6.8 SPC II the new end all be all?


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gga357
April 23, 2009, 12:34 PM
If not the 6.8 SPC II that then maybe the new .30 by Remington. Or I could just stick with my .308 POF. But I did read recently about the 6.5 Creedmoor that would fit in the .308 frame. Maybe it's time for a new poll. Or maybe I will just wait to see which endures. (I know I can't wait that long...).

I don't say much about the 6.5 Grendal because I think that will be the Mac/Apple of rounds. Too much proprietary-ness holding it back. Well anyway should I turn this into a poll? I know they are different this is just for fun.

I do want to hear about this new 6.8 SPC II. What is different?

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jerkface11
April 23, 2009, 12:47 PM
.30 RAR you can't beat .300 Savage performance out of an AR15.

rbernie
April 23, 2009, 12:52 PM
SpecII is a revision to the chamber specs for 6.8SPC, to lower peak pressures. It allows 6.8SPC to achieve something closer to (but still not meeting) its original velocity claims.

What is *best* depends on what you want to do.

For hunting in Texas inside of 300 yards - I like 6.8SPC just fine. I also like AR15s in 7.62x39 for the same uses.

For social uses, where hicap magazines are an issue, I prefer either 223 or 6.8SPC.

gvnwst
April 23, 2009, 01:58 PM
Well, you left out the two i like. The .30 PPC (imp 7.62x39) and the 6.5GT. (that is something a few members here worked on as the ultimate combat round (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292713&highlight=ultimate+combat+round))

woof
April 23, 2009, 02:01 PM
I'm very interested in the 6.8spc but not for any semi-auto, rather as an excellent mid-power deer round. It's already available in the Ruger compact bolt action, I'd love to see CZ chamber their carbine for it, and what would really be welcome is a light weight pump action carbine. .270 lite!

Acera
April 23, 2009, 02:15 PM
Hopefully Remington will increase their push for the .30 AR.

This is an attempt to bring a stronger hunting round to a platform that has a less than stellar mid sized game reputation. It will help legitimize the AR as a hunting and sporting gun as a tactic to fend off the AWB folks.

A lot will depend if DPMS, Remington, and Bushmaster (They are all owned by the same company) can get the guns out to the public. They have the industry strength to push this over the wildcats and other rounds that don't have that type of strong backing. Question is when will they be caught up enough to apply this pressure, and will it be to late.

I hope they do and that the .30AR cartridge is accepted and becomes widely available in numerous bullet offerings.

gga357
April 23, 2009, 02:38 PM
gvnwst thanks for the link I will have to read that thread tonight.

Honestly I would like to have them all and the 300 whisper too.

gga357
April 23, 2009, 04:21 PM
rbernie thanks. So it is only a change in the chamber? So it can be loaded hotter but is safe?

Jaws
April 23, 2009, 07:15 PM
7x46mm Murray for me please.:)

Let all AR15's specs/limitations behind and just start clean.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19936

Based on the Czech 7.62x45mm cartridge, necked down to 7mm. Drop in a 120-130 gr. bullet and you get everything needed in a combat cartridge.
The brass can be made from new 7.62x39 brass and looks like Mr. Murray is able to get ready factory made brass:
"I've got factory made 7x46mm brass from Privi Partizan. Their brass is made straight from long 7.62x39 blank cartridge case they make and has the nice thick Russian rim, I want."

We passed by the seven by fourty plus millimeters twice. First time we got too powerfull cartridge for small arms, second time we went the exactly opposite, choosing the smallest cartridge we could get away with.

BamaBob
April 23, 2009, 07:41 PM
I do not reload or read ballistics tables for fun so my opinion my not be highly regarded. I have read about the 6.8 spc and the 30. rem which are my choices in that order. The 6.8 seems like it would be a great choice that will fall in to place with our current weapon systems and highly desired by our troops o the ground. The .30 I would like to know more about if anybody would like to educate me. All I know about it now is that it is similar to 30-30 win. Also what about the grendel I don’t like it but I can’t explain why may be just cause it looks funny to me. All that said please be nice I admit that I am a novice.

Thanks Robert

Acera
April 23, 2009, 07:44 PM
BamaBob, here you go.

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2008/10/15/remington-introduces-new-30-remington-ar-cartridge/

benzy2
April 23, 2009, 07:45 PM
Take that grendel, neck it down to 6mm, and you have my choice. Pushing similar velocities as the 5.56 with much better BC. Makes for a hell of a round. Uses 6.5 mags. Seems like a great round to me.

BamaBob
April 23, 2009, 07:48 PM
Thanks Acera looking now.

UnTainted
April 23, 2009, 08:00 PM
I don't own my 6.8 upper yet, but I own lots of 6.8 mags (in case of ban) and my 223 lowers, so I think I'm set for a bit.

Vicious-Peanut
April 23, 2009, 08:20 PM
I <3 the 6.5 Creedmoor.

rangerruck
April 24, 2009, 01:48 AM
now then, I voted for the Grendel, but if remmy starst pushing the wonder effects, and usage of the 30.ar, which does all that it does, within the ar15 envelope, including the mags, then I would gladly go this way.

for those who don't know, the 30.ar is basically a 223 short case, straigt walled, with a 30 cal bullet in it, at about 110 to 120 grains. that would be some sweet action out to 300 yds.
and for close up work, a great door/wall penetrator, if the zombies are coming.

gga357
April 24, 2009, 01:50 AM
Good thinking UnTanted

benzy2
April 24, 2009, 01:53 AM
What's the difference between the .300 whisper and the .30 RAR?

jerkface11
April 24, 2009, 02:30 AM
.30 RAR has close to .308 ballistics. .300 whisper is about like 7.62x39

R.W.Dale
April 24, 2009, 08:48 AM
See the sig links for details on my favorite.

I'm killing critters with a 7.62x39 at ranges that most 6.X ers would love to be able to claim.

If building sumpin from the ground up you could go with something like this
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5384356#post5384356
30PPC Largo




for those who don't know, the 30.ar is basically a 223 short case, straigt walled, with a 30 cal bullet in it, at about 110 to 120 grains. that would be some sweet action out to 300 yds.

Misinformation seems to be your thing, I'll fix this for ya too

for those who don't know, the 30.ar is basically a non rebated .284win short case, straight walled, with a 30 cal bullet in it, at about 110 to 120 grains. that would be some sweet action out to 300 yds.

cracked junior
April 24, 2009, 11:55 AM
I voted 6.8mm spc.

The spec II thing is wierd. but basicly its a higher pressure thing. something to do with the headspace/ lands being different then a normal chamber. some ammo you find has a warning on it that must be fired in a spec II chamber

I have a rock river arms 6.8mm spc ar. I like it. ammo is hard to find but it got me into reloading. 20 dollars for a 20 round box. I think im gonna try deer hunting with it.

Deer Hunter
April 24, 2009, 12:27 PM
What are these used for?

Hunting deer? You wont be able to tell the difference in wound channels methinks.

Long range shooting?

Color?

Taste?

Pretty names?

gvnwst
April 24, 2009, 12:42 PM
See, my thing against the .30 RAR, the .30PPC should (going off of quickload data here) be at the same, if not higher velocitys with the same bullets. With more mag capacity, and the smaller bolt can theortically be stronger. Just need to make a bolt to work with the carriers modified for the WSSM cartridges. Plenty more bolt space to work with this way:
http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/guns1/gund.jpg
That way, you could jack pressures up pretty high, and get some pretty insane performance from the AR.

JImbothefiveth
April 24, 2009, 12:45 PM
I don't see why you'd use .458 socom. I though they went away from the .308 for a reason.

gga357
April 24, 2009, 01:16 PM
From Wikipedia.

The .300 Whisper (also known as .300 Fireball or .300-221) is a wildcat cartridge in the Whisper family, a group of cartridges developed in the early 1990s by J.D. Jones of SSK Industries. It was developed as a multi-purpose cartridge, capable of utilizing relatively lightweight bullets at supersonic velocities as well as heavier bullets (200–250 grains) at subsonic velocities.

The .300 Whisper was originally based on the .221 Fireball case necked up to .30 caliber. However, avid reloaders have found the .223 Remington or 5.56×45 mm NATO works well when shortened and resized to .30 caliber. Firing in the .300 Whisper chamber results in a slightly sharper shoulder. Magnum pistol powders such as H110 work well for subsonic loads. Sierra 240 grain (16 g) jacketed bullets work well if the barrel has a 1:8 twist. Barrels with a 1:10 twist will stabilize 220 grain (14 g) bullets at subsonic speeds. 125 grain (8 g) bullets will reach 2400 ft/s (730 m/s).

There are a few points to be considered regarding the utility of the .300 Whisper:

Supersonic loads are capable of matching ballistics of the 7.62x39mm and the .30-30 Winchester, making the .300 Whisper very capable as a short range deer hunting cartridge.
The use of heavy bullets, along with the low powder weight and small case capacity, make the .300 Whisper ideal for use with sound suppressors. These subsonic loads offer energy levels similar to that of the popular .45 ACP pistol cartridge, but range is substantially increased due to the longer, more efficient .30 caliber bullet.

gga357
April 24, 2009, 01:17 PM
Also from Wikipedia:

The .458 SOCOM is a relatively large round designed for a specialized upper receiver that can be mounted on any AR-15 pattern rifle. The 300-grain (19 g) round offers a muzzle velocity 1,900 ft/s (580 m/s) and a respectable 2,405 ft·lbf (3,261 J). [1] In many respects, it is similar to the venerable .45-70 Government.



This would just be fun!

gvnwst
April 24, 2009, 01:22 PM
This would just be fun!


And HURT after a lot of shooting.:D

You read through the UCR thread? If so, whatcha think? (i want one, but i can't even afford a new upper for my AR)

gga357
April 24, 2009, 02:33 PM
I would not want to shoot the .458 SOCOM all day!!

I did start the thread... I have to admit I have not read the whole thread yet. Lot's of great info. The problem with great boards like these is that my wish list only gets bigger as I read about new ideas and experiences.

gvnwst
April 24, 2009, 02:54 PM
I found it! For some reason, i thought it was about page 6, but that was the first time the idea came up....post #492 on this page has Guntech showing his handiwork:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292713&highlight=ultimate+combat+round&page=20
He shows the quickload data on several pages, i will see if i can find a post with it all in there.

gga357
April 24, 2009, 04:50 PM
This one?

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292713&highlight=ultimate+combat+round&page=4

Sound very cool. The 144gr seems like it would have plenty of potential.

gvnwst
April 24, 2009, 05:18 PM
Yeah, thats the one. IIRC, some later testing he did showed that you can get 2700+ fps with 140gr class bullets, at 55k psi. That would be pretty much ideal, no?

gga357
April 24, 2009, 07:43 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but the OAL ended up being too long for the AR15 correct?

gvnwst
April 24, 2009, 07:55 PM
Yeah. The idea was not to look for what could be used in the AR-15, but soemthing smaller than a AR-10. The OAL is 2.5" IIRC; and Nolo "designed" a rifle around that. (the Talon he posted there, i don't remember which page)

Float Pilot
April 24, 2009, 08:30 PM
I have been testing the 6.8mm SPC for Alaskan use for the last few 6 months now. I have handloaded and fired about 1,200 rounds, as well as fired about 150 rounds of factory loads. I keep all the brass form my experiments seperate and I use two chronographs in tandem for velocity testing.

I have been able to consistently load accurate ammunition for the 6.8mm which falls into the power range appropriate for anti-personnel use and light game.

90 grain (270 caliber) Sierra Hollow Points at 2,895 fps from a 16 inch barrel and 3,000 fps from a 20 inch barrel.

110 grain Sierra soft points, Nosler 110 grain boat-tails and Horady Boat tails loaded to 2,550 fps from a 16 inch barrel and 2,645fps from a 20 inch barrel.

130 grain Sierras to 2,230 fps from a 16 inch and 2,310 from a 20 inch.

I even loaded some 150 grain round nose bullets to 1,950 fps from the 16 inch barrel and had to single load them. They actually shot a 1.5 inch group at 100 yards.

All the factory loads were 100 fps slower than advertised. And not nearly as accurate as my handloads. The factory ammo seeming to avergae about 2.5 inch groups while my best handloads are 0.50 to 0.75 nch average at the same distance. Some handloads group even better.

The case size, which is restricted by the action size, means all these loads are top end and showing a good deal of pressure. Basically there is no room for improvement other than imaginery.

Hunting:

The problem is that here in Alaska, the only (four legged) game animals of the proper size for this cartridge are Sitka Black Tail Deer and Caribou. Both of which happen to live in areas with rather large Brown Bears. That is why many folks up here like the 458 SOCOM or 50 Grendel.

So maybe a winter (bears asleep) Caribou hunt would work with the 6.8mm SPC, but caribou are not as easy to kill as some folks would like to think.

Island deer hunts would be asking for trouble since the 6.8mm SPC is marginal for anything over 250 pounds, much less a half ton of grizzley who takes a liking to your smell.

I even though about Mountain Goats since they are not all that heavy. They too are rather hard to put down with marginal calibers and most shots I have taken over the last 40 years of shooting have been fairly long.


All in all the 6.8mm SPC is ok for anything up to about 250 pounds within 300 yards.

gga357
April 27, 2009, 12:58 PM
gvnwst,

Was wondering if there was talk about magazine capacity of the 6.5GT because it is a somewhat blown out case correct?

gvnwst
April 27, 2009, 01:01 PM
gvnwst,

I was wondering if there was talk about the magazine capacity of the 6.5GT, because it is a somewhat blown out case correct?

If i fixed that correctly, i really don't remember. I can ask Nolo though. Really, just think of the 7.62x39 or any case based off of it, they will have the same capacity for the same length (top to bottom) mag, the 6.5GTs will just have a longer body. (front to back)

I can't remember about blowing out either, but all that would do is reduce the curve of the mag, wouldn't effect capacity at all I would think.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 27, 2009, 01:03 PM
Is the 6.8 SPC II the end-all, be all,

FOR THE WORLD MILITARIES USING AN M16 PLATFORM WHO NEED TO SAVE MONEY BY RETROFITTING CURRENT RIFLES WITH A DIFFERENT BARREL & MAG, AND REQUIRE A RIFLE CONTROLLABLE IN FULL AUTO, OR FOR CITIZENS WHO HAVE ALREADY SHELLED OUT A BUNDLE FOR A REGISTERED M16 LOWER?

Yeah, probably. The tapered case is more reliable than the grendel round and the caliber tradeoff is about right (though a true 6.5 would be better). Either that or the hypothetical 6.5 GT - THR - Nolo, as mentioned/discussed.

Now, the more important question perhaps is, Is it the end-all, be-all for YOU and ME? No, it's not BAD by any stretch, but no I don't think the tradeoffs are correct anymore. For the masses, without registered M16/M4 lowers, I'm liking a lightweight AR10 type chambered in .243 win, .25 Durham Jet, or .260 Rem as the ultimate do-it-all rifle where full-auto controllability and use of existing platforms are not issues - i.e. for YOU and ME. Go here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5537483&postcount=20

gga357
April 27, 2009, 04:34 PM
chambered in .243 win, .25 Durham Jet, or .260 Rem as

Dr. Tad,

One of my conciderations is SBR. I would SBR the 6.8spc but don't hitnk I would SBR a .308 based round.

Until your post I never hear any thing about the 1/4 inchers. Why is that?

gvnwst
April 27, 2009, 04:48 PM
Personally, if i were going SBR, i would not choose 6.8 or 6.5grendel, i would go with a .30 whisper or a 7.62x39 upper. Those calibers are better suited to short barrels, expically if you cook up some subsonic loads.

gga357
April 27, 2009, 04:50 PM
Yeah I have been thinking .300 whisper but then I would HAVE TO get a can too. $400 in tax dollars. Ouch.

gvnwst
April 27, 2009, 04:55 PM
I have heard that sticking a tennis ball over the muzzle (cut a slot in one end or something) works really well...:p No taxes that way. :neener:

gga357
April 27, 2009, 06:21 PM
I thought it was a 2 liter plastic bottle? :rolleyes:

gvnwst
April 27, 2009, 06:49 PM
Well, that works too, but you need to fill it with steel wool that way. :D

gvnwst
April 27, 2009, 08:02 PM
I got some more info from Nolo, so:Was wondering if there was talk about magazine capacity of the 6.5GT because it is a somewhat blown out case correct?
The case was blown out a bit from the first version, but the taper is equal to or less than the 5.56.
http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=3599538&postcount=78
The talon rifle he has pictured in the thread has a mag for 20 rounds on it, but a 30 round would be standard. (he just couldn't draw it.)

gga357
April 28, 2009, 03:06 PM
chambered in .243 win, .25 Durham Jet, or .260 Rem as

Dr. Tad,

One of my conciderations is SBR. I would SBR the 6.8spc but don't hitnk I would SBR a .308 based round.

Until your post I never hear any thing about the 1/4 inchers. Why is that?

Eric F
April 28, 2009, 04:01 PM
Reming already went through this in the early to mid 1900's with the original 30 remington.

All based on the same case and aparently still is.

30 remington-aka 30-30 remington
then came the 25 and 32 remington both necked down or up version of the 30 remington.

only the 30 remington stuck around for almost 100 years then came the 6.8spc a necked down shortened version of the 30 remington now the 6.8II and now the 30 remington ar.

Why are they continously re inventing the wheel? They are making the same misteak they mad 50 or so years ago. Trying to market to every one for everything based on the same base round and ultimately an excuse to make more guns that in 20 or less years no one will beable to find the ammo for.

Seems pretty pointless. Why not just go back to the origional 30 remington design which worked well for 100 years and build an ar around that?

Eyesac
April 28, 2009, 04:07 PM
I've never shot any of those in an AR, but I'd love a .458...

gga357
April 28, 2009, 04:15 PM
Eric I just started a new thread about .25s if you want to chim in there I think this one has about had it.

R.W.Dale
April 28, 2009, 04:22 PM
Seems pretty pointless. Why not just go back to the origional 30 remington design which worked well for 100 years and build an ar around that?

Try to cram a 30 remington cartridge in an AR 15 magwell and you'll have your answer

Eric F
April 28, 2009, 04:34 PM
Try to cram a 30 remington cartridge in an AR 15 magwell and you'll have your answer

Well they did it with a 308! duh!:banghead: Ok that was a joke but they did, thats why I said build an Ar around the old 30 remington.

People gripe and moan about the 30 carbine and if you liik at the remington site for ballistics the 30 remington ar looks about the same so I dont see as to where they are getting anything here. Come on 15 grains more and roughly 100-200 fps faster. I am willing to bet you can load a similar bullet into a 30 carbine and get the same. I loaded 110 up to 2300 fps before.

Why not build a 30 carbine ar?

R.W.Dale
April 28, 2009, 04:40 PM
People gripe and moan about the 30 carbine and if you liik at the remington site for ballistics the 30 remington ar looks about the same so I dont see as to where they are getting anything here. Come on 15 grains more and roughly 100-200 fps faster. I am willing to bet you can load a similar bullet into a 30 carbine and get the same. I loaded 110 up to 2300 fps before.

Why not build a 30 carbine ar?


OK first off the velocity quoted on Remingtons webpage is INCORRECT (fire ID dpt TOMORROW)
I'll bet they put up the energy figures instead of velocity

the 30 RAR gets just short of 2800 fps in the rifle tested in this months shooting times, This blows 30 carbine out of the water and is in an entirely different league (900fps faster) from the carbines handgun wannabee rifle round



Well they did it with a 308! duh!:banghead: Ok that was a joke but they did, thats why I said build an Ar around the old 30 remington.

Secondly nobody has done a 308 ar15 to do a .308 AR it requires a much heavier and larger ar 10 platform DUH!:banghead: Calling the two the same is like calling an M1A and a Ruger mini the same

Yellowfin
April 28, 2009, 04:47 PM
I'm looking at this as a possible deer rifle for future kids, so either Grendel or SPC will do. Low recoil and a light platform with collapsable stock (and a 5 round mag for legal conformity) will make for a perfect deer rifle for an 8 to 10 year old. I'm wondering if this will work itself out so there will be mass production of ammo to knock the prices down a bit.

Eric F
April 28, 2009, 04:50 PM
Secondly nobody has done a 308 ar15 thats why I said build an Ar around the old 30 remington. Either way how am I to know what the ballistics really are when the parent company cant even get it right? If thats the case then again why not build an AR around the origional round? They got in the habit of building short action rounds for short action guns why not do the same for the ar's? They have the short action buils a long action.

I am really not trying to argue here there has been a bit of mis comunication.

And they are repeating themselves from the model 8 years IMO.

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