[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

I read somewhere that a handful of Texas Rangers had a running fight with a whole flock of Commanches. The Rangers were armed only with Patersons. The rangers won the fight and stayed alive so their Paterson's must have worked pretty good. I value your opinion and knowledge. Do you have an opinion or any knowledhe of this subject? Thank you..Stan..

[Wolfebyte]

According to this transcript, it was supposed to be around Enchanted Rock

http://ahivfree.alexanderstreet.com/View/Transcript/518173

about 1/4 of the way down the article. Capt. Jack Hays..

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Wolfebyte, Thank you sir. Good looking out..Stan..

[SWC Bonfire]

Patersons were used well against the Comanches by Capt. Jack C. Hays and his Ranger companies. They were also used against the Mexican Army on a couple of occasions, the most substantial being the battle of Salado Creek.

The Rangers fighting with Taylor in northern Mexico during the Mexican-American war used Patersons. By that time, some rangers had multiple revolvers (which I've seen documentation of), possibly extra cylinders (which I really haven't seen much proof of), usually also along with a brace of single shot pistols, double-barreled shotguns, and usually a small-caliber "squirrel" rifle for long-distance shots (along with bowie knives and other non-firearm weapons). Point being, they were never armed "just with patersons". Usually the were armed to the teeth. More than likely the battle you described was the Battle of Walker Creek, which if I recall correctly didn't end until a Pvt. Gillespe shot the Comanche chief with his rifle despite being wounded. It fell to him to attempt the shot as he was the last ranger with a loaded rifle.

The Colt "Walkers" didn't get distributed to the rangers at large until Scott's southern campaign near the end of the war. The rangers that were issued them kept their Patersons as well, leaving some with two or more revolvers.

[Beagle-zebub]

The Colt "Walkers" didn't get distributed to the rangers at large until Scott's southern campaign near the end of the war. The rangers that were issued them kept their Patersons as well, leaving some with two or more revolvers.

And somehow that still became known as a "New York" reload. :D

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

SWC Bonfire. Sending this post to thank you. You have been extremely helpful and knowlegable concerning my inquiry into this....

[NobleSniper]

So basically the Texas Rangers were armed with Patersons and whatever else each individual ranger could carry as far as arms. Some neat information, thanks ;)

[mykeal]

GotC - I can add nothing of value beyond what these other gentlemen have already said in regards to the history of the Paterson. I'm afraid I also can add nothing about the gun itself; I've never owned one and have fired one only a very few times. Alas, this is one of many areas in which my knowledge and experience are substandard.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Mr. MyKeal, somehow sir I seriously doubt that your knowledge of blackpowder firearms could in any way be considered 'substandard', although I will concede there may be nothing further to divulge in regard to this particular firearm. God know's I have been sitting here wearing my two fingers out (I hunt and peck!) trying to find information. Thank you sir. Stan..

[Wolfebyte]

GoTC, never a problem, I live a couple of hours north of Enchanted rock and have heard the stories about Capt. Hays all my life.

There is a town to the east of me named for the Comanche Indians that used to roam these parts. Hills to the west in a community called Santa Anna (no relation to the Mexican General, but rather a Comanche war chief named Santanna) that served as a Ranger look out post.

So your question piqued my interest twofold.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Wolfebyte, yes, I have heard of (I think he was a highly regarded war chief) Commanche named Santanna or something like that.... I realize I just repeated what you just finished typing, but yes, I have heard of him...

[NobleSniper]

Santa Anna was a member of the same band of the Comanche as the more famous Buffalo Hump. He was an important chief, though probably less influential than Buffalo Hump during the 1830s and 1840s. He was the first member of his band to visit Washington, D.C. He was originally, along with Buffalo Hump, a leader of Comanche resistance to Anglo settlement in Texas, especially during the period following the Council House Fight.But what most people don't know he also worked as a bar tender at a night club in the 1830's[1]


[edit] Following the Council House Fight
Main article Council House Fight.
Following the deadly Council House Fight, where the Comanche felt that the whites had slaughtered their envoys despite the promise of the white treaty flag, conflict between Comanches and migrating Anglo-Texans had become increasingly frequent. Santa Anna advocated armed and bitter resistance to the white invasion of the Comancheria, and gained prominence after the Council House Fight in San Antonio in 1840. For approximately the next five years he joined Buffalo Hump and a number of other war chiefs in conducting a series of raids and attacks on Anglo settlements, including the Great Raid of 1840, during which the Comanche burned two cities, and raided all the way to the sea.[1]


Though it is today impossible to trace his direct involvement with any sort of precision, Santa Anna probably took part in the raids on Linnville and Victoria in 1840 and may have been present at the Battle of Plum Creek. Prior to 1845 he was firmly identified with the faction of his tribe that opposed accommodation with whites.[1]


[edit] After the Great Raid
Main article Great Raid of 1840.
Main article Battle of Plum Creek.
Santa Anna became a proponent of accommodation and peace with the whites following his involvement with treaty talks with the Army, and a later visit to Washington, D.C. in 1847. Before 1845 he was firmly identified with the militant faction of his tribe that opposed accommodation with whites. In point of fact, there is absolutely no record of his ever meeting with officials representing the government of the Republic of Texas. He appeared during this time to be even more militant than Buffalo Hump, who had met with Sam Houston in 1843–44. But in the later part of 1845, he was finally convinced to attend treaty negotiations conducted by United States officials, where he was first exposed to the true numbers and weaponry of the whites. Santa Anna, more than any other Native American of the Plains during this time, was influenced by what he had seen. Convinced that his people could simply not defeat or long resist the numbers and weapons of the whites, he began advocating peace. In May 1846 he was one of those Comanche Chiefs who signed a treaty promising peace between his people and American citizens in Texas.[1]

Geologist Dr. Ferdinand von Roemer was present at those treaty talks, which resulted in the Meusebach-Comanche Treaty, and left an enduring and vivid portrait of Santa Anna:

""The three chiefs, who were at the head of all the bands of the Comanches roaming the frontiers of the settlements in Texas looked very dignified and grave. They differed much in appearance. [Old Owl] the political chief, was a small old man who in his dirty cotton jacket looked undistinguished and only his diplomatic crafty face marked him. The war chief, Santa Anna, presented an altogether different appearance. He was a powerfully built man with a benevolent and lively countenance. The third, Buffalo Hump, was the genuine, unadulterated picture of a North American Indian. Unlike the majority of his tribe, he scorned all European dress. The upper part of his body was naked. A buffalo hide was wound around his hips. Yellow copper rings decorated his arms and a string of beads hung from his neck. With his long, straight black hair hanging down, he sat there with the earnest (to the European almost apathetic) expression of countenance of the North American savage. He drew special attention to himself because in previous years he had distinguished himself for daring and bravery in many engagements with the Texans."[1]

In early December 1847, Santa Anna and a party of chiefs from several tribes in Texas visited Washington, D.C. The first of his tribe to make such a journey, Santa Anna was recorded to be overwhelmed by what he saw, especially the sheer numbers of the whites. From that moment on, convinced that continued armed resistance against the United States was tantamount to suicide for his people, he began advocating accommodation and attempted to use his prestige as a noted War Chief to secure a lasting peace. But among the still-warlike Comanche, Santa Anna's conversion reduced his prestige.[1]


[edit] The end of his life
Santa Anna apparently tired of his reduced position, and to regain his former glory, he led several raids into Mexico in 1848–49, in violation of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. These raids necessitated intervention by the army and United States Indian agent Robert S. Neighbors, and Santa Anna was persuaded to stop. In late December 1849, a cholera epidemic killed over 300 Penateka Comanche in a few weeks time. Santa Anna was one of the victims, though Buffalo Hump, also ill, survived. Following Santa Anna's death, those in the Penateka band, other than the division commanded by Buffalo Hump, disintegrated. Its surviving members joined other Comanche bands.[1]

[J.T. Gerrity]

Sam Walker was in this fight with Hays; he supplied a drawing of it that was used to create the rolled steel engraving on both the Walker and the Dragoons. The Rangers got the Patersons from the decommissioned Texas Navy. Hays, Walker and 12 or 13 other Rangers met a band of approximately 80 Comanches and scared the P**s out of the Indians with their rate of fire. Casualty reports during the early Nineteenth Century are always suspect, but rumor is that the Rangers dispatched about half of the Indians with the Patersons, and routed the rest. Walker had also used the Patersons during the Seminole wars in Florida and it was well known that he was partial to them. When he was commissioned a Captain in the U.S. Mounted Rifles, he continued to use Patersons during the fight in Mexico in '46. Zachary Taylor, who was the General in charge of American forces in the war, heard about the success of the revolvers in the hands of Walker and others, and encouraged their use among the troops.

Colt, however, was no longer in the firearms business. The Patent Arms Company of Paterson New Jersey (where the name came from) had declared bankruptcy in '42 due to lack of sales, and the company was in liquidation. Colt himself was developing an underwater mine system that he hoped to sell to the military, but was finding little promise in the venture. When he heard about the success the Patersons were having in Mexico, he took it upon himself to contact Walker regarding the possibility of supplying revolvers to the military. Walker, who was in Maryland recruiting troops, was more than pleased to receive Colt's offer, and dispatched a letter to Colt describing the Comanche fight and saying that, "With improvements I think they can be rendered the most perfect weapon in the world for light mounted troops". Colt replied that he was interested, and Walker and he soon met to discuss the improvements to the design. Thus did the Walker pistol come about, with the roll-engraved scene of the famous Comanche battle.

[NobleSniper]

I'll be darn......so that is the battle on the scene of my Walker. I really learned something here thanks ;)

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Noble Sniper..Well, I ain't sure I learned anything. From you I mean! Co'mon!! A bartender?! What the hell exactly did he mix up? Sound's like you'vd been mixing up something yourself ol' son..!!!!

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

JT Gerrity. YES!! The fight with the 80 or 90 co-manch is the fight I had first asked about on this particular thread. I have been given to understand (from what I'vd read elsewhere) it was a running fight that lasted all day and the Rangers kicked the hell out of them. (mostly with Patersons)
Thank you for the article you just posted here. I enjoyed reading it very much, Mr. Gerrity. I really did. I'm going to try and bookmark this page or add it to my favorites list so I will have it at my fingertips....

[NobleSniper]

I wondered about that myself. ALthough I remmebered reading a bit of the other information about him when I did some reading on Buffalo Hump. As for myself I don't tip the bottle much anymore............... here is a link to where I found the info I posted ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Anna_(Comanche_war_chief)

[Big Daddy Grim]

I like these types of discussions good post Stan.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Big Daddy Grim.Well thank you sir but Mr. Wolfebyte, Mr. JT Gerrity, and Mr.SWC Bonfire did all this work and made all these good posts. They're sure worth reading. NOTICE! I'm not going to send you in Noble Sniper's direction. You might get infected!! (just joking, Noble Sniper! I went to that link you posted)

[J.T. Gerrity]

it was a running fight that lasted all day and the Rangers kicked the hell out of them

You heard right.

[GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL]

Thank you Mr. Gerrity..Stan