[outdoorman63]

am starting a list of stores and business St Louis area that are posting no ccw signs..if you see one pleast post or pm me with it..will post the website soon as i get a list going

[chrisinmo]

Great idea. I had hopped that the moccw.org websitre would / will become a clearinghouse of ccw related info for the state. A list of places taht need a reiminder of how much business they arelosing by being anti ccw is a great idea. We can use the info to organize pressure ot the places to use our numbers to our advantage.

[Mithrandir]

have not seen any....so far.....

just rest asured... if Alvin Brooks has anything to say about it..they will go up soon....

As a resident here in KC.,.....I wonder if the signs will go up in all the section 8 housing that surrounds my area....should be very interesting to see if the local gangs can read or abide by the signs (LOL)

[shootist2121]

Well here and about St. Louis...Steak & Shake , Coward's Restuarant will be I'm told by owner (Who will be taking a CCW class). St. Peter's Post office, Vantage Banks...Shop & Save, Schnuck, Dierburg Markets all were to be post but I haven't frequented them since the grocery strike...
St. Charle Walmart on 94. ( But It was missing Sunday)

What I've seen so far.

Be safe.:cool:

[shootist2121]

Oh! I forgot to note in my last post. Businesses that do Post will be assuming responsibility for their customers safety by postiing such signs. Tort law being as such these days.. Maybe you need to remind them..I know I intend to. The big chains local managers are the one's you need to talk to..But don't be a butt head. Be polite and just point out their responsibilities in restricting their customer's ability to defend themselves on their property, including the parking lot..

A lawyer is going tohave fun with this one...

Be safe.

:cool:

[sm]

When you folks in MO get a list, with links and such, post it. Even if the stores are not in my state,or nationwide, we all can send a message. Something about monies not going in till gets peoples attention. I'm in AR, been pushing and doing what I can for you guys...not planing on quitting until this is resolved for sure .
Besides, kinda fun, to see a corp. office change their stance. .:)

[clange]

Oh, dont worry, if this thing becomes law their will be plenty of signs, and plenty of people to email about them.

[zastros]

Shaare Zedek Synagogue and nursery school. (in University City) The lady who runs the school is a friend of mine, so we amicably[ish] butt heads on this issue.

(I swear, if ANYONE in the world should understand self defense, you'd think it would be a synagogue. IMHO, of course)


zastros

[clipse]

Not exactly in St. Louis but on the other side of the state. Nodoway Valley Bank has a sign posted. I even took a picture of it:D . This was in Savannah, MO. I am sure the NVB's in St. Joseph will have this posted as well. This is my bank. I am going to send an email and a letter later this afternoon to let them know I will be pulling my money out and why and also let them know that I will urge everyone I know to do the same since I don't feel secure with my money in a bank that letts the bad guys know they are safe robbing that bank.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid85/pea8d3c1d29dd841c847aa2d35dcd9bcc/fac39102.jpg


clipse

[bogie]

Hey, get a picture of that little sign right above it... If it is like the one at my credit union, it's basically a sheet that sez "Before you enter to rob us, take off your hats, sunglasses, etc."

Pretty silly.

[Andrew Rothman]

Minnesota has a site called www.gunfreezones.com that has a database of posted locations.

I'm pretty sure the webmaster there would be willing to share the server software/site design, or perhaps host a MO version for a pittance. Worth a try, anyway.

Matt

[Werewolf]

In OK the below letter or something similar was very effective in getting those signs removed:

Dear Sir or Madam,

I recently went to your place of business to [insert reason here] and became aware of your no weapons policy.

Please consider the following:

In order to become CCW licensed I had to go through the following screening process. [list the requirements here].

Basically what the above means is that I am a certifed GOOD GUY. For some reason though you have decided to bar GOOD GUYS from your place of business.

By posting a no weapons sign at your business you have accomplished three things.

1) You have provided notice to all criminals that they have absolutely nothing to fear by entering your place of business with criminal intent because you have certified your business as a no gun zone.

2) You have certified to any employee that it would be safe for them to come to work some day and become what has commonly been refered to as postal.

3) You have lost the business of most folks who are CCW licensed because they can get what ever you sell elsewhere from a business that doesn't discriminate against them.

Think about it...

Sincerely
[Your Name Here]

In 1995 when Oklahoma's CCW law was passed the circle/no guns signs were in abundance. A concerted mailing campaign that sent letters from CCW holders like the above to business' with the signs was very effective. Signs like that are rare in Oklahoma City these days and most disappeared within 3 months of the CCW law being passed.

[clipse]

Bogie,

The sign above the no firearms sign is the no hats or sunglasses sign. The local city hall has one too. :banghead: I used to really like my little town.

Mpayne,

I thought I remembered seeing a websight with the same intent. It was posted on a forum board and I have not been able to find it. If I can't find it in the next few days I will wait and see what the injuction banning CCW in MO does and possible set up some type of sight similar to the one you posted. We will see.


clipse

[outdoorman63]

for those who havent seen it here is the address

http://www.geocities.com/outdoorman63@sbcglobal.net/NonCCW_stores.html

[bogie]

P.F. Chang's upscale Chinese restaurant in Chesterfield has a sign.

www.pfchangs.com I think...

And the e-mail...

Had lunch at your Chesterfield (St. Louis) location today with a group from work.

I _really_ liked the Mongolian Beef, and was quite surprised at the reasonable prices on the menu, and the service was beyond excellent, but I won't be back.

At least until you remove the "no concealed weapons" sign from the vestibule. All this sign does is bar lawful permit holders, who are literally certified by law enforcement as being responsible adults with no criminal records, from entry. The sign will do nothing to bar criminals who, being criminals, won't pay attention to it anyway.

I regularly eat out, often oriental cuisine, with friends who live near the restaurant, and we'll likely be driving past your restaurant to others who welcome our business.

Chuck Bogardus
314-920-6860

[MJRW]

Werewolf, may I recommend that something be added to the letter. I think that it should be pointed out to them that if a law prohibiting armed robbery isn't going to stop a criminal, then neither will a sign.

[clipse]

Thanks outdoorman.

Too bad that site is only for the St. Louis area. I wonder if there is one for the entire state of Missouri. I will have to search harder.:)


clipse

[bogie]

Dear Mr. Bogardus,
Thank you for taking the time to give us feedback on your dining experience. I am happy to know you enjoyed your meal and the service. You will be pleased to know that after checking with our legal counsel I found out we are not required to post the signage you saw today. I have removed the sign and hope you will continue to dine at P.F.Chang's. Please do not hesitate to call me if I can ever be of assistance
to you.

Sincerely,
Cindi Taylor
Operating Partner
P.F.Chang's China Bistro
Chesterfield, MO.

[StLGlocker]

Outdoorsman,

I'll send in info on any businesses that put them up. There will probably be a lot more once the law actually goes into effect.

One thing, though - the screaming yellow background is kinda rough on the eyes, especially in the morning. ;)

EDIT: Bogie, WOW, that was fast! Good work!

[fmjcafe]

You can add Steak and Shake to the list...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you for raising your concern regarding the "concealed weapons"
issue in Missouri. We always appreciate hearing from our loyal guests and
we make every effort to fairly address each concern we receive.

As you probably know, in conjunction with the Missouri legislature's
decision to allow private citizens to carry concealed weapons, the
legislature carved out numerous exceptions including a broad exception
allowing businesses "open to the public" to post signs prohibiting
concealed weapons on their premises. After carefully considering whether
to post such signs, we as a company concluded that our concern for the
safety of our guests and employees compelled us to exercise our rights
outlined in the statute and post the signs. We certainly realize the
"right to bear arms" is an undeniable, constitutionally protected right;
unfortunately, as a company charged with providing a safe environment to
our guests and employees, we are forced to consider "worst case" scenarios
and focus on the inevitable reality that some people will abuse their
rights under this statute, perhaps tragically. We cannot allow that risk
to endanger our employees and guests.

I hope you appreciate the consideration we have given to this issue.
We have a sixty-nine year history of serving millions of guests who are
consistently loyal to us. We hope you will continue to be one of our loyal
guests.

Kindest regards

[bogie]

Dude, you said that it's one in Ballwin? Where, perzactly? I may want to dine out sometime this weekend, and am not averse to asking for the manager...

[fmjcafe]

Bogie,
It`s the one in front of Value City on Manchester Road.

[bogie]

Hokayfine - It's ActivistMan swingin' into action!

[outdoorman63]

but doesnt it just jump out at you and make you remember...strength in rememberance as to who is against us....strength in staying together.and strength in educating the nonbelievers...

[bogie]

It makes stuff hard to read.

Bogie
Graphic Designer
B.A. in public relations
Communications geek

[pytron]

Bogie - nice work

Werewolf - I like your approach - simple logic that says - "bad business decision" without screaming about the 2nd. If you don't mind, I'd like to use your letter as a basis for correspondence with WA businesses. Fortunately there are very, very few signs in Washington except at places that are prohibited by law (bars, courthouses).

-Pytron

[clange]

.."You will be pleased to know that after checking with our legal counsel I found out we are not required to post the signage you saw today.."
could simply mean "the law isnt in effect yet, so we dont need signs."

[bogie]

Actually, I'm guessing that what we have at PF Chang's was a case of ignorance. With what I read into it, I'd venture that they thought that since they serve alcohol (in a bar section of the VERY NICE AND REASONABLY PRICED restaurant, they had to post the sign. When they find out that they didn't have to, it's yanked. No problem.

SERIOUSLY. If you live in the St. Louis area, check it out. Good Chinese chow. My order of Mongolian beef cost $10.95, was VERY good sized, etc., and VERY tasty. I'd have spent that much at just about any other similar resturant, for not as much food/quality. VERY good service too.

[clange]

I live right by there (the one by chesterfield mall at least). I'm in rolla now for school, but i'll have to check it out sometime when i'm back home.

[bogie]

More info on the sign at the World News location in Clayton...

I stopped by last night, to buy a couple of magazines.

Queried the fellow behind the counter about the sign. He said that their management put it up because the Clayton police (Clayton is a major "player" in the St. Louis metro municipality structure) told him to. I assume they're also distributing 'em to other businesses. I didn't see any others tho...

So... Here's the address of the Clayton police department.

police@ci.clayton.mo.us

the mayor...

mayor@ci.clayton.mo.us

and the office of economic development...

econdev@ci.clayton.mo.us

=======

Firearms Signs

To whom it may concern:

On Monday night, I stopped at a Clayton business to make a purchase. As I entered, I noticed a "no firearms" sign. When I asked the store's help, they responded that the Clayton police department had furnished the sign and requested that they post it.

Signs like this do nothing to stop crime, and in effect let criminals know that anyone entering the business will be an easy target. After the stuff surrounding section 571.094 is ironed out, Clayton businesses will discover that people who can satisfy the licensing requirements are the sort of customers they wish to have, and that the people who cannot satisfy the requirements are the sort of customers who they wish would never enter their stores.

I will not do business with any store which posts such a sign, and I'm not alone.

I view doing business at a location that displays such a sign as potentially hazardous. I will worry that I'll be seen entering/exiting the establishment by a mugger, a carjacker, or a similar human predator, and marked as potential prey. Been mugged once, didn't even get a t-shirt. Clayton is perceived as a "safe" area of St. Louis, if such a thing exists - please keep it that way.

Signs such as these have surfaced in other states following enaction of concealed carry policies (Missouri is the 45th state to enact such legislation), and they've generally been rapidly removed, as business owners realize that they're useless in protecting their business and customers, and that they seriously alienate a sizable portion of their target market.

Thank you,

Chuck Bogardus
314-920-6860
Live in Dogtown, generally shop in Clayton.

[bogie]

so, hey, I don't wanna be the _only_ person e-mailing 'em, okay?

[clange]

I think many (or at least myself) are waiting to see what the hell happens with the law. If it does take effect i'll be emailing and bitching to managers like crazy, dont worry.

[bogie]

You're missing the point.

WHENEVER one sees a "no guns" sign, that is the time to bitch.

[bogie]

Got a reply... My response is below.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lenore Toser-Aldaz <ltoseraldaz@ci.clayton.mo.us>
Sent: Nov 18, 2003 5:25 PM
To: "'bogie7@mindspring.com'" <bogie7@mindspring.com>
Cc: Frank Kenney <fkenney@ci.clayton.mo.us>
Subject: RE: Firearms Signs

This is in reply to your e-mail message attached below.

First, a point of correction. The City of Clayton Police Department has not
provided "no firearms" signs to anyone nor instructed anyone to post such
signs. I do, however, recall reading that the St. Louis County Sheriff's
Department was considering providing such signs to business owners, so
perhaps that is where this particular business obtained one.

Additionally, the City does not intend to take any action related to
concealed firearms until a decision is reached in the case by the Missouri
Supreme Court. At that point in time, we will take whatever steps we deem
most appropriate to best protect public safety.

Thank you for taking the time to express your concerns.

Sincerely,

Lenore Toser-Aldaz
Acting City Manager

=======

Thanks for your prompt reply. I hope you understand my concern. My roommate and I are worried that criminals could target these businesses and their patrons. We've both lived in other states, and have noticed the benefical effects that concealed carry has had on crime rates, while at the same time noticing that the criminals retarget their activities toward victims who are more likely to be unarmed - for example, auto rental companies doing business in Florida had to stop marking their cars as rentals, since criminals knew that the drivers were considerably less likely to be armed than were Florida residents, and targeted the cars, and drivers, for violent crime.

In fact, the veto override provided my roommate her impetus to move back to Missouri from Illinois, since it is likely that carjackers, sexual predators, etc., may move across the border to commit their crimes when it becomes apparent that their potential victims in Missouri may not be the easy targets that they are currently used to.

We're not paranoid (grin) - just pragmatic.

[bogie]

More info...

http://www.co.st-louis.mo.us/scripts/PD/press/view.cfm?ViewMe=4536

[Kamicosmos]

Haven't been keeping an eye out yet, but as I was cancelling my TV Cable service the Time Warner Cable office in Grandview MO had a no weapons sign. I can't remember if it said all weapons or only concealed weapons. If it wasn't in the middle of a downpour, I may have gone back in and said something, but oh well. they've already lost me as a tv customer. (Still have their cable modem service though....grrrr)

[clange]

You're missing the point.

WHENEVER one sees a "no guns" sign, that is the time to bitch.
Just seems like jumping the gun to me. I dont like talking about laws and such that dont exist, doesnt make sense. Like the guy says in the reply, the real fights wont start until the case is decided.

Additionally, the City does not intend to take any action related to
concealed firearms until a decision is reached in the case by the Missouri
Supreme Court. At that point in time, we will take whatever steps we deem
most appropriate to best protect public safety.

[jimpeel]

Coward's Restuarant How very apropos!

[bogie]

So it's okay for 'em to have a "no guns" sign now, but they should take it down after we get the crap with the lawsuits settled?

Sheesh.

Signs like that are NEVER okay. They're dangerous.

[sch40]

Schnucks, Dierbergs, and Shop'n'Save ?
I had figured Schnucks and Dierbergs would put up signs (Schnucks put $25 thousand to help stop concealed carry -- see here (http://www.moccw.org/opponents.html) ), but Shop'n'Save? That would be one of the few places I would definately carry at around where I live. Oh well :rolleyes:. Why try to use logic when understanding anti-freedom pro-nanny-government folks.

Keep your powder dry and your quills wet, everybody.
-sch40

[clange]

So it's okay for 'em to have a "no guns" sign now, but they should take it down after we get the crap with the lawsuits settled?
No, its ridiculous for them to have signs up before any law takes effect. Its equally ridiculous to complain about their sign regarding a law that doesnt even exist yet.

One thing i wouldnt mind pointing out to them however, is that under the current law the only people carrying (legally) would be police, judges, etc. Their signs are only affecting them, and in reality probably not even them because they most likely think the signs dont apply to them.

[bogie]

Regardless of whether or not 571.094 ever takes affect, I _do not feel comfortable_ patronizing a business with the sign.

Why? Whether or not the law is in effect, predators may still see the business as an "unarmed victim zone," and take action based on that belief.

So I _will_ complain when I see such a sign. I view it as a direct threat to my continued safety.

BTW, the signs currently apply to only police, judges, etc.

[clange]

I never suggested anyone else shouldnt complain. I just dont feel right doing so...yet. If you want to, fine, more power to you. I just dont feel like arguing assuming we'll win. I guess i'm too superstitious.

[bogie]

With each individual sign, it doesn't matter if we win the court case or not - it matters if we can convince the store owner/management that we are NOT the problem at hand... Too many of 'em are essentially fence-sitting sheep, who get told that gangsters will wander through the place toting machineguns. When you explain to 'em just what the licensing process entails, etc., and _who_ the licensed population is, they tend to see differently.

Most "antis" are only "surface antis." They don't understand the issue, so they knee-jerk in what they preceive as a safe direction. They need education.