Whats a broke white boy to do when he wants a pistol gripped shotgun to compliment his collection?
Make his own of course!
I used to own a pistol gripped 18.5" Winchester 1300 Defender 12ga but sold due to hard times. I loved that gun, my only qualm was the safety. I strongly prefer the Mossberg safeties and I lucked out a few months ago when a guy offered me a Westernfield 550AB 12ga (Montgomery Wards branded Mossberg 500ab) for $125. The functions flawlessly, not a single problem with the hundreds of rounds I've already shot through it.
The first picture is not of my Westernfield 550ab (I never thought to take a picture BEFORE I started modifying), but of an identical one I came across.
Tiz a mighty fine gun, fine as is, buuuuuttt..... I want a sawed off pistol grip and a 19"> barrel... so, like I said, whats a broke white boy to do? Make his own (especially the barrel since I'd rather not spend more money on a barrel than I did for the whole gun)
Note: The only tools I had handy were a Cheap Leatherman knockoff (which provided the saw), a homemade knife (pictured), my trusty files, and some sandpaper.
Pretty much the finished slightly oiled grip (Idk why it looks so dirty, it's very nice in person). I also screwed in a sling swivel mount to the butt of the grip.
Very comfortable and can't wait to try it out. It's weird with a 28" ribbed barrel, but that'll be cut down to 18.25" soon.
So far i've used the same basic hand tools to build 2 knives, a knive scabbard/sheath/holster/whatever you wanna call it, a speedloader holster, sporterize a M44, build a sawed off shotgun grip out of a regular stock, and bob the hammer on my S&W 581. It's cost $0 and just a few hours to do all this stuff. I love doin this stuff!
Just thought i'd share with my HighRoad Comrades, have a good day!
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PX15
April 22, 2009, 07:49 PM
FWIW:
I just moseyed down to the local gun store and bought myself one... Neat that you have the skill to "do it yourself", is it legal?
Nice project!
Here's one I started last year but I still need to get a bolt and bed it into the grip....
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/Candown/Grizclaw2.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b358/Candown/Grizclaw3.jpg
ColdCoffeeMug
April 22, 2009, 09:44 PM
LeadHead, how short did you cut that barrel?
ColdCoffeeMug
April 22, 2009, 09:52 PM
Forget my question. I noticed you're Canadian...
CWL
April 22, 2009, 10:15 PM
Leadhead,
I can't help but notice that "point" you left at the rear of the grip. Looks painful if you're firing that off the hip!
Leadhead
April 22, 2009, 10:37 PM
The point is there for a few reasons,
...so I can make legal overall length for non restricted status in Canada
...so I can still buttstroke a goblin to make a point
....and I liked the look!:)
It's a factory 14" 870 clone from china and it's actually a pretty decent gun!
Leadhead
April 22, 2009, 10:44 PM
Leadhead,
I can't help but notice that "point" you left at the rear of the grip. Looks painful if you're firing that off the hip!
I've never tried firing from the hip with the grip up against my body...If I fire from the hip the gun is usually more to the side.
I really don't find it that hard to control the recoil of up to 2 3/4" slugs with a "birds head" style pistol grip.
BhmBill
April 23, 2009, 01:50 AM
Thank you gentlemen.
PX15, it's very legal. When the mods are done, it'll be around 29" overall with a 18.25" barrel. Plenty legal!
Leadhead, That's very nice! Looks like the Norinco version of the 870. Those are veeeery good clones. My brother has one and its.... dare I say.... as good or better than my Rem 870. For $225, you CANT go wrong with the Norinco 870 clone.
I forgot to add that I kept the grip kind of thick because of my big ol' hands and I wanted it as short as possible. It fits me PERFECT, but anyone with small - medium hands may find it a bit girthy :D
I can't believe how much more comfortable this is that the regular more vertical style shotgun pistol grips.
Pete409
April 24, 2009, 08:42 AM
"Whats a broke white boy to do when he wants a pistol gripped shotgun to compliment his collection?"
Sit down and take a few deep breaths until the momentary insanity passes. :D
RandKL
April 24, 2009, 08:52 AM
Bill, are you the guy that I buy my cast slugs from on Gunbroker??? Initials B.B.?
Just wondering. Your names are quite similar and you both are obvious shotgun folks.
richard
ArmedBear
April 24, 2009, 09:27 AM
It's one thing to do that to an old Mossberg, but butchering an old Model 37 that way is not something I'd admit to in public, to say nothing of posting a picture.
VA27
April 24, 2009, 10:52 PM
What to do when you want a pistol gripped shotgun...
Hold up your strong hand and have a friend whack the web of your hand with a dull hatchet until the 'want' goes away?
Leadhead
April 24, 2009, 11:35 PM
VA27,
Where can I find this "dull" hatchet and how will it help me shoot better?
I'm guessing you had a "bad" experience shooting a pistol gripped shotgun....have you tried the horizontal types or has your experience only been limited to vertical style?
For the record,
Pistol grips don't out perform full stocks
Pistol grips do require a different technique and practice......ideally starting with light loads and working up to heavy...
Pistol grips are not for everyone.
Pistol grips are not created equally nor do they all perform to the same level.
Pistol grips seem to annoy some shotgunners probably due to Hollywood movies and the "look cool" factor.
chuckusaret
April 24, 2009, 11:51 PM
Nice looking gun. I have a Mossberg 500 Persuader 20" barrel. Was too lazy to cut one of my old guns down myself. Been thinking about having an old 12 ga SS cut down, they look mean, to carry in the truck.
BhmBill
April 25, 2009, 01:37 AM
Hold up your strong hand and have a friend whack the web of your hand with a dull hatchet until the 'want' goes away?
Huh?
I had a Winchester 1300 pistol grip defender and regularly shot 3" magnum loads out of it, then would grab my .500 mag BFR and blow off a couple dozen loads.
Not everyone is sensitive to recoil.
I WANT a pistol gripped shotty.
Dave McCracken
April 25, 2009, 10:57 AM
First, sober up.
Second, do try one before laying out your hard earned cash.
There's a zillion slightly used PGs out there. There's a message in that alone.
As for folks burning off 3" maggies in a 5 lb PGO, I'd like to see it.
Will have a first aid kit handy when I do. If ever. It seems to happen more on the Net than on the range...
Leadhead
April 25, 2009, 12:47 PM
......the problem with the zillion's of used ones is the majority are of the poor design......a speedfeed is a little harder to find used but they are out there....the pachmayer's aren't too bad either.
If you are going to try one pay an extra $25 bucks for a new Speedfeed is my advice......plus if you do want to sell it you won't have to compete with one zillion minus sellers! :)
FFMedic
April 25, 2009, 04:40 PM
The Knoxx Breacher's Grip is truely amazing for a PGO shotgun. Well worth the $100 or so.
FFMedic
WardenWolf
April 25, 2009, 05:23 PM
If I want a pistol gripped shotgun, I'll convert a Saiga. Sorry, I don't like cut up guns, and I don't like the idea of an unbraced 12 gauge.
Titan6
April 25, 2009, 06:29 PM
*Sigh* I am disappointed but hardly surprised. Some of you guys need counseling.
BhmBill
April 25, 2009, 07:01 PM
Sorry for not modifying or owning the stuff you guys think I should.
Unless someone else donates the money for me to set up MY guns the way THEY think I should, I'll do what I please to MY guns. I guess dropping $100 on a grip may not be much to some of you, and to some of us, it is.
As for folks burning off 3" maggies in a 5 lb PGO, I'd like to see it.
I'll see if I can get the videos from my brother (which may be hard with him recently leaving for Afaghanistan) of me chronographing 3" slugs and hot .500 mag loads.
Titan6
April 25, 2009, 07:35 PM
Unless someone else donates the money for me to set up MY guns the way THEY think I should, I'll do what I please to MY guns. I guess dropping $100 on a grip may not be much to some of you, and to some of us, it is.
I think dropping $100 for a PGO is even worse.
At least what you did didn't cost a penny and was performed on a cheap shotgun. I would suggest that shooting a PGO shotgun before making one might have been the way to go. If you still want one then, I would be curious why. It is your stuff do with it as you will but it sure doesn't make it right.
BhmBill
April 25, 2009, 07:36 PM
Bill, are you the guy that I buy my cast slugs from on Gunbroker??? Initials B.B.?
Just wondering. Your names are quite similar and you both are obvious shotgun folks.
richard
Probably not, I haven't bought any slugs on GB in awhile.
It's one thing to do that to an old Mossberg, but butchering an old Model 37 that way is not something I'd admit to in public, to say nothing of posting a picture.
Who butchered a 37?
At least what you did didn't cost a penny and was performed on a cheap shotgun. I would suggest that shooting a PGO shotgun before making one might have been the way to go. If you still want one then, I would be curious why. It is your stuff do with it as you will but it sure doesn't make it right.
Please refer to sentence 3 of the OP...
"I used to own a pistol gripped 18.5" Winchester 1300 Defender 12ga but sold due to hard times."
The PG was.... fun? I don't get what the big deal is. Are people really this sensitive to recoil?
If I am, i'll gladly toss down the money for a decent stock and never use a PGO shotgun again.
Todd A
April 26, 2009, 02:06 PM
The PG was.... fun? I don't get what the big deal is. Are people really this sensitive to recoil?
Don't take it personal, and don't take all the negative comments seriously.
This happens with every PGO thread.
Some negative posters actually know what they are talking about. These posters spent time and ammo using a PGO. After which they decided for their purpose the negatives of a PGO did not outweigh the good of a full stocked gun.
I can respect these poster's opinions, as they are based on fact.
On the other hand others base their opinions on net videos, firing one or two shells, or reports of a friend's Uncle's brother's sister's boy friend's knocking out five teeth and a broken nose when he fired one.
Some more just want to jump on the bandwagon and slam someone's personal choice in a shotgun.
If you like your shotgun great.:) Take it out and enjoy running shells through it!!
Ohh ya. My well used 500 is sporting a PGO again for an upcomming hiking/camping trip.
A PGO shotgun is like taking your 27" wheels off you racing bike and putting 16" wheels on so that it will fit in the car easier on the way to the race. The bike might still go but you sure are going to be behind.
Todd A
April 26, 2009, 02:14 PM
Really????
What with comments like this one....Which by the way isn't very high road..
*Sigh* I am disappointed but hardly surprised. Some of you guys need counseling.
I don't really see how your opinion matters at all.
Badger Arms
April 26, 2009, 02:39 PM
It's one thing to do that to an old Mossberg, but butchering an old Model 37 that way is not something I'd admit to in public, to say nothing of posting a picture.
Well, I wouldn't if I had done it. This was meant tongue in cheek. I did own this shotgun but I didn't do the modification. Read the story here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=17135
BhmBill
April 26, 2009, 04:25 PM
A PGO shotgun is like taking your 27" wheels off you racing bike and putting 16" wheels on so that it will fit in the car easier on the way to the race. The bike might still go but you sure are going to be behind.
Must everything be set up for race/performance? Couldn't possibly be set up for the purpose of fun, could it?
Some negative posters actually know what they are talking about. These posters spent time and ammo using a PGO. After which they decided for their purpose the negatives of a PGO did not outweigh the good of a full stocked gun.
Thank youuuu. It seems alot of people are upset because someone elses gun isn't set up how they want, think, or feel it should be. Just because someone elses property doesn't suit their needs, doesn't mean it isn't useful for whatever purpose the owner finds for it.
Thank you again, sir. I most definitely will run shells through it. I got a couple hundred shells for it, everything from #7.5 birdshot to 00 buck.
Titan6
April 26, 2009, 05:53 PM
I don't really see how your opinion matters at all.
Touchy, touchy.... lighten up, go to Walmart and buy a sense of humor.
Leadhead
April 26, 2009, 06:39 PM
The way I see it....
A PGO shotgun is like taking your 27" wheels off you racing bike and putting 16" wheels on so that it will fit in the car easier on the way to the race. The bike might still go but you sure are going to be behind.
The way I see it is if you enjoy the ride on 16" wheels.....have at er!:)
Touchy, touchy.... lighten up, go to Walmart and buy a sense of humor.
Do they sell manners at Wallmart as well?
mgregg85
April 26, 2009, 06:53 PM
Hmm, what to do when you want a PGO shotgun.
Try holding one up to your face to aim it and then pull the trigger on a 3" mag round.
Repeat as often as necessary.
Nah, I've got a 20ga PGO that I use for fun while plinking, it might be slightly more maneuverable in tight spaces but I still prefer a shotgun to have a stock. I guess I don't see the benefit of a normal PGO shotgun for any real situation.
But I'm sure I could find a use for this little guy, if only Michigan allowed AOWs.:banghead:
http://www.serbu.com/top/super_shorty_870.jpg
theotherwaldo
April 26, 2009, 07:29 PM
I've got two pistol-gripped pumps. Both are found guns, neither had wants against them, and both get used. My sister is rather partial to one of them, as it was at hand during an attempted B&E.
That said, I'd never take a functional, intact shotgun and chop it up that way. Bubba's beaters are too easy to come by. Why make more?
Now, I have been known to expand upon Bubba's ideas... .
RandKL
April 26, 2009, 10:30 PM
(Hope this is the right thread)
Well, I like pistol grips. Always have. Made a few here and there, bought more than a few. Even learned how to make birdshead Speedfeed pistol grips when they screwed the pooch on so many Mossy grips these past years. Currently have five. Three are on guns, two are on canes. Yeah, I invented the pistol grip walking stick with an ATI Thompson-style grip on an inch and a quarter diam maple stick.
Me, personally, I can't stand folks who try to hunt with pistols. More game has been tortured and maimed with pistols than any other type of firearm. But raise that topic among pistol hunters and see how quick you get cussed.
I guess to each his own, as they say.
Keep cutting your stocks, Bill. Do with your equipment what you want. It's yours. Chances are, I did the same thing a few times. I enjoy customizing, too.
Ahhhh, what the hell. I have a Mossy stock that has a few inches of water stain on it. I think I'll cut it just for fun.
richard
BhmBill
April 26, 2009, 11:05 PM
Keep cutting your stocks, Bill. Do with your equipment what you want. It's yours. Chances are, I did the same thing a few times. I enjoy customizing, too.
Thank you, sir, you too.
JShirley
April 26, 2009, 11:09 PM
One of these days, I may try out the M4-style sliding stock with a pistol grip on a shotgun. While I know the M4 stock won't handle the recoil as well, I think this setup might be a decent compromise of reduced OAL but control.
I was especially thinking a setup like this might be useful for Alaskan bush pilots and such.
John
BhmBill
April 26, 2009, 11:18 PM
If you havent heard of them and If you have the $125 or so, check out the Knoxx "spec ops" stocks. My brother has one on his Norinco 870 clone and it's great.
Like that. Sliding adjustable PG shotty. THEY hold up, fired many many many slugs out of that gun with that stock.
txman321
April 27, 2009, 12:33 AM
sure looks mean, My buddies got a pistol grip shotgun man do they kick but they are alot of fun
Coronach
April 27, 2009, 02:23 PM
One of these days, I may try out the M4-style sliding stock with a pistol grip on a shotgun. While I know the M4 stock won't handle the recoil as well, I think this setup might be a decent compromise of reduced OAL but control.We issue that style at work now. The particular maker is ATI. I have no idea why we went this route, as it really is a crappy solution (probably more related to the maker than the general design).
The setup is light and flimsy. It makes an already nose-heavy gun even more nose-heavy.
You have to constantly watch the screws and bolts. They like to work their way loose.
The drop in the stock is all messed up. You cannot get a good sight picture, unless you really jam your cheek down onto the stock. Even then, you still cannot get the proper alignment, and your shots tend to be off in elevation.
A better-made stock would probably eliminate most of these problems. ATI is not known as a real top-end maker. ;) I would absolutly try an example for fit, though, beforehand, particularly in reference to the stock's drop.
As for PGO shotguns, I have shot them, I have seen them shot, and I have seen people run realistic courses of fire with them, both alone and alongside fully stocked shotguns.
You can have them. I have no use for them.
Mike
Dave McCracken
April 27, 2009, 11:34 PM
Leesee .....
John's not only a recently returned vet with tours in both A stan and Iraq, but someone who has qualified with everything up to crew served artillery.
Coronach is an LEO and has extensive street experience as well as training above and beyond departmental fiat.
And most folks think I know something about shooting shotguns.
We have little use for PGO shotguns, with or without super duper spring loaded gimmick stocks.
I note we don't see them at 3 gun matches, CAS matches, Skeet matches, Trap matches, on Sporting Clays courses, or in the hunting fields.
In fact. we rarely see them except in entertainments and on the Net.
[sarcasm}
Of course, any of the folks advocating their use is welcome to come out to PGC range inb MD and amaze and delight me with your expertise.
[/sarcasm].....
RandKL
April 28, 2009, 12:16 AM
I note we don't see them at 3 gun matches, CAS matches, Skeet matches, Trap matches, on Sporting Clays courses, or in the hunting fields.
Pretty lame straw man argument, Dave.
You don't see crossbows, broadswords, single shot pistols, spears etc at any of those matches, either. But just because one weapon isn't suited for a particular type of use doesn't mean it's not useful at all. You don't see pistols being used for skeet for example.
Using a pistol grip shotgun is no different from fast draw comp at CAS events. You're using the weapon in a way that it wasn't designed nor intended to be used....the hip shoot without the sights....but it's useful because the user has *practiced* it enough to be useful.
rich
BhmBill
April 28, 2009, 12:54 AM
[sarcasm}
Of course, any of the folks advocating their use is welcome to come out to PGC range in MD and amaze and delight me with your expertise.
[/sarcasm].....
Pretty high road of yourself, Dave.
Thanks for the input. I'll keep that in mind that unless youre military or LEO you can't draw any sort of equitable opinion on PG shotguns.
I'll join the military, become an LEO, and be sure to do some more shotgun competitions so that I can make sure people know my views on certain shotguns and their accessories is right.
I've done xxxx and I was an xxxx, therefore my opinion is the right one. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=445699
rbernie
April 28, 2009, 01:20 AM
You don't see crossbows, broadswords, single shot pistols, spears etc at any of those matches, either. But just because one weapon isn't suited for a particular type of use doesn't mean it's not useful at all. You don't see pistols being used for skeet for example.
This makes no sense. The point Dave made is that, in the SHOTGUN competitions, you don't see PGO shotguns used - at all. If they offered any benefit, you better believe that the competitors would be using them. The logical inference is that they don't work better than traditionally-stocked shotguns under the types of conditions found in these competitions and in the hunting fields.
I'll keep that in mind that unless youre military or LEO you can't draw any sort of equitable opinion on PG shotguns.
Sure, you can. But, as the saying goes - the only opinion that's of interest is an informed opinion. Folks that shoot A LOT will have more interesting opinions than folks that don't. Folks that shoot to train for Serious Work will likely have more interesting opinions than folk who put a handful of shells downrange every now and again.
If you fall into the former category - trot out the bona fides and have at it. But don't expect that folks that DO have some bona fides to not ask for yours, when you present data that contradicts their own experiences.
This is serious work. These are not toys. Anyone offering an opinion should be willing to man up and express the details of how that opinion was formed and under what circumstances, or expect to be chided.
That not low road. That's real life.
We don't give 'participation trophies'. We share real-life knowledge.
AKElroy
April 28, 2009, 01:31 AM
I have a barely used pachmayr decelerator pistol grip for a defender 1300 for sale cheap. I bought it 20 years ago when I thought it would look cool, actual practice convinced me to replace it with a speadfeed and turn it back into a useful weapon. Cool is as cool does.
Justin
April 28, 2009, 01:45 AM
I attended a local 3 gun match this weekend where one of the competitors was running a PGO Mossberg 20 Ga.
Now, this match is held on a fairly small range, and most of the stages involve short distances and large targets. Most of the steel targets are ones that are generally used for Cowboy Action Shooting and on the largish side. A cursory Google search tells me that 16"x16" is pretty standard for a CAS steel plate target.
At this match, I watched as this competitor, shooting a PGO shotgun at distances of ten yards, missed extremely large targets, often by more than a foot.
Let me repeat that:
With a (presumably, judging by the pattern) cylinder-bored 20 ga PGO shotgun, the competitor in question missed targets that were over a foot in diameter at extremely short range.
Not even the kids who were there to shoot their first match had that kind of problem. Despite their obvious inexperience at handling firearms in a match setting, they were still able to hit these targets with a properly stocked 870.
If the configuration of a PGO shotgun is such that it hinders making shots that are, by any standard ridiculously easy, then it is a firearm with absolutely no utility whatsoever.
It is, at best, a range toy. Trying to argue anything to the contrary is nothing more than selling yourself toupees.
crazyjennyblack
April 28, 2009, 02:21 AM
I might as well chime in on this one. I never done xxxx or was an xxxx, but I have shot a PGO shotgun. In twelve gauge, at a 25 yard range, using Winchester Super-X 2.75" 9 pellet 00 buck shells.
Accuracy is, as many have rightly pointed out, not nearly as good with a PGO. My problem was that I couldn't really sight along the barrel, so it's harder to aim, and at least for me, shooting from the hip is difficult and takes work. Your mileage may vary. As for recoil, it's very stout, but not unmanagable.
I'm fairly slight of build, and 5'8". To add to that, my strength is in my legs, not my arms, but I can still handle it. Wouldn't relish shooting the 3" "pain sticks" out of it, but then I wouldn't want to use those shells at all (personal preference).
However, that being said, I'd like to own a PGO shotgun. Mostly for fun, but also as a "beside the bed" weapon. I would want it to eject downward, though, as I'd prefer it to be ambidextrous. I know there are better choices, but at close range (10 ft or so) it would be perfect. However, beyond that, I would definitely switch to a shotgun with a shoulder stock.
Since I only see fit to use a PGO in that one situation, or maybe as a car gun, I don't consider it a worthwhile buy. If I find one for dirt cheap, I'll get it, but otherwise no.
For "serious work," I view the PGO shotgun as an "auxiliary" or "special situation" kind of weapon. I certainly would not choose it for my main one, however I wouldn't criticize anyone who wants one.
RandKL
April 28, 2009, 03:15 AM
This makes no sense. The point Dave made is that, in the SHOTGUN competitions, you don't see PGO shotguns used - at all. If they offered any benefit, you better believe that the competitors would be using them. The logical inference is that they don't work better than traditionally-stocked shotguns under the types of conditions found in these competitions and in the hunting fields.
"Makes no sense?" and yet you reiterated my point, Bernie? Might want to go back and read that again, bud.
If pistol grip shotguns "offered any benefit" in *THOSE* competitions, they would be used in *THOSE* competitions....but as I said, just because they aren't used in *THOSE* competitions, doesn't make them useless. Dave trying to suggest that *THOSE* competitions were the *ONLY* imaginable uses for a shotgun is a straw man argument. The inferred logic is only correct if you assume the initial statement is correct....which it isn't.
Crossbows aren't used in skeet shooting because they offer no benefit over a shotgun. But, just because crossbows aren't used in skeet, that doesn't make them useless in *all* possible uses. Spears aren't used in CAS shooting....they offer no benefit over a good Colt....but just because they aren't used *in that competition*, that doesn't make them useless.
You don't see many undercover cops with skeet guns hidden under their coats. You don't see many Isreali security officers armed with side by side coachguns etc etc etc. Serbu's exist for a reason. FBI agents use them, cops use them, Secret Service agents use them, gang members use them etc etc etc. Shorty shotguns with pistol grips fill the niche where massive, shortrange, CONCEALABLE firepower is needed.
richard
Justin
April 28, 2009, 04:00 AM
Ok. Well, since I'm neither an undercover cop nor a gangbanger with the need to project an image of overwhelming force, I guess the point still stands that I have no use for such a firearm.
If I ever found myself in such a situation, my preference would be for an SBS rather than a PGO SG.
RandKL
April 28, 2009, 08:36 AM
Whether or not you have a use for them is of no concern to me, Justin. Bill likes them. I do, too. You buy what you want as do we all. I personally don't like modern handguns and don't own any....but you won't be hearing me arguing to you that *you* should avoid them because they're useless *in my opinion*.
Right now, I'm wondering how many of those 12,000 posts of yours were you encouraging someone to actually *enjoy* the sport as he/she sees fit and how many were you and a few others stepping all over someone for liking something you didn't?
richard
MCgunner
April 28, 2009, 09:17 AM
Pistol grips are for pistols.
rbernie
April 28, 2009, 09:40 AM
Serbu's exist for a reason. FBI agents use them, cops use them, Secret Service agents use them, gang members use them etc etc etc. Shorty shotguns with pistol grips fill the niche where massive, shortrange, CONCEALABLE firepower is needed.Nobody said that SBS didn't have utility; what was stated was that PGO shotguns are not routinely used in anger by competitors or by anyone that goes into harms way for a living (unless as a breaching tool).
You have yet to prove otherwise.
You can't jump into a PGO thread and then shift the dialog to NFA items to support your earlier contentions. That's just nonsensical.
Right now, I'm wondering how many of those 12,000 posts of yours were you encouraging someone to actually *enjoy* the sport as he/she sees fit and how many were you and a few others stepping all over someone for liking something you didn't?
Encouraging folk is best done by speaking plainly to actual experiences and knowledge. Justin, Dave, and others have done that.
This forum is not here to make people feel better about their choices, nor about themselves. It's here to discuss and share experience and knowledge, politely and like adults.
Justin
April 28, 2009, 02:01 PM
Whether or not you have a use for them is of no concern to me, Justin. Bill likes them. I do, too. You buy what you want as do we all. I personally don't like modern handguns and don't own any....but you won't be hearing me arguing to you that *you* should avoid them because they're useless *in my opinion*.
Well, frankly, modern handguns aren't useless. They have a proven track record demonstrating their utility in a great many applications from concealed carry to the military to the Olympics to practical shooting competitions. Your opinion may be that you have no use for them, but the great number of situations in which such a pistol is useful seems to be well-established fact.
Right now, I'm wondering how many of those 12,000 posts of yours were you encouraging someone to actually *enjoy* the sport as he/she sees fit and how many were you and a few others stepping all over someone for liking something you didn't?
Well, see, I kind of lost count, because usually in between posting stuff to make noobs cry, I take a few minutes to kick a puppy, which, as you might imagine is a bit of a distraction.
Look, if shooting or owning a PGO shotgun blows your skirt up because you enjoy turning money into noise, that's fine.
But it doesn't change the basic fact that the niches where a PGO shotgun is useful are extremely limited, and even in those cases, there are better choices available.
In this thread there have already been posts from those with military experience (JShirley), police experience (Coronoch), hunting/ clay bird experience (Dave McCracken) and practically-oriented competition (myself.)
In that wide swath of experience with shotguns, you'd think that if there were a niche where PGO shotguns were useful, one of us would have found it. And had that niche been found, you can bet that any one of us would wholeheartedly embrace it.
If you believe you've found an application for PGO shotguns where they excel above and beyond other available choices, post about your experience. After all, we're all here to learn and share what we know.
Leadhead
April 28, 2009, 02:05 PM
And another pistol grip thread come to it's end with the important realisation by some that PGO will never be better then a full traditional butt stock for serious work and competition....there may be some applications but not enough for serious people.
Thank goodness we have retired old serious people who have mastered the obvious and are willing to take the time to set the (broken) record straight!
I was actually wondering why you don't see more shotgunners using PGO in competition......now I know.
Some ranges don't allow PGO for trap and I always thought it was because of some unfair advantage that it gave the shooter......guess not.
I think the serious guys around here are great when it comes to serious information and dealing with home invaders and shooting at people for a living etc.... but when it comes to having some fun at the range they are perhaps a little to set in their ways for me to ever really take them seriously.
As far as a gun being a toy because someone enjoys owning and shooting it well.......I don't consider any gun to be a toy so maybe the serious attitude has rubbed off a little on me.
It's not all goblins and enemy combatants out there people!
Some shooters enjoy shooting just for the fun of it and variety is the spice of life ! :)
Let's all embrace our differences and agree that we all love guns.
Leadhead
April 28, 2009, 02:11 PM
Look, if shooting or owning a PGO shotgun blows your skirt up because you enjoy turning money into noise, that's fine.
Turning money into noise probably describes the majority of shooters Justin.
Why does someone that enjoys shooting for fun have to wear a skirt?
Are you suggesting that the person you are addressing is some how not a man?
Justin
April 28, 2009, 02:15 PM
*shrugs*
I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. If you're happy to just go to the range and blast away, there's really nothing wrong with turning money into noise.
Personally, I don't get any satisfaction out it. I get much more enjoyment from being able to clean a Texas Star faster than ever before, or busting clays, or being able to properly execute a slug transition to hit a gong at 60 yards, or being able to execute on-the-fly reloads.
For me, the enjoyment is in the accomplishment of a particular task, of overcoming a challenge presented by a course of fire with speed and effectiveness.
Leadhead
April 28, 2009, 02:37 PM
I agree Justin I also prefer to hit what I'm aiming at.
Blasting with out aiming or hitting anything is a waste in my mind but there is probably someone out there who enjoys that..
I wish I could bring my short barreled PGO to the Republic of Grumpistan for some casual hand tossed clays.....I think you'd be surprised by the success rate and blasting clays with one hand will put a smile on even the most serious face!
Coronach
April 28, 2009, 05:08 PM
You don't see crossbows, broadswords, single shot pistols, spears etc at any of those matches, either. But just because one weapon isn't suited for a particular type of use doesn't mean it's not useful at all. You don't see pistols being used for skeet for example.Pretty sure this has been hashed already, but I'll take my whack at it.
What, pray tell, is the PGO suited for, then, if not for SOMETHING that is covered in a shooting competition? It seems that there is a shotgun competition that covers just about any and all uses for a shotgun, and the PGO fares well in exactly NONE of them.
So, what is it good for?
It's good for breaching rounds and similar specialty uses, and it's good for deployment in VERY confined spaces. Home defense? Trust me, unless you live in a Yugo, your home is not this small. If you have to carry a SG in a vehicle, or use it to bust locks and hinges, the PGO is the way to go. How many of us have to do that? Realistically. Be honest.
A stocked shotgun (PG or non-PG) will be faster and more accurate all of the time, assuming you've practiced with it as much as you have a PGO. If you're not after speed and accuracy, what are you after? Slow misses?
Now, if you just want one because of the cool factor, have at it. I'm being serious, not sarcastic. I have a safe full of stuff I bought because it was cool, or a piece of history, or rare or unique. I'm all about that. "Just 'cuz" is a perfectly good reason to own stuff. But don't buy it thinking that it has much in the line of tactical value. Buy it (or make it) because you want to own what you consider to be a cool toy.
Mike
theotherwaldo
April 28, 2009, 07:37 PM
I have one PGO shotgun that's actually fun to shoot with normal loads. It's a Filippino monstrosity that was apparently originally built with a pistol grip. The grip is bulky, fat and wide and reminiscent of a squeezed fistful of clay. It's comfortable, though, and distributes the recoil forces to almost the entire surface of my hand.
I won't say that it's particularly accurate. It isn't.
It is fun to shoot, though.
The old Western Auto with an aftermarket grip, on the other hand, is pure pain. It's kinda like grabbing a hatchet by the blade and then having someone try to pound that blade through your hand. I'd replace that stock in a second if I could find a replacement.
Luckily, I have no investment in either of these guns except for some silver solder, about a bottle of Hoppe's No. 9, and a lot of elbow grease.
RandKL
April 28, 2009, 08:26 PM
Nobody said that SBS didn't have utility; what was stated was that PGO shotguns are not routinely used in anger by competitors or by anyone that goes into harms way for a living (unless as a breaching tool).
You have yet to prove otherwise.
You can't jump into a PGO thread and then shift the dialog to NFA items to support your earlier contentions. That's just nonsensical.
I'm not talking SBS's. *We'RE* not talking SBS's. We're talking PISTOL GRIP SHOTGUNS. And yes, several people here *have* stated or implied in no unclear terms that pistol grip shotguns were useless "because their opinion makes them so."
I have proven that to be false several times.
Pistol grip shotguns aren't commonly used in competition because *they offer no benefit over conventional weapons IN THOSE COMPETITIONS*. They aren't useless BECAUSE they aren't used IN THOSE COMPETITIONS, though. They're useful in other ways.
Whether a pistol grip shotgun is an NFA weapon makes no difference. It's a pistol grip shotgun being used in ways OTHER THAN THOSE COMPETITIONS mentioned earlier so it *HAS* got a use. It isn't useless.
Proven again.
It's here to discuss and share experience and knowledge, politely and like adults.
So why are you not encouraging, helping, passing on wisdom etc etc etc instead of simply stating "I'm right and you're wrong so listen to me and do as I say?"
If you believe pistol grip shotguns to be useless, try telling us WHY you think so and what proof you have to lead us to believe so, too?
richard
rbernie
April 28, 2009, 08:32 PM
I have proven that to be false several times.Where?
Not buttstock-with-pistol-grip; pistol grip ONLY. No buttstock, as shown in posts 1, 3, 4, and 27.
Coronach
April 28, 2009, 08:40 PM
Your definition of "proven" must be different than the common usage.
Pistol grip shotguns aren't commonly used in competition because *they offer no benefit over conventional weapons IN THOSE COMPETITIONS*.Correct. In fact, not only do they not offer benefit over fully-stocked shotguns, fully-stocked shotguns have advantages over the PGO gun. However, when you consider "competition", you're considering everything from trap and skeet (where no one would expect a PGO gun to fare well), to Three-Gun and various tactical shooting competitions, where you might expect them to be a factor, and most closely imitate the supposed real-life utility of these guns. They fail to fare well there, too.They aren't useless BECAUSE they aren't used IN THOSE COMPETITIONS, though. They're useful in other ways.I asked this before. Like what? I can come up with breeching and special munitions, deploying from a vehicle, and Cool Guy Points.
Mike
RandKL
April 28, 2009, 08:59 PM
But it doesn't change the basic fact that the niches where a PGO shotgun is useful are extremely limited, and even in those cases, there are better choices available.
So? The uses of a Barrett .50bmg are more limited....are you pushing to have those done away with, too? Better choices? Your opinion?
In this thread there have already been posts from those with military experience (JShirley), police experience (Coronoch), hunting/ clay bird experience (Dave McCracken) and practically-oriented competition (myself.)
And in all that, not ONE post saying why they think they're useless or proof that they are. I've proven my point. I've given several examples where pistol grip shotguns *are* useful. You guys have yet to give ONE reason why you think they aren't. All you've said so far is "other weapons are better".
Here's a simple question for you, Justin....settles the topic left or right. No middle ground.
How many shots have you put through a conventional stock shotgun in your life? Now do *you*, and answer it honestly if you can, do *YOU* believe that if you had fired that many rounds though a pistol grip shotgun that you would still not be able to hit a target? There's only two possible answers. Yes or no. Either the pistol grip shotgun always fires off in a random direction and it can't possibly be aimed no matter how much practice you have....or *you* simply suck with pistol grip shotguns and you don't want to admit that you simply have no experience with them.
Easy question.
rich
Larry Ashcraft
April 28, 2009, 09:02 PM
Proven again.
Wrong. You must have been asleep during Logics and Geometry. About all that has been proven so far is:
1. Some people like PGO shotguns for the grin factor.
2. PGO shotguns aren't much good for traditional shotgun competitions.
RandKL
April 28, 2009, 09:07 PM
Where?
Not buttstock-with-pistol-grip; pistol grip ONLY. No buttstock, as shown in posts 1, 3, 4, and 27.
See, there you go trying to redefine the topic yet again, Bernie. The topic isn't "guns like pictured in posts yadda yadda yadda". The topic is pistol grip shotguns in general.
Serbu. Cop. DEA. FBI. Secret Service. Israeli air security. Gang banger.
Proven it seven more times.
Pistol grip shotguns *ARE* useful in their own way....albeit in a narrow niche, they *ARE* useful in their own way. There are a hundred million pistol grips for shotguns on the market today *because* folks use them. Whether or not they use them to suit you or whether or not there's better guns for the job they do makes no difference. Folks use them.
I have a hundred million facts on my side, bud. You guys have your own personal opinion. I kind of doubt either side is going to influence the other.
rich
RandKL
April 28, 2009, 09:14 PM
Wrong. You must have been asleep during Logics and Geometry. About all that has been proven so far is:
1. Some people like PGO shotguns for the grin factor.
2. PGO shotguns aren't much good for traditional shotgun competitions.
Geometry? Huh?
#1: some folks like them for the compact, heavy firepower aspect as I noted. That note constitutes proof that they aren't "useless". Even one example of a pistol grip shotgun being used is proof that they aren't useless. That's logic. Where geometry factors in, I have no idea.
#2: a straw man argument that has no bearing on the discussion as also noted more than once.
RandKL
April 28, 2009, 09:20 PM
Simple fact is, I like pistol grip shotguns. I can hit my targets all day long. I practiced enough to be able to do so. That's called an "informed opinion". Pistol grip shotguns *do*, in fact, have a use. They might be, in your opinions, lesser qualified than some other weapon to perform a particular function, but that makes no difference. Other weapons are equally or even more so limited in their uses.
I like them. I make them. I use them. Enough said.
richard
Larry Ashcraft
April 28, 2009, 09:24 PM
Geometry? Huh?
Logics and geometry. Everything must be proven. I'm just pointing out that what you are offering are not proofs of anything.
As a debating tactic, well, it might work for a lawyer, but in a high school debating tournament, you would have lost.
or *you* simply suck with pistol grip shotguns and you don't want to admit that you simply have no experience with them.
That's like saying to Lance Armstrong; "Sure, you can ride a bicycle, but I bet you would suck on a unicycle". Its a silly argument.
I like them. I make them. I use them. Enough said.
More power to you. I'm happy you enjoy them, because that's what the shooting sports are all about, having fun.
Coronach
April 28, 2009, 09:40 PM
I actually agree with one point that you're making, or...trying to make: the only way to prove it definitively is to have a bunch of newbies divided randomly between PGO and stocked shotguns, given equal training, and then put througha course of fire to see which does better.
Until we do that, we merely have to go with the facts that no one uses PGO shotguns for any practical purpose besides niche work, no one seems to shoot them particularly well when compared to stocked shotuns (regardless of level of training), and PGO shotguns are completely non-existent in any competitive shooting event, even ones that would be open to them and ones that would seem to play to their alleged strengths.
I'm confident drawing a conclusion from that, but you obviously aren't. This is the internet, you can believe what you want.See, there you go trying to redefine the topic yet again, Bernie. The topic isn't "guns like pictured in posts yadda yadda yadda". The topic is pistol grip shotguns in general.Uh. No. Look at the OP. Look at (I think) every example put forward. Look at the pains taken to define what a PGO (Pistol Grip ONLY) means. We are not talking about fully stocked SGs with a pistol grip, and neither is the OP. If you are, you're arguing the wrong point.The uses of a Barrett .50bmg are more limited....are you pushing to have those done away with, too?Straw man. No one is talking about banning PGOs. We're just saying that PGOs have no practicality outside of their niche, and that the niche in which they operate is vanishingly small.
Mike
RandKL
April 28, 2009, 09:41 PM
That's like saying to Lance Armstrong; "Sure, you can ride a bicycle, but I bet you would suck on a unicycle". Its a silly argument.
Nope. It's more along the lines of Lance Armstrong riding bicycles and then using that experience to try to argue that unicycles are useless".
And I disagree on the debate. I was in the debate club and debate team, hs and college, as you can probably tell ;)
I like them. I make them. I use them. Enough said.
More power to you. I'm happy you enjoy them, because that's what the shooting sports are all about, having fun.
Well, thank you, sir! I appreciate your opinion. I *do* have my fun. One of the reasons I still collect and shoot guns after thirty years.
All the best!
richard
Larry Ashcraft
April 28, 2009, 09:50 PM
Nope. It's more along the lines of Lance Armstrong riding bicycles and then using that experience to try to argue that unicycles are useless".
Point: Rand. ;)
Dave McCracken
April 28, 2009, 10:55 PM
Rand, my sarcastic comment above still stands.
None of the folks touting PGOs ever seem to turn up at the range. If they do not shoot these PGOs, how in the heck do they achieve any reasonable level of proficiency?
I bet it took me 300 rounds through a folder 870 shooting from the hip to get half as good as I was shooting the orthodox way.
Talk's cheap, as is Net claims.
Show me a pile of empties strewn round your ankles and some perforated targets and I'll be more likely to regard your input as worth believing.
And for those that may wonder if I am full of it, I can be found on the line at Prince George's County Trap and Skeet Center near Riverdale, MD most Friday morns around 11. Look for the big old guy with the grin.
BhmBill
April 28, 2009, 11:40 PM
I'll see if I can get pictures of me out shootin the PGO shotty. Luckily, i'm very apt to point shooting, especially from the hip.
Had I known this was gonna become a elitist competition, I wouldn't have shared my mod with you guys
I wish this video was better quality...it's hard to see the clays.
first clay clean hit
second clay broke in the launcher and I hit the biggest chunk that flew
third clay I winged and deflected with the third shot, hit it with the forth and missed the remaining shard with the last shot
This was my first time shooting clays with a PGO and my fourth time shooting clays ever.
If your saying that one cannot become accurate with a pg shotgun, i'll have to disagree. Hell I used to deer hunt in MN with an old man who always fired from the hip and I can't remember ever seeing him miss. 12 guage slug 1 shot 1 kill. I would think one could also do the same with a pg and some practice. I do own one and although I don't enjoy shooting it I can hit a target out to about 30 yards or so. It makes a good truck gun for me cuz it'll work for short range and because I don't like it, it can get beat up.
Leadhead
April 29, 2009, 12:56 AM
One thing I'll add to the discussion is I much prefer a PGO with a shorter barrel the one in the video is a 16 inch and with my custom wood grip I can use a 14 inch barrel....in Canada we don't need an extra piece of paper from the govt for short barreled shotguns as long as the barrel is factory made and the overall length is greater then 26 inches.
Another thing for us canucks is we can't carry revolvers in the woods for bear protection so some choose shorter PGO's as they are less bulky to strap on a backpack when bushwacking....I don't bother with the extra weight as I've seen mostly mellow bears and only met a few grumpy ones in all my time living in bear country.
With bear encounters confidence goes along way and I don't be little anyone that feels the need for a firearm to help boost their confidence...
Leadhead
April 29, 2009, 12:58 AM
Justin
If your saying that one cannot become accurate with a pg shotgun, i'll have to disagree. Hell I used to deer hunt in MN with an old man who always fired from the hip and I can't remember ever seeing him miss. 12 guage slug 1 shot 1 kill. I would think one could also do the same with a pg and some practice.
Ever seen Ol Rufus Hussy (spelling?) with his bean shooter?
That man could hit anything he wanted with a homemade slingshot and random stones......impressive instinctual shooting!
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