[Combat-wombat]

I think we need a good Home Defense shotgun. I'm not sure how soon we'll get it, but I'm hoping we eventually do. I'm thinking of a Mossberg 500 "Persuader"....

Anyway, when or if we do get this shotgun, what ammo would be best for HD, 00 Buck or Slugs? Why? What specific kind/brand of shot/slugs is the best?

[MJRW]

00. I think slugs are appropriate if you plan to see many armored criminals or have many Letterman style bear break-ins.

[Dave McCracken]

Slugs are nigh useless for HD. As for buck, all 00 is effective, but one brand may pattern much tighter than others in your shotgun and ONLY testing will establish what works best.

Search the archives, there's reams of material on this....

[Mike Irwin]

No. 4 buckshot.

27 pellets, substantially more payload weight and a lot more energy delivered to the target.

My home shotgun has 5 Remington No. 4 buck 2 3/4" shells in the tube, with 5 S&B 00 buck (12 pellet loads) in a carrier on the buttstock.

[Jim Watson]

Buckshot. I use OO, 'cause I can't find light load OOO.

If I want a rifle, I have them that hold a lot more shots than a shotgun full of slugs.

[rayra]

000 or No.4
Good spread, good punch, lessened over-penetration issues.

[Tomac]

00 buck for me, don't need the penetration issues w/slugs for HD (but there are slugs stored on the shotgun "just in case"). Once you've decided then purchase several different brands and pattern test them out of your shotgun as shotguns can show a distinct preference for a particular load (mine likes Federal Premium 00 buck the best).
Tomac

[Gordon]

Since 00 doesn't seem to stop 150lb leopards, why would I want to use it to stop crack monsters? Jim Cirrullo says:" nothing beats a .73 caliber rifle slug at close range" sounds good to me. BUT I don't live in an apartment, only my wife iand me in house 1000 feet from neighbors. ;)

[tiberius]

Slugs are nigh useless for HD.


Useless? There may be better choices, but useless?

[Al Thompson]

"nigh" - better than nothing. Depending on your exact circumstances, it could actually be a very bad decision. FWIW, of the 10 or so deer I've either killed or seen killed with slugs, I've never recovered a single slug. If your in an apartment, that over penetration could be deadly to folks down range - like the next door neighbors.

[tiberius]

Yeah, I noted the use of "nigh" and I am also aware of the dangers of over-penetration in some environments. This does not make them "nigh useless", however.

Personally I keep my HD SG stoked with 00.

[rayra]

Dark, in the home, unknown enemy - the very reasons you want a SCATTERgun. To then stuff it with slugs - singular projectiles - ***'s the point of that?
You want a load that compromises between scatter and penetration/punch.

[tiberius]

Dark, in the home, unknown enemy - the very reasons you want a SCATTERgun. To then stuff it with slugs - singular projectiles - ***'s the point of that?

OK I do not disagree with anything you said, but..... How does any of what you said prove that slugs are "nigh useless" ? Are they more useless than my pistol? or a rifle?


I'm not advocating slugs by the way. I just haven't heard ANYTHING that makes them "nigh useless". If I had A SG loaded with slugs and someone broke into my house, I think I would find them pretty darn USEFUL.

[98G]

**Dark, in the home, unknown enemy - the very reasons you want a SCATTERgun. To then stuff it with slugs - singular projectiles - ***'s the point of that?
You want a load that compromises between scatter and penetration/punch.**

At inside the house ranges you don't get much spread from anything anyway.....



98G

[Al Thompson]

Well, in my humble abode, my longest shot is 15 yards or so. Directly beyond that shot is my neighbor's home. Center punch a bad guy with a slug and it could very possibly go from my home to the guy next doors home with ease. Same/same shot using a lighter load drasticly reduces my chances of having to explain to his Mom why he took a 1 OZ slug in the head. FWIW, my load of choice in the SG that covers that angle is #2 shot as a first up.

Any other place in the house, it's 5 yards max. At 5 yards, a load of #8s spreads about 5 to 7 inches out of my CYL choked SGs. I don't use that load, but it's worth keeping in mind that the average spread of an inch per yard has been very well documented, both here and on TFL.

Bottom line - you have to aim that SG - the "handheld Claymore" beloved of Hollywood is a lie. Fake. Trash. Hocus Pokus. :)

There's darn little scattter in a scatter gun at HD ranges. Measure your abode's engagement zones and test your combination at the range.

And this also assumes the bad guy holds still while we shoot him. What about misses?:what:

[stevelyn]

Since 00Buck dosen't seem to stop 150lb leopard, why would I use it against crack monsters?

Stopping charging leopards out on the Serengeti plain and a crack monster inside your residence are really two different animals.
I can promise you that any crack monster or other two-legged predator solidly hit with 00Buck at room distances is going need a major overhaul on their medical records.

[foghornl]

My "HD" shotty is the Maverick 88 by Mossberg, with the 18-1/2" cylinder barrel. Best patterning load I have found so far is the Remmy 3" Mag #4 Buck shot. At 35 yards, 34-37 of the 41 pellets will still be on a 30"x30" square of paper. 00Buck (15-pellet 3"Mag) will only have 1 or 2 on the same paper.

Also, once you obtain your HD shotty, buy a 5 or 10 round box of all the different loads you can find, and pattern test them all. When you find the one load YOUR shotty 'likes' the best, buy a bunch.

That's why I have 250 of the Remmy 3" #4 Buck, and 200 PMC brand slugs.

[Badger Arms]

Foghornl:

Did I get you right, you want a shotgun that patterns well at 35 yards? Now, I've got to get me a house your size! Just remember what was said earlier, aim your shotgun inside a house no matter what you think the spread is. Sounds like your charge is going to be in a nice little 2" cluster at typical HD ranges.

[Al Thompson]

BA, he, like me, may simply like to plan for both indoor festivities as well as out door "get togethers". :)

There's a reeason I know the ranges to my prominant land marks in front of my humble abode. :cool:

[Checkman]

While one has to take into account one's home and all those other factors I don't agree with the statment that slugs and 00 are worthless. Those rounds work if the shotguns are aimed and used correctly. Many a cop, soldier, marine, sailor and armed citizen made it through a scrap with 00 and slugs in their respective shotguns. Worthless?:confused: :confused:

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's All-

Here lately, I've been staggering Federal #4 Buck;
with 00 Buck, in our Remington 12 gague 870
Marine Magnum. :uhoh: :D

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Al Thompson]

Checkman, it all depends on the terrain. If your inside a hotel room or apartment, heavy buck shot and slugs may be worse than worthless. They may be considered "reckless" and make you criminally liable..

Folks, we're responsible for every pellet or slug we launch down range - best to know your backstops and plan accordingly. Heck, one of the biggest advantages of a SG is variety of ammo.

[Dave McCracken]

Yup, nigh useless. Here's why...

Rottweil Brennekes always exit on broadside shots on good sized deer, and lesser slugs almost do so all the time too. A few layers of drywall do not offer enough resistance,and folks a few walls or buildings away may be endangered.

Outside, it's way different. One may need to place a slug accurately to stop a foe, and we could need to do so through sheet metal or light cover.

But the question here was HD, so performance outside is moot.

Back when Jim Cirillo was part of the NY Stakeout Squad in Harlem, the guys ended up using Ithaca DS pumps with slugs for fast takedowns of armed, drugged and/or insane perps. In some cases, buck just didn't do it.

And while I do not advocate slugs for HD, the Sidesaddle on the HD 870 carries two KO Brenekkes, just in case. Life is uncertain, which is why some of us have guns and train with them.

[Ryder]

Are they more useless than my pistol? or a rifle?

Somewhere in between the two. Weight it more toward the rifle. A 3/4 inch hole through and through is definately better than your run of the mill self defense pistol but it wont open up an explosive exit wound the way a rifle tends to at close range. Lessen maybe you hit em in between the eyes. :what:

[foghornl]

Badger:

In my particular shotty, the 00/000 go all over the place, while #4 stays fairly tight. My reasoning, which may be faulty, is that if the bad guys take off in their car, going the wrong way, they will have to swoosh around when they get to the cul-de-sac about 5 houses down, and around a 90 degree bend. After they make the turn-around, and the 90 degree bend, they will be 60 yards away, headed toward me. A couple of seconds later, gets real ugly for them.....

[Blain]

Since 00 doesn't seem to stop 150lb leopards


Sure it does, there is nothing I'd rather have against a leopard.

[Al Thompson]

Blain, considering that you've apparently never used a shotgun on game (despite being asked numerous times), how do you come to this conclusion?

[Double Naught Spy]

rayra stated...
Dark, in the home, unknown enemy - the very reasons you want a SCATTERgun. To then stuff it with slugs - singular projectiles - ***'s the point of that? You want a load that compromises between scatter and penetration/punch.

I sort of have to agree with an additional query. I have trouble understanding why people buy scatterguns and then get the tightest possbile choke on it for home defense. My complaint for an in home defense is that my 18.25 unchoked barrel doesn't have enough spread. What is the point of having a scattergun if I have to aim it with about the same precision as a rifle?

[Blain]

Blain, considering that you've apparently never used a shotgun on game (despite being asked numerous times), how do you come to this conclusion?
When Earnest Hemingway was about to go after a leopard into the cat's grass bed his assistant realized that he had forgotten the buckshot loads. All that was left was some #8 birdshot. Hemingway said, "At the distance I'll be shooting it doesn't matter what load I'm using". He killed the leopard in one shot.


"I went Bear hunting in Michigan this year after waiting seven years to get a tag. This is my first bear hunt and it was a full moon, so like deer the bears were moving late. I opted to take my 3 1/2 inch mossberg and use buckshot. The bear came in fifteen yards and never moved another inch. All eighteen pellets hit the bear. A nice humane kill. That Mossberg is one bad gun within 50 yards.

Blain, thanks for the reassurance of using the buckshot. I have used buckshot for deer and coyotes. I only use it in areas where my shot will be within 70 yards. I would put a 3 1/2inch buckshot against any gun. I once shot at a doe and dropped two deer with one single shot. I use a turkey choke and can put 12 pellets in a paper plate at 50 yards. I would say that is very deadly. The bear I shot, all eighteen pellets went right through the bear makin a hole about the size of a galf ball. A couple pellets went and hit the other shoulder, destroying it. A good, clean, humane kill. Thats what we all strive for. "



"The deer picks his way within 35 yards of us and stops broadside. He sees us but I guess doesn't know what we are since he doesn't bound away. He walks a little more and as he goes behind a bush I move into shooting position. His tail is flagging, but he doesn't run. I fire my 3" 15 pellet 00 buckshot and he is hit by 11 of them at that distance (five go through both lungs). They all penetrate to the far side stoping against the skin with one pellet busting his far shoulder. He fell right there and expired 20 seconds or so later. Meat tasted great! The steaks were a little gamey, but then it was my first deer and maybe I just wasn't used to the taste."


"Kilgor

I've shot 50 deer. Those shot(with buckshot) while standing still went NO where(except bow shots)."



“Just got a trophy boar 330 Lbs after literally 6 months of baiting etc etc.
Big fellow just walked in at about 10 yds from me .I was hardly behind any cover but the secret was sit motionless.As he began to eat some garbage lying around I raised my gun(It was not so that because of the garbage they were fearless,they are regularly shot here and bolt at the slightest sound/movement).Another boar had just bolted from there minutes earlier.This fellow would have heard him bolt and been cautious but it appeared he was fearless.
I was using a double berrelled shotgun with super X- OOB (2,3/4" 9 pellets buckshot).When the gun was up his belly was towards me and I could have emptied both the barrels at the expence of loosing some fine meat.I am an old hand now and can control --and did control my pounding heart.Being just 10 yds away all area ahead was target and lots of it--you could swing your gun left to right and it was him.
I waited for about 5 minutes.I must mention there was hardly any cover in front of me .I was only 25% covered and was also silloutted against the sky.He was fearless and that was to my advantage.I sat stone dead and as he turned and began to moove off I blasted off at his spine in the heart lung area(from slightly above)He was curving right so I missed the spine but bust his right lung real well.
He took off with such giant energy that left me spellbound .I could possibly never fire the secoud barrel for in 2-3 seconds he had gone 100 yds or so at top speed.he had so much force that he could tave pulled a loaded 5 ton truck with him.Awesome energy.
Normal getaway tracks--no blood--and people started to believe I had missed.I asked them to take me to a tree I had marked along the skyline and there he was -stone dead.”



“Pepaw a few years ago I shot a nice buck standing in some broomsage at about 35 yds. ( we dog hunt in my part of the country so we use shot guns ) I was using 0 buckshot in a 12 gauge, the deer droped like he had been pole axed, a friend was up the road about 200 yds. and I waited untill he came to where I was standing and we walked down to look at the deer, well if he died he had gone to heaven, body and all.”



“Blain-
Here are the examples I know of.
1) Several years back, a farmer I knew had a problem black bear, so he took to keeping his shotgun handy. The bear appeared close by,, he grabbed his gun, and shot it once with 2 3/4" OO. The bear dropped dead at the shot. wo pellets had hit in the head and pierced the skull.
2)A fellow I know also had a problem bear coming to his property. He shot it in the chest and shoulder, it was slightly quartering towards him. That bear took off running, and was shot again, in the side of the ribs. That slowed him up but didn't kill him. A final shot brought him down, and killed him. OO buckshot.

3) A good friend was working at a logging camp, and they had a problem bear. One day they surprised the bear, which ran up a tree. He shot it with a OO 2 3/4 shell. This dropped the bear to the ground, where it began thrashing about and trying to get up. A follow up shot at close range to the head killed it.

4)A fellow I met had worked as a guide in northern BC. They were heading through the bush when they surprised a grizzly on a carcass. The bear charged, and was shot once in the shoulder. This didn't even faze him. A second shot to the head put the bear down. 3" Copperplated 00.

I only witnessed the first one, but have no reason to doubt the other stories. The RCMP aropund here have taken to carrying slugs to deal with bears when the CO's can't attend, and I heard it was because the 00 wasn't doing too well. That is hearsay, of course.
When i carry a shotgun for protecton, they would come out the barrel as slug, OOO, slug slug slug. I throw the buck in there to give me a higher hit chance. Right or wrong, it's what I do.”



"The outfitter himself carried a 12 gauge loaded with OO Buckshot. Turns out he had killed a charging grizzly with it a few years earlier. It was a medium-sized sow which charged him while he was field-dressing an elk. He hit it in the shoulder the first shot, doing great damage and knocking it down, but it got up and charged again. He shot it in the head at close range, killing it. Ruled justifiable self-defense by the powers that be.

OO buck wouldn't be my choice for bear defense, but this guy had results you just couldn't argue with.
Good Shooting, CoyDog"



"When we last debated the subject I was using 30-06 to shoot hogs and finding little success. The hogs would run for long distances and were almost impossible to find or retrieve. I switched to magnum buckshot (#1 Buck) and changed tactics. I built a quasi-deer-stand over their wallow, and sat quietly for about two hours.
The hogs appeared. I ran through all 5 shots and ended up with 4 kills and a maybe. The distance was about 20 yards and one of the shots was on a boar that weighed approx 300 lbs. He ran 30 yards and died (buckshot hit with his neck and shoulder), and the rest made it about 5 or 10 yards and dropped nicely. BUCKSHOT WORKS! I just wish I had more ammo capacity with my 870 or I would have been able to drop 2 or 3 more pigs"



"The buckshot isn't supposed to be the stopper. I don't care what kind of animal it is, if a good blast of 00 Buck doesn't kill it, it will sure as hell stop it for a second. That is all the time you will need to take careful aim and administer the slug.

I was out deer hunting with a friend and we were walking back to camp and we came over a hill and saw a buck munching with his head behind a big tree and we were able to sneak up within about 40yds of it. It was my friends first hunt and he was pretty nervous and I let him have the shot with my shotgun using 00 Buck. He shot once and made a kill shot in the neck, with one of the balls actually running up the neck into the brain. The deer jumped and he immediately fired another round into its hind quarter for fear that he had missed with the first shot. (As a side note, he shot twice so fast it sounded like a machinegun, and this was with a Win 1300 pump no less)

The second shot almost completely severed the left back leg between the knee and the hip. There was nothing buy a little hide holding it on.

Because of that experience and seeing what that kind of damage those two shots inflicted, I have a lot of faith in some accurately applied buck shot. I think that at a close enough range a decently placed shot would be fatal to a moderate sized bear. Still though, nice to have a slug to back it up.

Michael"



"In Africa the Shotgun loaded with SST is what is called for when a big cat is wounded and in the tall grass,not the rifle."



"A couple of yrs ago I shot a deer that ran 40 yds in front of me at a full gallop with 00 buckshot; hit him right in the head. It was like I hit him in the head with an aluminum baseball bat. It was quite impressive!"



"I have never been in a life or death situation but have used a shotgun to take a lot of deer. I have taken one at 65 yards when using 3 1/2 " shells, and deer go down alot harder than some intruder might.As for the kick I have never even noticed it a bit ,even with 3 1/2" 000 buck and i can cycle through the shells in flash when i have to.In my mind the pump shotgun is my first choice."

[Al Thompson]

Thanks for proving my point. Apparently the only thing you can do is repeat other's comments. Or at least some comments from somewhere - no sources cited.

[Sisco]

Not sure about the legality of flechettes, following quote was taken from a website selling flechette rounds.
Read more at http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/index.html

"Combat evaluations from May 1967 to February 1968 were made with flechettes, M162 00 buckshot, and XM257 #4 buckshot. Flechette ammunition indicated a high lethality at all ranges with several one shot kills at engagement ranges to 100 yards, flechettes were preferred by combatants equally to 00 buckshot during this test phase. Flechette ammunition and 00 buckshot were also equally preferred over the issued XM257 #4 buckshot, which proved ineffective under combat conditions, lacking the penetration and terminal performance of either flechettes or 00 buckshot."

[JShirley]

I've heard some reports that reduced recoil slugs have much less penetration than standard slugs. My Remington RR slugs indicate this on the box, as well. I plan on testing in water in the near future. Personally, I like Remington slugs quite a bit. The shot I took yesterday was through and through, but I also hit the deer at just about the narrowest part possible, high neck just behind the head.

John

[Edward429451]

What is the point of having a scattergun if I have to aim it with about the same precision as a rifle?

For the combination of power and safety. At typical HD ranges even a load of #8's will not open up much. Hits more like a slug (heresay, not tested by me, but I believe it) but OTOH a miss will not penetrate like a slug does so neighbors will be safe(er). So if in the house you're throwing what amounts to a 2" slug at him at widest dispersion, you can easily still miss him!

When you put that scattergun mentality aside and aim it like a rifle, you suddenly get lots better with the SG. I don't like shotloads cept for ducks which I hardly ever hunt, and the first two for HD. I think light skeet loads are dandy for HD. I also have some 00 and slugs on it too...

[Youngster]

I don't know if I could trust birdshot, especially light birdshot, for HD beyond the distance where the shot is still clumped together. I found it's barely able to penetrate things like emptied lidless plastic milk jugs at only a few yards, that's if it doesn't bounce off outright.

[JShirley]

I know someone who was shot at a few feet when he was young and possibly even dumber than he is today, with a .410 with bird shot. Abdomen. He lived. I know some of you are thinking of using larger calibers than .410, but I've been unimpressed by shot at close range.