Michigan law - regular Joe mailing a pistol to an out of state FFL?


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spystyle
April 22, 2009, 09:21 PM
Michigan law - Can a regular Joe with no FFL mail a pistol to an out of state FFL holder?

*Or* Must he bring the pistol to a gunshop (FFL guy) and pay that guy to mail the pistol to the out of state FFL guy?

Thank you :)
Craig

p.s. I am in Maine but an acquaintance of mine thinks he must pay $50 to a local gunshop to mail a 22lr pistol manufactured in 1911 to an out of state FFL guy. It sounds weird!

Here in Maine any regular Joe can mail guns to FFL / C&R guys out of state.

I wonder if the gunshop has lied to my acquaintance in Michigan?

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Oro
April 22, 2009, 09:44 PM
No, that sounds like their transfer fee. So if that's before postage, he might as well just use FedEx overnight.

These laws are federal, not state-by state when it comes to interstate shipments.

There is a sticky in the handgun forum about shipping firearms, you may want to read that, it covers it in detail.

spystyle
April 22, 2009, 10:13 PM
I knew it !

A scam !

Some dealers are so dishonest :(

I mail guns occasionally and have never spend more than $25

Thanks for clarifying :)

kingpin008
April 22, 2009, 10:36 PM
Just for the sake of clarity, you cannot mail handguns. It's against Federal law, unless you're a FFL.

You can ship handguns.

For your sake, I hope you meant that you ship handguns all the time, as mailing them could get you in some serious trouble if the powers that be found out.

jmr40
April 22, 2009, 10:45 PM
It is my understanding that a FFL can use the postal service to mail any gun. An average Joe may mail a long gun, but not a handgun. In order to ship a handgun you can legally use UPS or Fed-Ex as long as it is going back to the manufacturer or an FFL. It may be cheaper to let a FFL mail it because UPS requires the most expensive overnight deliverey.

This is my understanding of FEDERAL law. Michigan may have other, more stringent laws.

spystyle
April 22, 2009, 11:10 PM
I sent all my guns via USPS but I had a valid C&R at the time, and most of the guns were C&R eligible...

So a regular Joe in Michigan can use UPS to send an old pistol then, right? He doens't need to pay $50 to a greedy dealer right?

nalioth
April 22, 2009, 11:32 PM
In order to ship a handgun you can legally use UPS or Fed-Ex as long as it is going back to the manufacturer or an FFL. It may be cheaper to let a FFL mail it because UPS requires the most expensive overnight deliverey. UPS allows for any legal recipient when shipping any firearm. FedEx sticks to their "recipient must be licensed" policy.

Let's not make up new laws or shippers policies, ok?

jmr40
April 23, 2009, 01:00 AM
Excuse me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that a FFL or the manufacturer was the only legal recepiant of a firearm. If the firearm is being transfered to a recipient in another state would it not have to go through a FFL to be a legal transfer.

Trebor
April 23, 2009, 01:23 AM
Michigan law does not require a firearms shipment to be sent by a FFL dealer.

Federal law of course applies. For a handgun a non-FFL has to "ship" through FedEx or UPS as they can NOT "mail" a handgun through the USPS.

nalioth
April 23, 2009, 02:03 AM
Excuse me if I am wrong, but I was under the impression that a FFL or the manufacturer was the only legal recepiant of a firearm. If the firearm is being transfered to a recipient in another state would it not have to go through a FFL to be a legal transfer.Federal law states that intrastate transfers between legal recipients (non-felon, non-minor, etc) can be made directly unless there are state or local laws saying otherwise (such as in California).

In Texas, I can legally have UPS ship a handgun or rifle directly to another Texas resident with no FFL in between.

Read the laws and shipper policies here: Shipping a gun - THR (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=323555)

NavyLCDR
April 23, 2009, 04:42 AM
The OP specifically asked about shipping to an OUT OF STATE recipient (FFL holder).

UPS allows for any legal recipient when shipping any firearm.

That is the correct UPS written policy, however, their internal policy from their corporate office is that they will only ship to FFLs. I have addressed the discrepancy in their written policy with their actual policy twice with their corporate office and have gotten nowhere. If the local agent knows what the unpublished internal policy is, they will not accept a firearm shipment going to a non-FFL holder (even intrastate) and the corporate office will back them up.

I sent all my guns via USPS but I had a valid C&R at the time, and most of the guns were C&R eligible...

So you committed how many felonies when you sent handguns via USPS on your C&R FFL that weren't C&R eligible?

Oro
April 23, 2009, 05:56 AM
So you committed how many felonies when you sent handguns via USPS on your C&R FFL that weren't C&R eligible?

Actually, I don't believe a C&R allows you to even mail C&R handguns. I believe the rules from the USPS I read say that any modern handgun, has to be mailed by a Dealer, which an 03 is not. Is that how you understand it, NavyLT?

NavyLCDR
April 23, 2009, 08:52 AM
Actually, I don't believe a C&R allows you to even mail C&R handguns. I believe the rules from the USPS I read say that any modern handgun, has to be mailed by a Dealer, which an 03 is not. Is that how you understand it, NavyLT?

Actually, I think you are correct according to the Domestic Mail Manual:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#wp1065404

The FFL requirement applies to all handguns and concealable firearms except antiques (which is completely different than C&Rs), and the FFL requirements does specifically state dealers and manufactures, not collectors.

nalioth
April 23, 2009, 12:30 PM
The OP specifically asked about shipping to an OUT OF STATE recipient (FFL holder).


UPS allows for any legal recipient when shipping any firearm.
That is the correct UPS written policy, however, their internal policy from their corporate office is that they will only ship to FFLs. I have addressed the discrepancy in their written policy with their actual policy twice with their corporate office and have gotten nowhere. If the local agent knows what the unpublished internal policy is, they will not accept a firearm shipment going to a non-FFL holder (even intrastate) and the corporate office will back them up.You are correct. I was just clearing up a small misconception and illuminating federal law for those who weren't familiar with it.

I don't know where you live, but my local UPS hub has shipped everything I've brought them - intrastate to private individuals or interstate to licensees.

mgkdrgn
April 23, 2009, 01:27 PM
Michigan law - Can a regular Joe with no FFL mail a pistol to an out of state FFL holder?

As it is going out of state, Michigan law counts for exactly jack. This is interstate commerce, under Federal jurisdiction.

Also, as we are talking about the "mail", we are again in Federal territory.


Must he bring the pistol to a gunshop (FFL guy) and pay that guy to mail the pistol to the out of state FFL guy?

IF it is to be MAILED, that is the ONLY legal way to ship a handgun. As UPS/FedEX will charge you more than $50 ... it's also the cheapest way, even with the FFL's fees.


Here in Maine any regular Joe can mail guns to FFL / C&R guys out of state.

ONLY if you are MAILING long guns. If you are MAILING handguns, you are committing a felony. The fact you are in Maine, Vermont, Arizona or any other state has nothing to do with it.

spystyle
April 24, 2009, 11:16 AM
Well it took a while but I finally got a response from GunBroker support :

(quote Gunbroker support)

A private seller can only ship a handgun through UPS or Fed Ex Next Day Air. They cannot send it via USPS.

(end quote)

So I guess that's that. Between it and the replies it seems my acquaintance can ship the pistol himself and does not need to send it through a gun shop.

Or he could invest just 30 little bucks and get himself a C&R license!

deadin
April 24, 2009, 12:20 PM
Or he could invest just 30 little bucks and get himself a C&R license!

As stated earlier, when it comes to non-antique (post-1898) handguns, a C&R licensee is no different than the "Average Joe" in the using of the US Postal Service. Mailing has to be FFL01 to FFL01. (Or other classes of FFL other than a FFL03. i.e. manufacturer, gunsmith, etc.)

Another consideration is that some FFL01s will not accept shipments from a non-FFL ( including FFL03s). This seems to be a CYA on their part, but within their rights.

spystyle
April 24, 2009, 09:11 PM
Well it's a little revolver from 1911, I think it could go with a C&R... But anyway. That gun shop was ripping him off. $50 is silly.

kingpin008
April 25, 2009, 05:35 AM
Spystyle - It doesn't matter if it's a revolver from 1911 or a semi-auto from 1932 - you CANNOT ship handguns through the US Mail with an 03 FFL. Period, full stop.

Please understand that we're trying to help you out here. The law is the law, regardless of how silly or unfair it may be.

mgkdrgn
April 25, 2009, 02:38 PM
Well it's a little revolver from 1911, I think it could go with a C&R... But anyway. That gun shop was ripping him off. $50 is silly.

Wait until you find out what UPS or FedEx is going to charge you (ASSUMING, and that is a -big- assumption, that the FFL on the other end will accept a shipment from a non-FFL), the $50 will sound much more reasonable.

spystyle
April 28, 2009, 09:42 AM
Thanks for all the replies :)

Happy shooting :)

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