PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101...


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Dave McCracken
October 13, 2003, 07:04 AM
Lots of folks who see these things used on TV think they're good for close range combat. They're not. Here's how I know...

1981 was a busy year for me. I had been promoted to Sgt in near record time, survived the J Dorm Riot at the MD House of Corruption without a scratch, and been made a Firearms Instructor. We had a new prison opening and 300 rookies to qualify on all three weapons, 38 Service revolver, Mini 14, and the 870 shotgun.

The Powers That Be in MD's prison system had decreed that instead of towers at the new prison, there would be Rapid Response vehicles circling the institution armed with revolvers and shotguns. These last were equipped with the egregious Remington folder that was recalled for its propensity for cutting faces under recoil.

They also commanded that ALL officers be taught to shoot from the hip with the stocks folded.

With the help of the FBI, who had run the Instructor's school we attended, we figured out how to accomplish this. We set out to A, learn ourselves, and B, get 300 plus rookies to pass the qualifiers and become safe, effective shooters.

Few instructors then and now were shotgunners. I was, and got tagged to not only fire demo rounds for each 25 officer segment, but had to qualify past 90% score to keep my certification. I did, but it took work.

Long story short, I fired hundreds of rounds from the hip that summer. And, I observed hundreds of new officers and some old ones attempt it also. NONE did as well shooting from the hip as from the shoulder. Most had no problem passing the easy qualifier from the shoulder, but they ALL had trouble doing so in the hip shooting portion. By 1991, when I had too much rank to instruct any more, the folders and hip shooting were history, and so were the geniuses who thought that mess up.

Since then, I've taught some private students. A few have showed up for their first lesson with a PG only shotgun they're never fired. Next session, they'd have a standard stock.

Except for some use as a door breaching tool, there's few pros that have PG only shotguns. And those few are quite specialized.

In my somewhat jaundiced but valid opinion, the effort, ammo and time put forth to get one reasonably proficent with a PG only shotgun would,with a standard shotgun, result in being Abso$%^&*ly deadly.

And for those doubtful of the validity of this opinion or mine, here's a challenge. It's the same one I started on TFL.

Any PG only fan living close to Central MD is invited to a shootoff.

We'll shoot your COF.

We'll use the ammo of your choice.

YOU can use any PG only shotgun you want to,with any accessories up to belt feed and lazer sights.

I'll use a standard stocked 870 with few mods or addons.

We'll shoot for score, time decides ties, but there won't be any. Results posted for all to see.

If you enjoyed reading about "PG Only Shotguns and Hip Shooting 101..." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
sm
October 13, 2003, 09:45 AM
:D

dfariswheel
October 13, 2003, 12:12 PM
The use of any rifle or shotgun for "hip" shooting is one of the great Urban Myths.

In Hollywood epics, the shooter holds the shotgun at hip level, points it vaguely in the general direction of a bad guy and pulls the trigger.
There is a dull "BOOM", the bad guy is picked up and tossed 8 feet like a rag doll, and an entire 10 foot wide plate glass window is blown out.

In the real world, if the butt isn't in your shoulder, you won't hit anything RELIABLY.
Yes, there are people who can hit very close targets, but they can only do this on the range. Give them a realistic combat shooting test, and the stock-less gun somehow looses effectiveness.

In addition, a simple test proves that it actually takes LONGER to lower the gun to hip level than it does to bring it to the shoulder, when the gun is carried in the normal "port arms" position.

There is a place for the folding or stock-less shotgun, but these are for very special, very limited circumstances.

I would very much like to hear the results of a stocked-stock-less shoot-off.
The one's I know of were no contest at all.

You may dispute this at will, but before you do, take a stock-less out to a range and run some "real" shooting tests.

foghornl
October 13, 2003, 12:48 PM
I don't have anywhere near the shotty experience of Mr. McCracken and others on this forum, but I have found what works and doesn't work for me...and the Pistol Grip shotty DOESN'T work for me.

With the PG shotty, I can do just as well by emptying said shotty, then firmly gripping muzzle, charge target while emiiting a primal scream, and using as a club....

Correia
October 13, 2003, 06:28 PM
In my opinion, to become barely proficient with a PGO you have to expend so much time, effort, and ammo, that if you were to put half the amount of work into mastering a regular shotgun you would be doing Tom Knapp like demonstrations at the end of American Shooter episodes.

Seriously, I've never seen anybody able to use a PGO with any sort of proficiency whatsoever. I've had people on the internet tell me that they are really good with them, but I've yet to see it in person. I'll believe it when I see it.

Rob96
October 14, 2003, 05:40 AM
See I am smart enough to not take Dave up on the challenge. When I went thru the state required course for my license for armed security, the instructor, who was the assistant director of the local police academy, had us fire three strings of fire: buckshot from the shoulder, slugs from the shoulder and buckshot from the hip. Shooting from the hip was to demonstrate to us that it was hollywood bull.

kudu
October 14, 2003, 05:49 AM
I can usually average about 22 out of 25 from the hip at the skeet range, it really annoys the other shooters that are just trying to hit them from the shoulder. :D On the trap range it goes down to about 15 out of 25. After tens of thousands of rounds its kinda natural to know where your shotgun shoots from almost any position.

Dave McCracken
October 14, 2003, 06:25 AM
Thanks, folks. A coupla things...

S'funny, the folks on this thread have centuries of shotgunning in aggregate. We don't have PGOs. Catch my drift?

And Kudu, the key in your statement is "Tens of thousands of rounds".

Perhaps the best way to regard a PGO shotgun is as a ungainly,inaccurate handgun with bad sights, limited effective range and more kick than the 454 Casull.

kotengu
October 14, 2003, 07:34 AM
Just curious Dave - what sort of things did you guys figure out that helped to teach hip shooting? Are there any "techniques" or is it more just "keep doing it until you figure out where your gun is pointed"???

Kestrel
October 14, 2003, 11:01 AM
Dave,

Thanks for the great info. We're fortunate to be able to benefit from all the great experience on this forum.

Steve

Badger Arms
October 14, 2003, 12:43 PM
Useless? Hollywood crap? Inaccurate? Wait just a minute. I've responded to PG only threads this way in the past, let's see what the take is this time. Dave, I'll take you up on your offer on one condition, you come up here and demonstrate. Bring chest waders, a good pair of hiking boots and your fishing gear. Now, you need to go on, say, 10 fishing trips with me hiking through the densest thicket I can find with low branches, muskeg (floating ground!) swamp, vines, etc. See how far you can make it with your full-shotgun. Then, on the 11th trip, we might just happen upon a bear that don't like you too much. You won't have time to unsling your shotgun (if it survived the trips) and take careful aim. Besides, it's hard to claim self defense if the bear is shot in the behind from 50 yards with a slug. If the bear gets close enough, you're only going to need minute-of-barn accuracy anyhow. In this case, give me a Marlin Guide gun any day, but the PG shotty loaded with buck is more likely to hit than a Pistol and a great deal shorter and lighter than a 'proper' rifle or shotgun.

This type of shotgun is 10 times more likely to fire a warning shot (or a flare, location shot, or suicide shot if you're mauled too bad) as it is to fire in anger at a bear. I'm also about 100 times more likely to have my little Ithaca with me while fishing as I am my Remington anchor which resides in the house and visits the range often.

My Ithaca also fits snugly in the following places: Boat, Piper Cub Aircraft, Airline Baggage, 4-Wheeled ATV, Snow Mobile, and in the trunk of my car. A doubly-good plus on the ATV and Snow Mobile is that a roll-over does not result in a bent barrel, cracked stock, or worse. Seen many a shotty destroyed this way.

Badger Arms
October 14, 2003, 12:44 PM
OOOOHHhhhhhh, onlast thing. When the bear get's bored just mauling you, the lack of a sight on the barrel of my PG shotgun makes the experience much less painful. Alaskans know what I'm talking about.

Andrew Wyatt
October 14, 2003, 01:12 PM
badger: that's a pretty epecialized need, and i'm pretty sure that need could be filled by a folding stock shotgun just as well, seeing as it's darn short when folded, and still has a stock on it.


heck, a properly designed pullpup'd work too.

sm
October 14, 2003, 01:13 PM
Badger Arms.

You are an exception to the rule. Dave has posted so. :)

There is a place for the PGO Shotgun, your environs are an excellent example. Armored car guards another. Heck I was req'd to have one in my trunk for awhile once upon a time.

What I percieve Dave is trying to do with new shooters to shotguns is the same problem new shooters fall into or get lured into regardless of shotgun, rifle or handgun.

Instead of getting educated, taking training, trying various makes for fit, patterning for themselve for that particular gun...etc. They see the movies and read the write ups.

Iwannacoolgunvirus .

They never practice, maybe so much $ tied up in the add ons they can't afford ammo. They show up at a range and either the bbl length is too short and not allowed, or they get hurt (physically/embarrassed) and never go back out again.

Nope, you have a legit need and use for a PGO.

One learns from mistakes...just a whole lot cheaper and less costly if someone else's

Badger Arms
October 14, 2003, 02:22 PM
Yes, and I agree with Dave on all counts. I don't wanna be laughed at by anybody when I pull out my PG Shotty, though, so I always add my 2 cents worth on these threads.

sm
October 14, 2003, 02:33 PM
Well sir , I assure you I never laugh when a shotgun is pulled...I don't care what kind of material, grip, make, model or whatnot. :)

By posting your environs, and unique situation perhaps someone else can see the benefit for themselves in a similar situation, or. realize for them the PGO is not the best choice for them.

Hey, we are all on the same side. Enough disention exists already that needs to be quelled , IMO, In "promoting responsible firearm ownership".

Dave McCracken
October 14, 2003, 08:26 PM
Badger, rein thy choler. We've discussed this until we're blue in the monitor, and for your special situation and mission, a PGO makes some sense.

But, you're not a new shotgunner trying to separate wheat from chaff. This IS directed thus.

Kotengu, here's the best method for shooting from the hip with either a standard stock or a $%^&*()PG....

Stand facing the target, and advance your forward foot a short step's distance. Holding your firing arm parallel to the ground, push the inside of your forearm against your love handles and lock the elbow on your support side arm. LEAN into the shot until you're almost falling forward, and use the barrel in the lower part of your peripheral vision as a guide to pointing it towards the target.

I suggest using a backstop that's ludicrously high.

Once this is learned, chamber a live round, preferably a very light one and fire it off. Note it takes longer to get back on the target you probably missed. Quit before the carpal tunnel syndrome kicks in.

After lots of practice, paid for by the State of MD, I got to where I could traverse fire on 5 tombstones in 5 seconds with good hits. Better trained and co-ordinated shotgunners can beat that easily. But....

The same amount of practice with a standard shotgun would have ended with Tom Knapp pondering a career change. We went through hundreds of rounds.

Steve, glad to help.

And 73, I tend to not annoy folks holding shotguns....

Nightcrawler
October 14, 2003, 08:55 PM
Badger, my question is this. An 18" barreled shotgun with a regular stock probably isn't considerably more unweildy than an 18" barrled levergun with a regular stock.

So why do you say one is unusable whereas the other is not? I'm not questioning your choice of shotgun, just curious.

Preacherman
October 14, 2003, 11:03 PM
There's a guy who comes in to my favorite gunshop now and again. He has an interesting scar from under his right eye, across the cheek, to a bit in front of his right ear. His nose is also a bit crooked. I asked him once what had happened...

He said that in his younger days, he'd been enamored of the PG-only shotgun concept, and had so equipped an 870. He decided to test it out at the trap range, and arrived at the range carrying his PG weapon. The rangemaster was more than a little amazed at his wanting to shoot trap with it, but reluctantly agreed to let him try a round. As the first bird was launched, he instinctively put the shotgun up to a shoulder-shooting position, holding the PG just under his eye. The inevitable result - the recoil drove the PG hard into his face, breaking his nose, putting a deep gash (right down to the cheekbone) into his face, and dropping him unconscious on the floor!

The rangemaster called for an ambulance, but he regained consciousness and refused to go to hospital, opting for his local doctor instead. Seventeen stitches and a nose-plaster later, he went home, to be greeted by his wife's succint comments about shooters and their stupidity... :D

He put a regular stock back on his 870 the next day, and hasn't used a PG since!

Badger Arms
October 15, 2003, 02:57 AM
Nightcrawler:

It's a difference of about 10" and it does make a considerable difference, yes. A PG shotgun is just slightly over the 26" limit. That's the minimum length I can have with such a weapon. That extra 10" sticks out below the behind when you sit down or above your head when you are walking. With the PG, I can sling the gun across my back and have complete freedom and range of motion. The gun is there, but it never gets in the way sitting, ducking, walking, or anything else. Very tidy. Imagine the difference between an 18" barrelled gun and a 32" barreled gun.

Uses: I'll list them again. Agreed, very limited, but here they are: Hiking off-trail, fishing in waders, fishing along thickly wooded rivers (where bears reside) Snowmobiles, 4-wheeled ATV's, Boats, Light Aircraft, and Airline baggage. Sure, you can take the gun down for the last two, but in the other instances the gun should be ready to fire. Where a PG would be preferable is when it will be carried often, and shot little in protection of life and limb from four-legged critters. Lesser-48 folks might not see the utility here, but it's a common, everyday event up here.

sm
October 15, 2003, 07:18 AM
Badger Arms,
Makes sense to me. Hey ,post some pics of your PGO in the environs you speak. Don't really care about the shotgun, just an on topic way to see the wonderful sights you have...:D

Badger Arms
October 15, 2003, 01:55 PM
Got Pictures, but no digital pix of me in the environments I speak of. Maybe this winter. And, no, I've never had the 'comfortable sights' used on me! :what:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=544882

sm
October 15, 2003, 02:07 PM
Geez Badger, you've been in the bush too long. I mean "sights" like scenery, fish, bears ( from a distance prefebly) from the plane.:D

Ok the guns have character,looks like they still need a little breaking in...:) Reminds me of some I use...I like simple, I can see we agree on no doodads, gidgets, and such. I learned to shoot with what you refer to as comfortable sights.

I'll let you explain the "comfortable sights" to new guys. :p

Thanks,
some day I gotta see your neck of the woods, been to Canada 30 or so yrs ago...never Alaska...

hillbilly
October 15, 2003, 02:29 PM
I've got a PGO shotgun story as told to me by a local gun dealer.

Seems the dealer has "a friend" who thought it would be cool and cheap to get one of those $90 H&R top break shotguns from Wal-Mart and chop that into a a PGO style.

He hack-sawed off the buttstock and then the resulting pistol grip smooth. Cut the barrel down to 18 inches long.

Put camo duct tape all over it just to heighten the "coolness" factor.

Took it fishing with him to a small country road with a small bridge over a rather deep portion of a stream.

While fishing, he spied a large cottonmouth cruising along and decided it was a good target to break in his new gangsta 12 gauge.

He got the shotgun out of his car, loaded it with one bird shot shell, and went back up on the bridge. The snake came swimming by again.

The guy aimed with only one hand, old West duelist style.....Well, since it's a pistol grip shotgun, you shoot it like a pistol, right????

Pulled the trigger and BOOOOOM.....the shotgun recoiled back and up, ripping a gash in his trigger finger. The shotgun tore loose from his grip and went spinning through the air over his head in a big arc all the way across the bridge, and SPLASH landed not far from the frightened snake and immediately sank forever into about 30 feet of water.

hillbilly

Youngster
October 15, 2003, 04:04 PM
I fired a pistol grip shotgun for the first time about a week ago, an 870P with a folded Butler Creek stock. Even loaded with buck the recoil was mild and after an embarrassing miss initially I was able to able to do some good work with it, however never to the point that I would choose to go forth stockless unless I were in an environment where handling space and engagement ranges were minimal.

amd6547
July 23, 2009, 05:54 AM
Fairly pathetic that this was hashed out in a thread not long ago, and then this anti PG thread is made a sticky.
To those with an open mind...
I have shot a PG shotgun for quite while...a couple decades. I have used a few different grips, from Choate, factory Mossberg, and Pachmayr rubber vindicator. My current set-up is the SpeedFeed Chickenhead grip, a straight PG similar to the grip used on the witness protection shotgun. This grip is far different in performance than the traditional PG...In use, it distributes the recoil much better, and, since it is held like a regular shotgun, does not interfere with the use of the Mossberg tang safety.
With my set-up, I have no problem hitting quickly and repeatedly using full power buck or slugs, at ranges out to 25yds.
Never got kicked by my shotgun...But then, even from the first shot a couple decades ago, I was never stupid enough to hold it in front of my face.
I am not saying that a PG shotgun is superior to a stocked shotgun, or that everyone should own one...For me ir serves a useful role, and I shoot it well.

Rshooter
July 23, 2009, 05:21 PM
I respect that a lot of long standing shotgunners believe PGO's are worthless. I realize my shotgun is actually a folding stock gun. I would stop any shotgunner from putting one of these beasts to his face or holding one like a pistol.

But guys I own one a folder and while I might not be able to beat Dave in a shotgun course with the stock folded I would meet him in my house at night with this gun. I have practiced with this gun, am confident with it, and I trust this gun. I also have a Mesa pistol grip and recoil reduced stock gun for my wife and another older police gun.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd69/ssgtward/870policefs2.jpg

Fred Fuller
July 23, 2009, 07:12 PM
amd6547,

This thread was made a sticky along with all the other 101 threads in the process of compiling them into one easily accessible thread. That was the reason for it, and it didn't stay that way very long. I stickied it again when it showed back up, thinking it had been missed. But it was indeed on the list in the compilation thread, and is no longer stickied as an individual thread.

As to the utility of PGO shotguns, every individual has a perfect right to configure their own shotgun however they like. Just as they have a perfect right to either observe or ignore advice from any source whatsoever, whether invited or uninvited.

FWIW,

lpl

amd6547
July 23, 2009, 10:25 PM
I admit I am a bit touchy on the subject. I find the outright dismissal, disbelief, and vaguely insulting tone of the discussion, followed by grudging admission of "limited utility" to be annoying. Limited utility is all I claim for the PG shotgun, but, within that limited utility, it is an exceptional weapon.
The last time the subject came up, it went on for several pages of insult and vitriol by the anti-PG crowd. When the discussion finally became more reasonable, with more posts taking a positive tone, it was suddenly closed by McCracken.
The pistol grip shotgun has a long history of use dating back to the days of the blunderbluss.
A rational discussion of the proper technique for the employment of the PG shotgun would better serve the readers this thread claims to serve.

Fred Fuller
July 23, 2009, 10:33 PM
A rational discussion of the proper technique for the employment of the PG shotgun would better serve the readers this thread claims to serve.

Feel free to start one...

lpl

earlthegoat2
July 23, 2009, 11:48 PM
Dave,

You probably already know this, but you would get fired from any gun store you worked at.

MAX100
July 24, 2009, 12:35 AM
The heck with hip shooting a PGO shotgun. I have no problem aiming one and controlling it for follow up shots. I can't believe people hit themselves in the mouth trying to aim one. The same would happen if you held a handgun to close to your face.


GC

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 24, 2009, 12:36 AM
Only way I could see it working is with a laser sight.

RevolvingGarbage
July 24, 2009, 02:38 AM
I had a pistol grip on my 18" pardner pump 12ga for a little while. I did some shooting with target loads, and it was fun. Aiming without getting beat in the face every shot is possible if you have the size for it. I even fired it one handed one for the novelty of it. It certainly kicked but it wasnt painful (this was a true pistol grip, not a sawn off stock type grip. Had it been the latter im sure more pain would have been involved).
I have no interest in the pistol grip for any kind of defensive role, but if you're just shredding targets it can be fun to try.

SN13
July 24, 2009, 09:01 AM
Watched a guy shoot a shotgun stage with a PGO... stage even had flyers. He did alright until the crouching port where he got one to the face :(..... He hit everything though and about as fast as the other pump guys with the stocks.

That being said, I have a folder and have never shot it PGO style.... hrm.

Rshooter
July 24, 2009, 10:29 AM
A rational discussion of the proper technique for the employment of the PG shotgun would better serve the readers this thread claims to serve.

Lee, I agree with you wholeheartedly but as it was pointed out by amd6547 a new member had requested information about using PGO's. Before any competent user of a PGO could answer him several persons who had very strong opinions about PGO's had already placed the thread on the way to being locked.

I would ask that if you do not like PGO's and you cannot keep your statement friendly, fatherly, or humorous to please not post on a thread discussing how to use a Pistol Grip shotgun effectively.

Dave McCracken
July 24, 2009, 10:26 PM
Earl, I couldn't care less. I AM a bad salesman. Way too honest.

As far as a "Fatherly" tone, I've attempted to steer new shooters away from stuff I regard as useless, dangerous, or just plain wrong. Still am.

And, I sure would like to find out where PGO shooters go to practice. It's been years since I last saw anyone getting in some practice with a PGO.

And since the folks who claim that they are walking death with a PGO shotgun need to hone those skills constantly, they must be practicing at secret ranges all over the country.

sarcasm mode off....

amd6547
July 24, 2009, 10:31 PM
.....

oneounceload
July 24, 2009, 10:42 PM
I made the mistake way back when and bought the 500 cruiser model - PGO....after a box or so of target shells, I ordered a synthetic stock which has been on it ever since. I still do have that pistol grip somewhere. I shoot thousands and thousands of shotshells a year and would not use a PGO.

If it floats your boat, have at it, but you won't be allowed to shoot it at the gun club I belong to - gun's too short

amd6547
July 24, 2009, 10:59 PM
Those who are unable to effectively employ the PG shotgun or are unwilling to learn how to do so properly should certainly stay away from them...just like any other firearm.
My previous post was deleted due to percieved insult...I hope my plain and simple statement above is not also misconstrued. No insult is intended by this PG shotgun user, who does not consider himself "walking death". I do take my PG shotgun out every few months and fire a few mags full of full power 00 buck in order to use up old ammo, confirm function, and keep up my own skill. No problem doing so at the private club I am a member of.
The shotgun for me is a special weapon. My own HD hierarchy begins with the handgun, which is what is most likely to be at hand if something goes bump in the night. Next up, is my CMP Inland M1 carbine. The shotgun is third in line.

jojo200517
July 25, 2009, 12:16 AM
I can usually average about 22 out of 25 from the hip at the skeet range, it really annoys the other shooters that are just trying to hit them from the shoulder. On the trap range it goes down to about 15 out of 25. After tens of thousands of rounds its kinda natural to know where your shotgun shoots from almost any position. LOL yeah we refer to your type as a show off at my gun club. Do you do it from the hip with a full stock or do ya pull out the pistol grip only gun?

If you want real stares and strange looks get a top folding stock and a short barrel and go skeet shooting, and hey if you wanna go to pistol grip just fold it up.

22_Shooter
July 25, 2009, 10:29 PM
So what exactly is the point of the competition being propositioned in the OP?

I mean, I could understand if there were people outright saying that a PGO shotgun is far superior to a full stocked shotgun in every way possible. Offering them an opportunity to back up that claim would make sense.

I don't come around this board often, so maybe I've missed it, but I haven't seen any PGO shotgun users claiming the above.

I gather that most people who buy/use PGO shotguns realize that they are, for the most part, a novelty.

What's the harm?

I just picked up my first pump, and when ordering some other stuff from Brownells for it, I tacked on a Hogue Tamer PG. Purely for poops-n-giggles.

I'm not going to throw out the original stock or anything, or claim the PGO setup is vastly greater than a normal stock..........and as much as I look at guns like tools........I still like to have some fun with then, in a safe manner, of course.

There's plenty of parts/accessories in the gun world that do nothing to improve actual performance to a firearm. That doesn't mean they won't have a use for someone, somewhere. Even if it is just for fun.

Live and let live.

That's my take on it.:)


(Side note: I've heard many great things about Hogue furniture, but haven't actually used any Hogue products. After feeling the PG and forearm I picked up for my new Pardner..........I almost want to swap out the PG's on my AK's and AR's for Hogue grips. They feel awesome.)

Badger Arms
July 25, 2009, 10:51 PM
With notable exceptions, the pro-PGO crowd seems to be pretty talkative, but not very 'showative'. Shooting both extensively, I can say that, without hesitation, even an average shotguner will out-gun a PGO expert any day of the week.

amd6547
July 25, 2009, 10:59 PM
I use the Hogue overmold forend on my PG shotgun, and find it far superior to other forends I have used. In fact, it is particularly effective in helping control the PG shotgun.
I also have the matching Hogue buttstock for those non-PG occasions.
Yes, a full stocked shotgun is superior to the PG shotgun in "most" situations, and easier for the novice to master.
But, if a full-stocked shotgun carrying bad guy comes in my house at 2am, unfamiliar with the layout of my place, he is in serious trouble if I am waiting with my PG shotgun. And what if the situation were reversed? I see a bad guy coming through my door at zero dark thirty carrying a PG shotgun...do I think "Oh, it's just a PG shotgun, my full stocked shotgun is so far superior, I have nothing to worry about..." I think not.

22-rimfire
July 26, 2009, 12:07 AM
I don't know about a 12 ga with buck shot... sounds painful to say the least.

When shooting from "the hip" are you actually cradling the gun just below your chest and "pointing" it or actually shooting from belt level or the classic "hip" as in the location you would shoot a six-shooter?

At one time I was pretty good pointing a 22 semi-auto rifle at targets to about 10-15 yds and coming close or very close. Used to practice on christmas light bulbs and stopped due to the glass issue as a kid. You could do the same thing with golf balls, tennis balls, shotgun shells whatever. Certainly a stationary man sized target would not be that difficult at that range. There is no recoil involved, so you can adjust as you need to with a followup shot. I think it would be easier with a rifle than a shotgun due to the recoil issue. It is the classic double tap approach. Maybe 20 ga shotgun but I don't want a pistol grip on the thing.

amd6547
July 26, 2009, 09:14 AM
Mine has the SpeedFeed chickenhead PG on it, which looks like a traditional buttstock that has been sawn off...it handles recoil much better and allows the use of my mossberg's safety.
I hold my PG shotgun at mid-chest level with a firm forward pressure on the forend and a steadying slight pressure to the rear on the pistol grip.. I point using the left, pump hand. I use standard slugs and full power 00 buck and it is not painful at all. The forward pressure on the Hogue forend and the chickenhead pistol grip do a fine job of mitigating recoil

Dave McCracken
July 26, 2009, 09:56 AM
22 shooter, the challenge I posted is basically a means of finding out who is telling the truth.

I'm, much to my dismay, rather a public figure these days. Some of the folks I shoot with are contributing members here.

Other folks I run across have googled "Shotguns" and tripped over the reams of stuff I've written.

Google BA/UU/R some time and note how many languages that turns up in now. Last count I did, four besides English.

So, if I'm a poseur and liar about shotguns, it should be obvious.

To everyone that knows shotgunning.

And the reason I'm so adamant about the relative ineffectiveness of PGO shotguns is my experience.

Out of 300 shooters or so in the original post, NONE did nearly as well with a PGO/folded folding stock as with a standard stock. Neither has anyone since, even if they have extensive experience and practice religiously.

That's real world data, not Net fantasies.

amd6547, I do not believe you.

Nobody, including yours truly, can shoot only a little every few months and maintain peak skills.

And not locking the forward elbow,IME, means the shot hitting high and left.

The ball is in your court....

Southern Rebel
July 26, 2009, 10:33 AM
Everytime I see comments from an individual touting their shooting abilities on a range and their numerous awards and their challenges to PGO shooters to come and shoot against them in a contest, I am reminded of the movie "The Dirty Dozen".

Their is a pompous army general who requested a "review" of his men in their finest attire and the bogus general inspecting them turns to the officer and says, "very pretty, general, very pretty - but can they fight?"

I guess AMD we need the same privilege of letting them defend their choice of a stocked shotgun and then we will choose a tank - then deride them for their choice of a "useless" weapon against a far superior one!

We could even turn it into a Ponzi scheme of ridiculing guns as being useless, starting at the bottom with a pellet gun and allowing each succeeding layer of upsmanship. This would allow us to eliminate the 22's, 32's, 9 mm's, 40's, 45's, 44 mags, and on and on until the ultimate winner is maybe standing in a missile silo with the ultimate nuclear weapon and a button to push.

The point being that if you ain't the guy holding the ultimate button, there will always be someone with a weapon less efficient than yours and someone with a weapon more efficient. There is no ultimately better weapon (sorry Glock guys - somebody had to tell ya', and by the way there ain't no Santa either!).

If I were really on a high road, I would never ridicule a fellow gunowner who has chosen a 22 pistol as his/her weapon for personal defense and tell him that it is useless and a stupid choice. It certainly wouldn't be my choice and I would feel free to express that opinion, but not in such a demeaning way that I would close his mind to further discussions.

amd6547
July 26, 2009, 11:38 AM
There is no reason to accuse anyone of lying, which is counter to the high ethical standards of The High Road.
I have never claimed the superiority of the PG shotgun, in fact I have quite plainly stated the opposite.
I am no professional shooter or competitor. I am a 52 year old family man who must pay for every round I shoot, who has been shooting since the age of 4 or 5 when my WWII veteran Father put a single shot 22 rifle loaded with a CB cap in my hands.
The shotgun is a tertiary weapon for me...I much prefer the handgun and semi-auto carbine for my particular HD/SD needs. In some situations, the shotgun has it's uses, but I largely prefer the carbine. While I own both an AK and an AR, my CMP M1 carbine is my preferred long arm for HD.
Still, I own a Remington Model 11 semi auto 12ga riot gun, and a Mossberg 500 equipped with the chickenhead PG. I shoot both very well. When I stand 20 feet in front of the target and pull the trigger on my Mossberg, the 00 buck hits where I am pointing. I cycle through the ammo in the mag, reload and do it agian, and move on to the carbine and the handgun. Good enough for me.
We all make our own choices for SD weapons. If you don't like PG shotguns, don't use them. But don't try to tell me they don't work for the use I put mine to and accuse me of lying about it.

swampboy
July 26, 2009, 03:17 PM
I don't see how anybody could have been offended by Mr McCracken's commentary or tone. I've found his posts, and I've read pretty much all of them over the years, to always be well written and informative. If his tone comes across as "fatherly", and sometimes it does, I find that tone to be a welcome enhancement to his writing style. I also assume that that tone (while sometimes "fatherly", is never condescending) has apparently been earned over a lifetime of shotgunning.

While I'm at it, it deserves to be mentioned that I've thoroughly enjoyed Mr Lapin's posts over the years as well.

FWIW, my own (although short-lived) experiments with PGO SG's have been unpleasant. Mr M DID allow that a certain degree of proficiency can be achieved with a PGO SG, albeit requiring of much more time and effort than with a standard gun. I think his colorful challenge was more to make a point than anything, although I believe he could probably back it up if he needed to.

amd6547
July 26, 2009, 04:40 PM
You, of course, have not been called a liar...Nothing fatherly there. I have been nothing but reasonable throughout.
I have used three different PG's...The Choate, the factory Mossberg, and the rubber Pachmayr Vindicator. That was across several decades of shooting, though the Choate M16 style grip was my least favorite, belonging to my shooting buddy. He, by the way, carries his Choate equipped PG Mossberg slung under his M65 field jacket along with his Browning Hi Power when he checks out his property...anyone would be in serious trouble if he shot at them with either. I have also used a folder, both folded and open.
Compared to all of those, the SpeedFeed chickenhead is a completely different experience.
Have any of you PG doubters tried a witness protection style chickenhead grip? If the answer is no, then what is your frame of reference to question it's performance? It handles recoil better, it points better, it is superior in every way other than making absolute minimum length.

Jack2427
July 26, 2009, 08:39 PM
What Dave said ++++++. I have lugged weapons professionally since my 17th birthday. Lugged them over 4 major land masses, I can see only one use for a non traditional stock SG, carrying them in a vehicle, vessel or aircraft and deploying the folding stock ASAP after emerging therefrom.
I have killed my bear, a near record Brownie in AK in 95. Put him down with a single shot 45/70 from 35 feet-feet not yards. I will never hunt bear again, they are magnificant animals, and I have had my moment. But I have a healthy respect for any bear, Black, Brown, Grizz, whatever-even a Panda-I don't know what a Panda can do, but I don't want to find out(yeah I know, they are really not bears).
I know, absolutely, what must be done to stop a charging hostile bear, and that is a brain or spine shot with a deep penetrating slug. This on an animal that could weigh over half a ton(quite a bit over), and is moving at 30 MPH with no effort at all.
Somehow to me this lets out a PGO shotgun, because it calls for precision shooting, absolute precision. And it calls for penetrating a massive brain pan that can take direct hits from many weapons without fracturing, and penetrating absolutely massive muscle structure of the back. I just don't see this from a PGO SG.
I do see a shotgun loaded with sabot slugs doing it, placed with precision from a rifled barrel using a really hard slug. I do see a 45/70 doing it with the appropriate hard slug, I even see a 45-44 caliber handgun doing it with the proper load/bullet placed with precision.
And a PGO shotgun is the anthisis of precision. Any accuracy with a PGO is trick shooting, and while the Oakley lady, and many others are unreal in their ability, I have never seen or heard of any of them use a PGO.
Early in my LE career I was issued an Ithaca Auto-Burglar gun, a really sawed off 20 gauge double. We were to stake out a supermarket that was going to be robbed. It fit nicely under my apron-thats right I was to impersonate a store employee and hang around the registers with a mop-and my guns.
It worked, really worked, at a range of less than 2 feet, any further and it would have been really iffy.
Sorry PGO guys, I am sure that some of you are quite good at trick shooting, but tricks can fail. My guns can't.

Dave McCracken
July 26, 2009, 10:14 PM
For the record....

AMD, I did NOT call you a liar and I'm not doing it now..

I do not believe you when you say you can be effective shooting only a few rounds every few months. I don't believe anyone can.

I believe you are mistaken rather than blowing smoke.

And yes, I have tried out a Witness Protection style grip and regard it as more comfortable than the neoprene jobs, but it's still not as good as a standard stock, IMO.

Were I required to have a PGO for some weird reason, it'd more likely be that style.

Jack, thanks for your input. I did fire a 20 gauge Auto Burglar once. Vicious little kicker and at 3 yards, devastating.

It took several seconds to get that thing back under control for the second barrel. I declined furhter testing.

Let me say this. If someone, for whatever reason, wants to play around with a PGO for fun, I shan't cavil.

But, when we're talking tools, the PGO is not the first or best pick for almost every mission or shooter..

MAX100
July 26, 2009, 11:30 PM
How many shots will fired in a home defense situation two at the most maybe. Would I use a PGO shotgun for HD sure.

Many use only a handgun for home defense.

I can hit man size moving target a lot easier aiming a PGO shotgun than a handgun.

Some get bent out of shape when talking about PGO shotguns.

GC

shiftyer1
July 27, 2009, 12:40 AM
I currently own a mossberg 500 pgo shotgun. I bought it and an 870 as a package deal for the price and because I loved playing with one as a teenager. I keep it as a truck gun. I can hit 2 liter bottles from 15-20 feet with birdshot most of the time if i'm taking my time. Would I use it in a pinch.....yes. Would I recommend it........NO. Nowdays they must be making birdshot more powerful because the recoil seems to bother me more when I shoot it. lol Anyway for me personally I can shoot a whole lot better and more comfortably with a full stock.

I am looking to swap it for a full stock so if anyone in the austin tx area needs a pgo stock for a mossberg 500a 12ga and would like to swap for a full buttstock let me know. It just ain't my thing. Must be my age.

22_Shooter
July 27, 2009, 04:38 AM
What Dave said ++++++. I have lugged weapons professionally since my 17th birthday. Lugged them over 4 major land masses, I can see only one use for a non traditional stock SG, carrying them in a vehicle, vessel or aircraft and deploying the folding stock ASAP after emerging therefrom.
I have killed my bear, a near record Brownie in AK in 95. Put him down with a single shot 45/70 from 35 feet-feet not yards. I will never hunt bear again, they are magnificant animals, and I have had my moment. But I have a healthy respect for any bear, Black, Brown, Grizz, whatever-even a Panda-I don't know what a Panda can do, but I don't want to find out(yeah I know, they are really not bears).
I know, absolutely, what must be done to stop a charging hostile bear, and that is a brain or spine shot with a deep penetrating slug. This on an animal that could weigh over half a ton(quite a bit over), and is moving at 30 MPH with no effort at all.
Somehow to me this lets out a PGO shotgun, because it calls for precision shooting, absolute precision. And it calls for penetrating a massive brain pan that can take direct hits from many weapons without fracturing, and penetrating absolutely massive muscle structure of the back. I just don't see this from a PGO SG.
I do see a shotgun loaded with sabot slugs doing it, placed with precision from a rifled barrel using a really hard slug. I do see a 45/70 doing it with the appropriate hard slug, I even see a 45-44 caliber handgun doing it with the proper load/bullet placed with precision.
And a PGO shotgun is the anthisis of precision. Any accuracy with a PGO is trick shooting, and while the Oakley lady, and many others are unreal in their ability, I have never seen or heard of any of them use a PGO.
Early in my LE career I was issued an Ithaca Auto-Burglar gun, a really sawed off 20 gauge double. We were to stake out a supermarket that was going to be robbed. It fit nicely under my apron-thats right I was to impersonate a store employee and hang around the registers with a mop-and my guns.
It worked, really worked, at a range of less than 2 feet, any further and it would have been really iffy.
Sorry PGO guys, I am sure that some of you are quite good at trick shooting, but tricks can fail. My guns can't.

You're reply makes me think that you read:

A) That someone recommended a PGO shotgun for bear hunting.
B) That someone said a PGO shotgun is the epitome of precision.

I've seen neither in this thread.


You say you "only see one use for a non-traditionally stocked SG." But who are you to say what use something has, to someone else? No one, as far as that is concerned.

amd6547
July 27, 2009, 06:50 AM
Well Dave, that is certainly more polite. Rather than lying, I am now mistaken...
If I were a professional lawman with a survival and job performance stake in my PG shotgun shooting ability, I would no doubt practice a lot more. No doubt, there.
However, I am not. I am a 52 year old truck driver who takes my, and my families self defense seriously. As I said, I also consider the shotgun, either stocked or otherwise to be a tertiary weapon. I shoot many more rounds through my handgun and carbine than my shotguns.
Call it my "mutant talent", if you will, but I have very good abilities with firearms...of all types. I am able to hit with my PG shotgun at what I consider reasonable and realistic ranges...25yds and less for the PG Mossberg. That's all I care about. I am much more likely to use my Beretta 92FS or my M1 carbine, they give me the ability to apply accurate fire from point blank to 100yds (yes, the Beretta also, I like to shoot pistols out to 100yds).
I only get involved in these PG shotgun debates because of the blanket dismissal and insulting tone posted by those who are unable to employ them properly, when I have no problem doing so. The stocked shotgun IS a superior weapon. But, for me at least, and a few others here, the PG shotgun is also a superior weapon...Particularly for close range indoors SD.
Should a complete novice buy a PG shotgun and call themselves well armed, having never practiced with SD ammo, or learned the proper technique? Of course not. Is it within the realm of possibility that a decent shot having fired the PG shotgun over a period of decades can put buckshot on target at reasonable ranges? Certainly.
Let us just agree to disagree. I don't think we are really that far apart in our opinion.

dom1104
July 27, 2009, 08:23 AM
The stocked shotgun IS a superior weapon. But, for me at least, and a few others here, the PG shotgun is also a superior weapon...Particularly for close range indoors SD.


uh...ok whatever my head cant get around this whole argument.


In my opinion, there is really no reason for PG shotguns at all, with the high quality folding stocks available, their only benefit, which was storage is removed.

Also, what difference does it make wether the weapon is "primary" "secondary" or "Tertiary"?

I would like all of my weapons no matter what order I pick them up in to be at the top of their game.

Not to mention, if I was not at home, and an invader came at my wife, I would not like her 104 lb body to have to deal with my "tertiary" weapon, a PGO shotgun.

Thats just my opinion, but really, going against McCracken in a shotgun argument is something I cant do for another , oh I dunno, 900 THOUSAND shells.

PJR
July 27, 2009, 09:13 AM
We've been around this PGO discussion many times before. My advice is to ignore the advice of anyone and find out for yourself. Buy a PGO, install it and run a few hundred rounds through the gun and see if it works for you.

There may be some people who can successfully employ them that doesn't mean everyone can or should. I have yet to see anyone with a PGO shoot it as well as a full stocked shotgun no matter how much they've practiced with it. But then everyone shoots better at the keyboard.

The PGO does make the shotgun more compact but so does a folding stock or a shorter barrel. If storage space is the concern I'll choose my 14" barrel with a full stock as it is significantly better than a PGO and not much larger.

Guns and more
July 27, 2009, 10:06 AM
There is a place for the folding or stock-less shotgun, but these are for very special, very limited circumstances.
I agree.
Like maneuvering in dark narrow spaces in a house.
That's what mine is for.
I don't shoot skeet or birds.
If I did, I'd get a full stock.



I've seen people selling "The ultimate home defense shotgun." When you read the ad, it's a single shot with full furniture. HUH?

If storage space is the concern I'll choose my 14" barrel with a full stock as it is significantly better than a PGO and not much larger.
I could be wrong, but I thought 18" was the legal limit for a shotgun. A court might frown on your 14"er.

rbernie
July 27, 2009, 10:17 AM
A court might frown on your 14"er.You can legally have an SBS if you pay Uncle Sam his taxes and submit to the paperwork drill.

Like maneuvering in dark narrow spaces in a house.
That's what mine is for.
Ask yourself - what do the guys who get paid to maneuver in dark narrow spaces of a house, and who could chose any weapon suitable for that purpose, use? Is it a PGO shotgun?

SN13
July 27, 2009, 10:19 AM
We're hoping he has all the proper paperwork regarding the 14".

SN13
July 27, 2009, 10:21 AM
Ask yourself - what do the guys who get paid to maneuver in dark narrow spaces of a house, and who could chose any weapon suitable for that purpose, use? Is it a PGO shotgun?

no, it's not a PGO, it's a sub-machine gun... but I'm sorry, a $300 mossy is easier to acquire than a $20,000 MP5. :)

dirt_j00
July 27, 2009, 10:21 AM
MP5?

Justin
July 27, 2009, 10:57 AM
I hold my PG shotgun at mid-chest level with a firm forward pressure on the forend and a steadying slight pressure to the rear on the pistol grip.. I point using the left, pump hand. I use standard slugs and full power 00 buck and it is not painful at all.

Mid-chest level from one presumable index point on your body? So, what do you do in the event you have to shoot around a barricade/wall? (http://lh3.ggpht.com/_VMAL7N47J4k/ShXuvQeUsSI/AAAAAAAABcM/OxlIBpjNYp4/s720/DSC01616.JPG) What do you do if you have to shoot through a low or high port that requires you to shoot from an unusual or improvised position?

And, if you're so firmly convinced that PGO shotguns are useful, why not take Dave up on his challenge, or, if travel costs are prohibitive, design set up, and with a shot timer, make a run through your course of fire and post video of it on YouTube?

If you were to make the plans for your Course of Fire available to everyone, then others could set up the same exact stage and make runs through it with their firearms as well, post videos of them, as well as their times.

Or, if that's too much, hunt down a local Steel Challenge Match (http://steelchallenge.com/), and have someone shoot video of your runs. You can then upload them to YouTube and post your scores here. SCSA matches are held nation wide, and the stages are exactly the same anywhere you go, so it would be very easy to use SCSA as a base metric to get an idea of the relative effectiveness of everyone's chosen platform.

rbernie
July 27, 2009, 11:51 AM
no, it's not a PGO, it's a sub-machine gun...Actually, most of 'em use M4s or M4 clones. With full stocks.

amd6547
July 27, 2009, 12:00 PM
I could do that, or I could run the same course with my M1 carbine and "prove" that it is superior to a stocked shotgun...
I mean, really.
Use what you like, as will I. There is no reason to prove anything to anybody. But if it is posted that a PG is impossible to use effectively to the point of being virtually worthless, I will, in the face of being called a liar and mistaken, politely disagree.

Justin
July 27, 2009, 12:09 PM
I could do that, or I could run the same course with my M1 carbine and "prove" that it is superior to a stocked shotgun...

Well, why not run an M1 Carbine? If you are indeed better at using an M1 carbine, why wouldn't that be your go-to gun?

But if it is posted that a PG is impossible to use effectively to the point of being virtually worthless, I will, in the face of being called a liar and mistaken, politely disagree.

If you make such a claim, and others question it, then the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the effectiveness that you claim. Furthermore, I don't see what the problem is with quantifying in some manner the effectiveness of a person's ability to use one particular platform and compare it against other platforms. You've claimed that you're "effective" with a PGO shotgun. Some of us are curious as to what the definition of "effective" is. How do you quantify that? How does it stack up against other platforms? And if it doesn't stack up well, then what's the primary driving point for choosing one as a defensive weapon?

Lord knows that I couldn't have been described as able to effectively employ any weapon at the first three gun match I attended. But I took the lessons I learned there and built on them. That's all we're looking for here. If you have knowledge or skills that are above average, then why not demonstrate them so that we might all learn? I mean, there are over fifty videos on YouTube of me running the courses of fire at various matches. Some of them I tank badly. Some I do alright. But I'm at least willing to put the stuff out there for others to see and critique.

rbernie
July 27, 2009, 12:13 PM
But if it is posted that a PG is impossible to use effectively to the point of being virtually worthless, I will, in the face of being called a liar and mistaken, politely disagree. Interestingly, I do not think that was exactly what was stated. What was stated was that, in a course of fire simulating field/sporting or defense usage, the PGO shotgun will be harder to use and less effective than a traditional stocked shotgun. That worldview has been determined by professional trainers over time, and has yet to be demonstrated as false. Anyone who claims that a PGO shotgun can be more effective than a stocked shotgun for anything but carryin' has likely never invested equal time in both or is obfuscating the truth. You get to decide which of those two fit.

That does not say that PGOs are not fun, that they are evil or bad, that they do not have specialty roles for breeching or somesuch, or that nobody can shoot them effectively at all. If you have one and enjoy shooting it - that's great. It's all good, when playing around on the range.

But there is empirical training data to indicate that, given equal training time with both PGO and stocked shotguns, stocked shotguns can be used more effectively for SD and field. And trying to convince folks that a PGO is more effective for SD than a stocked shotgun smacks of recklessness that is not particularly High Road.

If you're good with a PGO shotgun, by your definition - that's terrific. But your definition of 'good' and those folks who use shotguns in anger are clearly different.

Justin
July 27, 2009, 12:32 PM
I take it as a given that a PGO shotgun is going to be much less effective at quickly engaging targets in pretty much every scenario one could think of short of contact distance in a phone booth.

What I'm interested in seeing is just how wide the gap is between PGO-shotguns and properly stocked ones. In my experience, I would submit that difference would be much more dramatic than some would like to admit.

6-gunfun
July 27, 2009, 12:41 PM
i have hit targets with a hip shot my best was a rabbit running through brush i turend fired and it was dead however that was with a .410 cilinder choke and 7 1/2 shot it spreads so far its hard 2 miss

PJR
July 27, 2009, 02:26 PM
You can legally have an SBS if you pay Uncle Sam his taxes and submit to the paperwork drill.
Or live in a jurisidiction where they are treated like any other shotgun providing the barrels are not cut short but came that way from the factory. :)

amd6547
July 27, 2009, 02:53 PM
If you apply coventional thinking to an unconventional weapon, you will never see it's value.

rbernie
July 27, 2009, 03:01 PM
If you insist that your playing field is somehow different from everybody elses', you should be prepared for the scoffing and guffawing that follows. :)

amd6547
July 27, 2009, 03:33 PM
I'll think about that the next time I am laying 00 buck patterns on target at 20 feet.
You ought to read your sig line...

Justin
July 27, 2009, 05:05 PM
If you apply coventional thinking to an unconventional weapon, you will never see it's value.

Oh? Allow me to re-post Dave's initial challenge:

And for those doubtful of the validity of this opinion or mine, here's a challenge. It's the same one I started on TFL.

Any PG only fan living close to Central MD is invited to a shootoff.

We'll shoot your COF.

We'll use the ammo of your choice.

YOU can use any PG only shotgun you want to,with any accessories up to belt feed and lazer sights.

If that isn't unconventional shooting, I don't know what is. Dave explicitly stated in his challenge that the PGO shotgun advocates could design the course of fire, use any sort of ammunition they wished, and could also use nearly any accessory they see fit. (Presumably this would preclude one accessorizing their PG shotgun with a stock. :D)

His rules are probably the most open I've ever seen for a shooting match. He is, frankly, giving you the benefit of the doubt, and allowing you every competitive advantage you might wish. I hardly see how that's "conventional."

If there is some sort of unconventional use for a PGO shotgun that you are aware of, then design a course of fire that allows the advantages of a PGO Shotgun to shine while demonstrating the weak points of other shotguns. It shouldn't be that hard to do.

Design the course of fire. Post a diagram online that stipulates how many targets of what size and at what distances, how many rounds, and what the scoring rules are. Run the course of fire with a PGO Shotgun and a shot timer. Post your times and scores, as well as a video on YouTube. Others of us will use your diagram to construct the same stages on our local ranges, and run through them and post our videos, scores, and times. I think the data would be illuminating.

You stated that you believe a pistol-gripped shotgun to have value. If you perceive the weapon to have some sort of advantage over other firearm configurations, you should have no problem demonstrating that for all of us to see.

MAX100
July 27, 2009, 05:33 PM
Oh? Allow me to re-post Dave's initial challenge:


Dave can probably out shoot most of us anyway. His shooting skills have been a big part of his career. I don't have the time shoot as often as he does.

I don't think anyone is arguing that a PGO shotgun is faster than the stocked shotgun. The question is: is it too slow in skilled hands to be used in a HD situation. I say no.


GC

Justin
July 27, 2009, 05:38 PM
I say no.

Without actual proof, this is just your opinion. PG shotgun advocates continually make vague references to situations in which such a configuration is advantageous. All I'm asking for is an honest demonstration. I've done so in multiple threads covering this topic, and have yet to see one person make even a shade-tree attempt to demonstrate the utility of a PG shotgun.

waterhouse
July 27, 2009, 05:45 PM
Dave can probably out shoot most of us anyway. His shooting skills has been a big part of his career. I don't have the time shoot as often as he does.

I believe at one point (he can correct me if I get this wrong) Dave said that if he ran the course of fire with a stocked gun he would win, and that if he switched guns with the other shooter he would likely lose. In other words, even with all of his experience, he felt that the stocked shotgun was such an advantage that it would negate a large gap in shooter skills.

ETA: Search skills paid off:

We could shoot your COF etc, and I'd win handily. We could then swap guns, and you'd trounce me. They're THAT much of a disadvantage.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=987672&postcount=11

MAX100
July 27, 2009, 06:09 PM
Dave said that if he ran the course of fire with a stocked gun he would win, and that if he switched guns with the other shooter he would likely lose.

If he is shooting from the hip he probably would lose. I have no problem aiming and controlling a PGO shotgun. Just like I don't have a problem aiming and controlling revolver.


GC

amd6547
July 27, 2009, 06:13 PM
Here is my COF...
2:00am, my darkened house...
Bad guy steps into the light cast by the streetlight across the street that slightly illuminates my living room. He is 10 feet away and I can clearly see he is armed.
He is unaware of my presence.
I am confident I can take this shot and hit where I want 10 times out of 10.

Robert
July 27, 2009, 06:21 PM
Can you diagram that for us so we can set up a shoot house?

Jorg Nysgerrig
July 27, 2009, 06:37 PM
Can you diagram that for us so we can set up a shoot house?

Done.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=102298&

PJR
July 27, 2009, 06:53 PM
Interesting that the man who declares the PGO is "an exceptional weapon" and claims "mutant talent" with firearms is shortening his engagement distances for the PGO as the thread progresses.

Limited utility is all I claim for the PG shotgun, but, within that limited utility, it is an exceptional weapon.

I am able to hit with my PG shotgun at what I consider reasonable and realistic ranges...25yds and less for the PG Mossberg.

Sounds reasonable, even "mutant" for a guy who only takes his PGO out every few months.

But then he says....

I'll think about that the next time I am laying 00 buck patterns on target at 20 feet.
Less than 7 yards.

He is 10 feet away and I can clearly see he is armed.
He is unaware of my presence.
I am confident I can take this shot and hit where I want 10 times out of 10.
Now down to just over 3 whole yards. Yeah, that is certainly an "exceptional weapon" wielded by someone with "mutant talent."

Wow. I am impressed. :rolleyes:

dom1104
July 27, 2009, 07:19 PM
hmm, I agree with the majority that stocked shotguns are superiour, but I am starting to get the feeling we are all piling on amd, lets not crucify the poor guy. we ARE all on the same side after all.

there are some truths we hold to be self-evident.

1. stocked shotguns are superiour and are how the shotgun is designed to be used.

2. a PGO shotgun turns it into either a hip fired weapon, or a weapon that is impossible to be aimed, or a large, cumbersome handheld weapon that must be brought back to be reloaded.

but, CAN it deliver a amazing payload to said unaware home invader on the lawn? <who hopefully isnt a guy with an umbrella picking up a dog terd>


Sure. at ten feet I can hit a guy with my pistol with my weak hand, just point shooting.

MAX100
July 27, 2009, 07:29 PM
a PGO shotgun turns it into either a hip fired weapon, or a weapon that is impossible to be aimed

Maybe you have a problem aiming one.


GC

amd6547
July 27, 2009, 07:43 PM
Well, I have stated in this interminable thread that I consider the strength of my PG shotgun to be indoor self defense. Thus my COF.
But, I have fired my various incarnations of the PG shotgun at ranges out to 25yds using both full power slugs and 00 buckshot, over several decades and I hit what I point at.
Nice picture, by the way, except I don't use a pistol grip like that, nor do I hold it in front of my face. Not too big on hats at 2am, and I am certainly not a stick figure...In fact, in the words of Neil Young "I got a pot belly, it's not too big, gets in my way, when I'm driving my rig".
I have posted this before, but here is a pic of my PG shotgun...
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/P1000677.jpg
...And a pic of what I would be much more likely to use...It has a PG also, and I would probably use it in folded mode indoors...
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h61/amd6547/P1000747.jpg

MAX100
July 27, 2009, 09:08 PM
Here is my PGO Breacher shotgun, Pardner Protector.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/MAX100/PardnerPGO-1.jpg

A rack of Military Pistol grip 870s posted here on THR.

http://www.fototime.com/005449D572D85CE/standard.jpg



GC

Dave McCracken
July 27, 2009, 09:48 PM
A couple things....

Jorg, you win. That's funny.

As to the utility of PGO shotguns, let's follow Justin's idea and compare/contrast our times on a standard COF with or without stocks on our shotguns.

conw
July 27, 2009, 10:27 PM
I gather that most people who buy/use PGO shotguns realize that they are, for the most part, a novelty.

What's the harm?

As Dave said, most people he's met who buy/use them DON'T actually realize they are a novelty.

Why are you even taking up the discussion in a disagreeable manner if you agree with his premise?

His challenge, unanswered thus far (which speaks loudly) is an object lesson to people who might be considering one of these for serious uses because they saw it on TV.

If I were considering a PGO and didn't know better and came across this thread, I would consider it a favor. Yeah, his tone's "jaundiced" as he put it, but it's basically a public service announcement.

dom1104
July 27, 2009, 10:45 PM
now regarding that picture of PGO military shotguns, I pointed that out when the original guy posted that, and I was told the reason they were all PGO is that the military used them for breaching.

Which makes sense, the majority of those in the picture are breachers, with REAL breaching attachments, or mag tube standoffs etc.

there are a few in there that are odd ducks tho.

Southern Rebel
July 27, 2009, 11:24 PM
Nah, I have to agree with AMD. Some of don't have any fancy "courses to run" and matches in which to compete. What we have is a specific set of entry points to defend against unwanted invasions of our homes. I figure if my choice of weapons provides an absolute ability to stop that unwanted invasion, then it is a mute point as to whether my weapon would compete with your weapon under different challenges.

Now I do own other shotguns (with real stocks, actually!) that I use for recreational birdhunting and deer hunting. I have no interest in competitive shooting and view range trips as mostly necessary practice, not as a recreational trip. That doesn't mean that I don't respect the abilities and hobbies of those who do participate in other uses for guns.

I guess it kinda reminds me of trying to compare my beat-up old bike that I occasionally use for a quick trip downtown versus what Lance Armstrong uses for his vocation. Despite his skills and advanced equipment, it would be futile for him to try to persuade me to upgrade to his type of equipment. The two needs are just not comparable. While I am sure he could use his advanced equipment to do my occasional runs (definitely with more efficiency and grace), his demonstration would be for naught.

Now it is time for all us shotgunners to play nice and unite and go after all those uninformed gunowners who think they can defend themselves with 22's, 25's, 32's, and ......(well, we need to decide at what level to stop). Naw, I guess I will get booted off the team again because I occasionally pocket a 32 keltec when I ride that "worthless" bike. :banghead:

Geez, I guess the only way I can come out as a winner is to join the radical muslims as a suicide bomber - but with my previous history, I would likely end up with not enough explosive fire power and just shoot my eye out (or some other necessary bodily part!:cuss:

waterhouse
July 28, 2009, 09:45 AM
I guess it kinda reminds me of trying to compare my beat-up old bike that I occasionally use for a quick trip downtown versus what Lance Armstrong uses for his vocation. Despite his skills and advanced equipment, it would be futile for him to try to persuade me to upgrade to his type of equipment.

I don't agree with this analogy at all. A better analogy would be to put you both on the exact same bike, except Lance isn't allowed to touch his handlebars during the race. Dave is actually agreeing to run his beat up bike (a stock, no frills 870) against Lance's super light weight racer (build any shotgun you want with any accessories you want, as long as it is PGO) and saying that he will win.

I understand that PGOs serve a purpose in armored cars and breaching roles and trekking through thick brush in bear country. They aren't useless. But I don't understand why someone would use one for home defense. I've heard the claim of "tight quarters" in small homes, but a stocked shotgun can be run at the same length as a PGO if need be:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/waterhouse/IMGP3279.jpg

I've shot using this hold and I've shot using a PGO. This is more stable because the forearm is trapping the stock for support.

Leadhead
July 28, 2009, 12:04 PM
I can't believe no one lives close to Dave who can take him up on his "challenge"

It is a generous proposition as "any course of fire" gives alot of advantage to the pgo challenger......I imagine a course of fire involving fitting the gun into a pack ( Dave you can remove your barrel to make it easier) :) and running 5 miles with a full load of camping gear pausing to hit a few clays at 25 yards or less every mile.

Mostly though I'd like to see how much slower the hits come at less then 25 yards......are we talking minutes,seconds or fractions of seconds?

Leadhead
July 28, 2009, 12:06 PM
As to the utility of PGO shotguns, let's follow Justin's idea and compare/contrast our times on a standard COF with or without stocks on our shotguns.

I like this idea Dave.

What exactly is a standard COF for shotgun defense?

Rshooter
July 28, 2009, 03:13 PM
Without actual proof, this is just your opinion. PG shotgun advocates continually make vague references to situations in which such a configuration is advantageous. All I'm asking for is an honest demonstration. I've done so in multiple threads covering this topic, and have yet to see one person make even a shade-tree attempt to demonstrate the utility of a PG shotgun.

Justin, I stated my case in my reply to Dave on page 2. If someone enters my home uninvited I will pull out my 870 in a pistol grip configuration. Chances are he will lose, even if he is a three gun master.

Jorg Nysgerrig
July 28, 2009, 03:23 PM
I guess it kinda reminds me of trying to compare my beat-up old bike that I occasionally use for a quick trip downtown versus what Lance Armstrong uses for his vocation. Despite his skills and advanced equipment, it would be futile for him to try to persuade me to upgrade to his type of equipment. The two needs are just not comparable. While I am sure he could use his advanced equipment to do my occasional runs (definitely with more efficiency and grace), his demonstration would be for naught.

It would be more like Lance Armstrong suggesting you try a bicycle instead of a unicycle. Lance would beat you while riding a bicycle but then lose to you when he raced riding the unicycle. Why? Because unicycles are for clowns. :)

Justin
July 28, 2009, 03:32 PM
What exactly is a standard COF for shotgun defense?

I don't think there's a standard one for shotgun defense, though some of the USPSA pistol classifiers (http://uspsa.org/classifiers/index.html) might be a good place to start.

Frankly, I'm giving serious thought to taking amd up on his proposed COF. A single IPSC target at ten feet, with the shooter starting behind a barricade that obscures the target: either a Bianchi Barricade or a standard IPSC wall. At the go signal, engage the target with one round of 00 buckshot.

Score the targets as you would a standard IPSC target, and post the time and hit factor.

Justin
July 28, 2009, 03:44 PM
Justin, I stated my case in my reply to Dave on page 2. If someone enters my home uninvited I will pull out my 870 in a pistol grip configuration. Chances are he will lose, even if he is a three gun master.

Luck and home court advantage are certainly good things to have on your side, but are not an effective replacement for good skills and the proper tools.

I never said a PGO shotgun wasn't deadly, but the question that I'd like to see answered is "What is the difference in practical employment of a PGO shotgun vs. a properly stocked one?"

The secondary question would be whether or not the step down in speed/performance is offset by the perceived advantages of having a smaller weapon.

earlthegoat2
July 28, 2009, 04:02 PM
12 Gauge is popular for steel shot waterfowl hunting. It's also known as a "do-everything" gauge, particularly among those who really know nothing about shotguns, and therefore aren't too picky about the guns they buy.


What was said here in a different post could also be applied to all those that insist on a PGO shotgun. Read something like this:

PGO shotguns are popular for home defense. Particularly among those who really know nothing about shotguns, and therefore aren't too picky about the guns they buy.

amd6547
July 28, 2009, 04:37 PM
Oh come now...there is no reason to go there. I happen to be very picky about my shooting equipment. That is why I also own a Remington Model 11 riot gun...A firearm designed by Browning at his most brilliant. A self loading shotgun made of machined steel which I shoot very well, and which I love (I must, it is my second one). Yet, when I have moved around my small two bed room house with my Model 11, it was quickly proven to my satisfaction that my PG Mossberg is a better choice indoors.
I ask again, If you encountered a bad guy at close range pointing a PG shotgun at your midsection, would you relax and say to yourself "PG shotguns are worthless weapons, I don't have anything to worry about"?

rbernie
July 28, 2009, 04:42 PM
If you encountered a bad guy at close range pointing a PG shotgun at your midsection, would you relax and say to yourself "PG shotguns are worthless weapons, I don't have anything to worry about"? Worthless? No. But less effective than a fully-stocked shotgun, especially against rapidly moving targets (of which I would do my best to emulate)? Absolutely.

amd6547
July 28, 2009, 04:51 PM
Non-answer.
Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is 20 feet away, locked in a firing stance with his PG shotgun pointing at you. Your stocked shotgun is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your 1911 cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that load of buckshot? You better get your family a good insurance policy.

Justin
July 28, 2009, 04:51 PM
I ask again, If you encountered a bad guy at close range pointing a PG shotgun at your midsection, would you relax and say to yourself "PG shotguns are worthless weapons, I don't have anything to worry about"?

Straw man argument. No one made the argument that being shot with a PGO shotgun would not cause a wound or death. The argument is that they are considerably slower to use and much harder to aim quickly and accurately than a shotgun with a proper stock.

Non-answer.
Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is 20 feet away, locked in a firing stance with his PG shotgun pointing at you. Your stocked shotgun is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your 1911 cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that load of buckshot? You better get your family a good insurance policy.

I love how all of the proposed scenarios involving PGO shotguns seem to have a built in requirement that the person wielding the PGO shotgun gets the drop on their intended target.

Jorg Nysgerrig
July 28, 2009, 05:15 PM
I ask again, If you encountered a bad guy at close range pointing a PG shotgun at your midsection, would you relax and say to yourself "PG shotguns are worthless weapons, I don't have anything to worry about"?
This question is absurd. It is as though you see an item's usefulness in a bizarre binary fashion where it is either completely worthless or equally effective to all other items of a similar purpose. Your criteria could be equally applied to a hot waffle iron swung by the cord, a Mason jar of sulfuric acid, or two rabid raccoons tied together at the tail and thrown bolo style. While I would certainly worry if anyone aimed said "weapons" at my midsection, I wouldn't consider any of those an effective choice for home defense. (The success of the DOD tests regarding infected raccoons in the 50's notwithstanding, of course.)

Your second scenario sounds like a Mad Lib.

Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is a number feet away, locked in a firing stance with his a weapon pointing at you. Your another weapon is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your a handgun cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that projectile from first weapon? You better an ominous warning.

Here's mine!

Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is 7 feet away, locked in a firing stance with his replica medieval cross bow pointing at you. Your AGM-114 is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your Magnum Research BFR in .45-70 cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that crossbow bolt? You better make sure your pet fish have one of those little vacation feeder things until your next of kin is notified and can come over to feed them.

Guns and more
July 28, 2009, 06:12 PM
We'll shoot for score, time decides ties
If I was in an open field, shooting at targets, I'd take a full stock shotgun too.
Or birds, or skeet, or trap (whatever the difference is).
I have my P/G shotgun for one purpose, negotiate corners and doorways, shots less than 20', inside a house, maybe in the dark.
I'll guarantee you're a better shot than I am. How does that help me when someone is breaking in? You're not gonna be there!
Do I want to lead with a gun too big to turn around in a doorway and risk having it jerked out of my hands?
I fail to understand why the anti's get all stirred up about MY choice. And right now, it's short barrel, P/G.
I'm just glad I still have the freedom to choose.

amd6547
July 28, 2009, 06:28 PM
Obviously, the plethora of ridiculing non-answers is a defacto admission that the PG shotgun at close range indoors is a fearsome weapon in the hands of one who knows how to shoot one.
I think we are done, here.

Southern Rebel
July 28, 2009, 06:29 PM
OK Jorq and AMD, you guys have finally nailed the answer I was looking for in these discussions. What it REALLY comes down to is the following:

Who has the drop on WHOM?

Can the dropee (???dropor???) hit what he is aiming at?

Does the weapon he carries have sufficient stopping power?

And to think we have wandered thru the "valley of the shadow of death" arguing about shooting trials, youtube videos, and who knows what else - and the whole time, somebody should have been telling me to just BE DANG SURE you are the one that gets the drop on the other guy!

I should have remembered that from my youthful days of watching Hopalong Cassidy, Kit Carson, Lash Larou, Roy Rogers, and all the rest of those guys who were constantly allowing the bad guys to get the drop on them.

I have reviewed my home defense setup and I find the following facts:

1. I have a dog and an alarm to let me know "he" is on his way in.

2. He has to come down a three foot wide hallway for about 15 feet and then choose between three different rooms as to where I await him. I feel the odds are in my favor to get the drop on him.

3. Our knowledgeable moderator (I readily admit to that part) has given assurances that OO buckshot is sufficient power in a close encounter.

4. I have practiced sufficiently with my woefully inadequate PGO such that I can without fail hit my target within the range of the aforementioned hallway.

Given all the above, I now feel secure in the knowledge that my PGO can handle this one special circumstance adequately. Now, if I move to a different home, I will agree to reassess all of the above. If I am outside the confines of the the above special circumstances, I will agree to assess whether to be accompanied by either my 357 SIG or 44 Magnum Redhawk or 45 Ruger or Remington 1100 (stocked) or 30 carbine or 223 Bushmaster or....
(Now I am sounding like my teenage years and girls - so many choices and so little time!)

(I just have this feeling that neither AMD nor I are ever gonna change our HD weapons, but I have to admit I have acquired some interesting and helpful information during these PGO discussions in spite of having to filter out a little bit of sarcasm. I guess that is like cowboy coffee - very invigorating, even if you have to filter out a few unusable grains!)

meytind
July 28, 2009, 06:38 PM
Let's say this bad guy has the drop on you, he is 7 feet away, locked in a firing stance with his replica medieval cross bow pointing at you. Your AGM-114 is in a low ready pointing off to the side, or you have your Magnum Research BFR in .45-70 cocked and locked in the holster...You really believe you will dodge that crossbow bolt? You better make sure your pet fish have one of those little vacation feeder things until your next of kin is notified and can come over to feed them.
I believe Jorg wins the thread.

amd6547
July 28, 2009, 06:55 PM
Sure, If you prefer absurd non-answer to rational discussion.
I prefer practicality, both in my shooting and my discussion. I really don't care who "wins" or "loses" this thread.
I believe that this final point we have so tortuously arrived at, enduring ridicule and threats of banning along the way, is the most revealing.
If you are facing a PG shotgun in a gun battle, you better be aware that you are facing a very serious threat. If you don't believe that, you are dead wrong.
Conversely, that same weapon in your hands, properly employed and with practice, can be an equally serious danger to someone who threatens your security.

9x19sig
July 28, 2009, 07:06 PM
PGO shotgun + low recoil buckshot + a little practice = you win

Justin
July 28, 2009, 07:15 PM
I prefer practicality, both in my shooting and my discussion.

Again, I reiterate, why not run some tests to determine the practical applicability of PGO shotguns vs. a properly stocked shotgun?

If the practicality is so self-evident to you, then proving it shouldn't be a big deal.

amd6547
July 28, 2009, 07:29 PM
Beginning the circle again, Justin? No one has ever claimed that a PG shotgun is superior to a stocked shotgun...this has been stated again and again. There has, finally been some grudging ackowledgement that the PG shotgun just may have it's place. Why not end it at that?

Justin
July 28, 2009, 07:42 PM
Because I'm genuinely curious as to why people are so willing to use a weapon for personal defense that they themselves admit is an inferior choice.

Leadhead
July 28, 2009, 08:15 PM
......software....no hardware.......software? hardware? dang it it's all so confusing!

Security is about what we are comfortable with.....if a guy is comfortable with his PGO shotgun then more power to him.....if another guy want's a full stock because he shoots better with it then I say more power to him!

If some other guy is happy with a baseball bat and doesn't dig firearms...well that's fine too.

Leadhead
July 28, 2009, 08:31 PM
Because I'm genuinely curious as to why people are so willing to use a weapon for personal defense that they themselves admit is an inferior choice.

Most people will never use a shotgun in self defense but having one handy does bring some peace of mind and if it's small it can be tucked away in inconspicuous places...

I think the argument a rises because the PGO haters tend to use terms like useless and doorstop etc which only proves their ignorance.

As Dave and others have mentioned there are special uses such as hiking, camping and fishing when you can't have a revolver ( like in Canada) as the PGO is more compact and lighter then a full stock. Or for specific forced entry requirements.

Bottom line is if it works for someone and they are comfortable with it for home defense then what's the problem?

They are also fun to shoot.

Mine's a birdshead and it works for me.

Rshooter
July 29, 2009, 08:24 AM
Justin, I answered your question and you avoided admitting that I answered your question with more questions.

Luck and home court advantage are certainly good things to have on your side, but are not an effective replacement for good skills and the proper tools.

I am properly trained with a pistol grip shotgun and it is the proper tool in some environments, as you could not deny my answer was correct.

I never said a PGO shotgun wasn't deadly, but the question that I'd like to see answered is "What is the difference in practical employment of a PGO shotgun vs. a properly stocked one?"

A PGO as we now both agree can be used much like a pistol in a home invasion environment where the stock of a shotgun may be unwanted. Gunners choice.

The secondary question would be whether or not the step down in speed/performance is offset by the perceived advantages of having a smaller weapon.

Yes I lose the option of a buttstroke but I am no longer in the Marines here but merely a disabled veteran.

rbernie
July 29, 2009, 08:49 AM
I've cleaned up this thread a bit, to try and keep it focused.

I don't think anyone is arguing that a PGO shotgun is faster than the stocked shotgun. The question is: is it too slow in skilled hands to be used in a HD situation. I say no.
Let's accept this as true. Doesn't matter if everyone buys into the virtues of the PGO - I'm going to accept them as valid for the purposes of asking the next logical question to this train of thought....

Waterhouse demonstrated that a conventional shotgun can be carried and used as you would a PGO shotgun, and in that mode the conventional shotgun will demonstrate all of the same virtues claimed for a PGO shotgun. But the conventionally-stocked shotgun can be fired as a shoulder-mounted long arm, while the PGO shotgun cannot.

So I ask - why choose a solution for HD that has a lesser capability (hip/point shooting only) when you can have a solution that allows both hip/point shooting if desired as well as shoulder-mounting shooting?

I can see how breaching and backpacking would place a premium on space/weight (making the PGO shotgun useful), but frankly my HD shotgun occupies the same space in the corner (or propped up between the bed and nightstand or however else I store it) regardless of the presence/absence of a buttstock.

Bottom line is if it works for someone and they are comfortable with it for home defense then what's the problem?
I don't think that I've seen much call in this thread to make PGO shotguns illegal or otherwise unaccessible. In fact, several folk have gone out of their way to express how PGO shotguns can have several uses and in general can be fun to shoot. But there seems to be a behavior on the part of the PGO proponents that insists that everybody accept their choice of PGO shotgun as the best possible choice for home defense, and that's where the rub comes in.

I find it interesting that the PGO proponents are crying 'foul' when all I've seen from the conventionally-stocked shotgun proponents is a willingness to accept the limited virtues of the PGO shotgun IF the PGO proponents will accept that their tool is severely limited in scope and utility. Seems to me that we keep going in circles because every time we almost have a truce, the (few) PGO protagonists have to throw gasoline on the fire by refusing to logically debate the issue and instead reverting to comments like this: Obviously, the plethora of ridiculing non-answers is a defacto admission that the PG shotgun at close range indoors is a fearsome weapon in the hands of one who knows how to shoot one.

Justin
July 29, 2009, 09:19 AM
Rshooter-

I didn't respond to you because the basic gist of your post was "Well, let's get in a gun fight at my house at 2 A.M. and see who comes out on top."

That's not an argument. It's not a presentation of fact, it's not an attempt to come up with even a shade-tree testing methodology to demonstrate the merits of PGO shotguns.

Your statements, so far as I've seen, pretty much boil down to re-iterating your level of self confidence in your chosen platform with a vaguely threatening undertone. That is, quite frankly, not helpful in the least. You like your shotgun and think you can successfully use it to defend yourself. That's great, I'm happy for you. Regardless, I'm not so convinced that they're useful and would like to see yet another person run a course of fire with one before making up my mind.


I find it very odd that when I question the utility of a PGO shotgun and ask for a demonstration of their usefulness, all of the fans of PGO shotguns act like I've insulted their manhood.

Robert
July 29, 2009, 10:00 AM
rbernie and Waterhouse are correct. A PGO shotgun can not do anything better than my full stock 590. And in fact my 590 is a more useful weapon to boot. Not only can I shoot it in a shortened method as shown by Waterhouse, but if need be I can shoulder and actually aim the weapon. By using that method I have not only made my full stock shotgun the same length, or close enough, as a PGO but I also retain better contol in more surface area helping control the recoil of the weapon. And then if I decide to shoulder mount the weapon I do not have to call for a cease fire to break out the tool box and mount a traditional stock. So why choose something that would seem to be less capable of doing the same job. If it works for you, then fine. But I just don't see the point. And if you trust your life to one why not take the challenge? That is far from a life or death situation.

waterhouse
July 29, 2009, 10:12 AM
I have my P/G shotgun for one purpose, negotiate corners and doorways, shots less than 20', inside a house, maybe in the dark.

Do I want to lead with a gun too big to turn around in a doorway and risk having it jerked out of my hands?

I posted a picture earlier. You can run the stocked shotgun around corners and doorways just as well as a PGO.

I fail to understand why the anti's get all stirred up about MY choice. And right now, it's short barrel, P/G.

No one here is trying to take your choice away. I'm simply trying to understand a real, actual reason why someone would choose a PGO for home defense. I asked this in the last thread and everyone said "for tight spaces" or "my living room is really small."

Since my stocked shotgun can be run as short as a PGO of the same barrel length, I don't understand this argument.

Leadhead
July 29, 2009, 12:49 PM
The simple answer waterhouse is that "my living room is very small" is not a good reason to run a PGO.

I think some people just like PGO's and are comfortable with that choice even though it is not what a professional would choose......when forced to justify this choice to others who consider it to be a poor choice they fumble with explenations of why they like their PGO and don't have enough confidence to just say " hey, it works for me and I feel good about it...."

Robert
July 29, 2009, 02:12 PM
Justin, I stated my case in my reply to Dave on page 2. If someone enters my home uninvited I will pull out my 870 in a pistol grip configuration. Chances are he will lose, even if he is a three gun master.
But guys I own one a folder and while I might not be able to beat Dave in a shotgun course with the stock folded I would meet him in my house at night with this gun.
What's the address?

Correia
July 29, 2009, 02:17 PM
Obviously, the plethora of ridiculing non-answers is a defacto admission that the PG shotgun at close range indoors is a fearsome weapon in the hands of one who knows how to shoot one.

So are nunchuks, but I'll keep the stock on my shotgun. :)

I think Jorg actually just won the internets.

Dr.Rob
July 29, 2009, 02:59 PM
I want those rabid raccoon bolas. Think they'd be more reliable than a Luger. Though the Luger is easier to clean. ;)

After screwing around with a PGO shotgun in the early 90's I 'thought' I wanted one. I even had the Pachmeyer grip and fore end in my shopping cart at my local Walmart... then I thought you know I only have ONE shotgun. And unlike changing barrels changing stocks takes a while and it's not like I am gonna hunt grouse with a hip shooting PGO. The Pachmeyer was even ON SALE... and by the time I got up front to the check out, I had decided to put it back.

If I had a second shotgun 'just for fun' and bear defense etc. maybe, maybe I'd put a PG on it, but I doubt it. (it would probably actually only get used in photoshoots) Better a "youth stock" thats a tad shorter with a thicker pad.

Southern Rebel
July 29, 2009, 03:22 PM
I find it interesting that the PGO proponents are crying 'foul' when all I've seen from the conventionally-stocked shotgun proponents is a willingness to accept the limited virtues of the PGO shotgun IF the PGO proponents will accept that their tool is severely limited in scope and utility

RBERNIE, I think if you did a detailed reading of anti-PGO comments on this subject, you will indeed find expressions of "doorstop" and "useless" in several comments. Now I understand that people who are inclined to make such statements of ignorance probably aren't that knowledgeable about guns and are just repeating concepts they have read while their were playing the forums and pretending to be all-knowing Ninjas, maybe even of the Mall species. :D

Other than Forum Ninjas, most of the comments are not much different than we see when discussions are ongoing about the pistol caliber size and related stopping power. Few of us would dspute that a 44 magnum bullet is a more effective answer to a hard skull than a 32 auto, but we give a little space for the 32 user - without insulting him (usually). That space, I believe, is what is needed in this thread.

It is certainly more High Road to just say an individual has chosen a tougher path to his ultimate goal and may have to put in more practice and accept certain limitations, but he can arrive at his goal if he is willing to pay the extra price. (The same speech that I gave my son when he dropped out of college - "you can still be successful, but you have chosen a path that will probably be tougher and require more of you." He is now a successful individual, monetarily and socially.)

I chose a PGO for HD. Why?

1. Because I can
2. I like a challenge
3. I have dreams of teaching a pig to sing (Did I mention I like challenges?

Rshooter
July 29, 2009, 04:45 PM
I find it interesting that the PGO proponents are crying 'foul' when all I've seen from the conventionally-stocked shotgun proponents is a willingness to accept the limited virtues of the PGO shotgun IF the PGO proponents will accept that their tool is severely limited in scope and utility. Seems to me that we keep going in circles because every time we almost have a truce, the (few) PGO protagonists have to throw gasoline on the fire by refusing to logically debate the issue and instead reverting to comments like this:

Rbernie, with respect I am going to call you on this. When you cleaned up the thread you removed my last statement to Lee. It was that this thread had demonstrated why we PGO peoples cannot have a PGO thread. The last attempt was a new member asking for advice that was flamed so bad that it was locked.

I am glad you cleaned up the thread but I almost wish that you had not cleaned up the thread now. The flames you had to remove proved my point more than anything I could ever say.

As for PGO shotguns. I never seriously considered them until I was smitten by a Remington 'full factory' police folder. I have learned to use a PGO since then, even though I can quickly fold out the stock. It has opened up a new area of shotgunning for me to explore and practice. Yes PGO shotgunners do practice, come on down to Gunny's and I will even let you have a go with it at 25 yards indoors or we can go up north and really push the limits, but there I prefer my fully stocked guns.:p

dom1104
July 29, 2009, 06:00 PM
Good thing the bad guys think PGO is the way to go.


Luckily for the homeowners, this bad guy carved his 22lr into a PGO and that allowed the woman to wrench it away.


http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/waters80.html

amd6547
July 29, 2009, 09:04 PM
rbernie states that PG shotgun proponents are proposing that this weapon is "the best possible home defense weapon"...I haven't seen that expressed by others, and it is expressly the opposite of what I have written. I much prefer the carbine and handgun to any shotgun, stocked or otherwise.
It is further stated that Waterhouse has demonstrated that a stocked shotgun can be held in such a manner that it is just as handy as a PG shotgun. Sorry, not for me. I have moved through my house with my Model 11 riot gun, and it simply is too long, regardless of how it is held. The PG simply fits my situation better.

Guns and more
July 29, 2009, 09:43 PM
Because I'm genuinely curious as to why people are so willing to use a weapon for personal defense that they themselves admit is an inferior choice.
What? I never said it was an inferior choice. I think it is superior choice. I don't care if you were a marine, or a prison guard, or a chief of police. When the time comes you wont be there to help me.
I'm amazed that all you (well intentioned) folks think I have to follow your advice. It's a forum, not Marine boot camp, and you're not my DI!

I'll listen to all sides and then make my own decision, thank you!

"Everybody's a great shot on the internet!"

Southern Rebel
July 29, 2009, 09:50 PM
Luckily for the homeowners, this bad guy carved his 22lr into a PGO and that allowed the woman to wrench it away.

Dom,

Just because you see one swallow in your neighborhood doesn't mean that you have been transported to Capistrano. ONE example of anything is probably the worst excuse for a sampling of data and poorly reflects on the analytical capabilities of the provider. That is akin to pulling up a story where a legally permitted/licensed gunowner murdered someone and the provider saying this proves that citizens should not be allowed to possess guns.

(Oh by the way, a 22lr does not qualify as a shotgun - even if it does have one of those nasty PGO setups.)

30mag
July 29, 2009, 10:00 PM
Dom,

Just because you see one swallow in your neighborhood doesn't mean that you have been transported to Capistrano. ONE example of anything is probably the worst excuse for a sampling of data and poorly reflects on the analytical capabilities of the provider. That is akin to pulling up a story where a legally permitted/licensed gunowner murdered someone and the provider saying this proves that citizens should not be allowed to possess guns.

(Oh by the way, a 22lr does not qualify as a shotgun - even if it does have one of those nasty PGO setups.)

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/the-dangers-of-n1/

Justified!

rbernie
July 29, 2009, 10:08 PM
I'm amazed that all you (well intentioned) folks think I have to follow your advice.I didn't read anybody sayin' this - at all. But advice from either side deserves critial thought, donchyathink?

30mag
July 29, 2009, 10:26 PM
I chose a PGO for HD. Why?

1. Because I can
2. I like a challenge
3. I have dreams of teaching a pig to sing (Did I mention I like challenges?

There is something wrong with this line of reasoning..
"I chose a PGO for HD. Why?"
"2. I like a challenge."

Yes.. there it is... I believe it is a complete lack thereof.

You are insinuating that you KNOW that a PGO is not the best tool for the job, and you use it because of that. It'd be like defending your home without using your strong hand. It's reckless to some degree, but more importantly, where is the common sense? You want to have every advantage you can in defense.

I see a use for PGOs, even for HD. They handle quicker than a stocked shotgun (in some instances) and are more powerful than most handguns. But a challenge? That's a terrible reason.

waterhouse
July 29, 2009, 10:28 PM
I think it is superior choice.

Why? That's all I'm asking.

You use the word think, so you have put some thought into it. What attributes of the PGO make it a superior choice for home defense?

oneounceload
July 29, 2009, 10:42 PM
I can personally point a stocked shotgun, or one of my handguns, a lot better than a PGO shotgun. For me, the PGO is a novelty toy, best left for You Tube and informal fun in the backyard.

Southern Rebel
July 29, 2009, 11:44 PM
For me, the PGO is a novelty toy, best left for You Tube and informal fun in the backyard.

(sigh) As Ronald Reagan would have said, "There you go again!" :rolleyes:
Yep, I guess everyone with kids now feel it is safe to let them play with a PGO in the backyard as a toy for informal play, based on your in-depth analysis.

Mag30, I guess I did express that very poorly. Based on my own personal HD needs and physical setup, the PGO does more than adequately fill those needs - and would not present a challenge in that regard. The "challenge" comment was more related to some of the recreational uses that I put it to, just for the challenge - kind of like some guys enjoy shooting at 100 yard targets with a pistol rather than a rifle. Your post was well-taken and well-spoken.

wrs840
July 30, 2009, 12:17 AM
PGO is a great visual for movie-actors.

Not so great for practical utility in real life...

That is if you want to actually hit the target. Hip-shooting benefits from a stock.

My .02

Les

Bud Tugly
July 30, 2009, 12:58 AM
No problem with serious gun people choosing a PGO for home defense. They are aware of other options for HD and have made an informed decision that the advantages outweigh the limitations for their situation. They will take their guns out and actually shoot them enough to be confident of their abilities with it.

The ones I worry about are inexperienced folks who buy a PGO for the "coolness" factor and don't consider other options. If they rarely (or never) actually practice with the things and then confront an actual HD scenario they may be in serious trouble.

Of course that applies to any HD weapon, but firing a PGO in a tense situation without practice or knowledge is significantly more difficult than nearly any other choice.

Dave McCracken
July 30, 2009, 01:01 AM
A couple things....

The longest possible shot in Casa McC is about 33 feet. That's 11 yards.

At 10 yards, a distance mentioned in this thread, I can COM a tombstone target with a "duty" load of buck in under a second from low ready with either one of my "Serious" 870s or Frankenstein. Definitely faster with Frankenstein.

For those that came in late, Frankenstein is a parts 870 that's a loveable junkyard mutt of a shotgun with a lot of meat on its backtrail.

But, first shot speed is only part of the package.

How fast a second shot( not a followup, with shotguns little need exists for a double tap) can be done on a nearby but distinct second target can give us some real world data.

IIRC, my split times(though I didn't call them that back then) ran .5-.75 seconds with good COM hits using full power ammo. That's 9 pellets 00.

And I, along with most seasoned shotgunners, can do that repeatedly.

PGO fans, waiting to hear from you about your times and scores.....

Justin
July 30, 2009, 03:24 AM
"Everybody's a great shot on the internet!"

On Saturday I competed at a local 3Gun match (video at the link in my sig). Sunday I was up at 5:30 am to help with setup and then act as assistant RO as well as competitor at a tactical rifle match. Yesterday was our local Steel Challenge match. By attending somewhere between four and eight matches a month and looking at the statistics from scores and placement, I've gotten a pretty good idea of where my skills lie. Do I win every match? No. Do I miss? Sometimes. Am I any sort of shooting god? I wish. Compared to guys like Matt Burkett or Zak Smith, I've got a long way to go. But I am continually improving.

Attending matches has also provided the opportunity to see what works and what doesn't. If PGO shotguns conferred an advantage, they'd have representation on the firing line. So far, I've seen only one PGO at a match, and the competitor seemed to struggle mightily with getting lead on target at distances as close as ten yards. Meanwhile, even though my movements with a longer shotgun might be a bit awkward, I was still able to get lead on target from a variety of shooting positions.

My dislike for PGO's isn't something I picked up on a whim, rather it comes from direct observation and experience.

earlthegoat2
July 30, 2009, 05:35 AM
But full stocked shotguns arent as stowable right. I need a wee little small gun even if it compromises effectiveness that could easily be remedied with only a modest size increase. Kind of reminds me of the pocket 380 trend.

amd6547
July 30, 2009, 07:46 AM
I do not compete in matches (though I am considering shooting in the M1 carbine match at Camp Perry this year). I am a member of a private rifle and pistol club, and shoot there on a monthly basis. My focus there is the rifle and pistol. I shoot bowling pins with the various pistols, and shoot steel plates we have at ranges from 40yds to 75 yds. I also shoot my service pistols out 100yds. I shoot on the rifle range, working on my skills with the m1 carbine, AK and AR, as well as a few mil-surp bolt guns.
I have stated here that I consider the shotgun to be a tertiary weapon, and that is reflected in my shooting habits at the club. One or both of my shotguns accompany me to the range about every three trips. Basically a matter of confirming function, POA/POI, and rotation of carry ammo, though I do enjoy getting my Model 11 out and rapid firing a mag of buck...it is fun to fire 5 rounds as fast as the trigger can be pulled.
I keep my firearms locked up in a gun safe, except for my main SD handgun. When I am home, the M1 carbine is kept handy, and would be what I would grab first. The handgun, of course is the handiest weapon of all, something that is always available, and which could be kept ready and concealed for investigating questionable activities inside or outside the home. For me, that handgun is a Beretta 92FS with CTC grips and an 18rd mag of 127gn Ranger JHPs ( I also have a long-standing fondness for the Browning HiPower, which is what is next to me right now, as I write this..). The only firearm that is not in the safe is my PG Mossberg, which is stored with a full mag and a trigger lock. It is stored in a location which would not fit a fully stocked shotgun. I have a folder for this shotgun, but it adds a lot of bulk, being a side-folder, plus I just prefer the chickenhead grip I have on my shotgun now.
With the forward pushing grip I use on the forend of my PG shotgun, I find that I can function the pump very quickly as a natural function of the recoil motion, while controling recoil, and pointing with the forend hand.
I have nothing to prove to anyone but myself. I am satisfied with my choices, and that is all that matters to me.

wrs840
July 30, 2009, 08:39 AM
...and satisfied with your choices you should be. That's a good thing.

You'll find that much of the advocacy on internet fora is by folks who are defending decisions that they have already made. It's for those who haven't yet made a decision that the elders share their personal experience, and that's a good thing too.

Les

amd6547
July 30, 2009, 09:12 AM
Yes, it is a good thing to have "elders" share their wisdom. The problem I have is when the info on PG shotguns is presented, as a sticky of all things, in a dismissive and ridiculing manner, along with anecdotal stories and darwin award youtube videos. There is much more to the PG shotgun story than that, and the info in a sticky should be much more fair and balanced, or it is merely a vehicle for presenting someones personal bias. Not at all helpful to a search for the truth by someone who searching for same.

Todd A
July 30, 2009, 09:31 AM
Yes, it is a good thing to have "elders" share their wisdom. The problem I have is when the info on PG shotguns is presented, as a sticky of all things, in a dismissive and ridiculing manner, along with anecdotal stories and darwin award youtube videos.

I was going to stay out of this one but..

The sticky is there for newbies.

My own HD/Camping/Hiking/Woodsbumming shotgun has a PGO on it right now. I am confident in my abilities with myshotgun to put lead on target at pistol range or closer with it. I can live with its limitations, and don't personally care if others don't share my opinion.

Am I better with a full stocked gun? Yep. But I can't strap a full stocked gun to a back pack without it extending beyond the pack.

And I am too lazy to switch stocks everytime I leave the house.

In my mind the sticky is there for first time HD Shotgun users/buyers. And I would not recomend a PGO to a firstime user.

And a PGO is definatly not for those who buy a shotgun,a 5 pack of Buck, load it, and stuff it under the bed thinking they are well armed.

oneounceload
July 30, 2009, 09:38 AM
(sigh) As Ronald Reagan would have said, "There you go again!"
Yep, I guess everyone with kids now feel it is safe to let them play with a PGO in the backyard as a toy for informal play, based on your in-depth analysis.


Your condescending smart remarks do nothing to further your now value-less utterances.

I said nothing about kids or as a toy - it is comments like that that help the antis more than you.

If you don't know the difference, kindly go back to playing video games

Rshooter
July 30, 2009, 12:23 PM
Come on guys, if you do not like a PGO bail out and let us folks who want to discuss the proper use of the gun do so. I will listen to Dave and Lee in deference to their experience but they know I will not dump the PGO so they will hopefully give advice on the use of the gun that they have. We can prevent more newbie injuries with good information than we can by arguing. :banghead:

Leadhead
July 30, 2009, 12:44 PM
Attending matches has also provided the opportunity to see what works and what doesn't. If PGO shotguns conferred an advantage, they'd have representation on the firing line.

I agree with Justin.
Don't try competing against full stock guns with your PGO if your goal is to win the competition!
What was Dave's challenge again.......

Justin
July 30, 2009, 12:50 PM
Don't try competing against full stock guns with your PGO if your goal is to win the competition!

Home defense isn't a competition? :confused:

And here I was fairly certain that a home defense situation generally involves a winner and a loser.
Perhaps in the post-modern era, rather, everyone can be a winner?

rbernie
July 30, 2009, 12:52 PM
let us folks who want to discuss the proper use of the gun do so

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=465253

Leadhead
July 30, 2009, 01:29 PM
Home defense isn't a competition?

Not that I am aware of....I was more responding to your observation that not a lot of people compete with PGO's against others with full stock guns.

Justin
July 30, 2009, 01:45 PM
Here's the question that this brings, at least to my mind:

If a competitor with a PGO shotgun cannot hold his own at a match on a sunny day, when he's fully awake and in a good mood, at a practical shooting match that involves shooting large steel targets at close range with bird shot, what does that say about the utility of the firearm?

I mean, those are about the best circumstances you could possibly ask for, with courses of fire that all of the PGO guys claim would be advantageous for PGO shotguns. Yet that plainly was not the case.

If close range on big targets in cramped quarters isn't an advantageous scenario for a PGO shotgun, then what is? Describe a situation in which a pistol gripped shotgun would be useful to have, and where, even if it wouldn't beat the stocked shotguns outright, at least it could make a reasonable showing.

So far, the only situations where I see a PGO shotgun being a somewhat reasonable choice are those where weight and space are at such an absolute premium that no other choice is viable- backpacking in the woods*, as a secondary weapon used for breaching doors** before transitioning to a handgun or rifle, or possibly in a situation where one is moving in/out of vehicles on a regular basis***.

*Though a magnum handgun weighs even less, is easier to carry, shoot accurately, and is considered by pretty much anyone with authority on the subject to be a reasonable choice in the lower 48.

**I can't think of a better choice here, so I'll certainly concede that use. But I seriously doubt many of us breach enough doors to make the purchase of a PGO worthwhile.

***An SBR'd AR-type rifle would offer not only higher ammunition capacity, but is easier to control and aim accurately, and presumably requires much less training to achieve a basic level of proficiency.

dom1104
July 30, 2009, 02:09 PM
Ok this thread is getting silly. Noone is going to listen to the other side. I have to bring in some biblical beatdown.



Prov 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

Prov 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.

Prov 23:9 Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

Exodus 22:2-3 "If the thief is found breaking in,
and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his
bloodshed. If he is wounded with a pistol grip shotgun, and rises up, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold to pay for the legal bills."


No offense meant, its just what popped into the head. Both sides think the other is a fool, and neither side will listen. :)

Justin
July 30, 2009, 02:17 PM
Dom-

I'm completely open to being convinced that PGO shotguns have viable applications. All I need is to be presented with evidence.

dom1104
July 30, 2009, 02:22 PM
Justin-


Well I sure cant give you any. I cant find one good reason to put a PG on my shotgun.

Nope, sure cant. I am considering a http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff198/milaircom/870.jpg


tho, to make it easier to stow in a car

amd6547
July 30, 2009, 02:29 PM
What I find silly is the either/or aspect of this discussion. I own both stocked and pistol gripped shotguns, and shoot both well within their limitations.
And, to my view, all shotguns have limitations...which is why I prefer the carbine.

30mag
July 30, 2009, 02:30 PM
Mag30, I guess I did express that very poorly. Based on my own personal HD needs and physical setup, the PGO does more than adequately fill those needs - and would not present a challenge in that regard. The "challenge" comment was more related to some of the recreational uses that I put it to, just for the challenge - kind of like some guys enjoy shooting at 100 yard targets with a pistol rather than a rifle. Your post was well-taken and well-spoken.
Excellent.

30mag
July 30, 2009, 02:36 PM
If close range on big targets in cramped quarters isn't an advantageous scenario for a PGO shotgun, then what is?
A PGO suffers in the accuracy department vs. a stocked shotty. If you're firing it, the PGO loses.
A PGO is (arguably) more totable, concealable, and handy. It wins in storage. If you have a shotgun with a folding stock though, that largely defeats any advantage that a PGO might have. Although if concealability was an issue, a PGO wouldn't snag a stock on something or have a stock to print.

Leadhead
July 30, 2009, 03:54 PM
I'm completely open to being convinced that PGO shotguns have viable applications. All I need is to be presented with evidence.

I'm sure some have seen these clips all ready but I guess they serve as evidence that hit's can be made with PGO's.....I was not racing so to speak and this was a few years ago when I first set up one of my guns with a birdshead grip. This was my second time shooting at clays with this gun so not a lot of practice so to speak.....the snowman was latter in the year and my first attempt at hip shooting.

It's hard to see the hits but it went like this....
first clay shot clean one hand
second clay broke in the launcher and I hit the biggest piece that flew
third clay was nicked and deflected with the third shot, nicked again with the forth and missed with the last shot at what was left of the dropping clay
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/Candown/th_Clays.jpg (http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/Candown/?action=view&current=Clays.flv)

Here I was just having some fun at the range when old grumpy showed up:D the first shot kind of caught me by surprise as I was not really sure of my aim point.....
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/Candown/th_SnowManDown.jpg (http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/Candown/?action=view&current=SnowManDown.flv)

Coronach
July 30, 2009, 04:30 PM
For the umpteenth time, NO ONE is suggesting that "hits cannot be made with a PGO".

NO ONE.

Several people are suggesting that FASTER and MORE CONSISTENT hits can be made with a stocked shotgun, for a given amount of training.

Furthermore (and this is not addressed at our last poster), NO ONE is suggesting that PGOs should be outlawed, that they cannot be enjoyed for what they are, or that they don't have a niche in which they serve a valid purpose (beyond amusement). What many people are saying is that the niche is vanishingly small, that they're not a lot of fun for most people to do a lot of shooting with, and they they personally don't want one.

The PGO-defenders have some need to create straw men to then blast (slowly and at close range) with their PGO guns. It's almost as if arguing the valid points ends up in consistent losses, so the subject is subtly changed. Coincidence, I'm sure.

Talk to the people who train the use of shotguns, and who compete with shotguns. What do they see the PGO doing in their courses? How well are PGO practitioners performing? There's a clue, right there.

Mike

Southern Rebel
July 30, 2009, 04:38 PM
Well, I have already contributed more than I really know, so it is time for me to go find a nice thread where I can argue - oops, discuss - the merits of why I carry a pistol using the 357 SIG catridge rather than the better choice of a 45 caliber.

I will leave all of you with what my uncle told me about his experience in wartime. I certainly can't remember word or word, but it went something like this.

"Boy, I know you think you are a pretty good shot - and you are when it comes to hittin' a tin-can or an X made on the tree bark. But lemme' tell you something. That is important alright, but there are two things just as important. The first is that you better be danged good at handling your own fear, cause it can freeze you in a heartbeat when you know there is men out there that are tryin' their best to kill you.

The second is you better be ready to take their life, cause if you ain't, that's gonna freeze you too. I lost a lot of buddies that were better shooters than me, but they froze up and they died because of it.

And the scariest part of it all, boy, is that you generally don't know how you stand on those parts until you're there."

Justin
July 30, 2009, 04:55 PM
*smacks forehead*

Now I get it. One's mindset and willingness to defend himself is completely dependent upon whether he has a PGO shotgun.

Makes perfect sense.

amd6547
July 30, 2009, 05:24 PM
What Southern Rebel wrote is very true, and echoes words my Father, a WWII vet told me.
Justin, your reaction is nothing more than incendiary and uncalled for.

dom1104
July 30, 2009, 05:53 PM
Here I was just having some fun at the range when old grumpy showed up the first shot kind of caught me by surprise as I was not really sure of my aim point....


AND THIS, is exactly what we are talking about.

People with stocks, are sure of their aim point. :)


yaaay I win!

amd6547
July 30, 2009, 06:14 PM
I guess that's what practice is all about...But his "unsure shot" took old grumpy's head off.

Guns and more
July 30, 2009, 06:52 PM
bad guy carved his 22lr into a PGO and that allowed the woman to wrench it away.
That makes no sense. How would a stock pressed against his shoulder have held any better.
It's just the opposite. Going through a doorway with a full stock gives the BG a better opportunity to grab the barrel and jerk it out of your hand. Your grip is now far in front of you where you have no leverage. Far better to have your hands close to your body where you have strength. Also the full shotgun will stick farther in front of you.

Southern Rebel
July 30, 2009, 09:53 PM
*smacks forehead*
(I guess there is more than one way to knock yourself addled - might just have well used a PGO and put in on youtube!) :D


Justin, evidently a little too hard because your response makes no sense????
If it is in response to my post, let me simplify it for you:

If you are at a point where your life is imminent danger and you either must defend yourself or die, you better have the guts and the courage to do so. All the little round holes you have punched in paper targets won't impress the bad guy anymore than it impresses me. If you have been there and done that, then fine. If not, all the discussion points and all the best and most applicable weapons in the world won't do you any good if you lack those two abilities. If found lacking, best put your head between your legs and kiss you behind goodbye!

Leadhead
July 30, 2009, 10:00 PM
Great post Southern Rebel and so true....until you are in the life and death zone you don't really know how you will react.
So far I've been there a few times and for the most part things got real sharp and timed slowed down for me personally and I was able to react to the situation.

Coranach, NO ONE is suggesting that "PGO's are faster then full stock guns".

It seems to be an argument to determine just how bad the PGO is compared to a full stock.

oneounceload
July 30, 2009, 10:07 PM
It seems to be an argument to determine just how bad the PGO is compared to a full stock.

It seems, that according to Southern Rebel, that anyone who disagrees with him is suggesting that PGO's are only for toys and kids

Guns and more
July 30, 2009, 10:12 PM
This thread has become boring.
Stock guys....get a stock
PG guys....have at it.
I'm out.

Justin
July 30, 2009, 10:22 PM
[Justin, evidently a little too hard because your response makes no sense??? If it is in response to my post, let me simplify it for you

Thanks, but no need for the clarification as your message came through loud and clear the first time.

The point is that in this thread, it's already a given that we all possess the proper mindset to defend ourselves. There's fundamentally no reason to even breach the subject in this thread, except to make a dig at those who disagree with you.

Todd A
July 30, 2009, 10:39 PM
The point is that in this thread, it's already a given that we all possess the proper mindset to defend ourselves.

Agreed.

This topic is always spirited. No one but a mall ninja would swear a PGO is better than a full stock gun for fast follow up shots.

However, on the other side of the coin.

Anyone who says a PGO can not be used effectively in home defense ,in the hands of someone who actually shoots the thing, is allowing personal bias to creep in.


Whether you use a fixed,folder,or PGO just be sure to go out and send some lead downrange.:D

(after all that is what counts the most)

amd6547
July 30, 2009, 10:47 PM
How one reacts when bullets are being fired at you with deadly intent has very little to do with the willingness and mindset to defend oneself stated boldly before it ever happens. When the "COF" becomes two way, it is often those who talked the loudest beforehand who go to pieces.
Seriously, Justin, and as politely as possible, Your response to Southern Rebel was uncivil. There some things all of us should be able to agree on, and the sentiment expressed in SR's post should be one of them.

Rshooter
July 31, 2009, 01:12 AM
let us folks who want to discuss the proper use of the gun do so
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=465253

Rbernie, thanks for marking that thread, funny thing though, that guy is talking about using a Blackhawk shotgun at the hip and the best advice aside from holding it tight to the hip is to use it from the shoulder. :what:

I will just give up on this, I never said I was better than anybody else. I would love to participate in a gun match with my PGO but a cane and leg braces would probably make it difficult. It is hard to cycle the darn thing when you are trying to stay upright PGO or no. ;)

AWKIII
July 31, 2009, 01:35 AM
I am a cop. My primary duty weapon is a 1911. Riding next to me in the seat is my Remington 870 with full length stock. I live in the country. Hanging by my front door is my pgo Mossberg. When someone knocks on my door at unusual hours, they are greeted with the pgo. Big target close range. No matter how specialized it may be, all guns have a purpose. Anyone can become proficient with any weapon given enough time to practice. If you are comfortable using a pgo, use it. It is better than answering the door with a baseball bat.

Silly arguments and pissing matches, like the last seven pages really upset me. I am a God fearing gun loving American, and I figure the PGO fans are to. As long as they believe in Liberty and Freedom I will stand beside them with their pgo and fight any day.

Lets quit arguing over petty differences and unite to fight abouth SH%T that really matterS.

CERTA BONUM CERTAMEN FIDEI

Southern Rebel
July 31, 2009, 01:48 AM
The point is that in this thread, it's already a given that we all possess the proper mindset to defend ourselves. There's fundamentally no reason to even breach the subject in this thread, except to make a dig at those who disagree with you.


That is exactly the "given" that my uncle was trying to get across to me - it isn't a given. What I was trying to say was that we shouldn't get so bogged down as to what is "best" because if a person can effectively handle the weapon he has at the moment of conflict, his survival will be determined by the two other factors. (By the way, as to "digs", you drew first blood :D, but I am ok with that.)

His advice was based on his actual combat in Korea where he killed his first Chinese soldier when he was not yet 18 yrs old. His unit was part of the group that were involved in the last-minute evacuation by sea. His description of climbing the ice-coated rigging was a tribute to his overcoming fear. He noted that the Commanding Officer warned them if they fell into the sea, they were dead men because there wouldn't be time to rescue them. He said he saw several of his unit become frozen by fear and just clung until fatigue forced them to turn loose to their death.

I have remembered that advice for many years and try to practice what he preached. I will be sure that when I pick up a gun, I can be proficient enough by my own standards to use it. That choice and measurement will be mine to make. But I also believe that the ultimate determination of proficient use will largely be determined by the two other factors mentioned and my belief is that we really won't know until the situation arises. And even then, different situations might evoke different responses.

My hope for all of us is that our future will contain only battles with paper. Just maybe our survival battles will be waged within these forums with only hypothetical and theoretical encounters, weapons, and strategies. I guess in that scenario, we will all be forum Ninja warriors. Now, I guess we all need to put up our toy soldiers for the night.

Robert
July 31, 2009, 10:15 AM
How one reacts when bullets are being fired at you with deadly intent has very little to do with the willingness and mindset to defend oneself stated boldly before it ever happens.
Absolutely wrong. Ones training and mind set, when I was in training it was called the warrior mind set, has everything to do with the way you will react in a life or death situation. But only if one posses the correct training and mind set. I am prepared to win, and live, at any cost. I will not stop and I will not back down till I am killed. That is my mind set. And it has everything to do with winning any conflict. My training dictates how my body will react. How I move, look for cover and or concealment, reload my weapon, advance, retreat and every other physical aspect of a fight are determined by my training. Sure there are some things that you just can not train for and so you adjust on the fly. I am not talking about shooting holes in targets from a bench on a sunny Saturday afternoon. I am talking about fighting your way free of an attacker who is doing his best to choke you out(or at least make you believe that is what is happening), breaking contact and employing your weapon. I compete in two different shooting sports and find them to be great fun and some decent training as well. So yes, training and mind set have everything in the world to do with how I react when bullets start flying. I will win.
I do not disagree that the PGO shotgun in very close quarters would be a devastating weapon, but it does nothing better or faster than my full stock shotgun. And as I have stated before my full stock shotgun does them all better.

amd6547
July 31, 2009, 10:30 AM
Yes, of course mindset and willingness to defend oneself are important components, yet during WWII, when our troops were one of the best trained and equipped armies in the world, SLA Marshal found:
Marshall was a U.S. Army historian in the Pacific theater during World War II and later became the official U.S. historian of the European theater of operations. He had a team of historians working for him, and they based their findings on individual and mass interviews with thousands of soldiers in more than 400 infantry companies immediately after they had been in close combat with German or Japanese troops. The results were consistently the same: Only 15 to 20 percent of the American riflemen in combat during World War II would fire at the enemy. Those who would not fire did not run or hide—in many cases they were willing to risk greater danger to rescue comrades, get ammunition, or run messages. They simply would not fire their weapons at the enemy, even when faced with repeated waves of banzai charges.

Why did these men fail to fire? As a historian, psychologist, and soldier, I examined this question and studied the process of killing in combat. I have realized that there was one major factor missing from the common understanding of this process, a factor that answers this question and more: the simple and demonstrable fact that there is, within most men and women, an intense resistance to killing other people. A resistance so strong that, in many circumstances, soldiers on the battlefield will die before they can overcome it.
When the games and training turn into reality, nothing can predict how an individual will perform.

Justin
July 31, 2009, 10:45 AM
You know, if you're going to quote Lt. Col. Dave Grossman verbatim, perhaps it would be a good idea to cite him.

Robert
July 31, 2009, 10:45 AM
And the biggest problem you have in a draft military vs a volunteer military is that so many people only do what they need to do stay out of trouble. They do not want to be there and as such only do what needs to be done to fly under the radar. I am not in any way shape or form try to dishonor our fighting forces then or now. But the simple fact remain that some people will only do the bare minimum to get by. We have all known or seen these people in our various training environments.

Plagiarism, wow that is a nice touch. Very classy.

rbernie
July 31, 2009, 10:57 AM
We're just talking past each other, and way afield from the OP - it's probably time to close thie one out. Anyone wandering in to read the thread probably stopped reading about fifty posts ago, anyway.

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