor. The gunshop is selling an item for $100.00 that costs $90, the credit card fees will take $3-$5 from their pockets.

I have not problems with cash discounts.

[MattTheHat]

FACT: Charging a credit card fee is absolutely, positively prohibited by the agreement the merchant signs with the card processor. It's in every single merchant agreement I've ever seen in over 25 years. MC/VISA simply does not want the consumer to realize there is a cost to the merchant of accepting the card. And they sure as hell don't want the charge being passed on to the customer, as this might result in the customer paying cash, and them missing out on their card fee as well as possibly large amounts of interest they hope to eventually collect on the purchase if the customer uses the card to finance their purchase.

FACT: The merchant agreement does not prevent the merchant from offering a "cash discount". Again, at least not in any merchant agreement I've seen.

The simple fact of the matter is that it's the same thing. In other words, if a merchant charges more for taking a card, they are by definition charging less for cash. However, in order to comply with the merchant agreement, the merchant *must* be quoting the higher price and then offering a cash discount with those exact words.

Speaking as a merchant (in a completely different industry), I don't like the fact that MC/VISA prohibits me from using the wording I prefer. (And I don't have a choice, since I have to agree with the contract if I want to accept credit cards.) Quoting a cash price and charging more for a credit card is the more transparent (and I believe honest) policy. In other words, it lets the customer know that accepting the card raises the merchant's overhead on that sale by approximately 3%.

So, one or more of the following is probably true of the store owner who still charges a card fee:

1> It simply makes more sense to him, as from his point of view, charging a credit card fee more accurately describes what's actually happening.

2> He doesn't like MC/VISA telling him how to run his business, or at least telling him which words he can or cannot use in the day to day running of his business.

3> He hasn't had a customer complain about the credit card fee. If a customer complains to MC/VISA, it *WILL* be crammed back down the merchant's throat. Even if it was properly worded at the time of quoting/sale, if the card charge is shown in any way on the paperwork, and the customer complains, MC/VISA will cram it back down the merchant's throat. Just ask me how I know. :(


-Matt

[MattTheHat]

By the way, this is very similar to the practice of adding PayPal fees. The PayPal user agreement also specifically prohibits this practice, yet it's still not uncommon to see it done. And, if I remember correctly, the PayPal fee comes out closer to 5% in most cases.

For what it's worth, the merchant fee for the Discover card is approximately 1% higher than that of MC/VISA. Whenever I've checked, American Express has always been approximately 2% higher than the MC/VISA rate I was paying.

-Matt

[divemedic]

Not only the higher fees, but the merchant takes on some risk with credit cards as opposed to cash. PayPal charges higher fees to the merchant for credit card sales as well.

[rogertc1]

If you can't pay for purchases in cash why put them on plastic and pay the interest to the CC Co.?
If you can only pay by plastic go to a larger Box Store where you will got zero service and higher prices (like gander Mt.)

[SigP229R]

I always check that part of it out and if they charge you their fee I just usually skip right on by them and take my business elsewhere. I feel that after you pay the high interest rates the cc companys charge then that is enough, you don't need to pay the merchants fee too.

[22-rimfire]

Sig, you might try using cash so you aren't paying the high interest rates charged on credit card purchases (if you don't pay off your bill monthly).

Adjusting to cash is not that difficult for normal day to day stuff. Save the credit cards for paying for car repairs and larger purchases. Oh yes, do pay with a debit card when buying gasoline... too much trouble to pay with cash.

[outerlimit]

When I paid the utility bill a few months ago with a credit card they charged me a fee for using it.

yeah the title of this thread should be "Why are gun stores/dealers the only buisness up front about charge credit card fees"

Good point!

[jhco]

because I don't think its legal to do, I don't know how they are able to get away with it.

[jdh]

Don't want to pay the card fees?
Cannot afford to pay cash?

Simple.
Negotiate your price.
Pay with a check.
Go to your bank.
Get cash advance on your CC. (Bank does not charge you the fees)
Deposit cash advance into checking account to cover the check you just wrote.
You have just put you new gun on your CC and didn't pay the fee. (however your CC company may charge you higher interest on the cash advance than they would on a purchase so it may be a wash in the long run)

[rscalzo]

sixth card had enough remaining credit for a bottle of whiskey.

Maybe he should stop drinking.

[22-rimfire]

sixth card had enough remaining credit for a bottle of whiskey.

A man has to prioritze the important things in life.

[KarenTOC]

Get cash advance on your CC. (Bank does not charge you the fees)

They may not charge fees, but banks usually charge interest from the day of the cash advance until you pay the bill, which means no "interest free" period as with a simple purchase. If the accumulated interest amounts to less than the credit card fee, you will pay less than by credit but still more than if you pay cash. If interest comes to more than the card fee, you might as well pay with the credit card. Also, banks don't usually give credit card "points" for cash advances, so that has to be figured into it.

[rdhood]

The real question is why are OTHER merchants allowing/forcing their cash-paying customers to subsidize their credit card customers? Why are credit card customers getting an invisible 3% discount that is , in many cases, partially refunded to them? If I go into a store with $100 cash and buy a $100 item, I pay $100 for the item. If I go into the store with a credit card and charge it for $100 , I only pay about $97 for the item and the CC company gets $3, and often they refund part of that to me depending on my CC contract. The Merchant has made 3% more off of the cash paying customer. If everyone paid cash, the merchant should (in theory) be able to lower the price of the item because they do not have to pay 3% to the CC company. Thus, cash paying customers subsidize credit paying customers.

[freakshow10mm]

Items I sell I build the 3% into the price. As of the incident I'm going through with a customer that bought a gun from me, was transferred to him in TX, and then is using the chargeback system to steal the gun from me I no longer accept credit or debit cards for firearms. I lost several hundred dollars on that transaction plus $35 in charge back fees for the first time and another $35 the second time including perhaps 10-12 hours getting the information required to fight it again with the CC company and I might still lose. I have a lawsuit pending pending against him. He should have a nice drive up to the UP of MI from TX.

This is the first time ever I've been f'd over by a gun owner. Now he ruined it for everyone else. No more CC's for guns.

I'm lucky to make 10% on a gun sale. Eating 3% and only making 7% is very difficult to make a living. Selling a Glock for $550 and making $38.50 on that sale is no way to pay bills.

[drgrenthum]

Alot depends on who is doing your credit card processing. For my business I go through Sams who has some sort of contract with FirstData to do processing for small businesses.

Currently i pay 1.5% for Visa, MC and Discover and 2.9% for Amex. There is also a .19 trasaction fee. There is a minimum monthly fee of $20 but thats not hard to hit.

The fees suck but are not earth shattering, i simply work them into my prices. Being that i do full color banners, posters, stretched canvases and photo enlargements and the average ticket is $500. I figure that i pay about $7.70 per transaction. I work that into everyones bill whether it is a Hotel paying buy check or someone paying by Credit Card to have a picture of their african hunt put on canvas an blown up to 40"x60". In the end it is a small portion of operating costs.

By the way anyone need anything blown up :) ...pun intended...

[cracked junior]

If I am looking on gun broker I try to find the places that dont charge the extra fee or their price is that much lower then the places with out the fee.

The local courthouse charges extra fee if payment by plastic.

Gas stations charging extra doesnt make sense to me since everyone of them around here you have to prepay with plastic. Some will let you go inside, hand over cash then pump. But most are only prepay with plastic

[Two Cold Soakers]

They're not.

A smoke shop I frequent charges a flat rate for credit AND debit card transactions.

I pay cash for my stogies.

[mgkdrgn]

If you can't pay for purchases in cash why put them on plastic and pay the interest to the CC Co.?


Credit cards are a scam, that is for sure. However, it's pretty much impossible to negotiate your way around the modern world without them.

Try and rent a car with cash.
Try and pay for an airline ticket with cash. (Well, hello Mr. TSA man ...)
Try and stay at a decent hotel and not have a CC on file.

Personally, I use a CC for just about everything, and pay it off every month. That gives me a couple of advantages:
1) I have a written record for all my expenditures ... great for me at tax time
2) If I'm having a problem with item I bought, I can dispute the charges with the CC company.
3) I get something back for the $ I spend. In this case, airline miles. I really enjoyed those three first class Baltimore - Hawaii tickets ... and I'll wager I'll enjoy the 3 first class tickets to Rome I -nearly- have enough miles for now.

Now, on the merchants side, the gun business is pretty much -very- low margin, as are most "hard" goods businesses. (ie, if when you hit yourself with it it hurts, it's a "hard good" and likely a very low margin sales product). He might be clearing 10 - 15% on the sale. Taxes will take 1/2 of that, so now you are down to 5 - 7%. The CC company wants to take 3 - 5%, so now you are down to 2% profit margin on your sales.

Guys and gals ... that ain't enough to live on. You'd be better off putting your money in a Christmas club.

[ShadyScott999]

Someone once told me that this is blatantly against the terms of the agreement that a business signs with the credit card providers, but I have no way of knowing whether or not that rumor is true.

That is true by my agreement. The CC companies "suggest" that you price all goods and services with the +% for CC purchases and then offer a posted cash discount.

With the way consumer prices are being driven down (at least in my sector) by less work and more competition, many small business can't absorb the 3-7% cost of CC purchases.

[aquapong]

Because no one calls them on it. I've heard that it goes against the agreements they sign with Visa, Mastercard, etc. If someone charges more to pay with a card, I shop somewhere else anyway.

[Rezin]

If you see these places with different cash/credit prices, or if they charge you a fee to use a card, report it. This is PROHIBITED by all credit card companies.

Like the one gentleman above said, he builds in his 3%.. I'd never do business with him. Hard to make a living? It's hard for ALL of us these days...... I ran a bike shop for years, and I was 100% in line on all prices across the board. I struggled too. That's capitalism for you. Find a new business. That's what I had to do...

anyway.....

These are merchant violations, they are not permitted at all.

You can NOT have different cash/credit prices

You can NOT charge a fee for using a credit card

You can NOT set a minimum purchase price for use of a credit card....

You can NOT ask for ID on a signed credit card (I disagree with this one)

Mastercard reporting - http://www.mastercard.com/us/personal/en/contactus/merchantviolations.html

VISA - 1-800-VISA-911

LOTS more info here - http://creditboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=265954

[Greg_TX]

For what it's worth, the merchant fee for the Discover card is approximately 1% higher than that of MC/VISA. Whenever I've checked, American Express has always been approximately 2% higher than the MC/VISA rate I was paying.
Which is why a lot of places won't take AmEx cards. My company uses AmEx for their business travel expenses. The travel booking isn't a problem, but I usually have to put about half of everything else on my own card and wait 30 - 45 days to get reimbursed by the company bean counters. :rolleyes:

[gallo]

This is actually good -- to make the users of credit pay for the convenience instead of spreading the credit cars percentage charge to all customers.

[freakshow10mm]

Like the one gentleman above said, he builds in his 3%.. I'd never do business with him.
Of course I do, just like many others. That's called overhead. You take all your costs and figure that into your price. Whether business like me are honest about factoring it in or concealing it, that's one thing. I consider all costs when I set my prices. That includes any merchant fees, insurance, utilities, paper, pens, ink, advertising, etc. To not charge or include an operating cost in a product is foolishness.

[10-Ring]

Some businesses are so big & have so many transactions, they can wave the fee as a courtesy to their customers -- guns shops tend to have smaller margins, struggle to stay open & operate on a very tight budget.
IMO, 3% is a cheap price to pay to have my favorite shop stay open

[slammy]

Nobody mentioned a-mex I guess they charge an even higher fee....much to my dismay It's the only CC I have....I hate those interest charges...

[KarenTOC]

Like the one gentleman above said, he builds in his 3%.. I'd never do business with him.

There's a farmers' market near me that doesn't take credit cards. They're only open on the weekends, and their prices are ridiculously high (and I have a sneaking suspicion that the veggies in shrink wrap with the Dole logo on them are not actually locally grown fresh produce, but I digress). Other than that, I don't know any places that don't take credit cards. Grocery stores, gas stations, department stores, convenience stores... all take credit cards and all count the fees as overhead.

I use my credit card for everything, and pay it off each month, because there's no incentive NOT to. If every business offered a cash discount, I'd probably shred my card. Especially if "cash" meant real cash and didn't include checks. After all, a business has to build in a percentage of overhead to cover bad checks.

[ShadyScott999]

Like the one gentleman above said, he builds in his 3%.. I'd never do business with him. Hard to make a living? It's hard for ALL of us these days...... I ran a bike shop for years, and I was 100% in line on all prices across the board. I struggled too. That's capitalism for you. Find a new business. That's what I had to do...

You shouldn't do business with ANYONE that takes CC's then. We all build the cost in as overhead. The guys who up charge (merchant agreement be damned) based on a CC fee are only charging those who choose to use a CC to pay.
I and most others assume that everyone is going to use a CC and price my items accordingly. That is capitalism my friend.

[atomd]

The gun buisness is about the only retail buisness that only has a 10-15% mark up.

Gas stations make much less than that on gas..but they don't charge a fee for using a credit card (at least none that I've seen do). They make more profit on snacks and drinks than they do gas. When the price of gas goes up, their margin doesn't...but the fee they have to pay for credit processing does go up. Some stations are getting close to breaking even on the gas.

I also don't think the M&P 9mm I just saw for sale at the local shop for $799 was a 15% markup. I think it was quite a bit more than that. I guess it all depends on the shop. None of the shops near me have a "cash discount". Some of the signs say things like "$499 Cash" but really it's $499 whichever way you pay. They just want to encourage the cash I guess.

Discount credit card processing companies are out there now and they are making it a little bit cheaper to do business. Some places probably mark it up a few percent just because they anticipate the use of credit cards I'm sure.

Let's face it....it's a credit card world. The "cash discount" days are numbered.

[OcelotZ3]

Other than that, I don't know any places that don't take credit cards. Grocery stores, gas stations, department stores, convenience stores... all take credit cards and all count the fees as overhead.

~15 years ago, I went on vacation to the N California Coast (Eureka & north). NONE of the restaurants in the area would take ANY credit cards! They said it was because of the fees they would have to pay. This was pretty much a shock at the time for someone on vacation who doesn't carry much cash, and there were no ATM's for many miles. Luckily they did take out-of-state checks (which many other places at the time, who would accept credit cards, would not take).

[Hungry Seagull]

I have gone and used credit cards many times and it will take the bank days or weeks to total up everything hoping I make a overcharge or bounce something.

So I build a CC only account and strip out the rest with cash only.

Ive gone full circle. Cash to checks then to credit cards back to checking visas or mastercards and now heading back to all cash again.

Why?

The banking fees.

[ShadyScott999]

Gas stations make much less than that on gas..but they don't charge a fee for using a credit card (at least none that I've seen do).

I would guess in SC at least 75% of gas stations charge .03-.04 more per gallon if you use a CC.
It is really frustrating when you look at the sign and see $x.xx Then you pull up to the pump and there is a sticker on the pump that says "Posted prices reflects cash price. Add .04 per gallon for credit or debit."

[Pack]

You can see this in bars, too.

Many drinking establishments will post a sign which states that they will charge a minimum of $10.00 on a credit card. Even at the markup rate on on-premises liquor, they must still take steps to preserve their profit in the face of processing overhead.

[Greg_TX]

The donut place by my house has a minimum of $5 to pay with a card. But with a family of 4, that's usually not an issue. ;)

[MAKster]

People who say that merchants excepting credit cards is some great burden are missing the fact that customers almost always spend more when using a credit card verses cash. Studies have shown that people going into a store to buy an item will typically pay 15% more if they buy with credit. If you are looking at two guns and one is $500 and the other $550, it's painless to spend the extra $50 if you are using a credit card. People with cash cannot just thrown a few extras into the shopping cart. Stores accept credt cards because it increases their sales and profits not because they are doing you a favor.

[ShadyScott999]

I accept CC for one reason. I don't want to lose a sale. I do granite & marble counter tops. My average sale is about $4000.00. I have had customers walk out the door when I didn't take CC because they couldn't get their FF Miles.

It is a pain in the butt, expensive, and a general all around hassle to take CC's.

[Hungry Seagull]

One of these days you might get the call for that counter with cold hard cash, that oughta soothe the pain of having to deal with cc's

Ignore the ones that walk away, you could probably not make them happy at any price LOL.

I think there is rapidly a time approaching when credit cards are corroded, expired, cut limits too low, interest too high and no one ever gets soliticated for it anymore except those most likely to be late or miss a payment.

CC's are good for one thing, if the purchase does not go well, it can be contested and I understand clawbacks can be really deep against a business.

[Oldfalguy]

Making a deal with anyone, gun shop or car dealer etc. negotiating for "cash" and doing anything but stroking a check or shelling out the Benjamin's isn't cash-period.
I prefer telling a seller this is a cash deal up front best deal take it or leave it.
Shell or walk, what's to wonder about?
I, like others above, like the choice- Why should everyone pay the same price for xyz when the net to the seller differs? Otherwise, in effect, cash buyers are subsidizing non cash buyers where this choice is not readily available. Take the furniture stores for example. They offer all sorta of interest free for a year. If you go in there and lay out hundreds for the same couch someone else "buys"/borrows on time and pay the same price your getting screwed for 2+% if not more- don't do it.

Now back to your normal programming-

[freakshow10mm]

CC's are good for one thing, if the purchase does not go well, it can be contested and I understand clawbacks can be really deep against a business.
Just like the POS in Texas that is trying to use the chargeback system to steal a gun from me that I sold him. And taking his side. I have to sue him to get my money from this thief.

[Doodler]

They are not the only ones. In fact some retailers flat out refuse to accept Visa and American Express because they don't want to pass the ridiculous fees they charge on to the customer. I run into this all the time at truck stops, restaurants, and hotels.

[Bennyb747]

Gas Stations here charge 3 cents a gallon more for credit cards. Only cash people get discounts.

[DHJenkins]

Great.

Another "why can't I buy what I want at the price I'm willing to pay via the method I'm willing to use" thread...

Enough with the entitlement already. He doesn't have to sell it to you and you don't have to buy it.

Regardless of what your teacher might have told you, life isn't fair, it never has been or will be, and everyone is not equal.

Honestly. You're complaining about a situation that could be remedied by using a money order.

[chuckusaret]

Most of the gun dealers at the gun show this past weekend had signs posted stating an additional fee if a credit card was used. I found the toy I wanted, negotiated
a price and handed my credit card to the clerk and he pointed to the sign, I said no way. My purchase did not have the 3% ($20.85) additional mark up on it. He would have lost the sale if he would not have waived the 3% fee. The item was still overpriced.

[logical]

It's just like people here and other places that want the buyer to pay any fees to use Paypal. Most businesses realize they get business in many cases only if a customer has the option of using a credit card. One philosiphy is to take the hit as a business expense, another is to make the customer pay the fee. It's a business decision...and nobody has ever accused most gun stores of being great businessmen.

If I am selling something here or elsewhere and somebody wants to use Paypal, I gladly accept. I get the money instantly, I don't need to deposit a MO or wait for a check to clear. It's worth it to me.....then again, for all we know that fee is baked into my price now couldn't it be???????????

[Madcap_Magician]

All other businesses DO charge credit card fees. It costs them to be able to use Visa or Mastercard, etc. to process payments, and they pass that on to their consumers. For most companies, it's built into their pricing structure.

[Mags]

Hey DHJenkins, Maybe you should read the first post of a thread before you start complaining. I just asked asked a question and by the way I do have a sense of entitlement I'm very upset alot of gun dealers do not give Military Discounts I go to Iraq and back and I can get a cheeseburger at carls jr 20 percent off but I will be lucky if i can negotiate 20 bucks of a 900 dollar gun purchase. In my opinion 90 percent of Gun Dealers are money grubbing jerks. Thats Right 9 outta 10!

[trickyasafox]

I might be wrong, but I think its not against the TOS if you look at using CC as a handling charge.thats how all these industries I think do it.

[DHJenkins]

Hey DHJenkins, Maybe you should read the first post of a thread before you start complaining. I just asked asked a question and by the way I do have a sense of entitlement I'm very upset alot of gun dealers do not give Military Discounts I go to Iraq and back and I can get a cheeseburger at carls jr 20 percent off but I will be lucky if i can negotiate 20 bucks of a 900 dollar gun purchase. In my opinion 90 percent of Gun Dealers are money grubbing jerks. Thats Right 9 outta 10!

I did read it, hence the response - though it seems your real problem isn't the credit card fee.

Is it really surprising that gun dealers aren't giving discounts during a time when more guns are being sold per day than at any other point in history?

There's also the possibility that you're not very good at haggling. It takes skill to move someone down from their selling price - not just a "please".

And to answer your original quesiton - business owners do not like accepting credit cards. The only reason businesses take plastic is because too many people insist on paying that way.

Personally, I'm appreciate a cash discount because it means the dealer isn't charging everyone the 'plastic price' - only those who choose to pay it.

[divemedic]

Hey DHJenkins, Maybe you should read the first post of a thread before you start complaining. I just asked asked a question and by the way I do have a sense of entitlement I'm very upset alot of gun dealers do not give Military Discounts I go to Iraq and back and I can get a cheeseburger at carls jr 20 percent off but I will be lucky if i can negotiate 20 bucks of a 900 dollar gun purchase. In my opinion 90 percent of Gun Dealers are money grubbing jerks. Thats Right 9 outta 10!

Dude, I can't believe that you expect a discount because you are in the military. (I am not bashing- I was in Gulf War I) I work with people who feel like that as well, "I am a cop/paramedic/firefighter (pick one) and I put my life on the line. I can't believe so and so doesn't give us a discount." Completely forgetting that the business in question and its employees ALREADY paid taxes so you could get your salary.

[Funderb]

because gun owners, like bicyclists, are misers.

[Mags]

Just so everyone not in the military knows we pay taxes too. I always hear that BS I pay your salary well i must pay my own salary then because all military have to pay taxes too. And BTW I feel the whole military discount should be for LE to of course i rearely see Military Discounts without LE but sometimes I see LE without Military.

[divemedic]

Of course you pay taxes, but that doesn't mean that you have the right to expect something simply because of your job. ( I work for the government as well, AND I am a veteran, so I am not slamming anyone for their service.) If you get a discount, be grateful, and if not, don't demand one. You call 90% of gun dealers money grabbing jerks because they won't take $20 out of their pocket and give it to you, in the form of a discount.

Yet the vast majority of active duty military time is spent not in Iraq, but on an installation somewhere playing cards. I am a firefighter and a paramedic, and I hear my coworkers spout off with that "I risk my life" stuff all the time. It is BS. Pizza delivery drivers, 7-11 night clerks, and Alaska Crab fishermen all have more dangerous jobs than mine or yours. That does not mean that anyone who doesn't want to give me money or subsidize my purchases is greedy or a jerk.

[Mags]

Well tell my buddy who's paralyzed that we don't spend that much time in Iraq I've been in for 8 years and i've spent 7 of em sitting at my home station doing weapons maintenance all it takes is that one time just remember that. Just like for LE all it takes is that one call. And by the way I feel the way i feel thats it, thats my opinion. Many Gun manufacturers offer LE/Military discounts and it burns my but that gun stores do not honor them. I truly believe most places should offer LE/Military discounts that's my opinion and just like something else which you may call me every one has one. So while you are questioning my opinion as if it is fact you welcome for your freedom to do so.

[divemedic]

So you and your buddy volunteered for the military, knowing that you would most likely go to war, and that somehow places a requirement on gun dealers to give you money?

[frankd4]

I report them to card company and get the surcharge refunded it is against the law to charge extra for credit card sales.

[freakshow10mm]

Show me the LAW. There is a difference between laws and private company policies.

OP, you have no entitlement to anything in life. If you were to come into my place and toss around your military service fishing for a discount, you'd be told to leave. I don't give discounts I don't care who you are or what you did. I have plenty of military veterans that gladly give me business and never beg for a discount. They think it is a disgrace to the uniform.

[Mags]

thanks 10mm i appreciate that. And as a consumer I will not frequent your store and i would tell all my buddies not to go there. That is how i feel as a consumer and to ask for a military discount is something I do at most establishments so what? It saves me money. If you were a better a buisness man maybe you would understand but instead you are a closed minded bigot that has no sense of service or community.

[Zach S]

Many Gun manufacturers offer LE/Military discounts and it burns my but that gun stores do not honor them.
I hate to be picky here, but to get the LE discount from most manufactures it requires a department letterhead stating that the firearms or accessories are for duty use. Considering the DoD's position on personally owned weapons and accessories, chances are you ain't buying it for duty use.

With some companies, the LE discount with a letterhead is about what it cost retail, as the discount is based on the MSRP, which is quite a bit higher than what it cost NIB at a store. A few buddies on the job have told me that a few bucks aint worth the paperwork and aggravation.

[.cheese.]

They aren't the only ones. Even my apartment complex charges a fee if payments are made by card.

[marv]

Credit cards are Not a convenience for the seller. They are a PITA and an added expense. The seller gets his money only when the processor decides to transfer funds, usually weekly, minus all the fees. They are however, a convenience for the buyer. What it boils down to is the sellers are paying out the wazoo for the buyers' convenience.

[bob.a]

Lots of businesses are tacking on the fees they have to pay, not just gun stores. Times are tough all over.

I suspect the OP noticed it because that's where he spends most of his discretionary income.

The shop that works on my car is glad to hold a check for a week or two rather than have to take a hit from the credit card/bank folks. Seeing how the banks and cc companies have been screwing the public of late, I can't say I'm sympathetic to their situation. But my bailout check is in the mail, and I'm gonna stock up on ammo with part of my first billion.

[cliffy]

My dealer claims they charge so LITTLE over cost that they cannot absorb the 3.5 percent overage charged by CREDIT CARD COMPANIES! I say it all B. S. cliffy

[freakshow10mm]

That is how i feel as a consumer and to ask for a military discount is something I do at most establishments so what? It saves me money.
So you are a cheapskate who tries to use your prior military service to guilt businesses into giving you a discount that you think you are entitled to? That is wrong on so many levels and you're lecturing me on ethics?

[akodo]

If you can't pay for purchases in cash why put them on plastic and pay the interest to the CC Co.?

I use my debit card almost exclusively. As far as my end goes, it is the same as writing a check most places, and it is faster. I don't have any interest fees because it comes out of my checking account.

However, as it is also keyed as a VISA card, places that do the cash discount and/or credit card extra fee will still charge it.

Sig, you might try using cash so you aren't paying the high interest rates charged on credit card purchases (if you don't pay off your bill monthly).

Adjusting to cash is not that difficult for normal day to day stuff. Save the credit cards for paying for car repairs and larger purchases. Oh yes, do pay with a debit card when buying gasoline... too much trouble to pay with cash.

There are some problems here. We have gone up in price on a lot of items in the past 20 years, but still the $20 bill is the standard. If I were to take out enough cash for a standard week's spending, I'd have a dang thick wallet...plus a weekly trip to the bank that I don't have now. Switching to $100s doesn't work as most places refuse bills that big.

'plastic' if used in a way to avoid interest charges (debit or credit but paid off monthly) has some real benifits to the consumer.

It sucks getting quoted a different price, but then I think we for the most part have figured out where and when this happens, and on the rare occasion I go in with the plan to purchase a gun, I'd get cash ahead of time.

[akodo]

Just so everyone not in the military knows we pay taxes too. I always hear that BS I pay your salary well i must pay my own salary then because all military have to pay taxes too. And BTW I feel the whole military discount should be for LE to of course i rearely see Military Discounts without LE but sometimes I see LE without Military.

We do pay your salary. Now, I think a lot of the lower level enlisted men deserve to be paid MORE, but that doesn't change the basic fact that yes, we DO pay your salary

[22-rimfire]

I respect most military and law enforcement folks for their service. I feel nobody owes you anything in this world. If someone offers a military or LE discount, that is fine with me. I feel sure they believe it gets them volume business, the number of discounts are so few that it is just good PR to post the sign, or they have no choice because they have their business in a military base town/city.

I was in a gun shop yesterday. They clearly post a cash price and a credit card price for all firearms. The cash price is for payment entirely in cash, not a cash down payment and the rest in a week using a credit card. Most gun shops list a cash and credit price in my area. Only the big box stores post one price.

Careful use of credit can be a very good thing. If nothing else, it consolidates your bills into a single payment or two at the end of the month. You can use it as a budgeting approach. Pay it off and there is no interest charge to the credit card user. If you carry a balance by choice, that is your choice. If you carry a balance because you have no choice, then I suggest you consider using debit cards or checks. Checks still work.

[Hawk]

This thread is still kicking around?

I may as well add a little fuel to the fire.

Some gun stores surcharge credit cards due in large part to being run by hobbyists and enthusiasts rather than businessmen and simply don't understand the overhead associated with processing non-CC sales. Non-CC sales don't process themselves - the receipts don't post themselves, they don't schlep themselves to the bank and they don't cover the odd NSF pita costs (assuming checks are accepted).

Hobbyists and garage-based dealers are more likely to view their own time as "free" which mitigates the non-CC costs in their own minds and makes the CC associated costs stand out in stark contrast. Businessmen are less likely to employ such metrics.

Hobbyists and enthusiasts are (taking a chance with probability and stereotypes here) more likely to be moralists than businessmen and view the use of credit cards generally as less than ideal. In general, people with strong moral convictions would be well advised to avoid injecting them into their livelihood - a prohibitionist likely shouldn't run a liquor store, someone who has ruined his life through gambling should not run a casino and someone who has issues with indebtedness shouldn't let these feelings interfere with letting someone charge away the last of his credit line should he so choose. It's business - and knowing when to mind one's own.

Hobbyists and enthusiasts are more likely to play silly word games than a businessman. A surcharge is not a cash discount and never the twain shall meet. Truly honest people don't indulge in such attempted misdirection - they can still surcharge but they'll be upfront about it and the fact it likely is contrary to their agreement (I believe Discover may be an exception).

There's a Catch-22 in full force as well: if a business does sufficient volume, the CC cost percentage drops dramatically. A local (rather large) shop advised me it gets to where it's totally indistinguishable from non-CC overhead (this, of course, was in the context of not allowing me a cash discount - cash or credit same price). Charging surcharges will inevitably alienate a portion of what might have been one's customer base, making it less likely the volume will grow, meaning the CC charges can't be shopped around / reduced leading to the surcharge remaining in place.

Such gun dealers have no hope of ever being a Wild West, Sportsman's Supply, On-Target or Ray's to pick a few names at random - they will remain relatively small.

At least one exception, and probably more, exist. At least I think they do - it would be impolitic to name names but I'd bet the rent one retailer does sufficient volume that his CC costs are under 1.6% yet the surcharge remains - he still charges it because of the number of folks buffaloed into thinking it's actually added to his cost when it's more of a separate profit center - in the same manner some few online sellers play imaginative games with freight costs.

Free market disclaimer: I fully endorse a seller's right to do as he wishes and even to believe as he may regarding his CC associated costs. I just really, really doubt many of these beliefs would survive 4 years of formal education in retailing and distribution. But, since I remain undegreed in such disciplines, all the above is just another random internet opinion.

[freakshow10mm]

A lot of online retailers that don't charge the CC fees make up for it in shipping charges. A $30 shipping charge will cover at least $15 worth of costs processing the sale. The retailer will reuse boxes sent to them for stock orders. They are out the tape, ink, labels, paper and time. They get you either way, with a slightly higher price or a little extra on the shipping charge. I don't know of to many that don't charge a CC fee, have low prices, and charge low flat rate (a la CDNN's sytem) or actual shipping charges. If a business is charged something, that's an opportunity to profit off if it.

[Hawk]

Good point about the freight.

If I were to be honest I would likely admit to putting profit into any area I felt I could - at least locally, selling firearms has every appearance of being a perfectly brutal business to derive one's living from.

Still, some don't overly inflate shipping and they seem to have quite a following. One AA seller has no CC fees and ships handguns for a flat rate of 15.00.

Being extraordinarily easy to deal with seems to get the firm more than the average amount of traffic based on my checking the "penny auctions". At least I can't remember ever getting a "smokin' bargain" as there has never been a shortage of competitive bidders, ... much to my chagrin.

Regrettably, I have no means of determining if low shipping and no fees would work for other firms or even if it's really working for him. Then there's the "chicken and egg" conundrum - does he draw his volume from "no fees / low shipping" or did his volume permit the fees to be absorbed into general overhead without trauma?

Another question I'd have is whether his substantial but variable used / penny auction volume serves to provide traffic for his NIB product - I'd guess the used market is much more amenable to "no fees / low shipping" but that's only a guess.

As a f'rinstance:
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=9093266


I suppose the bottom line is that a dealer will operate on a "no fee" basis if his profit is greater without it than with it. Whether the CC cost is eaten, incorporated into general overhead, obfuscated or served with tea and jam is up to his accountant.

I tend to think that "no fee" CC policies "pay" rather than "cost" but that a certain minimum volume and market presence is needed to get there. The problem is that it would play merry hob if I had to prove it.

[Hungry Seagull]

Akodo, we use a safe in the house as our own bank. We capitalize it monthly or weekly as required. Very small amounts of money. In essence we are our own bank now. Recently our old bank complained that they are not making a penny in any kind of fees from us anywhere.

Example they limit account transactions to 5 per month with bank card then charge for more than 5 uses of that card. We opened second similar account with it's own card now we can do 10 transactions a month, they reduce the limit to three per month, we open a third similar account with it;s own card to increase fee free transactions to 9 per month. and so on.

Somebody please make the merry go round stop.

We are also off the FDIC banks and into the NCUA Banks now.

It's stopped. All those crazy fee'ing on both sides. The store and the bank.

I dont mind shipping charges. I used to haul freight and sometimes sat because a shipper could not get a reciever to pay a certain asking rate for the haul.

[freakshow10mm]

There's other things that can be done especially in used guns. You can buy low enough to where your estimated selling price minus any CC fees will cover the fees paid if they pay with a CC. If you buy a gun that's worth $400 for $250, you have $150 to play with, minus 3% or so giving a $388 net sale. Ship a handgun flat rate box for $10 and confirmation is rounded to $11. You make $4 on the shipping which pays for tape, ink and label/paper. You now have a $392 net return from your $415 overall price, take out the $250 investment and you have $142 and you ate $8 in CC fees.

On used guns, it doesn't matter much for a CC buy or not. For me it depends on the price. For used guns I can usually eat $15 in CC fees before I start to factor it in my price. New guns it can be a different story. Usually my cutoff is around $600-650, then I start to factor in the fees.

You mentioned volume and that is a big issue. I am a one man company that primarily performs middle man transfers to CA dealers for others that don't want to ship there. I don't do much in gun sales at all. When I make ARs, I factor the CC in the price. For a $995 AR that I make, the fees are about $30. If I could sell 10 a week, I wouldn't factor the fees. Since I only sell a half dozen a month, it is a factor that I must consider.

Usually low volume dealers charge the fees and the high volume dealers don't. There is always the exception, like Bud's charges fees but they do a hell of a lot of sales.

I'm a low volume guy. I pay anywhere between 1.5-3% in fees depending on the account level (Gold, Platinum, Diamond) of the cardholder. The better the account and better the credit limit, the less I pay in "discount fee" (that term never made sense to me).

[ShadyScott999]

Regardless of what your teacher might have told you, life isn't fair, it never has been or will be, and everyone is not equal.

I agree. Fair is a word used by liberals and children.

[Black Dime]

Credit card processors use a graph and historical sales info to determine fees. If a business has a large volume and large single item sales = lower %. Mom and Pops get the high fees. Low volume and small single item sales. Jewelry stores get the low fees. Large ticket items and monthly volume. No law exists that prohibit businesses from adding fees.
Go to your bank and get a cash advance. Then go buy the gun. Now if you buy a sling, a scope, ammo, a gun cover, then Mom and Pop is making profit.
When was the last time you were charged an "obvious" fee at Bass Pro Shops, or Gander Mountain, or Wally World?

Started life as a banker in 1963. Retired in 2007. Cashed out, parachuted out, consulted out, and loving it.

[Hungry Seagull]

Dont do the cash advance OMG... the last time we did a 1000 cash advance to fix a transmission because that shop did not have a credit card swiper hooked up ended up costing us 600 dollars more the following month or three by the time we fight off the credit card company.

They stuck the first 1000 dollars we sent to pay off the cash advance onto a lower interest balance first and nothing towards the cash advance at the higher rate.

We had to transfer the entire card off onto a Chase 0% intro card good for 9 frigging months, and eat butter and jelly sandwitches to pay off the entire thing in 6 months.

To this day Im so sick of PBJ sandwitches. Some transmission repair ugh.