Hey, You black powder people - legal purchase age??


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Funderb
April 21, 2009, 08:44 PM
I live in florida, and have been set on getting a black powder revolver when I turn 21 in a few months, but recently, a shadow of doubt has been cast over my knowledge of the law...

How old do you have to be to purchase a replica colt 1851 navy revolver?
(subtitle: Do you have to be 21?)

They are cool, and I want one.
for lack of a better reason...


(thanks coronach)

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Funderb
April 21, 2009, 09:47 PM
Nothin? I'm not feeling the love, guys.

BTW, I have been researching this, and have turned up nothing definitive, except that antiques and models of that
fire non-catridges are not fire arms per atf standards.

Cannonball888
April 21, 2009, 09:53 PM
I don't know the current law, but I purchased one mail order from DGW when I was 16. If I recall correctly they didn't ask for my age. BP guns legally are nonfirearms. Only a powder purchase has an age requirement. I'd post this question in the BP forum for some current info.

Funderb
April 21, 2009, 09:58 PM
Thanks man, I'll get a mod to move this thing for me. If I can't do it myself..

Zoogster
April 21, 2009, 11:00 PM
Black powder muzzle loaders are not firearms at the federal level. Black powder cartridge arms usualy are.

They are still firearms at the state level in many states. Some states have seperate less restrictive laws for them, and some states treat them no differently under the law than any other firearm.
Meaning a black powder long arm is a long arm, and a black powder handgun is a handgun.

You would need to look up Florida law, not the federal law for your answer.

Usualy that requires looking up both the law and case law related to that law for the clear definition.
If the law makes no distinction between them, then you must assume laws written regarding "handguns" refer to handguns in your state.
Also look at the definition of firearm in your state.
Some state consider them anything that expels a projectile with the force of an explosion/combustion. That would include black powder arms.


Some brief searching and I found this:

790.001 Definitions.

6) "Firearm" means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. The term "firearm" does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.


(1) "Antique firearm" means any firearm manufactured in or before 1918 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar early type of ignition system) or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1918, and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1918, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.


So the definition is slightly different than the federal one, but not too much. It needs to be a replica of a design made prior to 1918 that does not use fixed ammunition.
No modern black powder designs.

I however do not know all the potential statutes that apply outside of that particular one. You need to do more research on your state law, and possession at various ages.


Every state is unique concerning black powder guns.


but I purchased one mail order from DGW when I was 16.
Just because you can purchase something does not mean it is legal. You can do that in most states because they are not federaly required to go through an FFL even when crossing state lines, but in many states you would have still commited a crime.
There is a large number of things I could purchase from around the nation without violating any federal laws and have shipped to me that are a felony at the state level just to possess in my state.

Funderb
April 21, 2009, 11:32 PM
(6) "Firearm" means any weapon (including a starter gun) which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; any destructive device; or any machine gun. The term "firearm" does not include an antique firearm unless the antique firearm is used in the commission of a crime.

funny i was about to quote the same things...

Thanks for the input zoog.

GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL
April 22, 2009, 12:19 AM
XXXX

Funderb
April 22, 2009, 12:40 AM
^^ well, thanks I guess... ?

I looked long and hard in the florida law sections and there is no law regulating the necessary age of black powder replica arms. Most laws are fall backs to the ATF regs.
Whether or not the company policy allows it, we shall see in the next couple of days.

Thanks all.

bigbadgun
April 23, 2009, 09:08 AM
I live in Palm Beach County and if I'm not mistaken the legal age to buy a Cap & Ball revolver in Florida is 18. Because by law they are not considered a firearm. The best thing I can tell you is to call a respected gun shop in your area that sells C&B revolvers and simply ask the question.

Pancho
April 23, 2009, 09:52 AM
BBG stole my thunder. If anyone should know the practical side of the law in your state it would be a reputable gunstore. The governments ride them so hard that they have to be up on the laws to stay in business and out of jail.

Funderb
April 23, 2009, 06:16 PM
well, i went there and bought it. Unfortunately they couldn't cut me a deal, being a big box store and all. I tried. I got the revolver, 1851 colt navy in .44 with patches and .445 roundballs for $220. I could have done better somewhere else, but I thought I'd like to handle it first, and then buy it.
They were unfortunately out of caps and powder. dang.
I have a couple questions though,
do you have to use no.11 primers? I heard somewhere about using shotshell primers, but that may have been a specific rifle. (guy at the range was talking about it.)

What is your favorite loading method? flask, mini paper charge? Spare cylinder?

Any tips for a first time shooter of the black powder?

bigbadgun
April 23, 2009, 07:23 PM
Ok first of all congrats on the new revolver how ever the .445 balls are not gonna work for you. You need to use more than likely .454 balls. Lube wad over powder. You want to use an over sized ball so when you go to seat them over the powder you want to shave a ring of led all the way around the ball.
Start with a 25- 30 grain charge. #11 caps should work fine, if you find that they are loose you can give them a little pinch so they fit good and dont fall off. Another question is, is it a beass frame or steel frame that is gonna dictate the load if it is a brass frame revolver dont over charge stick to 20-25 grain charges. other than that have fun.

arcticap
April 23, 2009, 07:48 PM
There's a lot of basic information in the "BP esententials" sticky listed at the top of the BP home page:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238769

You could use a loading stand or make one. There's lots of pictures of them if you click in the search box at the top of each page:

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=7768

These are more expensive and require removing the wedge to load the cylinder:

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=13876

mykeal
April 23, 2009, 11:26 PM
209, or 'shotshell', primers will not work on your percussion revolver. It requires percussion caps, not primers.

Funderb
April 24, 2009, 11:49 AM
Thanks guys, I knew i needed the 454 balls to get a good solid swage in there. I figgered with a patch and some lube I could just blast the little boogers all around until i could get some correctly sized balls. I'm not expecting any type of accuracy with these.

I will have to get some percussion caps then, dang. Thanks for all the info guys, I appreciate the help.

I have the brass frame. They were out of steels. I am aware of the stretch factor, and plan to keep the loads down. For the hot stuff, I'll shoot my cz52... : )

SWC Bonfire
April 24, 2009, 12:54 PM
The problem with patching undersized balls in a revolver is that the blast from a fired round gets deflected toward the other cylinders from the frame/forcing cone. The reason oversize bullets are used is so that they shave a ring of lead off when seated and seal off the powder from sparks outside. The patch also has to make it through the forcing cone at the gap between the cylinder and the barrel; it could get stuck, deflect more blast toward the cylinders, or act as an obstruction.

If you patch a ball, you will probably need a lubricated wad underneath to isolate the powder completely. Maybe you could get away with wiping solid crisco over the top, but that gets messy and quite frankly in Florida it will start to melt and run out in the heat of the summer & a hot cylinder from firing. On the other hand, the fouling will be soft.

I would spend $15 and go buy some .454 balls. If you have a pietta (most likely), even .452 balls will probably work. It's cheap compared to hurting yourself or your weapon from a chain fire... not to mention the cost of buying new underwear when it happens in your hand.

Funderb
April 24, 2009, 02:24 PM
hahaha, yes sir. I'll definitely get the next box of .454s i can get my hands on.
What about using a nice wool wad? Its either that or the slingshot gets them! jello?

I have heard of using an inert, like corn meal, as a wad. Any experiences?

SWC Bonfire
April 24, 2009, 04:09 PM
Corn meal or cream of wheat would help isolate the powder, but it wouldn't do anything to keep the bullet from rolling out the cylinder. Another thing that I have noticed when using cream of wheat in paper cartridges is that you don't pour powder perfectly flat, it usually is higher on one side than the other, which leads to mixing when you pour filler on top.

That said, you would do well to use some inert filler to ensure that the ball is compressed against the powder on a reduced load, especially very light ones. There shouldn't be any gap between powder and projectile. The ram will only seat a bullet so far, so if you don't fill out the cavity with powder you need to add filler.

FYI, I have a brass .44 1851 "navy" myself... it was my first BP gun. I still have it and shoot it. It points very well and is enjoyable to shoot with a light 22 gr load of FFFg 777, cream of wheat filler and .454 ball.

Funderb
April 26, 2009, 04:06 PM
Thanks, SWC, I'm glad you're still enjoying it, it gives me hope. The .445 balls seat really firmly into the chamber, I checked it out on a cylinder that i wrenched the nipple off of. (sacrificial ball) It was a pretty tight fit, and had a noticeable, albeit small swaged ring around it on the inside of the chamber. It didn't roll around or anything. The swage mark was a little less than a 1/8" band around the ball.

By the way, the make is Traditions, of italy. The manual recommends the 22gr load of FFFg

Oh, and by patches, I meant using a lubed wad wad. my mistake.

mykeal
April 26, 2009, 07:51 PM
Traditions is a US importer of Italian manufactured replica revolvers; it is not an Italian company, and they do not manufacture the guns.

Funderb
April 27, 2009, 02:46 PM
oh, right. pietta
that one!
haha, I'm really good at getting this wrong.

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