So how about when you run out of ammo...


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WheelMan
October 13, 2003, 04:08 AM
....or your pistol breaks?

How's your carry piece work as a fistload?

While it had nothing to do with why I chose it, I think my semi-compact baby eagle makes a pretty good club:

1. It's all steel and heavy.
2. Full length dust cover means it won't go out of battery if you jab in the barrel into sombody, or if the gun is dry and locked back you can poke'em with the dust cover/barrel
3. The grip is large enough to stick out below my hand for use in an overhead chopping motion (My magazines have metal baseplates, instead of the usual plastic, which helps this)
4. The trigger gaurd is well forward and square, making a nice little force concentrating point for swinging into someones nose.

Of course it still has nothing on the single action revolver as far as being used as a club goes. I'm sure more people have been effectively pistol whipped with one of those than any other design. If you rotate the gun so the back of the hammer is against the web of your tumb (much like it would be after you fired a round) It's a mean 7.5inch baton on one end (in my case) and a pointy grip kubaton sort of thing on the other. And if you keep a finger in the trigger gaurd it has a little brass knuckle flavor too :)

So how would you rate your carry peice as a fistload? Did anybody actually take that into consideration when decideing what to carry?

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Wedge
October 13, 2003, 09:44 AM
As far as being a fistload goes my Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt is a 10. I think it would hurt less to be shot by it than to be beaten with it.

Tamara
October 13, 2003, 09:48 AM
Did anybody actually take that into consideration when decideing what to carry?

Nope.

Soap
October 13, 2003, 09:58 AM
If I've already fired 25 rounds of .45ACP at the BG, he better not be close enough for me to pistol whip. He had better be stopped, or I had better have ran sufficiently away to save my skin by the time I'm dry.

WheelMan
October 13, 2003, 10:46 AM
Naturally, but I'm talking about that .0001% of the time where the guy is already on top of you and you pull your gun and *click*

Litlman
October 13, 2003, 10:56 AM
Chances are that if you are out of ammo or if weapon is not working you are in BIG trouble and for that you need to do one thing, "RUN AWAY"!!!!! If it turns to an in-fighting situation I would go to my edged weapon.

Soap
October 13, 2003, 03:01 PM
Wheelman- That is true...so I suppose that the good old government model would make a decent dent in someone's skull. That close I would prefer an edged weapon, but I don't know if I would want to drop the gun (which may be back in action with a simple taprackbang). Yet another reason to carry a BUG.

Shaughn Leayme
October 13, 2003, 03:14 PM
If the primary fails, I draw my bug and continue on.

As far as using my pistol as an impact weapon, only in the direst of circumstances.

El Tejon
October 13, 2003, 03:14 PM
I know there are those who advocate punching with the pistol, but it runs contrary to everything I've been taught. I think this is a an expression of the observation that the wise man in Tejas makes about firearms: for a pistol everyone wants to get reeeeal close, "yeah, I shot him and set him on fire," and with a rifle everyone wants to run to the next county before they shoot something.

In LE I saw one pistol used as a blunt instrument. A S&W M36 used to ka-bong a motorcycle club member by another member. He hit the guy on the back of the head and it bent the trigger guard back so that the weapon could not fire. Guy lost his depth perception for a while after he woke up from sleepy time.

In selecting my pistols, it has never been a concern.

Sean Smith
October 13, 2003, 03:26 PM
A pistol makes a poor blunt weapon, generally. Use the right tool for the job... guns for gunning and clubs for clubbing.

That said, I've got an all-steel 1911 with a bull barrel that could probably dent a head fairly well.

:evil:

WheelMan
October 13, 2003, 05:47 PM
Sometimes the right tool for the job is the one you have in your hand. That's the situation when you're close with a guy and your pistol's out of commision.

Zach S
October 13, 2003, 06:17 PM
If I hear "click" it would most likely be due to a slow primer, and this would be about the only time I could see myself jabbing someone with the muzzle end. Trying to push the gun out of battery will result in a .5" hole in the BG's hand, at least, it may travel trough the forearm as well, or end up centermass. Unless Jacki Chan or Jet Li tries to mug me, I cant imagine someone pushing my gun out of battery succsessfully when all I have to do is pull back a little to return it. Not to mention the travel of my trigger is a lot shorter than the distance from their hand to my sidearm. Since my current carry sidearm (C7.45 LDA), and the next one (Kimber Series I Compact Stainless), are built on an officer's model frame, I can't hit someone with the magwell, but I can smack them with the side of the pistol.

However, when it comes to a fistload, I'd rather use my 5 or 6 D cell maglight.

Sean Smith
October 13, 2003, 06:41 PM
Sometimes the right tool for the job is the one you have in your hand. That's the situation when you're close with a guy and your pistol's out of commision.

Gee, thanks for the lecture, WheelMan. No doubt born of the grim experience of life's demimonde, etc. :p

A pistol is a crummy blunt weapon. I'd rather use my hands or transition to a knife than use an inoperable pistol as a club in a real fight. Fists would be much faster and more precise, and a knife would be far more dangerous. Or do I not have my hands in this scenario, too? :D

WheelMan
October 13, 2003, 07:14 PM
Um... You're welcome?

The point of my question was "how's your pistol as a fistload?," That you'd rather stab him or that a gun isn't even a very good club in the first place is outside the scope of the thread :P. I agree, it's not a good club, and I would rather stab him, but that's not the question.

Granted I've never had to do this for real, not many of us have, but I would think if an attacker is close and my non-operating gun is already in my hand, I'm not going to waste time going for a knife or somthing else on my belt. nor am I going to smack him with my weak hand when I have a heavy metal object in my strong hand. I'll be trying to make the gun and his head occupy the same space which will hopefully give me time and distance enough to go for a knife or BUG or run away or whatever seems appropriate at that moment.

Double Naught Spy
October 13, 2003, 07:32 PM
Posted by Sean Smith ...

A pistol makes a poor blunt weapon, generally. Use the right tool for the job... guns for gunning and clubs for clubbing.

Unfortunately, Sean forgot about the Superman factor here. In the early days of B&W Superman on TV, Superman would stand his ground and allow all sorts of rounds to bounce of his chest, but as soon as somebody hurled an empty gun at him he would duck and when they tried to beat him with a gun, he had to perform some fairly amazing hand-to-hand action. Superman did not fear bullets, but blunt objects like empty pistols really bothered him a lot!

---

As far as my pistol as an impact weapon, only in the direst circumstances for which I agree with Shaughn Leayme. Of course, if I am in a fight, out of ammo and the fight is still on, then that criterion has already been met.

Jack19
October 13, 2003, 08:01 PM
Run out of ammo? I leave the house in the morning with a minimum of 50 rounds of 9mm on my person....pretty easy with a Glock. If I need it, there's an AR with 180 rounds in the trunk along with an extra 50 round box of 9mm. But, just in case I do run out of ammo....there's a SP-101 with 15 rounds in the console.

On Saturdays and Sundays...it's the same load out. A long time ago in a place far far away, I learned a hard lesson....ALWAYS carry enough ammo.

Run out of ammo. lololol :scrutiny: :D

Jim K
October 13, 2003, 08:44 PM
Jack19, you are a piker. A year or so ago on another site, a guy bragged that he carried two big Glocks, two little Glocks, four mags for each, plus 200 rounds of extra ammo, a big bowie knife, a small dagger, a Swiss army knife, and two pairs of nun-chucks. Maybe Excalibur was in there someplace also.

I could not conceive of a guy going out like that, under armed.

Jim

P.S. IMO, he was some kid playing SWAT wannabe on the site; he probably had never seen a Glock in his life except in catalogs.

JEK

Penforhire
October 13, 2003, 08:57 PM
Guess I figure my polymer pistols can bash someone's head in almost as well as my all-metal pistols. And my shotgun has 'em all licked for hand-to-hand range and effect.

Dave R
October 13, 2003, 08:58 PM
Fistload? My P-32 doesn't even make a good paperweight.

WheelMan
October 13, 2003, 09:12 PM
Guess I figure my polymer pistols can bash someone's head in almost as well as my all-metal pistols. And my shotgun has 'em all licked for hand-to-hand range and effect.

You've got a 590 with a bayonet lug too huh? ;)

caz223
October 13, 2003, 09:28 PM
I'd personally rather carry a lighter gun with and more ammo, than an all-steel weapon with only one magazine.
To that end, my carry guns are either alloy-framed, or polymer-framed and are in the mid twenty ounce region.
Or two j-frame airweight .357s
Either way, 25 ounces of gun, and 25 rounds of ammo, minimum.
Anything I would have on my person would make a pretty lousy club.

Zundfolge
October 13, 2003, 09:40 PM
The Kahr MK40 I used to have would work well as a slashing weapon with the slide locked back. The front dust cover is very thin and comes down to a sharp edge ... could slash a guys throat with it if you had to :D

Stevie-Ray
October 13, 2003, 09:56 PM
A pistol is a crummy blunt weapon. I'd rather use my hands :eek: Holy crap! I'd much rather hit somebody in the face (if the situation warranted it) with just about any pistol, than use my hand. Don't hafta be quite so accurate and easier on the knuckles.

Standing Wolf
October 13, 2003, 10:06 PM
I ran out of cigarettes once in 1969. I don't run out of cigarettes. I don't run out of Häagen-Dazs chocolate ice cream. I don't run out of ammunition. I don't run out of keyboards. I don't run out of hard drive space.

SnWnMe
October 13, 2003, 10:49 PM
I don't carry but the home duty gun is a 5" Smith 625. I am sure that any intimate contact between it and the human head will result in the revolver being slightly out of time afterward, or maybe the sights getting out of set. Of course, these are small problems compared to the daunting one of getting the gun out of the perp's skull.

Atticus
October 13, 2003, 11:23 PM
I had a dream like that once. Probably explains my pre-occupation with not running out.

keederdag
October 13, 2003, 11:34 PM
Nope. and when it's empty, there's the knife:)

JohnKSa
October 13, 2003, 11:35 PM
I carry a very large (max legal in TX), very sharp (SCARY sharp) folding knife that opens very quickly (as quickly as is legal) and is real easy for me to get to in a hurry.

I sure hope they quit after I shoot them cause I never want to see what someone looks like after they make me pull out that knife and go to work.

I think time spent whacking someone with an empty pistol would be wasted compared to what I could do to them with the knife in the same amount of time.

keederdag
October 14, 2003, 12:12 AM
John, you aint just woofin:D

JohnKSa
October 14, 2003, 12:21 AM
John, you aint just woofin
My current boss used to work with a fellow who got mugged. He managed to get to a knife and messed them up bad enough that he got away without injury.

It screwed up his head though. He was never the same after that. Something about the experience, either getting held up, or having to cut them up at close range was more than he could deal with.

gearbox
October 14, 2003, 12:37 AM
My USP9C wouldn't be too great. If I'm on the ground I've lost. If I'm standing I can draw my tiny Benchmade 705, but chances are if I have my gun I'm in the bedroom. So I'll grab my KaBar or 4-cell Mag. Hell, I'll grab the blanket and jump out the window. :p

Dr.Rob
October 14, 2003, 01:31 AM
I'm pretty sure the Mark 23 SOCOM was designed with that in mind, as was the knuckle duster looking trigger guard on the P9S.

I never really gave it much thought other than to say "if you kill me with my own gun you better beat me to death with it because it's going to be empty."

Mattkc
October 14, 2003, 02:20 AM
Only time I hit a guy with a gun it was a Rem. 870. Butt stroke to the back of the head dropped him just as fast as if I shot him. I could of shot him but it was one of those Polish firing squad deals. Knew a guy that smacked a dude upside the head and the gun discharged one ruptured eardrum.

cool45auto
October 14, 2003, 01:59 PM
Hmmm, my Beretta is kinda heavy. Yeah...I think it would make a good size dent in someone's skull if it had to!

Hardtarget
October 17, 2003, 12:52 AM
I think Burt said "I ran out of ammo...thats never happened to me before."
Well, its happened to me...and I hadn't finished perforating all those pesky beer cans. A sad day.
Mark.
I can't out run any BG anymore so I'll have to use my pistol even if it breaks the gun to pieces.

1badmagnum
October 17, 2003, 08:03 AM
the desert eagle makes a great club!
thats all mine is good for since the safety fell apart.
sent email to israel asking for a replacement,since magnum research couldnt care less.
wonder if imi will send me one.????

MrPink
October 17, 2003, 10:08 AM
I usually carry one of two guns:

HK P7PSP or an S&W 340PD. Spare ammo consists of a spare mag or a speed strip. No 50 rounds carried on me.

While I take reasonable precautions for my personal security, I don't prepare for the extreme/fictional Hollywood scenario where I might be in an extended shootout. As I get older, it is also easier to carry the 340PD over the P7 more and more.

Run out of ammo - I'd reach for my small sebenza instead of using the gun as a club.

Trisha
October 18, 2003, 09:51 PM
Defensive layers (when escape is impossible):

Primary handgun (2 reloads)
Back-up handgun (3 reloads)
Edged weapons and ASP (never need reloading)

A dry handgun as a club? Anything's possible, I suppose. . .

Trisha

jercamp45
October 19, 2003, 10:23 PM
A thumb in eye socket better than pistol upside the head!!
Outta ammo and there is still a threat?.......Agent Smith returns and brings all his duplicates too? A home video from Biker's Gone Wild?
Then the back up....then the knife....then the hands...
If I can't break off.....get to the trunk to rearm or get someother hardware from some corpus delecti...... well, shoot,,,,,,guess my Piece is heavy enough...a whack across the temple, or poke the empty barrel into his trachea...
How 'bout the famous ear snap? Where you put the bg's ear between your slide and hammer and pull the trigger, oops you Glock carriers are out of luck on this supersecret move......just kidding.....
Hey a new 'tactical' academy is born, the handgun as an impact tool......
Right.
Jercamp45

NevadaPistolero
October 19, 2003, 11:13 PM
Thats what a big ??? knife is for......dont leave home without it :)

JohnK
October 20, 2003, 09:34 PM
Naturally, but I'm talking about that .0001% of the time where the guy is already on top of you and you pull your gun and *click*

That's when the years of martial arts training comes into play :)

A handgun may be a poor bludgeon weapon compared to a baseball bat, but a 3" GP100 could make a dandy set of "steel knuckles" in an emergency.

Prodigalshooter
October 20, 2003, 11:28 PM
Double Naught...

:D :D :D :D :evil:
good on ya!

TonyB
October 21, 2003, 04:38 PM
my SP101 would give a mean headache.......
A buddy who worked in a gun shop years ago said he was trying to sell a Colt 38 snubby to a police officer.The cop said he prbably couldn't hit anyone with it.Mybuddy said,"they're pretty accurate"....the cop says"no,I mean with out the underlug,I'm afraid if I HIT somebody with it ,it would break ."He understood that sometimes a handgun IS a good bludgeon..:cool:

JDSlack
October 21, 2003, 08:37 PM
If I run out of ammo and still have a threat facing me, that's a good indication I did not handle the situation properly. If my gun breaks, that's a good indication that God wants me to leave. In either case, I be trying to get the hell outta Dodge! Besides if I was in a shooting situation, I have to assume the BG had a gun also (okay, maybe a knife or BF club), so if I can't return fire, and he's still a threat, he probably can return fire, which brings me back to leaving Dodge ASAP.

Like Robert DeNiro said in Ronin, "I don't like going into places I don't know how to get out of."

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